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View Full Version : Glendora PD shoots Pit Bulls to save a life


RedFord150
10-11-2011, 11:24 AM
http://www.sgvtribune.com/ci_19080453

The above is a link to an article in the San Gabriel Valley Tribune.
A retired Fire Chief was out for his morning walk when he was attacked by 2 Pit Bulls. The citizen was seriously injured before a Glendora PD officer used his car to injure 1 dog and ended up shooting both dogs with his handgun.
The fire chief believes the officer, on routine patrol, saved his life.
I believe that if the officer had not 'happened' by, the man could have died. If a citizen made the decision to shoot the 2 vicious deadly dogs in the street, that citizen would most likely be charged with a crime.
If the citizen decided to intervene without using a gun, his own life would be in danger.
Any thoughts?

hnoppenberger
10-11-2011, 11:26 AM
SSS

Kosuki
10-11-2011, 11:32 AM
Well if a normal citizen would had even taken the gun out side and shot the dogs he'd be lucky if he would not be shot for having a weapon in his hands...

drunktank
10-11-2011, 12:12 PM
I think this was off Bonnie Cove. My buddy heard shot(s) fired and a swarm of police and animal control. Glad the officer was close. Sa to know if a citizen saved him with a firearm that there'd be hell to pay with the courts, PETA, bleeding hearts, etc.

Dark Mod
10-11-2011, 12:15 PM
Good for the cop!

golfrj
10-11-2011, 12:21 PM
I think this was off Bonnie Cove. My buddy heard shot(s) fired and a swarm of police and animal control. Glad the officer was close. Sa to know if a citizen saved him with a firearm that there'd be hell to pay with the courts, PETA, bleeding hearts, etc.


I know there are tons of folks that Love those Pit Bull Doggies, BUT I am NOT one ( I know, I know, if you raise them with love they will be Wonderful Doggies,**** B.S.****).. Everytime I hear of an attack it involves a Pit, maybe we should consider not breeding any more of these Mentally Unbalanced animals, one minute they are loving pets, the Next Minute they are at someones throat... JMHO

resident-shooter
10-11-2011, 12:35 PM
Shoot every last one of these dangerous killer dogs. I am sick of hearing stories of them attacking people. I seriously dont care about this "raise with love and care" bullshivism. If u want one, take it to an uninhabited island and then love and live with it, but keep it out of populated areas. Who in the right mind would want a dog that was bred to be as aggressive and dangerous as possible???

hkdad
10-11-2011, 12:42 PM
Shoot every last one of these dangerous killer dogs. I am sick of hearing stories of them attacking people. I seriously dont care about this "raise with love and care" bullshivism. If u want one, take it to an uninhabited island and then love and live with it, but keep it out of populated areas. Who in the right mind would want a dog that was bred to be as aggressive and dangerous as possible???

let them all run loose in a big closed arena... let's see what happens... :boxing_smiley:

timmyb21
10-11-2011, 12:44 PM
So, I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes.

I don't like pits. I will never own one. But that doesn't mean we should be able to ban them. It's the same thing as the gun grabbers. Spread FUD, scare people, say it's for the children, you know the routine. Kill problem animals, not all of them.

glock7
10-11-2011, 12:46 PM
let them all run loose in a big closed arena... let's see what happens... :boxing_smiley:

yes michael vick...lol

Maddog5150
10-11-2011, 12:53 PM
Americas "Nanny" dog of peace strikes again :rolleyes:

sequoia_nomad
10-11-2011, 12:54 PM
So, I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes.

I don't like pits. I will never own one. But that doesn't mean we should be able to ban them. It's the same thing as the gun grabbers. Spread FUD, scare people, say it's for the children, you know the routine. Kill problem animals, not all of them.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Lots of immaturity on this thread, like a PE class full of 7th grade boys.

Chuck67
10-11-2011, 12:58 PM
If a citizen made the decision to shoot the 2 vicious deadly dogs in the street, that citizen would most likely be charged with a crime.

I could totally see an honest citizen with a gun being sued by the owner of the dogs for shooting and killing the dogs. Or even worse wounding the dogs and being forced to pay for the vet bill. I dont put anything past californians.

Maddog5150
10-11-2011, 12:58 PM
HUGE difference between a dog and a gun. My firearms dont need to be fed, they dont need to be petted, they dont have a mind of thier own. It doesnt decided to get up and maul a retired firechied, a four year old or kill its owner who raised it with love.
Dogs on the other hand have minds of thier own. Start lumping dogs and guns together and the gun grabbers will smile a little wider.

johnthomas
10-11-2011, 12:59 PM
I know there are tons of folks that Love those Pit Bull Doggies, BUT I am NOT one ( I know, I know, if you raise them with love they will be Wonderful Doggies,**** B.S.****).. Everytime I hear of an attack it involves a Pit, maybe we should consider not breeding any more of these Mentally Unbalanced animals, one minute they are loving pets, the Next Minute they are at someones throat... JMHO

Before you get flamed, I agree with you one hundred percent. One thing folks don't understand is that if your dog, pit or not, bites someone, you are liable. If you are a renter and a dog bites someone on that property, the landlord of the property and you, are liable.There are other breeds that attack, but if other breeds are so vicious, why is the pit bred for fighting and the greyhound bred for racing? The physical and mental breeding makes them the perfect killing machine. They are born and bred to kill with a button to push to turn them into a killer, it is obvious that the button gets pushed for no reason and folks get maimed and killed.

TheExpertish
10-11-2011, 1:01 PM
So, I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes.

I don't like pits. I will never own one. But that doesn't mean we should be able to ban them. It's the same thing as the gun grabbers. Spread FUD, scare people, say it's for the children, you know the routine. Kill problem animals, not all of them.

I agree with this 100%. My dog is part pit, lab and who knows what else. I never would have rescued him had he been full pit. I have a family to think about and the risk of taking on one of these "purebred" (aka INbred) bi-polar animals is not worth it. Not to mention I care enough about my neighbors that I would not want to go to jail or have to fire sale my guns to pay for a civil suite. I don't get dog lovers period, but advocates of these breed need to educate the breeders and dogs, not the general public.

lawboy
10-11-2011, 1:06 PM
Sad story but great outcome.
I do not think that a private citizen would have been vilified under these circumstances. Within the last two years we had a similar incident in Vacaville where a man came out of his house and shot a dog dead that was attacking a woman in the street. He was widely praised on the local news by neighbors, the responding officers, and the woman who was being attacked.

21SF
10-11-2011, 1:11 PM
Shot the idiot in this thread, how about if someone said the same about a certain race of people?

"Every time I hear of a murder or robbery its those damn _______ ...."

TheExpertish
10-11-2011, 1:16 PM
Shot the idiot in this thread, how about if someone said the same about a certain race of people?

"Every time I hear of a murder or robbery its those damn _______ ...."

Ummm, can we not get things twisted here? These are dogs we are talking about. Dogs with a proven track record with issues with overbreeding, inbreeding, and poor treatment buy ignorant owners. Name one "race" that compares and you'd have an argument that might actually hold muster. In light of that I'd keep your comments more constructive instead of biased and baseless.

scarville
10-11-2011, 1:20 PM
I think this was off Bonnie Cove. My buddy heard shot(s) fired and a swarm of police and animal control. Glad the officer was close. Sa to know if a citizen saved him with a firearm that there'd be hell to pay with the courts, PETA, bleeding hearts, etc.
Sunflower runs parallel to Bonnie Cove about 1/2 mile to the east. I know the area and this doesn't surprise me at all. There are some <redacted> living there that most of the other residents wish would go away.

JaeOne3345
10-11-2011, 1:22 PM
arshole pitbulls have arshole owners who raise them to be arshole dogs.

Every time you hear of an attack it involves a pit? If that is true, that is only because arsholes get pits with the intentions of raising them to be arshole dogs. It isn't because the pitbull is a horrible creature by nature, sorry.

They should ban all pits? You sound like gun grabbers who say we should all have our guns taken away because ******* owners used their firearms in an improper manner. Don't target all pitbull owners.

Target the ones who breed/raise arshole pitbulls, like those in this case. In this case, the dogs needed to be taken down. But please don't say that all pitbulls need to be put down because a few specific owners are irresponsible.

Why should a responsible pit owner be punished because of a few idiots? Should all of our guns be taken away because of a few idiots?

People love to point the finger, but remember there are always three pointed back at you.

Maddog5150
10-11-2011, 1:23 PM
What about that story several months back where the pits who were raised right attacked and killed one of its masters who was pregnant?

SoEm0
10-11-2011, 1:26 PM
I agree with this 100%. My dog is part pit, lab and who knows what else. I never would have rescued him had he been full pit. I have a family to think about and the risk of taking on one of these "purebred" (aka INbred) bi-polar animals is not worth it. Not to mention I care enough about my neighbors that I would not want to go to jail or have to fire sale my guns to pay for a civil suite. I don't get dog lovers period, but advocates of these breed need to educate the breeders and dogs, not the general public.

Lol are you kidding? Labs have a pretty good track record for biting humans too. I worked at a animal rescue for a while. I can say in my experience I have been bit by labs far more than pits (keep in mind this is my experience). I have never been bitten by a pit, I own 3 and have helped to rescue hundreds. I used to own labs, and have rescued tons of them too. I have been bit by 6 labs.

Yes pits can be deadly, however this is primarily due to their breeding. Tons of people think they can make the perfect pit and that is why we have so many. The old blood lines were great dogs but all of that is muddled now. I still stand by them being great dogs.

Dhena81
10-11-2011, 1:29 PM
I think Pits used to be a good breed now you have to do serious research before you buy one. Ever since all the gangster types thought its tough to have a pit the breed has been in serious decline but its not the only breed in decline. I own a GSD people aren't as afraid of her but they have the highest number of bites a year but they don't get bad press. You have to kind of be an idiot to own a pit now days because if your dog does anything bad no matter what it will be the pits fault and your liability because of stories like this.

