PDA

View Full Version : I'm pretty sure this is illegal or a sting? selling loaded 30rd


icentropy
10-13-2011, 7:27 AM
.223/5.56 30rd magazine loaded - $10 (newbury park)

30 rounds of .223/5.56 with magazine xxx-xxx-xxxx
http://ventura.craigslist.org/spo/2642309156.html

DannyInSoCal
10-13-2011, 7:34 AM
The ad states "30 rounds of ammo AND a magazine".

It doesn't state it's a 30 round magazine or even a loaded magazine...

OHW
10-13-2011, 7:35 AM
I would bet on it.

vintagearms
10-13-2011, 7:37 AM
It can't be a sting operation, it's not illegal to buy a 30 round magazine.

Actually, it is. Its called conspiracy. Bweiss has already stated this. You want to be the test subject??

Shellshocker66
10-13-2011, 7:51 AM
Kinda a strange ad to just have such a small amount of ammo and oh here is the magazine with it.

icentropy
10-13-2011, 7:54 AM
The ad states "30 rounds of ammo AND a magazine".

It doesn't state it's a 30 round magazine or even a loaded magazine...

the ad is titled ".223/5.56 30rd magazine loaded" just seems fishy to me

Window_Seat
10-13-2011, 8:28 AM
He's selling 30 rounds, and he is throwing in a magazine.

The posting will be pulled. He needs to repost it and clarify it better.

Erik.

Psy Crow
10-13-2011, 8:29 AM
The Police cannot break the law to enforce the law. It's not a sting.

If this is the case, how can the police catch speeders?

shooterfpga
10-13-2011, 8:30 AM
it says its a loaded 30rd magazine, which leads me to believe its filled to normal capacity. its also very odd that someone would sell a loaded magazine, or even a magazine with exactly 30rds, including the fact that its for $10. sounds like its stolen property, a trap, or stolen property. if he had a picture and it wasnt CL, i would be interested in buying if he offered shipping. i also did a background check on the number listed, it is a private party non leo. it comes back to a landline registered to a male occupant in his 50's.

swilson
10-13-2011, 8:31 AM
You don't think it's not somebody who just simply doesn't know? Call them and tell them you'll buy it unloaded and broken down for the full price. Nothing illegal about just calling them and asking. I would if it was in my area. Nothing illegal about buying 30 rounds and a rebuild kit either if they agree. If they say no it might be a setup.

spalterego
10-13-2011, 8:36 AM
The Police cannot break the law to enforce the law. It's not a sting.

So if somebody offers you some illegal drugs it is safe to buy them b/c "the police cannot break the law to enforce the law" and therefore you know it is not a sting?

shooterfpga
10-13-2011, 8:39 AM
The Police cannot break the law to enforce the law. It's not a sting.

If this is the case, how can the police catch speeders?

would it be considered baiting, if say for instance, you are being chased by police and in this chase, you are forced to speed. is that entrapment?

notme92069
10-13-2011, 8:41 AM
I sent an email saying I'll take it and used the San Diego PD Crime Prevention phone number. I also like to use phone numbers from the Chargers, Padres, etc for these kinds of ads. If everyone did this, and it is the PO PO, maybe they would get the hint we are on to them. Unfortunately some idiot will really try an buy it.

shooterfpga
10-13-2011, 8:43 AM
I sent an email saying I'll take it and used the San Diego PD Crime Prevention phone number. I also like to use phone numbers from the Chargers, Padres, etc for these kinds of ads. If everyone did this, and it is the PO PO, maybe they would get the hint we are on to them. Unfortunately some idiot will really try an buy it.

i traced the number, its a landline to a single male occupant in his 50's. now granted, they can still sting from someone's address as seen on tv. but i think hes just misinformed. who will be the bad news bear to tell him to disassemble it so hes not in trouble?

Liberty1
10-13-2011, 8:57 AM
I called and left a message advising the seller to dissemble if over 10rd mag and to come here if any questions remain. Ops, now the NSA has a voice print of me.:TFH:

shooterfpga
10-13-2011, 8:59 AM
I called and left a message advising the seller to dissemble if over 10rd mag and to come here if any questions remain.

good man, keeping californians out of jail since 1776, lol.

Phouty
10-13-2011, 9:17 AM
The Police cannot break the law to enforce the law. It's not a sting.

Fast and Furious? :whistling:

BoonieGhost
10-13-2011, 9:23 AM
The Police cannot break the law to enforce the law. It's not a sting.

What do you mean?!? They do it all the time,ever heard of undercover drug sales?!? Dont be so ignorant... :facepalm:

tiki
10-13-2011, 9:41 AM
i also did a background check on the number listed, it is a private party non leo. it comes back to a landline registered to a male occupant in his 50's.

