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lower lover
02-10-2007, 7:45 PM
What dose the price come out to per round, also how is the performance better or worse than factory.

CAT_101
02-11-2007, 12:12 AM
how is the performance better or worse than factory.
I load my own 223. The performance is always just as good if not better than factory. I usaly buy 2K-3K bullets at a time to keep cost down. I can load 1K for less than $100. depinding on powder used. Never had a jam or mis fire yeat. nock on wood....

MysteryCereal
02-11-2007, 3:16 AM
I load my own 223. The performance is always just as good if not better than factory. I usaly buy 2K-3K bullets at a time to keep cost down. I can load 1K for less than $100. depinding on powder used. Never had a jam or mis fire yeat. nock on wood....


May I ask roughly how much you spent setting up your reloading equipment. I'm also very interested in reloading after visiting Wal-Mart and noticing it's not such a great deal anymore.

CAT_101
02-11-2007, 8:21 AM
I already had a dillon 550b so all I needed was dies and a conversion kit for it. about $70. I dont use the dillon to load the powder as for some reason it never all gets in the shell.

So I just FL size the shell and prime it. Pull it out, load powder in shell buy hand. put back in the press, seet bullet thin light crimp it. The slowes part is the powder. As I am using a 502 scale.

Do you have any equipment at all or are you starting from scratch?

anyracoon
02-11-2007, 1:35 PM
I did not like the Dillon powder measure for my rifle loads so I got RCBSs case activated linkage kit to use with my RCBS Uniflow powdr measure on my 550, it has the micrometer adjustment so I just dial in the number and load. Works great with ball & stick powders. Probally going to try it out on my 650 next.

Fjold
02-11-2007, 3:49 PM
I use my Dillon 450B for loading 223. Use a ball powder like BLC(2) etc and the powder measure works fine.

Whitesmoke
02-11-2007, 4:04 PM
I can load 1K for less than $100.

I take it that this price doesn't include brass?

swift
02-11-2007, 7:55 PM
For target loads, I pay $135 for 1K "match" bullets + about $25 for primers and $40 for powder. I reuse cases, so my total cost is $200/K. This is not much cheaper than factory ammo, but it is noticably more accurate.

For a carbine, I just buy factory ammo and blaze away. Not worth reloading, IMO.

CAT_101
02-12-2007, 5:30 AM
I take it that this price doesn't include brass?

I pick up allot of LEO brass at the sac vally range. they leve tuns of FC brass in piles. take a bucket and scope away.
My suplayer has run out of 223 bullits. so I must find another sorce. That will probly put me over $120 per 1K. But like I said I buy 2-3K at a time to save on shiping and some times a discount on total amount bought:D

ocabj
02-12-2007, 8:15 AM
I am currently loading the following:

77gr Nosler
24.0gr RL15
CCI BR4
LC Brass
@ 20 cents per round not counting brass

80gr Sierra MK
24.0gr RL14
CCI BR4
Lapua Brass
@ 27 cents per round not counting brass

The cost of brass needs to be factored in on a variable scale since the cost of brass per round decreases everytime you reuse brass. In the case of my 600 yard load using Lapua, the cost of brass by itself is about 45 cents per round. Divide that by 2 after it's once fired, by 3 after twice fired, etc.

The above isn't the cheapest. I'm using CCI BR4 which are pretty expensive locally. Rem 7-1/2s are cheaper and just as good, but I can't get them locally and I prefer to use a primer that is readily available for my competition loads.

If you want to load real cheap, get yourself some WC844 or WC846. Buy an 8lb jug for about $100 from Pat's Reloading, get some 55gr FMJs from Golden West, basic CCI 400 primers, and some range pickup brass and you can load 55gr ammo for about 12 cents a round (12 cents makes a 'box' of 20 rounds = $2.40). That's way better than you can find a box of Wolf.

jmlivingston
02-12-2007, 8:36 AM
Thanks Ocabj!

I looked up Golden West and that looks like a great price on bullets. ($48/1K for 55 gr and $50/1K for 62 gr) I'm also looking to do exactly what you're suggesting, with some WC844 from Pat's. OlegK is working on a group buy of powder here in OC to save on the shipping and HazMat fee's, he should be posting something about it later this morning.