21SF
10-11-2011, 1:33 PM
Ummm, can we not get things twisted here? These are dogs we are talking about. Dogs with a proven track record with issues with overbreeding, inbreeding, and poor treatment buy ignorant owners. Name one "race" that compares and you'd have an argument that might actually hold muster. In light of that I'd keep your comments more constructive instead of biased and baseless.

Replace Overbreeding, inbreeding, poor treatment with........

Selective breeding, slavery, and forceful re-location.....amongst other things

Lol @ biased i dont have a pitbull or mix.

Its just really funny to here people who want "freedoms" be so close minded and ready to ban other things out of fear.....just like the brady's

Hey maybe you can start a "foundation" against EPB "evil pit bulls"

Doheny
10-11-2011, 1:34 PM
If a citizen made the decision to shoot the 2 vicious deadly dogs in the street, that citizen would most likely be charged with a crime.

I think that maybe be a bit far-reaching. There are too many different scenarios; for instance, what if the shooter saw the attack from his front window, grabs his gun, goes out and shoots the dogs? What if the shooter had a LTC? In both those cases, I can't imagine a D.A. charging the shooter.

If someone was illegally carrying and did the shooting, they "might" be given a pass by the D.A. It's hard to say.

Now if it was a felon with a gun that did the shooting, that would be a different story.

akjunkie
10-11-2011, 1:36 PM
Shoot every last one of these dangerous killer dogs. I am sick of hearing stories of them attacking people. I seriously dont care about this "raise with love and care" bullshivism. If u want one, take it to an uninhabited island and then love and live with it, but keep it out of populated areas. Who in the right mind would want a dog that was bred to be as aggressive and dangerous as possible???

+1, I hate them too.

esartori
10-11-2011, 1:40 PM
My Dog is half Pitbull / half Rhodesian Ridgeback. He is the sweetest dog ever. and has never bit anyone (he is 9 years old now). I 100% agree it's the owners, not the dog. I will believe that certain dogs might have a predisposition to become violent IF raised that way, but not if treated well.

JaeOne3345
10-11-2011, 1:43 PM
Its just really funny to here people who want "freedoms" be so close minded and ready to ban other things out of fear.....just like the brady's

Irony at its best.

"All pitbulls should be stripped from their owners because a few people are bad owners."

vs.

"All guns should be taken away from their owners because a few people used their guns wrong."

akjunkie
10-11-2011, 1:44 PM
Cant find it, but there was an article on yahoo news 2 months ago.

Husband comes home and finds his 8 month pregnant wife lying on living floor, DEAD.

Maul to death by their beautiful, loving, nurtured, well mannered, harmless, friendly, adorable, Pit Bull that they loving raised for Years since it was a puppy.

JeremyS
10-11-2011, 1:45 PM
Ummm, can we not get things twisted here? These are dogs we are talking about. Dogs with a proven track record with issues with overbreeding, inbreeding, and poor treatment buy ignorant owners. Name one "race" that compares and you'd have an argument that might actually hold muster. In light of that I'd keep your comments more constructive instead of biased and baseless.
I think he's right on. Saying that Pit Bulls as a breed are inherantly dangerous is the exact same as claiming that a race of people is. In direct answer to your challenge, if you look at violent crime statistics by race or inmate population by race, you absolutely will see that a certain race(s) is represented in an extremely disproportionate ratio to that race's % of the general US population.

Pit bulls make up a much larger percentage of the dog population if you narrow the population down to large dogs capable of hurting a person. If you put them in a group that includes every breed in America, you're also including a whole ton of small, harmless breeds even if those breeds do try to bite and attack people. Pit bull mixes are the most common large "breed" in the country. I'd bet if gadsdenarmory's pit/lab/other mutt mix bit someone, the media would simply call it a pit bull.

A couple of huskies killed someone in Seattle this year, IIRC, and since I've lived in San Francisco there have been a number of dog attacks, including ones resulting in the death of a person(s), that were not pits or pit mixes at all. For instance, this one (http://articles.sfgate.com/2001-01-27/news/17581463_1_marjorie-knoller-s-pacific-heights-dogs-victim-s-throat) popped up first.

I honestly believe that a lot of dogs either snap and hurt people intentionally or are playing rough and do not know the damage they are doing. I believe that pit bull incidents like this end badly because the dogs can be so incredibly powerful. I think we hear about them the most because 1) the media loves to villify them and 2) there are A LOT of pit bulls and pit bull mixes.

Just like it's almost always a Glock in murders talked about on the media. Just like when a kid drowns in his family swimming pool in San Jose you don't hear about it in New York, but if a kid accidently shoots himself it's national news for a week. I can't believe strong 2nd amendment advocates would turn around and say "ban all pit bulls" or anything else because of a few bad seeds.

JaeOne3345
10-11-2011, 1:46 PM
Cant find it, but there was an article on yahoo news 2 months ago.

Husband comes home and finds his 8 month pregnant wife lying on living floor, DEAD.

Maul to death by their beautiful, loving, nurtured, well mannered, harmless, friendly, adorable, Pit Bull that they loving raised for Years since it was a puppy.

How do you, we, or anyone else know how that dog was actually raised behind close doors?

You don't.

Yahoo news? News period? The media period? Come on now. Let's actually weigh the validity of the source.

melensdad
10-11-2011, 1:48 PM
. . . I believe that if the officer had not 'happened' by, the man could have died. If a citizen made the decision to shoot the 2 vicious deadly dogs in the street, that citizen would most likely be charged with a crime.
If the citizen decided to intervene without using a gun, his own life would be in danger.
Any thoughts?

Yes, I'm glad I now live in Indiana where I can carry a gun. Openly or Concealed. Loaded :facepalm:

RedFord150
10-11-2011, 1:49 PM
I think that maybe be a bit far-reaching. ...What if the shooter had a LTC? ...
If someone was illegally carrying and did the shooting, they "might" be given a pass by the D.A. It's hard to say. ....

I think by 'LTC' (License To Carry?), you are referring to a CCW Permit. Glendora is in LA County. You have a better shot at winning the lottery than getting a a CCW in LAC. You are probably correct in that a CCW would not be charged. Unfortunately, the chance of someone with a CCW being nearby is less than an LEO on Patrol coming by.
As for the other observations, your guess is just as good as mine. This is the problem. 'Common sense' tells us that we should take the shot if we needed to. Obviously, this refers to a clear-cut case of saving a human life, not getting rid of an annoying dog. Unfortunately, the shooter needs to hesitate because an aggressive DA could screw him under. What if the aggressive pet was attacking another dog or cat. Is the shooting still justified? Again, what about an aggressive DA deciding to prosecute what seemed like a good 'Common Sense' decision at the time?
These are real world events. They happen frequently. Our representatives should clear the way for someone to make the right decision and not worry about lawsuits or jail.
As for this incident, I hope the victim finds out who owns these dogs and sues him. I also hope the Dog owner gets prosecuted. I don't care if a person owns a Pit Bull or a Toy Poodle, the dog needs too be in a fenced yard or on a leash. If the dog is contained, we do not have to worry about what breed he is.

esartori
10-11-2011, 1:54 PM
Irony at its best.

"All pitbulls should be stripped from their owners because a few people are bad owners."

vs.

"All guns should be taken away from their owners because a few people used their guns wrong."

I 100% agree! how many of you have heard people uninformed about guns talk about "cop killer bullets" or "evil assault rifles" or "deadly Glocks"? And we laugh because we can't understand how asinine some common citizens are about firearms. Most of these claims come from events publicized by the media and taken to be "fact". People hear this FUD and spread it. I think its ridiculous that so many people are so quick to ban pitbulls because of some attacks and yet also feel victimized by the gun laws in CA.

I mean people saying "every pitbull should be shot" sound exactly the same as those who say "guns should be illegal". If that is not hypocritical then I don't know what is...

21SF
10-11-2011, 1:54 PM
Shoot every last one of these dangerous killer dogsgun toters. I am sick of hearing stories of them attackingshooting people. I seriously dont care about this "raise with love and care"handles with care and training bullshivism. If u want one, take it to an uninhabited island and then love and live with it, but keep it out of populated areas. Who in the right mind would want a dog gun that was bred made to be as aggressive powerful and dangerous as possible???


Lol

esartori
10-11-2011, 1:57 PM
^^^^ EXACTLY!

hkdad
10-11-2011, 2:02 PM
Yes, I'm glad I now live in Indiana where I can carry a gun. Openly or Concealed. Loaded :facepalm:

i envy you! :)

rt66paul
10-11-2011, 2:05 PM
Petey on Our Gang Comedy was a pit bull. Any dog can be trained to be vicious, chihuahuas and pekes bite more often, they just don't do as much damage. Most dogs bite because they are scared or else trained to do so. If they would start shooting the owners, maybe that would fix the problem.

These dogs are left to watch babies and children crawl all over them, with no problems.

It is this whole nanny state bs, those are bad dogs, bad cars, bad motorcycles, bad firearms, let's just make them all illegal! How about enforcing the law? Someone had to have called about these dogs running to neighborhood - how about dispatching an animal control officer(Is in the same building as the PD in Glendora). When we call about a dog hit in the street, or a skunk or whatever, chances are that it will be there 4 or 5 days later. It seems that the only dogs that they do take off the street are puppies or small dogs that just got out, not the troublesome ones.

It is always the same old story, we will do it if we can fine them, otherwise, how about you going out there and scooping up the dead skunk - we don't have anyone who can do it now.

JeremyS
10-11-2011, 2:07 PM
^^^^ EXACTLY!
+1


It's the same thing as buying into the media saying, "the only reason anybody would ever want hollow point cop killer bullets and assault clips that hold more than 10 rounds is to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible" and believe that hook, line, and sinker. And the media has said that exact thing.