Ha ha ha. That kicks ***.

boxbro
10-13-2011, 9:43 AM
Could this guy have already committed a crime by simply offering it for sale ?

thomashoward
10-13-2011, 9:43 AM
You don't think it's not somebody who just simply doesn't know? Call them and tell them you'll buy it unloaded and broken down for the full price. Nothing illegal about just calling them and asking. I would if it was in my area. Nothing illegal about buying 30 rounds and a rebuild kit either if they agree. If they say no it might be a setup.

This ^

boxbro
10-13-2011, 9:44 AM
i also did a background check on the number listed, it is a private party non leo. it comes back to a landline registered to a male occupant in his 50's.

Is there a website where you can do that for free ?
All the ones I have ever seen require payment.

bwiese
10-13-2011, 10:23 AM
It can't be a sting operation, it's not illegal to buy a 30 round magazine.

PLEASE OH PLEASE STOP PROPAGATING THIS CRAP.

Ever read PC 31?

BoonieGhost
10-13-2011, 10:24 AM
You have OBVIOUSLY never been involved in such an operation. You speak from complete and total ignorance. We do NOT sell drugs to people undercover.

Stop getting your police operations knowledge from TV seriously people.

you just keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel better hot-rod...

shooterfpga
10-13-2011, 10:25 AM
Doing such a track will be completely ineffective in determining whether it's LE or not.

seeing as it shows the guys full name and address, i would say hes a private citizen.

gose
10-13-2011, 10:31 AM
You have OBVIOUSLY never been involved in such an operation. You speak from complete and total ignorance. We do NOT sell drugs to people undercover.

Stop getting your police operations knowledge from TV seriously people.


Does that go for the CoCo SD as well?

Briancnelson
10-13-2011, 10:31 AM
You have OBVIOUSLY never been involved in such an operation. You speak from complete and total ignorance. We do NOT sell drugs to people undercover.

Stop getting your police operations knowledge from TV seriously people.

I get it from studies done by legal experts.

http://legalworkshop.org/2010/02/24/breaking-the-law-to-enforce-it-undercover-police-participation-in-crime

It's a grey area of the law, and nowhere near as clear cut as you seem to believe.

The article above is from a UC Davis professor who I heard speak on the subject once, and she's written law review articles on it as well.

The reality is, that under certain circumstances, police do break the law to enforce it. Sting operations are the notable area where this happens the most. This practice has been overlooked and even explicitly authorized by certain law enforcement agencies and even judges and case law.

Just like the old saw that a cop can't lie to you about being a cop, it's urban myth. Cops are allowed to use deception and acts which would, without authorization, be criminal, in enforcing the law. And generally, it won't be considered entrapment, absent some pretty egregious circumstances.

And where they won't do it themselves personally, they often grant immunity to a paid informant. You'll note that's precisely what's happened in the case of the Iranian accused of plotting to kill the Saudi ambassador recently.

Whether that SHOULD be the case, is open for debate, but it certainly IS the case.

shooterfpga
10-13-2011, 10:42 AM
I can get license plates that are legit with the fake name of somebody who doesn't exist. Cell phones with a name an address of somebody who doesn't exist and even a legit California DL with the same name. Just have to get cleared from the dept for the operation.

ok, would that non-existant person show up in the database when i searched for you from a courthouse computer? just curious how far they go into making sure a fake person seems legit?

redking
10-13-2011, 10:46 AM
I bought a car with the ability to go 130mph

Conspiracy / intent to drive recklessly :D

DERP DERP

boxbro
10-13-2011, 10:50 AM
Doing such a track will be completely ineffective in determining whether it's LE or not.

I am fully aware of that, I was just curious for future reference.
Sometimes I get strange calls on my cell and it would be nice to be able to trace them.

CHS
10-13-2011, 10:58 AM
It can't be a sting operation, it's not illegal to buy a 30 round magazine.

It is however illegal to sell, expose for sale, or offer for sale a large capacity magazine. The listing itself is illegal unless the magazine is either not actually a 30rd'er or it is broken down into parts.

bombadillo
10-13-2011, 11:01 AM
The Police cannot break the law to enforce the law. It's not a sting.

Why can't they. They have minors buy alcohol for stings all the time and that in and of itself is breaking the law.

Wherryj
10-13-2011, 11:22 AM
The ad states "30 rounds of ammo AND a magazine".

It doesn't state it's a 30 round magazine or even a loaded magazine...

The auction title is "30 round loaded magazine". The description makes it a bit more vague, but it is safe to assume that it IS a 30 round magazine.

boxbro
10-13-2011, 11:24 AM
It is however illegal to sell, expose for sale, or offer for sale a large capacity magazine. The listing itself is illegal unless the magazine is either not actually a 30rd'er or it is broken down into parts.

