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View Full Version : Got stopped by a Ranger out in Jacumba


MysteryCereal
02-10-2007, 7:53 PM
So a couple of friends and I decided to go shooting out in Jacumba. It was my first time going out there, so I was kind of nervous as to what kind of hassle I might because of my "evil" looking rifle. So I decided to carry along some paper work (Penal Code and CCR pertaining to OLL’s) to show whatever uninformed LEO that might give me trouble.

When we first got there, I noticed a few Border Patrol trucks going back and forth. I thought it would be a pretty uneventful day (since we all are US citizens :-p) so I decided to try some bump-firing. I let off a couple of bursts and was quite content with my rifle. Then I saw the Park Ranger truck coming towards us. As he was coming towards us, I double-checked to make sure my Prince50 was nice and tight, magazine couldn’t be pulled out, and put all my weapons in the truck bed. I just KNEW he was going to give me problems about my rifle. So he gets out and tells us all to step away from our weapons. The first question out of his mouth was, "Do you guys have any fully automatic weapons?" We informed him that we did not and then he told us he was going to perform a “Weapons Inspection Check”. As he looks around and tries to decide where to start (we had about 7 or so rifles laid out and 6 handguns), he see's my evil rifle and immediately walks towards it and asks who the owner was. When I told him it was mine, he asked me, "Is it registered to you?" Well of course it isn't, it’s not an assault weapon!! I didn't say that though, since I value my purdy little face and didn’t want to go home with baton marks. I did tell him I had all the paper work right under the rifle in the rifle case and asked if it would be alright for me to step towards it and show him. He said, "Go ahead. I'm not worried, I've got plenty of eyes on us." I almost laughed in his face at that not so veiled threat. After I handed him my little stack of papers, I think he felt inundated with all of it because after a minute or so of him staring blankly at the copy of the penal code I gave him, he said everything was fine. He thanked me for having my paperwork because otherwise I wouldn't have a rifle. I wanted to stand there and explain to him that even if I did not have a copy of my DROS and such, he would have no real right or reason to take away my weapon, but I didn't feel like getting tazered in front of my friends.

Long story short, always carry some paperwork. Even if they don't know what they are reading, they might just get scared that you know more about laws then they do.

edog11
02-10-2007, 8:05 PM
Well good thing you had your paperwork but the sad thing you shouldnt need to carry the papers with you. Thanks for the heads up .I will need to get a copy for myself

Geoman
02-10-2007, 8:16 PM
This is interesting, I'm glad everything went okay for you. I find it amusing that for the accused ignorance of the law is no excuse, but the ignorance of the law for the accuser is okay. Something for all of us to think about next time we sit on a jury and are instructed by some lame judge to convict some poor slob who didn’t know the law.

naimad
02-10-2007, 8:19 PM
I shoot out there all the time ive been rousted by the rangers a few times not with my oll yet, what paperwork did you have with you it would be good to know.I heard some guys were up there a while back and got rousted by the feds im still trying to get more details on this i will post more:mad:

aileron
02-10-2007, 8:34 PM
Hey, my dros just says I bought a long gun, how is that suppose to tie back to my OLL? Other than having a copy of the penal code, I dont see how this is going to keep one out of trouble. I could choose any long gun dros and say, yup see I bought it.

VeryCoolCat
02-10-2007, 8:37 PM
I wonder what would have happened if he asked you for your papers you pulled out a roll of toilet paper :p

MysteryCereal
02-10-2007, 8:39 PM
I brought with me a copy of my DROS, copy of my reciept from the local FFL who did the transfer, a copy of my reciept from Cold War Shooters where I bought my RRA lower and a copy of both Penal Code 12276.1 and California Code of Regulation Title 11/Division 5/Chapter 39/Article 2/§ 5469. (DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS) Granted the DROS doesn't show a serial number for the lower, but it does show a date, which matches my reciept's which do have the serial number. Of course none of that is concrete evidence I purchased the lower, it was enough to get me out of trouble. Haha.

MysteryCereal
02-10-2007, 8:41 PM
I wonder what would have happened if he asked you for your papers you pulled out a roll of toilet paper :p

HAHAHA

FreedomIsNotFree
02-10-2007, 8:49 PM
I wonder what would have happened if he asked you for your papers you pulled out a roll of toilet paper :p


Better yet...what if he pulled out his Zig-Zags?....:eek:

Pthfndr
02-10-2007, 9:30 PM
First off, glad to hear everything went in your favor. But....

A LEO hear's what could possibly be full auto fire, takes appropriate precautions since legal FA would be extremely rare in CA, and checks the AR type first. Which was the one he saw that he thought would be most likely to be FA.

Checks the paper work you offered up, and was SMART ENOUGH to know you were legal.

Sounds like one of the good guys to me.

So why do you write up your experience like he was not so bright? Had there been even the slightest doubt in his mind I quarantee you he would take your rifle and let the court / DA settle things. He apparently knew at least a little something about OLLs, and upon seeing your rifle and paperwork knew it for what it was.

Plus...

I just KNEW he was going to give me problems about my rifle.