How can you gun owners just go along with a campaign against a specific breed of dogs coming from the same people who so blatantly lie and mislead the public on firearms, politics, and whatever else.

Chuck67
10-11-2011, 2:13 PM
Irony at its best.

"All pitbulls should be stripped from their owners because a few people are bad owners."

vs.

"All guns should be taken away from their owners because a few people used their guns wrong."

^ I agree with you 100%

SDBlaster
10-11-2011, 2:16 PM
I know there are tons of folks that Love those Pit Bull Doggies, BUT I am NOT one ( I know, I know, if you raise them with love they will be Wonderful Doggies,**** B.S.****).. Everytime I hear of an attack it involves a Pit, maybe we should consider not breeding any more of these Mentally Unbalanced animals, one minute they are loving pets, the Next Minute they are at someones throat... JMHO


I find it weird that someone who is on this site ( and wants other to support their gun rights, which some people would consider to be dangerous) would have an opinion like this. Why is this any different from someone saying that guns kill people so nobody should have the right to own one? Maybe, the only thing mentally unbalanced would be when someone wants others to support their rights while you don't support others??? Couldn't some say some gun owners are "loving" then the next minute at someone's throat? Maybe ***BS*** isn't as black and white as some would like.Just my op

Dhena81
10-11-2011, 2:56 PM
Lol

That was good

Jimmy310
10-11-2011, 3:13 PM
My Dog is half Pitbull / half Rhodesian Ridgeback. He is the sweetest dog ever. and has never bit anyone (he is 9 years old now). I 100% agree it's the owners, not the dog. I will believe that certain dogs might have a predisposition to become violent IF raised that way, but not if treated well.

does he look like this? http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac319/jbusman84/26540_571097673862_34100144_33111615_622620_n.jpg

Zion Lion
10-11-2011, 3:18 PM
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/320489_10150396385207784_786972783_10268911_564170 8_n.jpg

Toolbox X
10-11-2011, 3:21 PM
Kill them. Kill them all.

Pit bulls are exactly like paroled murderers running around with guns. I don't want either of them around me or my family. Ever. I don't care how 'harmless' the breed is.

But don't take my word for it. Ask this guy. He's been a huge advocate of educating people how 'misunderstood' pit bulls are. He had two loving pit bulls. Never abused, only caressed with love. And he came home from work the other day to find his dead pregnant wife, killed by their loving, misunderstood pit bull.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/08/15/Pit-bull-kills-pregnant-Calif-woman/UPI-96531313429076/

I don't want violent criminals running around with guns, I don't want people to be able to buy RPG's at the corner hardware store, and I don't want pit bulls anywhere around people, especially in my neighborhood, around my kids.

Kill them. Kill them all.

Zartan
10-11-2011, 3:23 PM
What caliber was used? # of shots fired? Duty weapon? :nopity:

21SF
10-11-2011, 3:31 PM
Kill them. Kill them all.

Pit bulls are exactly like paroled murderers running around with guns. I don't want either of them around me or my family. Ever. I don't care how 'harmless' the breed is.

But don't take my word for it. Ask this guy. He's been a huge advocate of educating people how 'misunderstood' pit bulls are. He had two loving pit bulls. Never abused, only caressed with love. And he came home from work the other day to find his dead pregnant wife, killed by their loving, misunderstood pit bull.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/08/15/Pit-bull-kills-pregnant-Calif-woman/UPI-96531313429076/

I don't want violent criminals running around with guns, I don't want people to be able to buy RPG's at the corner hardware store, and I don't want pit bulls anywhere around people, especially in my neighborhood, around my kids.

Kill them. Kill them all.

LOL, at least your name fits you well.

Zion Lion
10-11-2011, 3:32 PM
Remember that pitbulls comes from the Molosser breed. Of which some may look similar. For instance boxer mixes can tend to look like pitbulls. Along with American bulldogs, AmStaffs, and Presa Canarios to name a few. The news and media like to classify all of them as Pitbulls. A group of dogs shouldn't be banned just because the media likes to stereotype all mid/large size dogs that look like pitbulls as "pitbulls". That's like saying all "African American or Latino's are dangerous" since majority of the California Correctional facilities are dominated by those two nationalities. That would be ignorant and wrong to do. I just say be educated.I'm sure you'll believe in what you want to believe in. Just my .02 cents.

JaeOne3345
10-11-2011, 3:33 PM
Kill them. Kill them all.

Pit bulls are exactly like paroled murderers running around with guns. I don't want either of them around me or my family. Ever. I don't care how 'harmless' the breed is.

But don't take my word for it. Ask this guy. He's been a huge advocate of educating people how 'misunderstood' pit bulls are. He had two loving pit bulls. Never abused, only caressed with love. And he came home from work the other day to find his dead pregnant wife, killed by their loving, misunderstood pit bull.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/08/15/Pit-bull-kills-pregnant-Calif-woman/UPI-96531313429076/

I don't want violent criminals running around with guns, I don't want people to be able to buy RPG's at the corner hardware store, and I don't want pit bulls anywhere around people, especially in my neighborhood, around my kids.

Kill them. Kill them all.

How do you, we, or anyone else know how that dog was actually raised behind close doors?

You don't.

Kill them all? Take away all the guns! Sound familiar?

akjunkie
10-11-2011, 3:33 PM
How do you, we, or anyone else know how that dog was actually raised behind close doors?

You don't.

Yahoo news? News period? The media period? Come on now. Let's actually weigh the validity of the source.

I love Pitbulls, I think their DeeLiscious:-)

esartori
10-11-2011, 3:49 PM
does he look like this? http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac319/jbusman84/26540_571097673862_34100144_33111615_622620_n.jpg

close... :)

http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad154/esartori/macho.jpg

RedFord150
10-11-2011, 3:52 PM
What caliber was used? # of shots fired? Duty weapon? :nopity:

Last I heard, GPD carried Glock in .40 S&W. May have changed by now. No idea how many shots fired.

TheExpertish
10-11-2011, 3:53 PM
Replace Overbreeding, inbreeding, poor treatment with........

Selective breeding, slavery, and forceful re-location.....amongst other things

Lol @ biased i dont have a pitbull or mix.

Its just really funny to here people who want "freedoms" be so close minded and ready to ban other things out of fear.....just like the brady's

Hey maybe you can start a "foundation" against EPB "evil pit bulls"

Maybe I misread your post. I am not advocating banning pits whatsoever. I just see their shortcomings due to the negligence of owners and breeders. I think because of that there tends to be a disproportional instance of pits gone bad. I think there is sufficient evidence to show that pits as of right now are a problem for the above reasons and the study a previous poster noted.

I think he's right on. Saying that Pit Bulls as a breed are inherantly dangerous is the exact same as claiming that a race of people is. In direct answer to your challenge, if you look at violent crime statistics by race or inmate population by race, you absolutely will see that a certain race(s) is represented in an extremely disproportionate ratio to that race's % of the general US population.

Pit bulls make up a much larger percentage of the dog population if you narrow the population down to large dogs capable of hurting a person. If you put them in a group that includes every breed in America, you're also including a whole ton of small, harmless breeds even if those breeds do try to bite and attack people. Pit bull mixes are the most common large "breed" in the country. I'd bet if gadsdenarmory's pit/lab/other mutt mix bit someone, the media would simply call it a pit bull.

A couple of huskies killed someone in Seattle this year, IIRC, and since I've lived in San Francisco there have been a number of dog attacks, including ones resulting in the death of a person(s), that were not pits or pit mixes at all. For instance, this one (http://articles.sfgate.com/2001-01-27/news/17581463_1_marjorie-knoller-s-pacific-heights-dogs-victim-s-throat) popped up first.

I honestly believe that a lot of dogs either snap and hurt people intentionally or are playing rough and do not know the damage they are doing. I believe that pit bull incidents like this end badly because the dogs can be so incredibly powerful. I think we hear about them the most because 1) the media loves to villify them and 2) there are A LOT of pit bulls and pit bull mixes.

Just like it's almost always a Glock in murders talked about on the media. Just like when a kid drowns in his family swimming pool in San Jose you don't hear about it in New York, but if a kid accidently shoots himself it's national news for a week. I can't believe strong 2nd amendment advocates would turn around and say "ban all pit bulls" or anything else because of a few bad seeds.

I see what you're saying and I do agree. However, want I don't agree with is the bad pits vs. bad people comparison. Again, I know any breed is capable of causing harm. Worst dog bite I ever had was from my wife's damn dachshund. My personal opinion is that pits are a problem due to over population, inbreeding, and ignorant careless owners. Pits due to their power and unique physical attributes to the breed make them more dangerous. Studies show that you are more likely to be bitten by a small breed, but I am not going to be as worried if a chihuahua comes running after me.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/320489_10150396385207784_786972783_10268911_564170 8_n.jpg

I agree with this. Cesar is awesome! Pits may be the scapegoated breed of the decade, but I still believe the breed is an issue for reasons I cited above. I don't think we should ban the breed. Would be nice if we could ban ignorant/negligent owners.

esartori
10-11-2011, 3:56 PM
Maybe I misread your post. I am not advocating banning pits whatsoever. I just see their shortcomings due to the negligence of owners and breeders. I think because of that there tends to be a disproportional instance of pits gone bad. I think there is sufficient evidence to show that pits as of right now are a problem for the above reasons and the study a previous poster noted.



I see what you're saying and I do agree. However, want I don't agree with is the bad pits vs. bad people comparison. Again, I know any breed is capable of causing harm. Worst dog bite I ever had was from my wife's damn dachshund. My personal opinion is that pits are a problem due to over population, inbreeding, and ignorant careless owners. Pits due to their power and unique physical attributes to the breed make them more dangerous. Studies show that you are more likely to be bitten by a small breed, but I am not going to be as worried if a chihuahua comes running after me.