John

ocabj
02-12-2007, 9:08 AM
Just an FYI regarding Golden West: You can actually do a pickup in person on a weekday from them. So if you or anyone is willing to go to El Monte, then you can buy in person via cash (tax included in the price). But since they do the free shipping for 2000 bullets, it's not a big deal to buy over the phone and have it shipped.

jmlivingston
02-12-2007, 9:11 AM
I saw that they were in El Monte, and was wondering about that. But then again, with a 2K bullet purchase having free shipping it's hardly worth the drive up there.

John

Whitesmoke
02-12-2007, 9:40 AM
I saw that they were in El Monte, and was wondering about that. But then again, with a 2K bullet purchase having free shipping it's hardly worth the drive up there.

John

I don't think the shipping is free for 2K bullets...I hink it's $10. Which is still real cheap for the weight......

jmlivingston
02-12-2007, 9:43 AM
From their website: http://www.goldenwestbrass.com/GoldenWest/GoldenWestWEB/BULLETS.htm :D

FREE SHIPPING ON ORDERS OF 2,000 OR MORE ANYWHERE IN THE U.S.

Whitesmoke
02-12-2007, 10:10 AM
From their website: http://www.goldenwestbrass.com/GoldenWest/GoldenWestWEB/BULLETS.htm :D



Huh...what threw me was this:

223 .224 (62 GRAIN)

$28.00 500
$50.00 1000
$110.00 2000 (shipping included)

2000 rounds with shipping included is $10 more per order more than their 1000 round price......so at their quoted price.....their "free" shipping is really "$10" shipping.

anyracoon
02-12-2007, 12:52 PM
I just got a E-mail from Golden West. Sad news as the rising cost of copper has caused his prices to go up. Here is his reply.

Sorry our website has not been updated. Below you'll find the updated price
list for our bullet. Because of the increase on copper cost we no longer have
the free shipping. Please take a look at the price and if you're ok with it
please call the number below to place and order. Thanks! David

Pistol Bullets Description Gr. Dia. Retail 9mm FMJ
115gr. 0.355 $ 64.00
124gr. 0.355 $ 65.00
147gr. 0.355 $ 70.00
38 spl / 357 RN 158gr. 0.357 $ 70.00
38 spl / 357 FN 158gr. 0.357 $ 70.00
40 S&W / 10mm 155gr. 0.400
$ 80.00 40 S&W / 10mm 180gr. 0.400 $ 80.00
45 ACP 200gr. 0.451 $ 90.00 45 ACP 230gr. 0.451 $ 90.00
Rifle Bullets Price Per 1000 Description Gr. Dia. 223 FMJ 55gr. 0.224 $58.00 62gr. 0.224 $ 60.00
308 FMJ 150gr. 0.308 $
85.00 168gr. 0.308 $ 90.00
7.62X39 FMJ 124gr. 0.311 $
75.00 150gr. 0.311 $ 80.00


David Chiang
Golden West Brass Industry
2458 N, Rosemead Blvd
S. El Monte, CA. 91733
Tel: 626-454-4585
Fax:626-454-3496
Cell: 626-786-3455
www.goldenwestbrass.com

jmlivingston
02-12-2007, 1:03 PM
aaarrrggghh..... I hate it when small shops don't keep their websites updated.

That's still a reasonable price from what I've seen. If somebody in the OC area wants to make a GB on these and drive up to get them I'd be interested in participating, including chipping in for some gas. I just don't have the time to do it myself, getting pretty busy with work and family matters right now. Otherwise I'll just have to pay the shipping costs, but there's enough of us in the OC area that are talking about reloading that somebody ought to be able to put this together.

John

GTKrockeTT
02-12-2007, 1:16 PM
goldenwestbrass...their storefront (if you can call it that) scares me. i also find it amusing that they are all "sold out" of brass for 2007. but, yes their bullet prices are reasonable, even with the increase.

ocabj
02-12-2007, 1:22 PM
goldenwestbrass...their storefront (if you can call it that) scares me.

Hahahaha. I know what you mean. I think I went to an older location they had in an industrial district which had several buildings (A, B, C, D, etc). I went to the wrong building (but correct number) and I walked into a sweatshop.

Good thing I didn't get tackled and thrown in front of a sewing machine.

"We need these fake Gucci bags on the streets of Hong Kong in two weeks!"