It doesn't sound like he gave you any problems about the rifle. So much for what you know, eh?

slick_711
02-10-2007, 9:36 PM
I was gonna go out there tomorrow but now I'm going to shoot trap & skeet. Oh well, soon anyway. I've never had an issue out there, and am fairly versed on my legal rights and OLL BS, so I don't expect any issues. Good on you for being prepared though, and as Pthfndr said, it seems you encountered "one of the good guys," which is reassuring. Although I do believe there are more good than bad, just too many unsure or lacking information in the middle.

hoffmang
02-10-2007, 9:41 PM
I cry BS. I think the LEO was hit with a pile of paper - realized it was penal code - and decided he didn't care to try to remember what AW registration paperwork looks like.

-Gene

MysteryCereal
02-10-2007, 9:46 PM
First off, glad to hear everything went in your favor. But....

A LEO hear's what could possibly be full auto fire, takes appropriate precautions since legal FA would be extremely rare in CA, and checks the AR type first. Which was the one he saw that he thought would be most likely to be FA.

Checks the paper work you offered up, and was SMART ENOUGH to know you were legal.

Sounds like one of the good guys to me.

So why do you write up your experience like he was not so bright? Had there been even the slightest doubt in his mind I quarantee you he would take your rifle and let the court / DA settle things. He apparently knew at least a little something about OLLs, and upon seeing your rifle and paperwork knew it for what it was.

Plus...



It doesn't sound like he gave you any problems about the rifle. So much for what you know, eh?


Maybe you didn't read the part about how he would have taken my rifle if I had not had some useless papers around. Doesn't seem so bright to me. Had he had any idea what an OLL was, he would not have made such a comment. I believe his exact words were, "You should see how many guns I have to take away because they don't have the proper paperwork". Well if my DROS that has no serial on it is proper paperwork. He can't be that bright.

anonymous
02-10-2007, 10:04 PM
I hate to always be the bearer of common sense, but I think the real moral of the story is not to make your gun act like a full auto in a place swarming with federal agents. Can you blame them for doing their job? He doesn't care if you have an assault weapon because thats State law. Thats why he asked you if you had any machine guns, not if you have any assault weapons.

You stuck up a big sign that said "I have a full auto" when you bump fired it. And by your own admission, you purposefully tried to build the most evil looking M4 clone you could. So I don't understand how you can fault this guy for checking you out.

Guys, BUMP FIRE NEXT TO LEO = STUPID.

MysteryCereal
02-10-2007, 10:38 PM
Whoa whoa whoa you're missing the point. I don't mind him asking questions. Hey that's his job and I'm cool with it. I love showing my evil rifle off to all the LEO's I work with. What I have a problem with is the fact that if I didn't have a copy of the penal code with me and the receipts of when I bought it. I wouldn't have the rifle anymore. My beef isn't with the inspection, it's with the possible outcome that I seemed to have averted. Did I not make that clear enough?

MysteryCereal
02-10-2007, 10:46 PM
you purposefully tried to build the most evil looking M4 clone you could.

You better believe I did.

BUMP FIRE NEXT TO LEO

You better believe I will. Last time I checked, everything I did was legal. Why should I have to fear that my rifles will be taken away if I stay on the right side of the law. If I could do it all over I would. Aren't we suppose to be testing the limits of these ridiculous laws? I think everyone should bump fire around LEO's. Maybe more people would understand that whatever stupid laws they make, people will find a way around.

MysteryCereal
02-10-2007, 11:14 PM
He looked at your "papers" then left? I really don't think your "papers" got him to leave. Didn't he check your rifle for illegal auto parts. I would say you were just being looked at and the officer saw no problems and left.

He picked up my AR and (I believe) looked at the model and if there was an auto-sear hole.

bg
02-10-2007, 11:22 PM
Ya know it's a sad day when one has to be leery of the cops
as well as the criminals..

Mssr. Eleganté
02-11-2007, 12:54 AM
It sounds to me more like you used The Force on that guy. "These aren't the droids your looking for."

A cop who says he would have taken your property if you hadn't shown him your proper paperwork, and then acts like printed exerpts from the Penal Code are your "proper paperwork", doesn't really know what's going on. In effect he said "If you hadn't told me how to do my job I would have taken your rifles" which I'm sure he didn't mean to say.

Basically you tricked him into accidentally following the law.

Mssr. Eleganté
02-11-2007, 12:59 AM
Guys, EXERCISE YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS NEXT TO LEO = STUPID.

Fixed it for you. :rolleyes:

The SoCal Gunner
02-11-2007, 1:02 AM
Guys, BUMP FIRE NEXT TO LEO = STUPID.

When bumpfiring becomes illegal you maybe right, but the way the ranger treated the guy was wrong. Threats because of the ranger's ignorance can cause a lot of headache.

If the ranger was actually at his side and saw him bumpfire, there probably wouldn't be any issue or threats.

PanzerAce
02-11-2007, 1:02 AM
Sounds like I am going to have to start printing out a bunch of stacks of penal codes and CCRs to show to people. Im just glad that I shoot at a private range...