I agree with this. Cesar is awesome! Pits may be the scapegoated breed of the decade, but I still believe the breed is an issue for reasons I cited above. I don't think we should ban the breed. Would be nice if we could ban ignorant/negligent owners.

Maybe a 10 day waiting period on pitbull purchases? We can DROS their jaws too as that is the "weapon" part of the animal too. ;)

Bug Splat
10-11-2011, 4:00 PM
I'm always weary about big dogs and kids. My 7yo female cousin was attacked right in front of the family by their own pit. Ripped half her face off requiring a dozen surgeries. My uncle blew the dogs head off with a shotgun minutes after the attack. No one thought ill of him. This dog slept with her every night and the family 100% trusted it.

I'm happy to say she (now 27) recovered very well and has a beautiful face. You would never know the attack happened.

JaMail
10-11-2011, 4:03 PM
for all of you that think pit bulls should be banned or no longer bred.

seriously? your buying into the effing liberal media hype against a type of dog? what a bunch of hypocrites..

its the EXACT same as saying the features are what make a rifle evil, that the "look" or "breed" of a dog makes it evil. so the only dog's we should be able to own are the ones on california's safe dog list?

the ONLY reason pit bulls are vilified is that they became a gang status symbol and were purposefully trained to fight to the death and they made good articles to write and film about.

ive seen cock's that were trained for cock fighting kick a dog's *** that was 100 pounds compared to the chickens maybe 5 pounds.


use some common sense before you spout FUD..




http://atts.org/

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253989_154959591240100_145166128886113_331018_5222 990_n.jpg

JTROKS
10-11-2011, 4:04 PM
"It's not the pit bulls, it's the owners!" How many times have you heard that? Personally I don't have anything against the breed, they just do what they were bred to do. To be vicious and they do that with flying colors. I've met pit bulls that are just so nice and caring and I've seen some that are just demonic. I had a neighbor that had a red nose pit bull that just terrorized my family. Kept on slamming on the old fence until it broke. I almost lost it and wanted to kill the damned dog. The owner just didn't understand that the dog is good to them, but to everyone else the dog was a monster. Good dog, bad owner. A lot of these dogs are being raised by teenagers and misguided adults that have nothing good to teach the dog except to be an icon of toughness.

Decoligny
10-11-2011, 4:07 PM
I think all pitbulls should be bred like the one I saw about 2 years ago at the Vet.

It was half PitBull, and half Dauchshund. I think Momma Pit was napping when Daddy Dach came a courtin'.

Seriously this dog had the head and body of a purebred PitBull, but with legs so short he almost scraped the ground. No problem if he gets agressive, just take a few steps and he will never catch you.

golfrj
10-11-2011, 4:16 PM
I for one have no idea how this thread ever got over to Gun Owners, are there that many Mentally Unbalanced gun owners out there? But maybe it IS a good idea, we could Register ALL Pit Bull owners like we do gun owners then IF the doggie is involved in a Incident we can track him, Sue the Owner, and say Bad Doggie No Breeding for you.. In a few short years the Mental Problems will be bred out of the animals.. JMHO

JTROKS
10-11-2011, 4:16 PM
for all of you that think pit bulls should be banned or no longer bred.

seriously? your buying into the effing liberal media hype against a type of dog? what a bunch of hypocrites..

its the EXACT same as saying the features are what make a rifle evil, that the "look" or "breed" of a dog makes it evil. so the only dog's we should be able to own are the ones on california's safe dog list?

the ONLY reason pit bulls are vilified is that they became a gang status symbol and were purposefully trained to fight to the death and they made good articles to write and film about.

ive seen cock's that were trained for cock fighting kick a dog's *** that was 100 pounds compared to the chickens maybe 5 pounds.


use some common sense before you spout FUD..




http://atts.org/

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253989_154959591240100_145166128886113_331018_5222 990_n.jpg

Can you explain what happened here? http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_18663975?source=rss

I'm not condemning the breed of dog, just trying to get some explanation why turning on the owner and savagely killing her. I've heard of dobermans turning on their owners too. I have a friend that owned a rottweiler that bit his wife bad enough that they put the dog down immediately by lead poisoning. One shot to the brain.

JaMail
10-11-2011, 4:19 PM
most vicious dogs around in my opinion are poodles. insane vicious animals. but they are small and cute so they get a pass. a toy poodle can maul an infant or toddler just easily as a pit bull.

.22 can kill just the same as my .357..

i dont own a pitbull, i have never owned a pitbull, i havent personally owned any dog in the last 15 years, last dog i owned was a 20 year old half doberman, half german shepard, i do however have a neighbor that raises and trains all types of dog's and has award winning APBT's.

http://www.schutzhund-training.com/

JaMail
10-11-2011, 4:35 PM
Can you explain what happened here? http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_18663975?source=rss

I'm not condemning the breed of dog, just trying to get some explanation why turning on the owner and savagely killing her. I've heard of dobermans turning on their owners too. I have a friend that owned a rottweiler that bit his wife bad enough that they put the dog down immediately by lead poisoning. One shot to the brain.



no, i cant explain why this ladies pitbull turned on her. it's a dog, no more than i can explain why all of the other pitbulls have NOT turned on their owners.

this is a good article - some might say it proves the point for APBT's as more dangerous. to me it shows that of the hundreds of thousands, only 66 have caused deaths in 20 years.
www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

SoEm0
10-11-2011, 4:47 PM
does he look like this? http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac319/jbusman84/26540_571097673862_34100144_33111615_622620_n.jpg

LOL one of my pits is the exact same mix. He has more of the pit head but ridgeback frame/color.



As to the pregnant lady that died. Did they ever come out with the autopsy report? I am not saying for sure, but it has been documented when someone has had heart attacks or strokes dogs have attacked their owners. Some people say that it may be because they are trying to help their owners. Other say they are attacking because the "alpha" is ill/wounded/dying. People have to remember that even after all these years dogs still came from wolves, they still act as a pack, there is always an alpha and being so there is power struggle.

arkangl72
10-11-2011, 4:51 PM
I love dogs, but I have no problem with harming a dog if they were endangering the life of a human. Whether it's kicking one or having to shoot one to save a life. Now a couple of my friends have pits, and they were the nicest dogs I had met. Not to say that I wouldn't worry about my safety if I didn't know them and saw them on the street. Just this past weekend my mother-in-law came into the house screaming because two loose blue pits came up to her as she was in the front of the house, luckily they kept on walking. Dogs are reflections of their owners, much like kids are reflections of their parents. Bad owners make bad dogs. The problem is that a bad pit will do considerably more damage than a chihuahua with issues. It's a case of the owners being held responsible for their dogs. It's probably a good assumption that he majority of people saying just kill them all have never seen a pit bull in person, and their only interaction with one is whatever horrific story they saw on the news or read on the internet.

sequoia_nomad
10-11-2011, 5:05 PM
Anyone else think it's time for this to get moved to Off-Topic Discussions? I fail to see how any of this pertains to California Handguns.

esartori
10-11-2011, 5:10 PM
Anyone else think it's time for this to get moved to Off-Topic Discussions? I fail to see how any of this pertains to California Handguns.

I think the thread is just dead. Originally it was about the use of deadly force to stop the dog in the OP. Turned into a anti/pro pitbull match.

In the end, the officer did what he had to do to stop the attack. That about sums it up

451040
10-11-2011, 5:20 PM
Good driving and good shooting Officer Fenner. So many PBTs ... so little time.

Mr. Beretta
10-11-2011, 5:25 PM
http://www.sgvtribune.com/ci_19080453

The above is a link to an article in the San Gabriel Valley Tribune.
A retired Fire Chief was out for his morning walk when he was attacked by 2 Pit Bulls. The citizen was seriously injured before a Glendora PD officer used his car to injure 1 dog and ended up shooting both dogs with his handgun.
The fire chief believes the officer, on routine patrol, saved his life.
I believe that if the officer had not 'happened' by, the man could have died. If a citizen made the decision to shoot the 2 vicious deadly dogs in the street, that citizen would most likely be charged with a crime.
If the citizen decided to intervene without using a gun, his own life would be in danger.
Any thoughts?



Here's my thoughts.

"If a citizen made the decision to shoot the 2 vicious deadly dogs in the street, that citizen would most likely be charged with a crime."

Couldn't disagreed with you more!

What crime? A law abiding citizen arms themselves with a lawful firearm, places their own life at risk and saves the life of another human being, seconds away from being mauled to death by two Pit Bulls? What crime? What DA, what Grand Jury, anywhere, is going to charge this person who acted in a brave and responsible manner?

Even if the DA did charge, a 2nd year law student could successfully defend the citizen against those insane, false and immoral allegations! Plus after the criminal matter is resolved, then the same DA would have to defend themselves & their office against a million dollar civil suit brought by the citizen.

"Ca. Penal Code Section: 197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,"

If the Ca. Penal Code clearly states a armed law abiding citizen is justified in shooting / killing another person to save the life of another person, then surely the same is applied to shooting / killing an animal to save the life of a human being.

JTROKS
10-11-2011, 5:34 PM
Yeah! I'm sorry for going off topic.

If I was driving along and see a dog attacking a person I will more than likely get a tire iron and or screw driver to use as a weapon to stop the attack. The intent is not to kill the dogs, but to stop the attack and get the injured person some medical attention. The consequences of my action will likely being the new target of the dogs and it's a fight for life situation. More than likely I'll have pepper spray and that usually stop a dog attack long enough to get out of dodge.

SVT-40
10-11-2011, 5:35 PM
What caliber was used? # of shots fired? Duty weapon? :nopity:

.40 Caliber S&W Federal premium 180 grain HST (tactical) out of a Glock 22 (Duty)

Three rounds fired.

BlackRain17
10-11-2011, 5:58 PM
I have to say 99% of all these strayed pitbulls are due to owners just abandoning them. They should track the owner down and punish him or her.