Whitesmoke
02-12-2007, 1:26 PM
goldenwestbrass...their storefront (if you can call it that) scares me. i also find it amusing that they are all "sold out" of brass for 2007. but, yes their bullet prices are reasonable, even with the increase.

Where does it say they are sold out of brass for 2007? I can't find that anywhere.....I was thinking of getting some too.

GTKrockeTT
02-12-2007, 1:54 PM
Where does it say they are sold out of brass for 2007? I can't find that anywhere.....I was thinking of getting some too.

that's what they told me at my last visit.

Whitesmoke
02-12-2007, 2:07 PM
that's what they told me at my last visit.

ahhh...ok, I was looking all over their website for it...lol.

ns3v3n
02-12-2007, 6:53 PM
you can always try ebay for brass,

grammaton76
02-12-2007, 7:22 PM
I personally like hitting www.brassworldonline.org

The guy who runs it is really nice, albeit not very computer literate. He sends out periodic panic mails about his SSL certificates... :)

Jicko
02-14-2007, 1:20 AM
To make something similar to BH Mk262 load:

Per 1000 rounds cost (material pricing from midwayusa):
4lb Hodgdon Varget powder $19x4 = $76
1000 Winchester Small Rifle primer = $23
1000 Sierra MatchKing 77gr HPBT bullets $91x2 = $182
OR 1000 Nosler 77gr Custom Comp HPBT bullets $38x4 = $152
TOTAL = $281/1000 ($251 w/ Nosler Bullet)


To buy Black Hills Ammo @ Midwayusa:
Remanuf 1000 77gr SMK HP $541
New 1000 77gr SMK HP $760


So if you are going after "match" grade loads, the reloading will save you a LOT of money. But as previous posts listed out, with today's expensive ammo pricing on XM193, XM855 and even AE223, I think reloading will still save you some $$ even if you are only going after simple 55gr or 62gr load.

One more thing, if you are after 62gr bullets, reloading is actually better since you can get 62gr bullet from GoldenWest that is non-*ap*.... ie. not like XM855.... that is not welcome in indoor shooting ranges, nor they are welcome in distance steel matches....

ocabj
02-14-2007, 8:01 AM
To make something similar to BH Mk262 load:

Per 1000 rounds cost (material pricing from midwayusa):
4lb Hodgdon Varget powder $19x4 = $76
1000 Winchester Small Rifle primer = $23
1000 Sierra MatchKing 77gr HPBT bullets $91x2 = $182
OR 1000 Nosler 77gr Custom Comp HPBT bullets $38x4 = $152
TOTAL = $281/1000 ($251 w/ Nosler Bullet)


Don't use Winchester SR primers. I would avoid using them in the AR, especially for high pressure NATO loads (above SAAMI spec). You're going to pierce primers, pop primer cups, crater, etc. In my experience, Winchester SR primers can't handle it. Go with CCI 400s or BR4s.

Also, if you switch between SMK and Nosler, you need to chrono the loads, especially if you are trying to duplicate MK262. The Nosler will shoot faster than the SMK with the same powder charge weight. The ogive is 'longer' giving less bearing surface, and therefore more muzzle velocity. I would personally use Noslers since they are cheaper if you get in on the Nosler.com sales when they happen, plus you can shoot them at MK262 speeds with less pressure than if you used the SMK, and Noslers actually had better terminal performance according to military tests (but SMKs were chosen instead because Sierra put a cannelure on the bullet; read Ammo Oracle for explanation).

Jicko
02-14-2007, 8:41 AM
Thanks for the pointers.... I never reloaded 223 before.... I've got a 550B for reloading my handgun rounds, and I am now looking into acquiring equipments/dies to do 223 reloading.

So for primers, what's the difference between #400 or #BR4? What's so special about "bench rest"?

RE: Nosler, don't they have cannelure too on their 77gr HPBT bullets? I just went and check on their site, they are actually having a SALE NOW... ie. $127 for 1000 77gr HPBT, that's a GREAT price(1000 Golden West 62gr will cost $120 already)... anyone know how much shipping do they charge?

So, in your personal experience, do the Nosler perform better than the SMK then?