The SoCal Gunner
02-11-2007, 1:03 AM
Fixed it for you. :rolleyes:

You beat me to it. I was thinking the same thing.

Crazed_SS
02-11-2007, 2:48 AM
Whoa whoa whoa you're missing the point. I don't mind him asking questions. Hey that's his job and I'm cool with it. I love showing my evil rifle off to all the LEO's I work with. What I have a problem with is the fact that if I didn't have a copy of the penal code with me and the receipts of when I bought it. I wouldn't have the rifle anymore. My beef isn't with the inspection, it's with the possible outcome that I seemed to have averted. Did I not make that clear enough?

What they hell was the LEO supposed to think if he hears full auto fire? Because that's exactly what bumpfiring sounds like.

This is like if I went outside and decided to sell baggies of baking soda on the corner and then got all pissy when a cop confronts me about selling cocaine.. and then I bust out a bunch of papers telling him how it's legal to sell baking soda.

Bumpfiring is a waste of ammo anyway.

MysteryCereal
02-11-2007, 3:43 AM
What they hell was the LEO supposed to think if he hears full auto fire? Because that's exactly what bumpfiring sounds like.

This is like if I went outside and decided to sell baggies of baking soda on the corner and then got all pissy when a cop confronts me about selling cocaine.. and then I bust out a bunch of papers telling him how it's legal to sell baking soda.

Bumpfiring is a waste of ammo anyway.

Did you not read my post, my problem isn't with him checking out my weapon, just his idle threat that it would have been taken away had I not had paperwork. So using your own metaphor, the police officers investigating your baking soda sales would tell you that had you not had papers in your hand proving otherwise, they would have confiscated your baking soda and brought down your whole bakery ring.

Nefarious
02-11-2007, 6:15 AM
Did you not read my post, my problem isn't with him checking out my weapon, just his idle threat that it would have been taken away had I not had paperwork. So using your own metaphor, the police officers investigating your baking soda sales would tell you that had you not had papers in your hand proving otherwise, they would have confiscated your baking soda and brought down your whole bakery ring.

LMAO!!
I normally go shoot out in Jacumba and have had the BP stop by us just once.

My GF and I got there at the *** crack of the morning for some strange reason - had to sit there for a while before the sun came out :D. Anywho after the sun did rise and after shooting for a while.. the BP drove up and casually stolled and said "man you guys were here early" .. I cracked a joke and said something along the lines of "yea, you guys probably thought we were picking up some illegals" they laughed and looked over at the weapons. Riflewise I only had my SU16 (mag was out at that time) and the SKS. One of the BP was Mexican (im Half Mexican) and he seemed to do the most talking.. he was friendly and seemed to really like the SKS. After some chit chat back and forth - the other BP agent looks at the SU16 and .. well.. said something like "ohh that ones ok becuase no pistol grip" I dont know if he was asking it like a question, or saying it like he was unsure. Either way they left and that was that.

Matt C
02-11-2007, 7:03 AM
I don't carry any paperwork. To hell with em if they can't know/learn they law they are trying to enforce. Of course, I am happy to politely explain it to them, but again if don't want to listen, they can go play in traffic.

kap
02-11-2007, 9:02 AM
I love the story. Give the BP an intimidating stack of official looking papers and you are good to go.

I carry information to give to fellow shooters who ask me about OLLs.

Penal code sections
Proper OLL configurations
Calguns.net
Local FFL dealers who sell OLLs
CaliforniaRifles.com (since everyone starts by asking about the U15 I have)

If I just rattle off the information they will not remember most of it and likely not follow through. I figure if I give them a nice set of written information they can follow up the details and build a properly configured OLL. People process information better depending on the way it is presented so I think it is appropriate and necessary if I want to effectively encourage people to carry through with their interest. If the same information helps me out during an encounter with a police officer then the information serves a dual purpose.

Stuka
02-11-2007, 9:25 AM
When bumpfiring becomes illegal you maybe right, but the way the ranger treated the guy was wrong. Threats because of the ranger's ignorance can cause a lot of headache.

If the ranger was actually at his side and saw him bumpfire, there probably wouldn't be any issue or threats.

I could have sworn someplace on the DOJ's website it says that using a device (such as a belt) to make a semi auto weapon operate as a fully automatic weapon was indeed illegal.

Matt C
02-11-2007, 9:34 AM
I could have sworn someplace on the DOJ's website it says that using a device (such as a belt) to make a semi auto weapon operate as a fully automatic weapon was indeed illegal.


I better surrender my thumb and index finger to the proper authorities then.:eek:

jnojr
02-11-2007, 10:00 AM
I don't carry any paperwork. To hell with em if they can't know/learn they law they are trying to enforce. Of course, I am happy to politely explain it to them, but again if don't want to listen, they can go play in traffic.

The problem is, they won't "go play in traffic". They'll arrest you and confiscate your rifle. The fact that you aren't breaking any laws means nothing. The legal system will grind you up and spit you out the other side, and guess what? Nothing will be done to the cops who wrongly arrested you. Best case, you'll wait weeks or months to get your rifle back, after paying fees and filling out forms. Worst case, they'll tell you no, you don't get it back, go get a court order if you want.