Kosuki
10-11-2011, 6:08 PM
not all pits are bad dogs...

Toolbox X
10-11-2011, 6:20 PM
It's not like all of the 'work' was purposely bread out PBTs and they were distinctly bread to be ruthless savage fighting dogs. Oh wait....

Toolbox X
10-11-2011, 6:25 PM
not all pits are bad dogs...

Yeah, and not all paroled violent felons are bad people either. But I'm not willing to let violent felons all of them run around with firearms because someone makes a case that some of them are harmless.

esartori
10-11-2011, 6:53 PM
Yeah, and not all paroled violent felons are bad people either. But I'm not willing to let violent felons all of them run around with firearms because someone makes a case that some of them are harmless.

True I wouldn't trust a dog that had already attacked someone. Once a dog attacks a human, I believe then it is safe to say the dog is dangerous. But to say that all pitbulls will attack is the same as saying every human will kill someone else. Your analogy makes no sense. Felons have shown that they have done something wrong, and the same goes for dogs that have attacked. If a dog hasn't attacked, expecting that it will is the same as identifying someone of a certain race to be more likely to become a criminal just because of their race (as mentioned earlier). This is inherently wrong. Correlation does not equal causation.

Classic example is one which shows that as ice cream sales go up, shark attacks go up. Does this mean sales of ice cream causes shark attacks? No. Chances are something else (i.e. Summer) is a period where more people swim and buy ice cream. Pitbulls might seem to attack more frequently because the people who breed dogs to fight, also tend to breed pitbulls (large sized and can be TRAINED to be violent). Here, it's the person breeding fighting dogs and using pitbulls that causes the correlation.

motorwerks
10-11-2011, 7:02 PM
So, I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes.

I don't like pits. I will never own one. But that doesn't mean we should be able to ban them. It's the same thing as the gun grabbers. Spread FUD, scare people, say it's for the children, you know the routine. Kill problem animals, not all of them.
Agreed. I've owned and lived with Pits that were some of the kindest animals I've ever been around.

BayAreaShooter
10-11-2011, 7:12 PM
Great another Pitbull bashing thread. I'm so ****ing sick of this ****. I honestly could write a book right now telling you how wrong all the Pitbull haters are but it would do no good. I have done it many times before and have gotten no where. Good luck to the Pitty lovers trying to make the haters see they are being sheeple.

chris650
10-11-2011, 7:31 PM
+1


It's the same thing as buying into the media saying, "the only reason anybody would ever want hollow point cop killer bullets and assault clips that hold more than 10 rounds is to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible" and believe that hook, line, and sinker. And the media has said that exact thing.

How can you gun owners just go along with a campaign against a specific breed of dogs coming from the same people who so blatantly lie and mislead the public on firearms, politics, and whatever else.

Exactly my thoughts. Media control us.

motorwerks
10-11-2011, 7:33 PM
Great another Pitbull bashing thread. I'm so ****ing sick of this ****. I honestly could write a book right now telling you how wrong all the Pitbull haters are but it would do no good. I have done it many times before and have gotten no where. Good luck to the Pitty lovers trying to make the haters see they are being sheeple.

same team! But Sheeple never see that they are being Sheeple!

Toolbox X
10-11-2011, 7:50 PM
same team! But Sheeple never see that they are being Sheeple!

Or they just might have very good and valid cause to completely disagree with you. One or the other. :)

motorwerks
10-11-2011, 8:01 PM
:43:

http://www.thoughtsfromaconservativemom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Sheeple.jpg

:D Bahhh!

nanoc
10-11-2011, 8:18 PM
Don't have any experience with pit bulls but doberman have been great for me.

SocomM4
10-11-2011, 8:18 PM
Pits are not a genetically engineered killer, nor are they inherently aggressive ,or violent. What they are, right down to the core, people pleasers. You can teach and make pitbulls do ANYTHING , as long as it makes his owner happy. And for the record again, stories involving pitbull attacks are the only ones the media gives a **** about showing.

TNP'R
10-11-2011, 8:31 PM
"It's not the pit bulls, it's the owners!" How many times have you heard that? Personally I don't have anything against the breed, they just do what they were bred to do. To be vicious and they do that with flying colors. I've met pit bulls that are just so nice and caring and I've seen some that are just demonic. I had a neighbor that had a red nose pit bull that just terrorized my family. Kept on slamming on the old fence until it broke. I almost lost it and wanted to kill the damned dog. The owner just didn't understand that the dog is good to them, but to everyone else the dog was a monster. Good dog, bad owner. A lot of these dogs are being raised by teenagers and misguided adults that have nothing good to teach the dog except to be an icon of toughness.

So when Pit Bulls are born they come out blood thirsty? You honestly believe that? I've had little dogs try to bite me i've had a black lab snap at me ive had cocker spaniels growl at me does that mean that they're all born to bite and growl at me? Are they prewired for aggression as soon as they pop out of the womb? Of course not and if you think that's the case then you need to sit back and take a big long look at the situation. Pit Bulls were bred to fight but they are not programmed in the brain to fight when they come out of the womb it takes training and mistreatment. But what do I know i've only owned dogs my whole life and have two dogs currently and one happens to be a Pitbull.


It's not like all of the 'work' was purposely bread out PBTs and they were distinctly bread to be ruthless savage fighting dogs. Oh wait....

If they are ruthless savage fighting dogs then why hasn't my pitbull killed my other dog? my other dog is just a little jack russel mix. You know nothing.

S dot
10-11-2011, 8:57 PM
Punish the deed not the breed.

I wouldn't trade my APBT for any other dog. She is not only the sweetest, funnest, dog to hang with, but also the most loyal dog and wants nothing more than to make me happy. She is also wicked smaht.

Most of you seem like the only encounter you have with a APBT is in an article, might wanna check out the other side of the coin. There are countless stories of APBT's saving their family and doing so even to the point of death.

You have to understand that 99% of these attacks are stupid stupid stupid owners with really smart dogs that need training They are pack dogs and when they think they have become the leader of the pack problems would happen. The thing is you give these retard owners any other dog, and there would be problems.

S dot
10-11-2011, 9:01 PM
http://www.wndu.com/hometop/headlines/98083109.html

http://www.necn.com/Boston/New-England/2009/02/19/Hero-dog-saves-11-from-burning/1235087866.html

http://www.wtae.com/r/29297655/detail.html

Yeah and I want a lapdog....

acaligunner
10-11-2011, 9:15 PM
I know there are tons of folks that Love those Pit Bull Doggies, BUT I am NOT one ( I know, I know, if you raise them with love they will be Wonderful Doggies,**** B.S.****).. Everytime I hear of an attack it involves a Pit, maybe we should consider not breeding any more of these Mentally Unbalanced animals, one minute they are loving pets, the Next Minute they are at someones throat... JMHO

Spoken like a true ignorant.

Tell you what there's a APBT show in Nov the 26 & 27 th, come out and see what a real bulldog is, and then pass judgment.

Oh there is going to be at least 50 there per day, no attacks, no fights, just good pit bulls. The show is going to be held in Fontana, Ca so you have no excuse not to attend.

acg

acaligunner
10-11-2011, 9:17 PM
Shoot every last one of these dangerous killer dogs. I am sick of hearing stories of them attacking people. I seriously dont care about this "raise with love and care" bullshivism. If u want one, take it to an uninhabited island and then love and live with it, but keep it out of populated areas. Who in the right mind would want a dog that was bred to be as aggressive and dangerous as possible???

Pit bulls where never breed to be aggressive, or dangerous.

Learn about the breed, and then talk.

acg

ubet
10-11-2011, 9:25 PM
Ah the wonderful pit bull debate.

The one thing I will say is, I have shot more pit bulls than any other breed (they were in/harassing livestock it is legal to shoot any ANIMAL then) but its only been 2. One I am SURE had been a fighting dog, the other, I dont know but it was in my horses and I dont do well with that.

ubet
10-11-2011, 9:26 PM
On the article, good shooting on the cops part, handguns are not as effective on a dog as people seem to think.

acaligunner
10-11-2011, 9:27 PM
gadsdenarmory

I agree with this 100%. My dog is part pit, lab and who knows what else. I never would have rescued him had he been full pit.

Pit bulls where never breed to be aggressive toward humans, a trait that todays breeders maintain. The apbt has one of the most stable temperaments of any dog breed. The lab breed into your dog is a weakness.


I have a family to think about and the risk of taking on one of these "purebred" (aka INbred) bi-polar animals is not worth it.

For what's it worth to you, all dogs are inbreed. Inbreeding does not put any more that what is already there. Pure breed dogs, are selectively breed to work, or protect. Your mutt is breed to do neither, and thus is just a 'dog', breed to do nothing but eat and well you know.


Not to mention I care enough about my neighbors that I would not want to go to jail or have to fire sale my guns to pay for a civil suite. I don't get dog lovers period, but advocates of these breed need to educate the breeders and dogs, not the general public.

You speak as tho the APBT is a new breed, breed to kill humans. Look up the history, or better yet get in contact with a local pit bull club. These dogs are breed to be stable, not what you see running around in the streets. Also there are many different 'pit bull type' dogs, used by the media to cause misinformation.