Don't use Winchester SR primers. I would avoid using them in the AR, especially for high pressure NATO loads (above SAAMI spec). You're going to pierce primers, pop primer cups, crater, etc. In my experience, Winchester SR primers can't handle it. Go with CCI 400s or BR4s.

Also, if you switch between SMK and Nosler, you need to chrono the loads, especially if you are trying to duplicate MK262. The Nosler will shoot faster than the SMK with the same powder charge weight. The ogive is 'longer' giving less bearing surface, and therefore more muzzle velocity. I would personally use Noslers since they are cheaper if you get in on the Nosler.com sales when they happen, plus you can shoot them at MK262 speeds with less pressure than if you used the SMK, and Noslers actually had better terminal performance according to military tests (but SMKs were chosen instead because Sierra put a cannelure on the bullet; read Ammo Oracle for explanation).

ocabj
02-14-2007, 8:53 AM
The BR4 should have a better standard deviation.

As far as Nosler vs Sierra. I've found that they shoot the same as far as accuracy at 200 yards. I have yet to shoot them in competition, yet, but I'm sure they'll do just as good at the 200 and 300 yard lines. I think the Hornady 75gr BTHP, Sierra 77gr Match King, and Nosler 77gr BTHP are all going to shoot equally well.

xdpackin
02-14-2007, 4:35 PM
I reload 223 and it is great if you like control and a price break! I have a lee classic cast turret press that I use and can crank out rounds pretty fast... and I only spent less than $300 for all my reloading stuff...

Jicko
02-23-2007, 6:57 PM
And they are... non-cannelure... do Nosler have cannelured 77gr HPBT??
I guess, for my purpose... it is OK, if they are non-cannelure... I just hope that my loaded roads will feed right and the bullet will not be pushed in to create the over-pressure situation...

Back to the Nosler 77gr HPBT that I've got.... I've noticed quite some of them got some "stuff" in the HP!!! I thought that the HP is a feature to make the bullet MORE stable, but now, if there are "stuff" in that hole, is it OK? Is that "normal"?

Check out my pics and the lot code:

http://images21.fotki.com/v516/photos/2/26966/4649246/IMG_9089-vi.jpg

http://images6.fotki.com/v75/photos/2/26966/4649246/IMG_9071-vi.jpg

ocabj
02-23-2007, 7:35 PM
Meplats are sometimes not uniform. As far as stuff in the actual meplat hole, it could be just polishing media. Can you poke it out with a toothpick? It shouldn't be a problem as far as accuracy is concerned. The hollow point in match bullets doesn't make the bullet more stable in itself. The reason why a match bullet is a "hollow point" is because the bulk of the bullet mass, or core, is near the base. When the jacket and tip are formed, the result is a hollow tip or point. The fact that there is something in the meplat, such as displayed in your photo, won't affect aerodynamics.

Technical Ted
02-23-2007, 7:48 PM
And they are... non-cannelure... do Nosler have cannelured 77gr HPBT?? Cannelured OTM from either Nosler or Sierra were a special order item for the Mk262. Neither company offered cannelured 77's as part of their catalog.

The problem is, they don't know what firearm, cartridge and chamber the end user is seating the bullets for. Not everypne's loading these for AR15's.

Bullets should be seated to the cannelure and crimped. If the cannelure's too high on the bullet, the base could take up valuable internal space needed for powder charge. If the cannelure's too low, the bullet might not seat deep enough to fit in a magazine.

If you need a cannelure and want to take the time, there are always cannelure tools:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,350.html
http://www.corbins.com/hct-1.htm
http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar47.htm

Jicko
02-23-2007, 8:20 PM
ocabj, MANY of my bullets have those "stuff" in the meplat hole.... do your lot have similar "stuff" too? We assume that we are buying from similar lots since both of yours and mine are coming directly from Nosler, only 1 wk apart...

Meplats are sometimes not uniform. As far as stuff in the actual meplat hole, it could be just polishing media. Can you poke it out with a toothpick? It shouldn't be a problem as far as accuracy is concerned. The hollow point in match bullets doesn't make the bullet more stable in itself. The reason why a match bullet is a "hollow point" is because the bulk of the bullet mass, or core, is near the base. When the jacket and tip are formed, the result is a hollow tip or point. The fact that there is something in the meplat, such as displayed in your photo, won't affect aerodynamics.