Omega13device
02-11-2007, 11:10 AM
Did you not read my post, my problem isn't with him checking out my weapon, just his idle threat that it would have been taken away had I not had paperwork. So using your own metaphor, the police officers investigating your baking soda sales would tell you that had you not had papers in your hand proving otherwise, they would have confiscated your baking soda and brought down your whole bakery ring.
I think you were smart to bring all your papers with you and act so politely with the LEO. I'm sure he appreciated it. At the same time, if he's within his rights to take your weapon, then it's a statement of fact and not a threat. As much as you don't like it, that's the way it is. Suck it up, that's how life goes sometimes.

SnWnMe
02-11-2007, 11:45 AM
Plenty of eyes on us.... You wouldn't have a rifle.

Despite all your "by the numbers" actions, he saw it fit to be the little arrogant *****.

If he had you tagged as a BG he would not approach you alone. He just wanted to play cop where no crime is being committed.

Of course, bump firing set the whole thing in motion also.

Matt C
02-11-2007, 11:47 AM
The problem is, they won't "go play in traffic". They'll arrest you and confiscate your rifle. The fact that you aren't breaking any laws means nothing.

Will they? I'd like to see them try an unlawful arrest on me, I really, really would.

Crazed_SS
02-11-2007, 12:24 PM
Will they? I'd like to see them try an unlawful arrest on me, I really, really would.

lol.. what are you gonna do, fight a cop? Good luck with that.
We'll be hearing about you on the evening news.

It'll say something to the effect of a "routine traffic stop turned violent as a delusional man armed with a deadly military-style assault-rifle was subdued by police tonight" ..

We'll then see a soundbite of a cop saying something like, "We're just happy the officers were able to neutralize the suspect before he could reach his weapon. Weapons like these are banned in California as they are made to kill large numbers of people and will penetrate police body armor. Our issue sidearms are no match for firepower like this. We're just happy to have this gun off the streets"

And then the anchors will chime in and say something like, "Wow, our thanks goes out to our brave officers who strive daily to keep guns like these off our streets... truly a dangerous job."

mike100
02-11-2007, 1:09 PM
Well,.. you didn't get your rifle taken or any citations.

San Diego Co isn't as bad as others

The paperwork and your OLL experience might help to educate LE in your area so they will know more about it...hell-maybe he didn't care and was hoping that nothing really illegal was there else he'd have to arrest , but likely was fishing for the possibility for a cite so he could make a quota.

Lastly, and most importantly, weekdays rule for hunting, fishing, boating, surfing..whatever. The 'man' ALWAYS works weekends. I used to get away with a good bit more on a jetski during the week, but the ticket mongers WILL be there on Saturday. I used to hate those guys, but once they see a familiar face/vehicle, you get treated a little better.

Ford8N
02-11-2007, 1:17 PM
lol.. what are you gonna do, fight a cop? Good luck with that.
We'll be hearing about you on the evening news.

It'll say something to the effect of a "routine traffic stop turned violent as a delusional man armed with a deadly military-style assault-rifle was subdued by police tonight" ..

We'll then see a soundbite of a cop saying something like, "We're just happy the officers were able to neutralize the suspect before he could reach his weapon. Weapons like these are banned in California as they are made to kill large numbers of people and will penetrate police body armor. Our issue sidearms are no match for firepower like this. We're just happy to have this gun off the streets"

And then the anchors will chime in and say something like, "Wow, our thanks goes out to our brave officers who strive daily to keep guns like these off our streets... truly a dangerous job."


That's about the way it would go down. The news would also show a clip of a full auto demo and tell the sheep that the weapon taken from the suspect is just like this one. Seen it many times on the local LA news.

Matt C
02-11-2007, 4:26 PM
First off, I AM a cop. That sorta changes the whole thing doesn't it? Second, if he want to subdue me, he is going to need a lot of backup. Third, while I don't have much money for defense lawyers, I have lots and lots of civil lawyers in my family that would be happy to file lawsuits on my behalf.

How's this for another headline (although you will probably only see it on foxnews): "Rouge (dirty) cop arrested by an off-duty federal criminal investigator for attempted theft and kidnapping. Suspect was on duty at the time of arrest and taken to CHP offices to be processed."

lol.. what are you gonna do, fight a cop? Good luck with that.
We'll be hearing about you on the evening news.

It'll say something to the effect of a "routine traffic stop turned violent as a delusional man armed with a deadly military-style assault-rifle was subdued by police tonight" ..

We'll then see a soundbite of a cop saying something like, "We're just happy the officers were able to neutralize the suspect before he could reach his weapon. Weapons like these are banned in California as they are made to kill large numbers of people and will penetrate police body armor. Our issue sidearms are no match for firepower like this. We're just happy to have this gun off the streets"

And then the anchors will chime in and say something like, "Wow, our thanks goes out to our brave officers who strive daily to keep guns like these off our streets... truly a dangerous job."

Charliegone
02-11-2007, 4:51 PM
You know...a 5 min. video would be helpful for officers who do not know much about the OLL stuff.

Crazed_SS
02-11-2007, 5:47 PM
First off, I AM a cop. That sorta changes the whole thing doesn't it?