If you are not informed, you just go with what is told to you. That is not the breed, or what the breed was breed to do.

acg

TNP'R
10-11-2011, 9:35 PM
Before the thugs and "gangstas" got ahold of the breed the APT was America's dog, back in the 1990s a pitbull helped rescue I think it was 11 people even alerting rescuers to where the people were. APT's are not aggressive towards humans, but given the right conditions they can turn against humans and to get to that point it has to be abused. You get any breed of dog I don't care what breed it is, abuse it and you'll see the same so called traits as APT's have. It is not the breed period. Research and learn about the breed before you comment.

ubet
10-11-2011, 9:48 PM
Apparently pitbulls are the 33rd placed in intelligence....

http://joybutler.suite101.com/dog-intelligencetemperament-a2313

TNP'R
10-11-2011, 9:54 PM
Apparently pitbulls are the 33rd placed in intelligence....

http://joybutler.suite101.com/dog-intelligencetemperament-a2313

You say that like it's a bad thing, considering that there's a countless number of breeds that's pretty good.

socal-shooter
10-11-2011, 9:57 PM
re; getting prosecuted for shooting an attacking dog

wasnt there a lady here in CA that shot a dog in the street in front of her house for attacking her kids?...as i recall she was portrayed as a hero even in the liberal media

SVT-40
10-11-2011, 9:58 PM
How about those of you with any agenda , pro or con against pit bulls start another thread and take your opinions there.

This thread is not about one breed or another. It just so happens it was two pit bulls who attacked the man in this case. So get over it.

The victim was darn lucky the officer was where he was and took the initiative to end the attack. Otherwise it probably would have ended with the victim being killed. Isn't that more important than the petty bickering about one breed or another.

Seriously many of you here sound like whining little girls.

SVT-40
10-11-2011, 10:00 PM
Apparently pitbulls are the 33rd placed in intelligence....

http://joybutler.suite101.com/dog-intelligencetemperament-a2313

Sadly they still rank far above many humans. :eek:

JeremyS
10-11-2011, 10:19 PM
To actually be on topic: I'm all for what the cop did and I'd hope that a normal civilian would/could have done the same thing.



http://www.ywgrossman.com/photoblog/?p=676
http://www.ywgrossman.com/photoblog/?p=780

^^^ there's good stuff there on pit bulls in war, with children, as an American mascot, etc.


PHOTO GALLERY TIME!!!

My Lucy is probably 60-70% pit, but you'd never know it. Her mom was pure bred, her dad had some pit in him but was mostly various terrier mutt. 8 of the babies looked like pure bred pits, 2 were scruffy like Lucille here. She is, by the way, probably the happiest, friendliest dog I have ever known. She absolutely loves everybody and every other dog. She got the "good dog discount" when we left her with a dog walker / boarder dude, and he truthfully stated that he gives that maybe 4 or 5 times a year. She's quite smart (and my last dog was a genius border collie / Aussie mix. Lucy holds her own), with a pretty impressive vocabulary and she'll put up with absolutely anything. In fact, pit bulls were known for being great with kids because they pass the "how long can you poke them repeatedly in the eye before they get angry or leave" test better than any other breed. She gently plays with our two cats and gets along great with our two chickens.

All that said, I'm very thankful she doesn't look like a pit, because that would be constant problems thanks to how they've villified.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/221745_658602059104_7305566_35826190_3633719_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/23461_581439832824_7305566_34449198_6454288_n.jpg

Hey look, it's a rifle case behind her. Ughhh... is the dog wearing socks? Yeah... apparently.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/13334_573121752324_7305566_34161724_1242225_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299825_706362891014_7305566_36281043_1392770654_n. jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/224790_658601764694_7305566_35826179_7938348_n.jpg



She still makes a very good watch dog though, at home and when camping (below). She's small, but weighs 60 lbs (most dog people guess 40) and has a very deep, big-dog bark, which is great. Funny thing is she only barks when we're there. It's for us.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/61688_602114874874_7305566_35206551_2812620_n.jpg

JeremyS
10-11-2011, 10:38 PM
You want a deadly dog? Now here's a deadly dog!



http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/chiving-tuesday-1.jpg?w=500&h=388

ubet
10-11-2011, 10:38 PM
You say that like it's a bad thing, considering that there's a countless number of breeds that's pretty good.


No, I just like to point that out everytime dogs' intelligence comes up, because I raise bordercollies and they are the smartest breed by 10fold the next:43:

TNP'R
10-11-2011, 10:41 PM
No, I just like to point that out everytime dogs' intelligence comes up, because I raise bordercollies and they are the smartest breed by 10fold the next:43:

So??

TNP'R
10-12-2011, 1:21 AM
Good night calguns.net im going to go cuddle up with my vicious blood thirsty pit bull :rolleyes:

pieeater
10-12-2011, 6:19 AM
Happened right by me.


http://www.dailyrepublic.com/archives/neighbors-save-women-attacked-by-dogs/

pieeater
10-12-2011, 6:24 AM
Heres a shortened version.

Shortly after 6 a.m., the two unidentified women were running in the 600 block of Pavilion Drive when three canines jumped on one of them. Screams for help echoed through the neighborhood, prompting concerned citizens to call 9-1-1.

Pavilion Drive resident Gary Paquet was first on the scene with his 9mm handgun, saying he shot one dog before his weapon jammed.

Paquet’s next door neighbor, John Bettencourt, arrived moments later and continued to shoot the dogs with his .45-caliber pistol.

fairfield Police Officer Joseph Holecek said the initial victim had injuries from head to toe, and both victims were transported to the Kaiser emergency room in Vallejo.

Holecek also noted that Paquet and Bettencourt should be commended for what they did.

resident-shooter
10-12-2011, 8:08 AM
Comparing puts to guns is apples to oranges to the point of ridicule. Of course guns got their own brains and run around looking for children to maul. Get your logic straight...

Sunwolf
10-12-2011, 8:39 AM
Pitbulls are super-cyber engineered to kill living things.Me?I just have Dire wolves as pets!

Toolbox X
10-12-2011, 8:41 AM
Forget the media and their anti-pit bull bias.

In my world I love dogs, and I've been around thousands of them. Thankfully there have been only a dozen or so times when I felt the safety of my wife or my children were at grave risk because of the presence of a dog. 12 out of 12 times the dog(s) have been pit bulls. That's 100%.

Also in my world, the people I know personally who have been horrifically injured from dog attacks, over 90% of the dogs in those attacks were pit bulls. Not dobermans, not labs, not poodles. Pit bulls.

But pit bulls are just misunderstood, right? I know, I'm a total freaking idiot for thinking something to do with the breed could be at play here.

RedFord150
10-12-2011, 8:42 AM
How about those of you with any agenda , pro or con against pit bulls start another thread and take your opinions there.

This thread is not about one breed or another. It just so happens it was two pit bulls who attacked the man in this case. So get over it.

The victim was darn lucky the officer was where he was and took the initiative to end the attack. Otherwise it probably would have ended with the victim being killed. Isn't that more important than the petty bickering about one breed or another.

Seriously many of you here sound like whining little girls.

Thank you, SVT-40.
As the OP, my original intent was simply to illustrate that the shooting of 2 dogs was necessary to save the life of a man. In this case, the GPD officer is unlikely to face any charges.
My point was simply to start a discussion about the LEO being justfied in shooting an attacking dog, but a citizen could face charges or civil liability for the exact same act.
If I were being attacked, I would want anyone to come too my aid without fear of prosecution. Unfortunately, I am not 100% confident this would be the outcome.
Most cities and counties have ordinances prohibiting the discharge of a firearm in populated areas. This could be the charge. If an errant round ended up in someone's house, I do not know how what laws could be charged.
Hopefully, we can all somehow figure out a way to use this incident to support our 2A rights. A man being attacked by a dog at 4AM will not always be lucky enough to have an LEO drive by and assist. In this case, it would be much more likely that a nearby homeowner would have a loaded gun and the ability to hit the target.
I never intended for this thread to become a debate on Pit Bull vs. Other Breeds. It just happened that the dogs in this case were Pit Bulls. If someone wants too continue this debate, I would ask them to open a separate thread in the 'Off Topic' forum.
In the meanwhile, if I ever find an article on a Dog that is not a Pit Bull fatally attacking a person, I will post that article on CG.

Farva
10-12-2011, 8:50 AM
blah blah blah *insert pitbull hate* blah blah blah.

More fear mongering crap about a breed of dog. :rolleyes:

Toolbox X
10-12-2011, 8:53 AM
Thank you, SVT-40.
As the OP, my original intent was simply to illustrate that the shooting of 2 dogs was necessary to save the life of a man. In this case, the GPD officer is unlikely to face any charges.
My point was simply to start a discussion about the LEO being justfied in shooting an attacking dog, but a citizen could face charges or civil liability for the exact same act.
If I were being attacked, I would want anyone to come too my aid without fear of prosecution. Unfortunately, I am not 100% confident this would be the outcome.
Most cities and counties have ordinances prohibiting the discharge of a firearm in populated areas. This could be the charge. If an errant round ended up in someone's house, I do not know how what laws could be charged.
Hopefully, we can all somehow figure out a way to use this incident to support our 2A rights. A man being attacked by a dog at 4AM will not always be lucky enough to have an LEO drive by and assist. In this case, it would be much more likely that a nearby homeowner would have a loaded gun and the ability to hit the target.
I never intended for this thread to become a debate on Pit Bull vs. Other Breeds. It just happened that the dogs in this case were Pit Bulls. If someone wants too continue this debate, I would ask them to open a separate thread in the 'Off Topic' forum.
In the meanwhile, if I ever find an article on a Dog that is not a Pit Bull fatally attacking a person, I will post that article on CG.

The answer to your post is a simple one. When you see someone who needs help, it doesn't matter if they hurt them self, are being attacked by a person, are being attacked by a dog, whatever, they need help, if you have integrity you will help them in any way possible.

Only liberals stand around, looking up regulations and calling lawyers, while a pit bull separates the calf muscle from a little girl's leg bone.

If you see someone who needs help, you help them.

TNP'R
10-12-2011, 9:25 AM
2010 U.S. Dog Bite Fatality Statistics - DogsBite.org
Fatal Dog Attack Statistics
DogsBite.org recorded 33 fatal dog attacks in 2010.1 Citations of each victim's story are located on the Fatality Citations page. The last year the CDC recorded and studied dog bite fatalities by breed was 1998. Likely due to pressures from pro-pit bull, animal advocacy and dog fancying groups, the CDC stopped studying these deaths by breed. The only other known entity that tracks this information is Animal People.2 DogsBite.org has joined in this effort.