That's what I was thinking.

Wherryj
10-13-2011, 11:26 AM
would it be considered baiting, if say for instance, you are being chased by police and in this chase, you are forced to speed. is that entrapment?

Not it isn't entrapment. I've read several times about people who were being "tailgated" by a vehicle at night. They sped up because they "thought that it was dangerous" only to have the red and blue lights activate.

Their theory was that it was entrapment because the officer created a dangerous condition and "forced" them to speed. It doesn't seem to hold up in traffic court because you can slow down to force the tailgater to slow down, or you can pull over and let them pass.

Briancnelson
10-13-2011, 11:51 AM
Police cannot grant immunity from prosecution only the District Attorney has that power. We do not sell drugs....on a buy bust operation you use counterfeit narcotics which are harmless. Can you imagine the liability if somebody used Police Dept drugs and died. The customers are arrested for attempt possession which is still a felony.

Your department may not, but others can and have, including the DEA. Published fact, you don't have to take my word for it.

Your department's guidelines are not necessarily consistent with every department or agency out there.

And your assertion about drugs has little or nothing to do with the initial post, regarding magazines, or your subsequent post stating that cops aren't allowed to break the law to enforce it.

That statement, and your further defense of it, are both completely incorrect, as I have already demonstrated.

I can appreciate your obvious personal belief that that shouldn't be the case, and even agree with it. I'm pleased to hear your department has drawn a clear line. To say that that is the only possible line however, is contrafactual.

bombadillo
10-13-2011, 11:52 AM
No it is not breaking the law because state law specifically allows such an operation to take place. Also minors are people under 21 not under 18.

So how would that differ from the law specifically allowing a 30 round magazine to be sold (breaking the law) which would be the same as a minor (person under 21 years of age) buying alcohol from a place. Same scenario, different item being sold. Still being sold illegally so that doesn't hold any water.

Briancnelson
10-13-2011, 11:53 AM
No it is not breaking the law because state law specifically allows such an operation to take place. Also minors are people under 21 not under 18.

Not always, specifically, it depends on the state. Many states do not have such a specific authorization and yet engage in that kind of sting. And as the prior article I linked to you, and indeed a basic Google search, will demonstrate that generally, in many sting operations of many kinds, the police will rely on policy, and a long accepted precedent that police may authorize actions which would otherwise be illegal if they reasonably believe it will lead to the capture of a criminal, and it doesn't unduly endanger innocents.

Incidentally, the fact that such a law can be on the books and not be considered unconstitutional is further evidence of the very principle I'm stating, which is that the courts have long held that there can be "authorized" breaches of law by the government in order to enforce the laws.

Ubermcoupe
10-13-2011, 12:34 PM
Posting was flagged for removal.

BigDogatPlay
10-13-2011, 12:34 PM
There is a fine line that true sting operations have to walk. It involves, generally, providing an opportunity for the subject of the sting to commit a crime. There is a distinct cut line as well between "unwary guilty" and "unwary innocent". If the sting nets unwary innocents, then it's not going to pass a sniff test for entrapment. There was case law a while back in Florida on point. Whether the subject choses to act on that opportunity is up to them... the old request / choice thing that they taught us all in the academy. If the subject does act, they've completed the crime and are subject to arrest. There is a ton of guidelines backed up by statute and case law that cover sting ops.

With an eye and a nod to Bill's assertion on PC 31, in the strictest read a non-exempt person actually purchasing a >10 capacity magazine already located in California is not, per se, a crime, even though there are still any number of people in and out of government who seem to think it is. The act of offering such a magazine for sale, as the Craigslist post seems to, is a crime assuming for the sake of the discussion that the poster would be delivering an assembled mag with a capacity > 10.

Makes me think it's not a sting, but rather some less than well informed / doesn't give a crap gun owner trying to move some old stuff he doesn't want or need anymore.

But that's just my non-lawyerly opinion.

shooterfpga
10-13-2011, 12:48 PM
Not it isn't entrapment. I've read several times about people who were being "tailgated" by a vehicle at night. They sped up because they "thought that it was dangerous" only to have the red and blue lights activate.

Their theory was that it was entrapment because the officer created a dangerous condition and "forced" them to speed. It doesn't seem to hold up in traffic court because you can slow down to force the tailgater to slow down, or you can pull over and let them pass.

i agree with you, out of nowhere a car came flying up behind me riding my bumper. i thought ok, just another jerk that wants to get off this street faster, ill speed up a bit not to piss them off, since it is a one lane road. as soon as i did that, they lit me up. her reason for pulling me over, was she saw me take a corner too fast and that i was speeding, however, another car from the second lane going straight obviously was speeding and passed me and 4 other cars up. anyways, she let me go with a warning, just thought it was funny she tried to say i was speeding, as i watch my gauge and make sure im not.