Actually, it does :)
Let's assume you were a regular citizen though.


Second, if he want to subdue me, he is going to need a lot of backup.

Cmon.. if you're a cop, you know backup isnt a problem. When that cop was shot in Oceanside, I noticed every single Law Enforcement Agency in San Diego County responded. There were cops from National City and Coronado on the scene.. 40 and 50 miles away. They had all manner if full-auto weaponry too.. M4's, MP5, UMPs.. everything.


Third, while I don't have much money for defense lawyers, I have lots and lots of civil lawyers in my family that would be happy to file lawsuits on my behalf.

Many people simply dont have the time or money to fight a court case though. I know I dont. We have to go to work and pay bills and such. Going to jail, making bail, paying lawyers, etc would really screw things up for the average joe.


How's this for another headline (although you will probably only see it on foxnews): "Rouge (dirty) cop arrested by an off-duty federal criminal investigator for attempted theft and kidnapping. Suspect was on duty at the time of arrest and taken to CHP offices to be processed."

That would be hilarious, but as you said, you're a cop so you'd probably be let go. For regular folks, I think my headline would still apply :)

thedrickel
02-11-2007, 6:17 PM
You know...a 5 min. video would be helpful for officers who do not know much about the OLL stuff.

DOJ actually doing its job? That's crazy-talk!

swift
02-11-2007, 6:35 PM
Can you aim (and hit) when you bump fire or is this a reckless way to waste ammo? The one time I shot a full auto, it became apparent that FA is very difficult to aim/control. Is bump firing any better?

MysteryCereal
02-11-2007, 7:30 PM
Can you aim (and hit) when you bump fire or is this a reckless way to waste ammo? The one time I shot a full auto, it became apparent that FA is very difficult to aim/control. Is bump firing any better?

Bumping from the hip gave me no accuracy and bumping from the shoulder gave me a bit for the first few rounds. I believe with practice you can get your aim better, but I honestly just do it for the fun of it. Still seems cheaper then renting a full-auto in Vegas. It would never be anything I would try in a real life scenario. My gun seems to jam when I bump. Could be the lack of a real grip on the weapon.

thefinger
02-12-2007, 9:12 AM
It sucks that you have to be so careful while doing something completely legal. It also sucks that cops don't all know all the details about OLL and such. But you can't really blame the officers for their lack of knowledge on the subject. A lot of these cops (like my dad who has been on the force for over 30 years) were trained in the 70s. I blame the bureaucracy for not educating the guys who actually enforce the law on the streets about new developments gun laws. Street cops aren't lawyers, and you can't expect them to be. It would be nice if cops spent all their free time browsing the calguns forum, but we can't expect them to do that either. Most older cops don't know much about the assault weapons ban other than they had to register all their cool stuff in 2000.

All I'm saying is that its okay to be angry at a cop for being a jerk and having a bad attitude, but when it comes to knowing every detail of the OLL rules lets cut the guys working hard to protect us a little slack. Place the blame where it belongs--with the jerks getting paid twice as much as the cops who are SUPPOSED to know everything about the law.

And don't act so surprised when you get hassled for five minutes by cop when you have a rifle that is pushing the limits of the law, especially when you were just bump-firing it. I'm glad you didn't lose it, but come on..

xrMike
02-12-2007, 9:32 AM
You know...a 5 min. video would be helpful for officers who do not know much about the OLL stuff.Print this out and carry it with you:

http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

(thanks BW -- this is now in my range bag at all times)

ibbryn
02-12-2007, 10:52 AM
It sounds to me more like you used The Force on that guy. "These aren't the droids your looking for."

A cop who says he would have taken your property if you hadn't shown him your proper paperwork, and then acts like printed exerpts from the Penal Code are your "proper paperwork", doesn't really know what's going on. In effect he said "If you hadn't told me how to do my job I would have taken your rifles" which I'm sure he didn't mean to say.

Basically you tricked him into accidentally following the law.
Agree 100%. You Jedi mind melded him.
Your bs pile of worthless paper completely overpowered his bs threats that he and his unseen team of ninjas were going to take your evil black rifle.

Its a shame that lawful citizens have to spend as much energy worrying about being arrested by LEOs as they do worrying about being attacked by criminals, but you did a good job dealing with this cop. Had a good attitude, kept your cool and maybe gave him an education.

Charliegone
02-12-2007, 11:37 AM
Print this out and carry it with you:

http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

(thanks BW -- this is now in my range bag at all times)

Always do.:D

Aluisious
02-12-2007, 11:44 AM
So a couple of friends and I decided to go shooting out in Jacumba. It was my first time going out there, so I was kind of nervous as to what kind of hassle I might because of my "evil" looking rifle. So I decided to carry along some paper work (Penal Code and CCR pertaining to OLL’s) to show whatever uninformed LEO that might give me trouble.