2010 Dog Bite Fatalities

33 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2010. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 650 U.S. cities, pit bulls led these attacks accounting for 67% (22). Pit bulls make up approximately 5% of the total U.S. dog population
In 2010, the combination of pit bulls (22) and rottweilers (4) accounted for 79% of all fatal attacks. In the 6-year period from 2005 to 2010, this same combination accounted for 71% (129) of the total recorded deaths (181)
The combined breakdown between the two breeds is substantial. From 2005 to 2010, pit bulls killed 104 Americans, about one citizen every 21 days, versus rottweilers, which killed 25 Americans, about one citizen every 88 days
2010 data shows that 61% (20) of the attacks occurred to children (11 years and younger) and 39% occurred to adults. Of the children, 75% (15) occurred to ages 4 and younger. Within this same age group, males represented 60% of the victims
2010 data also shows that 33% (11) of the fatal incidents involved multiple dogs.4 Nearly a third, 30% (10), involved breeding on the dog owner's property either actively or in the recent past, and 9% (3) involved chained dogs
Dog ownership information for 2010 shows that family dogs comprised 73% (24) of the attacks that resulted in death; 88% (29) of these incidents occurred on the dog owner's property and 12% (4) occurred off the owner's property
The state of California led fatalities in 2010 with 7 deaths; pit bulls contributed to 83% (6). Florida followed with 3 deaths and Georgia, Illinois, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas each had 2 deaths





a person is truly ignorant to deny the FACTS that are widely reported and well known that this breed of dog is the single most responsible for attacks resulting in human death.

people keep pet crocodiles, tigers, monkey's etc.. as cute and cudly as they are, the fact is that they are statistically more dangerous pets than others.. and this particular breed of dog is statistically more lethal compared to other breeds.

regardless of breed, the human reaction to a lethal dog [or any other animal] attack should be the same.. the trivial defending of how cute your particular house pet is, or how many show dogs are paraded at Westminster, has no bases to refute the FACTS gathered by the CDC and related agencies and studies.

I've said it before in other APT threads. Ban APT's and another breed will take top billing for dog bites and deaths. Getting rid of the breed will not solve anything.You'll just point to more statistics saying that another breed has caused more deaths. Fear mongering only spreads ignorance and hate. Instead of trying make the breed look evil and convince everyone that its a mindless killing machine why not look at true reasons behind these attacks.

Get rid of dog fighting and the stupid "gangsta" culture and I guarantee that at-least some of these attacks will cease. But ban the breed and these so called "gangsta" low life's will find another breed to use for dog fighting.

This is a theory I have and I don't know if it's true or not so take it with a grain of salt but I wonder if some of these attacks were performed by shelter dogs that had a past history of abuse and or dog fighting.

But given the right care a APT doesn't turn into a blood thirsty killing machine off the bat if you look at the facts APT's were bred to be human friendly but dog aggressive. Even given the right raising a APT doesn't have to be aggressive towards other dogs, I wouldn't say release them in a dog park though but I am saying that with the right training they wont attack other dogs. The thing with properly raised APT's is they don't want to fight dogs, they have to be trained to but an APT wont back down from a fight if another dog gets the APT started and if they do the APT will finish it.

It's messed up that someone was attacked but its also messed up that people think its the whole entire breed that is that way and when we tell them to do research and look at the facts they come back with statistics instead of doing research on the dog breed its self.

acaligunner
10-12-2011, 9:46 AM
2010 U.S. Dog Bite Fatality Statistics - DogsBite.org
Fatal Dog Attack Statistics
DogsBite.org recorded 33 fatal dog attacks in 2010.1 Citations of each victim's story are located on the Fatality Citations page. The last year the CDC recorded and studied dog bite fatalities by breed was 1998. Likely due to pressures from pro-pit bull, animal advocacy and dog fancying groups, the CDC stopped studying these deaths by breed. The only other known entity that tracks this information is Animal People.2 DogsBite.org has joined in this effort.

2010 Dog Bite Fatalities

33 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2010. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 650 U.S. cities, pit bulls led these attacks accounting for 67% (22). Pit bulls make up approximately 5% of the total U.S. dog population
In 2010, the combination of pit bulls (22) and rottweilers (4) accounted for 79% of all fatal attacks. In the 6-year period from 2005 to 2010, this same combination accounted for 71% (129) of the total recorded deaths (181)
The combined breakdown between the two breeds is substantial. From 2005 to 2010, pit bulls killed 104 Americans, about one citizen every 21 days, versus rottweilers, which killed 25 Americans, about one citizen every 88 days
2010 data shows that 61% (20) of the attacks occurred to children (11 years and younger) and 39% occurred to adults. Of the children, 75% (15) occurred to ages 4 and younger. Within this same age group, males represented 60% of the victims
2010 data also shows that 33% (11) of the fatal incidents involved multiple dogs.4 Nearly a third, 30% (10), involved breeding on the dog owner's property either actively or in the recent past, and 9% (3) involved chained dogs
Dog ownership information for 2010 shows that family dogs comprised 73% (24) of the attacks that resulted in death; 88% (29) of these incidents occurred on the dog owner's property and 12% (4) occurred off the owner's property
The state of California led fatalities in 2010 with 7 deaths; pit bulls contributed to 83% (6). Florida followed with 3 deaths and Georgia, Illinois, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas each had 2 deaths





a person is truly ignorant to deny the FACTS that are widely reported and well known that this breed of dog is the single most responsible for attacks resulting in human death.

people keep pet crocodiles, tigers, monkey's etc.. as cute and cudly as they are, the fact is that they are statistically more dangerous pets than others.. and this particular breed of dog is statistically more lethal compared to other breeds.

regardless of breed, the human reaction to a lethal dog [or any other animal] attack should be the same.. the trivial defending of how cute your particular house pet is, or how many show dogs are paraded at Westminster, has no bases to refute the FACTS gathered by the CDC and related agencies and studies.

You mean they actually 'checked' the pedigrees of all those dogs, or did the stats come from people labeling the dogs as 'pit bulls'

There are many different breeds that look like pit bulls, american staffords, american bulldogs, mixes, stafford bull terriers, etc, etc.

I wonder what the media, ER Dr's, and the CDC have to say about keeping guns in the home?

If we are going by what is dangerous, and likely to kill us, doesn't the CDC, ER DOCS, and the Media, along with almost EVERY FBI/law enforcement personal tell us that a Firearm keep at home is likely to cause its owner's death, so compare those statistics to pit bull attacks on humans, if you want to include them in your study.

acg

acaligunner
10-12-2011, 9:56 AM
To those that say guns and apbt's are not comparable, here is my take.

Both need to be under the supervision of their owner, at all times.

Both need a owner who has taken the time to understand and learn about their gun/dog.

Both need to be handled by a responsible owner, because both can be misused by people who don't know what they are doing.

Everyone knows a gun is not 'alive', but it is the responsibility of the owner of BOTH to make sure they are properly handled, and secured.

These dogs where breed to be non-aggressive to humans, period.

If you have an uncontrollable dog, that is trying to attack people at will, then the owner should take measures to either secure that dog, or put it down.

acaligunner

golfrj
10-12-2011, 10:03 AM
Spoken like a true ignorant.

Tell you what there's a APBT show in Nov the 26 & 27 th, come out and see what a real bulldog is, and then pass judgment.

Oh there is going to be at least 50 there per day, no attacks, no fights, just good pit bulls. The show is going to be held in Fontana, Ca so you have no excuse not to attend.

acg


Sorry, I will pass, my excuse is, I Don't Care to be around your favorite breed, I showed & trained German Shepherds for years (Shutznhund dogs) and know when a dog is Mentally Defective you should Not breed to him or her.. Your favorite breed owners apparently are unaware of that fact or the breed would not STILL be under such bad publicity.... As Reliable breeders your people know where those genes are coming from ( or should) and need to do something to bring the breed back to where it was prior to all this Gang Status crap....You cannot read the reports and blame everything on Bad Training, there is definetly something else there also.. I wish you Good Luck with the breed you so obviously love.... JMHO

TNP'R
10-12-2011, 10:08 AM
Sorry, I will pass, my excuse is, I Don't Care to be around your favorite breed, I showed & trained German Shepherds for years (Shutznhund dogs) and know when a dog is Mentally Defective you should Not breed to him or her.. Your favorite breed owners apparently are unaware of that fact or the breed would not STILL be under such bad publicity.... As Reliable breeders your people know where those genes are coming from ( or should) and need to do something to bring the breed back to where it was prior to all this Gang Status crap....You cannot read the reports and blame everything on Bad Training, there is definetly something else there also.. I wish you Good Luck with the breed you so obviously love.... JMHO

You can blame the majority of it on bad raising but there is some that have defective genes if you will, but that can be said with any breed of dog i've seen vicious lap dogs for christ sake.Being mean,aggressive and vicious is not only a APT problem.

acaligunner
10-12-2011, 10:16 AM
golfrj;

Sorry, I will pass, my excuse is, I Don't Care to be around your favorite breed,

This tell us all we need to know. You like others will not take the time to learn about the breeds history, or talk to those responsible people that own them.

I showed & trained German Shepherds for years (Shutznhund dogs) and know when a dog is Mentally Defective you should Not breed to him or her..

Hey, this is not a GS topic. Once again you couldn't control yourself and just had to troll here.

Your favorite breed owners apparently are unaware of that fact or the breed would not STILL be under such bad publicity....

Bad publicity, oh really. Isn't your favorite GSD also considered a 'dangerous' breed on the BSL list. So I should like your breed? A breed of dog that was used by the Nazis to round up and kill/bite American soldiers and Jews. Ah NO I'LL PASS.