Dutch3
10-13-2011, 4:51 PM
Your department may not, but others can and have, including the DEA. Published fact, you don't have to take my word for it.

Your department's guidelines are not necessarily consistent with every department or agency out there.

BATFE, for example. They didn't use counterfeit guns for their "sting" operation and people died.

Sorry for the OT, carry on.

BannedinBritain
10-13-2011, 6:30 PM
We do not sell drugs....on a buy bust operation you use counterfeit narcotics which are harmless. Can you imagine the liability if somebody used Police Dept drugs and died. The customers are arrested for attempt possession which is still a felony.

Selling "counterfeit narcotics" in and of itself...is a crime. If I sell someone a baggie of sugar I represent as cocain, I've committed a crime...yes? Police can do it "for the greater good" is all. There will always be those who cry foul at the power police have...I myself often have great reservations about just how much power they have...and the way the "system" is set up regulate that power...but it is what it is.

tileguy
10-13-2011, 6:37 PM
what a bunch of paranoid nuts. i it was local i buy it for 10 dollars. i would go to his house ask him if i can empty the mag take it apart and then have him sell it to me as a parts kit, end of story 100% legal.

nicknuke7
10-13-2011, 6:40 PM
If this is the case, how can the police catch speeders?

People who get caught, can sometimes claim entrapment...but it depends on the scenario though:

"Entrapment holds if all three conditions are fulfilled:

-The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.

-Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.

-The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.

nhanson
10-13-2011, 6:46 PM
As Gene points out:

PC 31. All persons concerned in the commission of a crime, whether it
be felony or misdemeanor, and whether they directly commit the act
constituting the offense, or aid and abet in its commission, or, not
being present, have advised and encouraged its commission, and all
persons counseling, advising, or encouraging children under the age
of fourteen years, or persons who are mentally incapacitated, to
commit any crime, or who, by fraud, contrivance, or force, occasion
the drunkenness of another for the purpose of causing him to commit
any crime, or who, by threats, menaces, command, or coercion, compel
another to commit any crime, are principals in any crime so
committed.

All you need is someone with the resources to take it to court.

Darklyte27
10-13-2011, 6:54 PM
maybe its 30 rifle magazines, gun world etc :stuart:

Shotgun Man
10-13-2011, 7:29 PM
The test for entrapment varies across jurisdictions. In CA, the test for entrapment is the most restrictive-- Did law enforcement engage in conduct that would induce a normally law-abiding person to commit a crime?

Generally, a court will rule that this test is not met, as law-abiding people supposedly do not commit crimes.

October
10-13-2011, 7:42 PM
I bought a car with the ability to go 130mph

Conspiracy / intent to drive recklessly :D

DERP DERP

lol

/thread

eta34
10-14-2011, 12:56 PM
The Police cannot break the law to enforce the law. It's not a sting.

Care to provide some case law or criminal statutes to back this claim up?

Cali-Shooter
10-14-2011, 1:29 PM
It can't be a sting operation, it's not illegal to buy a 30 round magazine.

But is is illegal to "offer for sale" a "high-capacity" magazine, despite it not being illegal to actually buy one. The seller, if caught, faces a possible misdemeanor or felony charge for doing so.

Keep your noses clean people, stay far far away from anything that smells fishy, your loss of gun rights won't be worth it for a magazine.

Meplat
10-14-2011, 1:42 PM
The Police cannot break the law to enforce the law. It's not a sting.

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

curtisfong
10-14-2011, 1:48 PM
Cops aren't above the law. They just have an entirely different set of laws that apply to them. They can do things that would land you in prison, not because they can break the law, but because it is entirely legal for them to do things that you can't.

Why? Because politicians (like Jerry Brown) "listen to law enforcement".

Wherryj
10-20-2011, 7:50 AM
I bought a car with the ability to go 130mph

Conspiracy / intent to drive recklessly :D

DERP DERP

Your car can only do 130? Mine will do 155-computer limited, not drag limited. I guess that I'm part of an even bigger conspiracy?

I also know a few places here in CA, even "dealers", who will remove that limiter in exchange for payment. This conspiracy stuff runs deep.

Kid Stanislaus
10-20-2011, 8:34 AM
So if somebody offers you some illegal drugs it is safe to buy them b/c "the police cannot break the law to enforce the law" and therefore you know it is not a sting?

In the real world the police break the law to enforce the law in a wholesale fashion. (I base that opinion on my experience living on the planet for 68 years and following such events)