When we first got there, I noticed a few Border Patrol trucks going back and forth. I thought it would be a pretty uneventful day (since we all are US citizens :-p) so I decided to try some bump-firing. I let off a couple of bursts and was quite content with my rifle. Then I saw the Park Ranger truck coming towards us. As he was coming towards us, I double-checked to make sure my Prince50 was nice and tight, magazine couldn’t be pulled out, and put all my weapons in the truck bed. I just KNEW he was going to give me problems about my rifle. So he gets out and tells us all to step away from our weapons. The first question out of his mouth was, "Do you guys have any fully automatic weapons?" We informed him that we did not and then he told us he was going to perform a “Weapons Inspection Check”. As he looks around and tries to decide where to start (we had about 7 or so rifles laid out and 6 handguns), he see's my evil rifle and immediately walks towards it and asks who the owner was. When I told him it was mine, he asked me, "Is it registered to you?" Well of course it isn't, it’s not an assault weapon!! I didn't say that though, since I value my purdy little face and didn’t want to go home with baton marks. I did tell him I had all the paper work right under the rifle in the rifle case and asked if it would be alright for me to step towards it and show him. He said, "Go ahead. I'm not worried, I've got plenty of eyes on us." I almost laughed in his face at that not so veiled threat. After I handed him my little stack of papers, I think he felt inundated with all of it because after a minute or so of him staring blankly at the copy of the penal code I gave him, he said everything was fine. He thanked me for having my paperwork because otherwise I wouldn't have a rifle. I wanted to stand there and explain to him that even if I did not have a copy of my DROS and such, he would have no real right or reason to take away my weapon, but I didn't feel like getting tazered in front of my friends.

Long story short, always carry some paperwork. Even if they don't know what they are reading, they might just get scared that you know more about laws then they do.

I don't understand why you have so much attitude with "I wanted to say this" and "I was going to say" that.

He's just doing his job. Chill out.

Aluisious
02-12-2007, 11:49 AM
Will they? I'd like to see them try an unlawful arrest on me, I really, really would.
Oh good, we can get this ball rolling again...

SemiAutoSam
02-12-2007, 11:52 AM
Sorry to bring this up but to those that don't know. Unless this PDF of Bills had been updated to include the "Bullet Button" and other devices that work the same way its not up to date with the information that we know at the present time.

Print this out and carry it with you:

http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

(thanks BW -- this is now in my range bag at all times)

Lohse
02-12-2007, 12:15 PM
If you had a bullet button and an officer read that memo, he would assume your rifle is an assault weapon. The fixed magazine section in that memo doesn't cover the bullet button and it says that the mag lock needs to take time to remove the magazine.

xrMike
02-12-2007, 12:25 PM
If you had a bullet button and an officer read that memo, he would assume your rifle is an assault weapon. The fixed magazine section in that memo doesn't cover the bullet button and it says that the mag lock needs to take time to remove the magazine.Check out the definition of "detachable magazine" at the very top of page 4 on that memorandum...

"A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool."

That at least touches on the issue, right?

leelaw
02-12-2007, 12:40 PM
This might have been answered already, but I'm going to ask because I'm not reading through the rest of the thread.

What does the DROS have to do with this? A DROS for a longgun does not show any identifying information about the rifle.

hoffmang
02-12-2007, 12:55 PM
I think the final DROS does show the serial number on the physical copy. That would prove that you legally purchased the weapon in CA.

-Gene

MysteryCereal
02-12-2007, 4:19 PM
None of my DROS's (longguns) have had any serial numbers on them. They do, though, have matching dates/times with my other receipts (Cold War Shooters, Local FFL which both had the serial number written on them) and matching phone number from my local FFL receipt to the one on the DROS did make it seem pretty likely to an overwhelmed officer that it was indeed the DROS for my RRA LAR-15.

jnojr
02-12-2007, 4:38 PM
If an LEO decides that you have an "assault rifle", and you don't have a registration for it, there is no piece of paper printed off of the Internet that's going to save you from arrest.

Blackwater has the option of whipping out his badge. Great for him, of absolutely no help to the rest of us.

Matt C
02-12-2007, 5:18 PM
Blackwater has the option of whipping out his badge. Great for him, of absolutely no help to the rest of us.

I just want to be clear, my "badge" should make no difference, and I would NOT "whip it out". I'd be more than happy to let the LEO dig his own legal grave first. On tape of course.:cool: I don't have peace officer arrest authority in CA, although I do have arrest authority under another penal code for felonies, as well as the private person's arrest everyone has.

Aluisious
02-12-2007, 5:48 PM
So basically, you're not a cop.

grammaton76
02-12-2007, 5:52 PM
I just want to be clear, my "badge" should make no difference, and I would NOT "whip it out". I'd be more than happy to let the LEO dig his own legal grave first. On tape of course.:cool: I don't have peace officer arrest authority in CA, although I do have arrest authority under another penal code for felonies, as well as the private person's arrest everyone has.

Security guard? MP? TSA?

MysteryCereal
02-12-2007, 8:25 PM
If an LEO decides that you have an "assault rifle", and you don't have a registration for it, there is no piece of paper printed off of the Internet that's going to save you from arrest.

Blackwater has the option of whipping out his badge. Great for him, of absolutely no help to the rest of us.

