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DeanJohnson
10-12-2011, 5:52 PM
I would be giddy as a school girl if CGF decided to go after the asinine law that makes a collapsible baton illegal...

I own, enjoy, and know how to use my firearms. But what I worry about is not that the Red Dawn Wolverines will tell me I should have stored more magazines - it is that I will have Bernhard Goetz saying... "Yeah, tell me about it."

For you younglings out there... "According to Goetz's statement to the police, approximately ten seconds later Canty asked him, "How are you?" Goetz responded, "Fine". According to Goetz, the four men gave signals to each other, and shortly thereafter Canty and Barry Allen rose from their seats and moved over to the left of Goetz, blocking Goetz off from the other passengers in the car. By Goetz's account, Canty then said, "Give me five dollars."

I feel confident that I can talk-down, outwit, or successfully grapple one ne'er-do-well. But I don't feel confident facing down two, or three scalawags who have to save face with their friends, or are in a chemically altered state. I can't shoot three people because they make me feel threatened, I have to be in reasonable fear of an aggravated battery. I don't like to bluff. I don't want to point my gun where I don't want to shoot. And, even though I love my Emerson, I don't think stabbing a group of people is a good plan.

I think a small group of drunk jerks is the most likely reason I would have to use force. I think the best response would be to take out an Asp, open it, and hold it in a ready to strike position. Then if someone tries to assault me, or mine, I can respond appropriately.

Is there really no path to some sort of baton permit system? I know I can get a permit to carry one of my pistols (My friends from my LEO days are running the place now.) But what I want is a permit to carry a baton. Yes, I have pepper spray (It is bulky, lame, hates wind, and folks learn to tolerate it.) I know I could try and EDC a Taser X3. :)

It would be a better world if law abiding folks could carry a baton.

okglockman
10-12-2011, 5:59 PM
Ever heard the saying, "Don't bring a knife to a gun show"? I think the same applies here. The felon will likely have a gun against your baton. All I can say is good luck! If you beat someone to death with a baton you are surely going to be charged with at least manslaughter. If I shoot someone to death in self defense with a pistol, I will not be charged with anything. It would depend on the actual circumstance, but the baton is only useful in situations requiring less than lethal force. If I have to pull something I'd rather be able to quickly make a decision between less lethal and lethal if necessary....the baton doesn't give me that option.... Good luck with your baton!

Chief-7700
10-12-2011, 6:30 PM
Do what you need to do! Just remember the laws of California may be not be in you favor on doing what you feel you must do.

cmaynes
10-12-2011, 6:41 PM
CCW.

accept no substitute.

situational awareness trumps all other weapons.

Paul S
10-12-2011, 8:25 PM
But what I want is a permit to carry a baton

No such animal for Joe & Josephine citizen. At least not in California.
Trained and certified security guard...OK...at least on the job. If the baton is not stored at the job office great care must be used in transporting to and from work.

Peace officers of course are OK and a certified baton instructor is OK...at the training site...and again care must be exercised when traveling to and from if you are no longer a sworn officer.

And the advice not to bring a knife to a gun fight is good.

BigDogatPlay
10-12-2011, 8:45 PM
Trained and certified security guard...OK...at least on the job. If the baton is not stored at the job office great care must be used in transporting to and from work.

I call shenanigans here.... if the guard is not doing anything he shouldn't be doing he is perfectly legal carrying his defensive tools to and from his work. Gun, baton, chemical agent and at very little risk of adverse contact from LE... at least in my experience and opinion.

Peace officers of course are OK and a certified baton instructor is OK...at the training site...and again care must be exercised when traveling to and from if you are no longer a sworn officer.

FWIW... most peace officers I know don't want to carry their baton to and from, I know I didn't. Those who take home an assigned vehicle or motor would not fall into that bucket as they'll be in uniform anyway and, as such, should be carrying all their tools.

Former or retired LEO, that is not a DT / baton instructor, doesn't have an exemption. While they almost certainly wouldn't get jammed up if they weren't doing something stupid, there is that possibility.

To the OP, California still considers an unauthorized baton a felony and an unauthorized firearm (generally) a misdemeanor. I don't really foresee the state authorizing them for those of us who are either out of the LEO business or who just want to protect themselves.

But that's just me here.

any2cards
10-12-2011, 9:17 PM
what does that really leave?

walk softly and with your 2 favorite dobermans? And good luck in some cities where explicit breeds of dogs are forbidden, much less insurance policies or renters permissions for breeds that are deemed possibly dangerous. I've had 4 German Shepperds, 2 dobermans, 2 pit bulls and you know what the only dog that has ever bit me?... a freakin dachshund!


We need to continue to challenge all of these laws restricting law abiding citizens from *anything*

I'm far less sympathetic about some liberal who is afraid of me exercising my right to defend than the criminal who counts on it. At least with the thug I know exactly where I stand. (unarmed, bent over, and pants around the ankle if the liberals have their way...)