Granted what you say is 100% true, but I think having some paperwork in your hand has proven to help a LEO decide it's either not worth his time or it is indeed not an assault weapon.

MysteryCereal
02-12-2007, 8:28 PM
Security guard? MP? TSA?

I don't think he is TSA. I wish my employment for TSA would help me get cooler toys. But alas, I'm just a federal rent-a-cop.

E Pluribus Unum
02-12-2007, 8:36 PM
If memory serves me he is an MP.

On a side note:

EVERYONE has "arrest authority" for felonies committed in their presence. It sounds to me that he is claiming to have arrest authority for felonies he has "probable cause" to believe occurred like California peace officers. If this is true, it is news to me. I always thought MPs only had power under the UCMJ and when not on duty in their military capacity were "civilians" in all respects with regards to the penal code.

This is of course an uninformed opinion and could be very easily wrong in all respects... ;)

Crazed_SS
02-12-2007, 8:43 PM
If memory serves me he is an MP.

On a side note:

EVERYONE has "arrest authority" for felonies committed in their presence. It sounds to me that he is claiming to have arrest authority for felonies he has "probable cause" to believe occurred like California peace officers. If this is true, it is news to me. I always thought MPs only had power under the UCMJ and when not on duty in their military capacity were "civilians" in all respects with regards to the penal code.

This is of course an uninformed opinion and could be very easily wrong in all respects... ;)

MPs dont have police powers over civilians off base.

Blackwater is basically the same as us then.. if he starts crap with a cop, he'll get a tazer to the chest just like everyone else. And then they'll search his car anyway and find a "Deadly military-style Assault Rifle" and then it'll be all downhill from there.

Matt C
02-12-2007, 9:00 PM
For the most part you guys are correct, although since I am a CID Agent it's a bit different, we have made arrests under PC 830.8 several times (probable cause felonies) for things where state law applied. Not exactly the same as an 837 arrest, and it does apply to civilians. When my .mil contact ends I will become a civilian CID agent, then I will have federal powers, but not until then. Why is this important? Cop or no, I would not submit to an unlawful arrest, anyone has a right to resist unlawful force, and the "I would not fight because I think I would get my butt kicked" arguement just does not sit well with me.

Edited to add: Oh, and a taser to the chest? I'm not worried: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223649&highlight=taser:D

E Pluribus Unum
02-12-2007, 9:12 PM
MPs dont have police powers over civilians off base.

That is what I thought.... remembering back to my school days and The Posse Comitatus Act..... giving MPs police powers over civilians in all circumstances would be a violation of the PCA....

Aluisious
02-12-2007, 9:25 PM
Hah...nice post on the Taser blackops.

I guess the cops who use these things effectively against drugged out whackos are just psyching people out :p

E Pluribus Unum
02-12-2007, 9:27 PM
For the most part you guys are correct, although since I am a CID Agent it's a bit different, we have made arrests under PC 830.8 several times (probable cause felonies) for things where state law applied.

But, who were you arresting? I would assume a member of the military that had violated something in the PC. I am going to take a wild guess here and say it was misdemeanor spousal battery... :)



Not exactly the same as an 837 arrest, and it does apply to civilians.

No one ever said that civilians are not subject to the UCMJ.... let a "civie" try punching an on-duty MP and see if he is charged under the UCMJ.

Why is this important? Cop or no, I would not submit to an unlawful arrest, anyone has a right to resist unlawful force, and the "I would not fight because I think I would get my butt kicked" argument just does not sit well with me.

The problem is most people will believe the cop unless you have ironclad proof. You better get that cop on tape. There is a "mistake of law" defense for law enforcement. They don't have to know EVERY law perfectly.

For most people it is better to get arrested on a 12 hour hold and spend 2 months getting their legal rifle back than it is to spend $200k on a legal defense for shooting a police officer. When you start to "resist" this "unlawful force" what do you think that cop is going to do? He will just sit back and say "Ok, he is resisting, it’s not worth it, I will leave"? I don't think so; He is going to start to man handle you. At the point that you get the upper hand he will present his weapon and you will have to make a decision to get shot/shoot him, or give up and get arrested on not only the gun charge but whatever else he can throw in there.

I agree... under the letter of the law, you are correct; most of us will take the cheaper route of getting illegally arrested. :)

Matt C
02-12-2007, 9:47 PM
But, who were you arresting? I would assume a member of the military that had violated something in the PC. I am going to take a wild guess here and say it was misdemeanor spousal battery... :)


Actually they were mostly receiving stolen property charges and such, although was for stalking.... and all those were civilians, we don't "arrest" military offenders.


No one ever said that civilians are not subject to the UCMJ.... let a "civie" try punching an on-duty MP and see if he is charged under the UCMJ.


He could not be, he would be charged under federal or state law, depending where it happened. When I was a "uniformed cop" it was in DC, an they would be sent before a federal magistrate.


The problem is most people will believe the cop unless you have ironclad proof. You better get that cop on tape.


I 100% agree, I ALWAYS carry a tape recorder, something I picked up as a cop who was tired of false complaints.


There is a "mistake of law" defense for law enforcement. They don't have to know EVERY law perfectly.


BS. Total BS. In any case, he can tell it to a judge.

That is what I thought.... remembering back to my school days and The Posse Comitatus Act..... giving MPs police powers over civilians in all circumstances would be a violation of the PCA....
That would be true, if the PCA had not been totally gutted last year.

E Pluribus Unum
02-12-2007, 9:59 PM
That would be true, if the PCA had not been totally gutted last year.

It was not completely gutted... Public Law 109-364 merely makes the president able to declare an Emergency and suspend PCA.... though it provides a major loophole it does not remove the protection completely.

PCA was suspended under martial law anyway... which the president can declare.

Matt C
02-12-2007, 10:01 PM
It was not completely gutted... Public Law 109-364 merely makes the president able to declare an Emergency and suspend PCA.... though it provides a major loophole it does not remove the protection completely.

PCA was suspended under martial law anyway... which the president can declare.

Well, I guess since it's really state law that gives the arrest powers in the PC, the PCA does not apply anyway. There is also something in the PC that gives national guard troops police arrest powers under limited circumstances.

E Pluribus Unum
02-12-2007, 10:20 PM
Well, I guess since it's really state law that gives the arrest powers in the PC, the PCA does not apply anyway.

This was never disputed. All I said was that if the federal government tried to use MP to govern private citizens (without presidential declaration of emergency or martial law) that would be a violation of the PCA (it would be).


There is also something in the PC that gives national guard troops police arrest powers under limited circumstances.

PC830.8 also gives BLM and US Forestry employees arrest powers in limited circumstances... (written consent from local jurisdiction).

We can go round and round with possibilties in all circumstances. I think generally speaking it can be said that MPs (or CID employees) do not have any more arrest power than private citizens (barring extreme rare circumstances).

Outlaw Josey Wales
02-13-2007, 2:39 PM
It sounds to me more like you used The Force on that guy. "These aren't the droids your looking for."



Also known as a Jehdi mind trick! :)

E Pluribus Unum
02-13-2007, 3:30 PM
Also known as a Jehdi mind trick! :)

They only work on the weak minded.... why hasn't anyone tried it on the liberals?

odysseus
02-13-2007, 3:50 PM
Anyone have that thread about documents one should have with them for an OLL. I might just print those out this time...:(

jnojr
02-13-2007, 4:10 PM
Cop or no, I would not submit to an unlawful arrest, anyone has a right to resist unlawful force, and the "I would not fight because I think I would get my butt kicked" arguement just does not sit well with me.

It's more like, "I won't fight because I'll lose. Even if I win, I'll be swarmed by angry LEOs. I can't fight them all, and they will take me down. If I'm not killed, I will go sit in a cell. The DA will tell the judge that I committed a horrible crime of violence and should be remanded without bail. I will be charged with as many felonies as they can think up. The jury almost certainly will convict me, because everyone knows that innocent people don't fight the police. So, I will die, be beaten to a raw bloddly pulp, and/or spend the rest of my life in prison"

But that's just me. I'm not very brave. I'd rather go home than to become a 12 hour Internet martyr who'll be quickly forgotten and forsaken a day or so after the gavel drops.

Bryan
02-13-2007, 6:19 PM
Guys, I’m a noob here. I hate to be the one to do it, but I’d like to share some of my thoughts about the topic…you know, THE TOPIC…please bear with me and be kind…I’m new…

MysteryCereal
I’d like to thank you for doing what we should all do when approached by law enforcement.

First: You were legal and knew it.
That may not sound like much of an accomplishment but, think about what that entails. You had to do your own research and decide for yourself what was real and what was BS. Legal wise, I mean. Not an easy thing to do in this internet world that we live in.

You built a weapon that is in compliance with the law. Again, may seem like a “no-brainer” but you did your research.

You where cordial and compliant when faced with an officer that demonstrated somewhat of a “who’s-your-daddy” type of attitude.

And…You where prepared with the paperwork to assist the undereducated in understanding the legality of your actions and help them understand these VERY new and VERY specific laws.

Folks, I think we all have an obligation to our brothers and sisters in this BRD community, to do as MysteryCereal did in this matter, and do our part to demonstrate that we are intelligent and educated people that understand and comply with the law (like it or not) as it is written, and offer our assistance to our brothers and sisters in blue to understand the law that they MUST enforce (hey, they just plow fields for their families too, right?).

Anything short of that is irresponsible and gives all of us a black eye and the DOJ another notch in their belt.

THANKS MysteryCereal!!

Just my $0.02

PS. Now, about that bump-fire….

artherd
02-13-2007, 8:23 PM
Guys, BUMP FIRE NEXT TO LEO = STUPID.

While I don't entirely disagree, one of my shooting buddies is an LEO, and he likes safely goofing off with weapons, for instance bumpfiring.

Presence of Law Enforcement personel should not make one shy away from Legal activities.

Bryan
02-13-2007, 8:26 PM
I Agree

artherd
02-13-2007, 8:29 PM
I think the final DROS does show the serial number on the physical copy. That would prove that you legally purchased the weapon in CA.

-Gene
Gene, 4473 shows SN, but DROS does not (for longguns).