CA is out of control :(

Patrick Aherne
10-12-2011, 9:55 PM
Whip out a baton against four guys and you are asking for it to get shoved up your butt to make you a human popsicle. ASPs suck for hitting someone, the only reason we carry them is it's easier to carry one than a 26" hardwood baton. There it is.

Solidux
10-12-2011, 9:57 PM
www.bsis.ca.gov

gunsmith
10-12-2011, 10:26 PM
I was armed security with baton cert, according to my excellent instructor-collapsible batons are worthless.

The Goetz situation required deadly force, that's why he only was convicted of possession.

2 or more people against me? I carry & will probably try to stop the attack with my sidearm.

I pulled a gun on one guy that attacked me because he was twice my size, fight was ended with no one getting hurt .( or arrested )

You imply you were once LE, you were not taught escalation of force?

Databyter
10-12-2011, 11:19 PM
But what I want is a permit to carry a baton

No such animal for Joe & Josephine citizen. At least not in California.
Trained and certified security guard...OK...at least on the job. If the baton is not stored at the job office great care must be used in transporting to and from work.

Peace officers of course are OK and a certified baton instructor is OK...at the training site...and again care must be exercised when traveling to and from if you are no longer a sworn officer.

And the advice not to bring a knife to a gun fight is good.

They are even saying the longer Maglights are weapons now for security guards and they have to get a baton permit to carry flashlights!!

DeanJohnson
10-13-2011, 7:04 PM
:facepalm:

Ok, sorry, let me try again.

I think there are many more circumstances where I would need a 'less-lethal' weapon, than a lethal weapon. (See the orange section of the diagram.)

There really are no good options for a law-abiding citizen to carry a 'less-lethal' weapon. (Pepper spray is unreliable, and Tasers are too bulky.)

I wish there was a "Cal-Less-Lethal.org" to help the legislators realize if they only allow the carrying of deadly weapons, people will be likely to use them when they should not. (Really? You think that correct response to a group of pan-handlers is to beat them to death?)

(FWIW, I graduated first in my class at the academy, I know it you possess a baton its a felony, and if you carry, without permission, a loaded/concealed pistol, its a misdemeanor.)

:facepalm:

gunsmith
10-13-2011, 9:19 PM
if you don't punch at least one pan-handler a day then the terrorist have won!
;-)

nums
10-13-2011, 10:36 PM
simple wooden cane might do the trick

E Pluribus Unum
10-13-2011, 11:04 PM
Billys (batons), nunchaku, saps, shuriken, et cetera are illegal because they do not want the criminal element to have cheap means of legal self-OFFENSE.

Why do you want a baton? You are likely to cause serious bodily injury or death with a baton as well. You might as well carry a gun just in case and use CS spray as a non-lethal alternative.

Joewy
10-14-2011, 5:45 AM
Billys (batons), nunchaku, saps, shuriken, et cetera are illegal because they do not want the criminal element to have cheap means of legal self-OFFENSE.

Why do you want a baton? You are likely to cause serious bodily injury or death with a baton as well. You might as well carry a gun just in case and use CS spray as a non-lethal alternative.


They are actually illegal because Bruce Lee made it look easy to wipe out platoons of police and soliders with them in the movies. Reality is a different story. But like many laws in california they are based on fantasy instead of reality.

woodsman
10-14-2011, 5:55 AM
Whip out a baton against four guys and you are asking for it to get shoved up your butt to make you a human popsicle. ASPs suck for hitting someone, the only reason we carry them is it's easier to carry one than a 26" hardwood baton. There it is.

LOL - Human Popsicle....:)

MatrixCPA
10-14-2011, 9:13 AM
They are even saying the longer Maglights are weapons now for security guards and they have to get a baton permit to carry flashlights!!

Miller Incident (2004) - http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-15-lapd-flashlight_x.htm

2005 Update - http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/06/local/me-flashlights6

Pelican - http://www.policeone.com/police-products/duty-gear/flashlights/articles/1759367-IACP-Special-LAPD-builds-a-flashlight/

Final Product - http://pelican.com/lights_detail.php?recordID=7060

Uriah02
10-14-2011, 10:59 AM
3 unarmed vs 1 armed = (probable) disparity of force, likely go in your favor.

El Larry
10-14-2011, 11:10 AM
I've had 4 German Shepperds, 2 dobermans, 2 pit bulls and you know what the only dog that has ever bit me?... a freakin dachshund!

This made me laugh my A** off!

loose_electron
10-14-2011, 11:27 AM
They are even saying the longer Maglights are weapons now for security guards and they have to get a baton permit to carry flashlights!!

You can carry the maglight, and use it as an defensive weapon, and then after the fact plead ignorance, can not do that with a baton.

Pelicandriver
10-14-2011, 12:55 PM
Cold-Steel-African-Walking-37-Inch (http://www.amazon.com/Cold-Steel-African-Walking-37-Inch/dp/B0013K607I/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1CT5PB34XU8CQ&colid=1ZWHNABDL9JYE)