As Reliable breeders your people know where those genes are coming from ( or should) and need to do something to bring the breed back to where it was prior to all this Gang Status crap....

So I'm responsible for Gangsters?

I think you should look into your own breed, and put that dog back together again. You all can't even get along with your american/german dogs. Or agree on the 'degree' of back slope , or what ever. haha



You cannot read the reports and blame everything on Bad Training, there is definetly something else there also.. I wish you Good Luck with the breed you so obviously love.... JMHO

Ahh yes I can, the same reason why the majority of Police depts, have to IMPORT GSD's because you american breeders have destroyed the working ability and temperament of your beloved GSD.

YOU really should reconsider and go to the apbt show, instead of swinging in the dark here.

And ahh, the pit bull is doing well in shutznhund, or didn't you know. :facepalm:.

acaligunner

acaligunner
10-12-2011, 10:29 AM
I have edited my post to golfrj, excuse me if I was a little rough.

acg

Toolbox X
10-12-2011, 10:39 AM
So it's total coincidence that damn near every dog attack you see personally, know of, hear about, or read in the media, involves pitbulls. There's nothing wrong with the breed.

Right.

TNP'R
10-12-2011, 10:51 AM
So it's total coincidence that damn near every dog attack you see personally, know of, hear about, or read in the media, involves pitbulls. There's nothing wrong with the breed.

Right.

Growing up I witnessed my friend get attacked by a yellow lab, bit his side up pretty bad. I'm not sure what breed of dog it was but it wasn't a APT but one dog damn near bit me a few years back is there something wrong with those breeds? Nope something wrong with that dog? Yep, you sound like a liberal, get rid of everything that you perceive to be dangerous.


Did you hear about the APT that saved a woman from a thug in a parking lot a few months ago?

APT's are used as rescue dogs all the time and also used as therapy dogs. But go ahead and ignore that. Think a little bit here, if something was wrong with the breed why would they use them as rescue and therapy dogs, do you honestly think that they would put people at risk? You're not using your brain.

A Pit Bull named Weela, saved 30 people, 29 dogs, 13 horses and a cat during a flood in Southern California.After a dam broke on the Tijuana River stranding 12 dogs and one cat on an island, Weela crossed the river to take food to them for a month until they could be rescued. Weela led a rescue team to a group of 13 stranded horses and ran back and forth barking to warn a group of 30 people of the deep water they were attempting to cross. Weela was awarded Ken-L-Ration's Dog Hero of the Year in 1993 for her bravery.

But yet they're all mean and vicious something is obviously wrong with the breed :rolleyes:

21SF
10-12-2011, 11:09 AM
2010 U.S. Dog Bite Fatality Statistics - DogsBite.org
Fatal Dog Attack Statistics
DogsBite.org recorded 33 fatal dog attacks in 2010.1 Citations of each victim's story are located on the Fatality Citations page. The last year the CDC recorded and studied dog bite fatalities by breed was 1998. Likely due to pressures from pro-pit bull, animal advocacy and dog fancying groups, the CDC stopped studying these deaths by breed. The only other known entity that tracks this information is Animal People.2 DogsBite.org has joined in this effort.

2010 Dog Bite Fatalities

33 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2010. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 650 U.S. cities, pit bulls led these attacks accounting for 67% (22). Pit bulls make up approximately 5% of the total U.S. dog population
In 2010, the combination of pit bulls (22) and rottweilers (4) accounted for 79% of all fatal attacks. In the 6-year period from 2005 to 2010, this same combination accounted for 71% (129) of the total recorded deaths (181)
The combined breakdown between the two breeds is substantial. From 2005 to 2010, pit bulls killed 104 Americans, about one citizen every 21 days, versus rottweilers, which killed 25 Americans, about one citizen every 88 days
2010 data shows that 61% (20) of the attacks occurred to children (11 years and younger) and 39% occurred to adults. Of the children, 75% (15) occurred to ages 4 and younger. Within this same age group, males represented 60% of the victims
2010 data also shows that 33% (11) of the fatal incidents involved multiple dogs.4 Nearly a third, 30% (10), involved breeding on the dog owner's property either actively or in the recent past, and 9% (3) involved chained dogs
Dog ownership information for 2010 shows that family dogs comprised 73% (24) of the attacks that resulted in death; 88% (29) of these incidents occurred on the dog owner's property and 12% (4) occurred off the owner's property
The state of California led fatalities in 2010 with 7 deaths; pit bulls contributed to 83% (6). Florida followed with 3 deaths and Georgia, Illinois, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas each had 2 deaths





a person is truly ignorant to deny the FACTS that are widely reported and well known that this breed of dog is the single most responsible for attacks resulting in human death.

people keep pet crocodiles, tigers, monkey's etc.. as cute and cudly as they are, the fact is that they are statistically more dangerous pets than others.. and this particular breed of dog is statistically more lethal compared to other breeds.

regardless of breed, the human reaction to a lethal dog [or any other animal] attack should be the same.. the trivial defending of how cute your particular house pet is, or how many show dogs are paraded at Westminster, has no bases to refute the FACTS gathered by the CDC and related agencies and studies.

Oh just like i belive the brady campaign "FACTS" right?

Or their "STATISTICS"

Comparing puts to guns is apples to oranges to the point of ridicule. Of course guns got their own brains and run around looking for children to maul. Get your logic straight...

WOW just wow....try harder.

Forget the media and their anti-pit bull bias.

In my world I love dogs, and I've been around thousands of them. Thankfully there have been only a dozen or so times when I felt the safety of my wife or my children were at grave risk because of the presence of a dog. 12 out of 12 times the dog(s) have been pit bulls. That's 100%.

Also in my world, the people I know personally who have been horrifically injured from dog attacks, over 90% of the dogs in those attacks were pit bulls. Not dobermans, not labs, not poodles. Pit bulls.

But pit bulls are just misunderstood, right? I know, I'm a total freaking idiot for thinking something to do with the breed could be at play here.


I agree 100%

RedFord150
10-12-2011, 11:30 AM
....

Only liberals stand around, looking up regulations and calling lawyers, while a pit bull separates the calf muscle from a little girl's leg bone.

If you see someone who needs help, you help them.


A conservative with assets is just as likely too be concerned as a liberal.
I am willing to help anyone in need, anytime. I just do not want to lose my job and my house because I was prosecuted criminally or the defendant in a civil lawsuit.
After playing 'good samaritan', I still have a wife and kids to support.
You have replied too this thread several times. Any chance you can cite some actual facts to support your claims?

Toolbox X
10-12-2011, 11:40 AM
So I'm just supposed to accept it when the 2 pitbulls down the street get out and horrifically maim or murder my 2 children, or my wife? I'm just supposed to ignore the fact that I know the guy's dogs are extremely violent? I'm supposed to ignore the fact that they get out, never intentionally, but they get out. I'm supposed to ignore the fact that even when the guy who owns the dogs is standing next to them, they are completely out of his control? And I'm supposed to ignore the fact that the other 100 houses in my same neighborhood that have dogs, none of them are a threat to my family?

And this guy spews all the same crap I hear from you guys. They aren't violent. They are misunderstood. They haven't ever hurt anyone. They love his family.

There are reasons people are generally not allowed to keep animals like tigers and wolves as pets. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Seriously, can you not see how people like myself are concerned? If Ceasar Millan lived on every street corner and could prevent all these attacks, injuries and deaths I wouldn't have a problem. But Ceasar doesn't live in my neighborhood, only the pitbulls do. Can you really not understand why I am concerned for my family's and neighbors safety?

SVT-40
10-12-2011, 11:43 AM
Thank you, SVT-40.
As the OP, my original intent was simply to illustrate that the shooting of 2 dogs was necessary to save the life of a man. In this case, the GPD officer is unlikely to face any charges.
My point was simply to start a discussion about the LEO being justfied in shooting an attacking dog, but a citizen could face charges or civil liability for the exact same act.
If I were being attacked, I would want anyone to come too my aid without fear of prosecution. Unfortunately, I am not 100% confident this would be the outcome.
Most cities and counties have ordinances prohibiting the discharge of a firearm in populated areas. This could be the charge. If an errant round ended up in someone's house, I do not know how what laws could be charged.
Hopefully, we can all somehow figure out a way to use this incident to support our 2A rights. A man being attacked by a dog at 4AM will not always be lucky enough to have an LEO drive by and assist. In this case, it would be much more likely that a nearby homeowner would have a loaded gun and the ability to hit the target.
I never intended for this thread to become a debate on Pit Bull vs. Other Breeds. It just happened that the dogs in this case were Pit Bulls. If someone wants too continue this debate, I would ask them to open a separate thread in the 'Off Topic' forum.
In the meanwhile, if I ever find an article on a Dog that is not a Pit Bull fatally attacking a person, I will post that article on CG.

"Unlikely to face charges" ??...... You've got to be kidding. He is most likely to receive a commendation for good decision making and taking swift decisive action which quickly ended the threat.

You are 100 % wrong in your assertion related municipal laws related to the discharge of firearms.

This statement of yours is factually incorrect....."Most cities and counties have ordinances prohibiting the discharge of a firearm in populated areas".

The true description of the law is titled "unlawful discharge". The laws prohibit "unlawful" discharge only.

In the case of a person (LEO or not) acting to defend the life of another a discharge of a firearm would be lawful.



This statement of yours really has a "us Vs them" tone. Both LEO's or anyone firing a weapon will have to justify their acts

"My point was simply to start a discussion about the LEO being justfied in shooting an attacking dog, but a citizen could face charges or civil liability for the exact same act."

Why would you assert something which has no factual basis? If a "citizen" had come out of his house and shot the dogs instead of the officer the same positive outcome would have occurred and the "citizen" would not be facing any charges because his actions would be justified.

Anyone using deadly force will face a review of their actions. both LEO and non LEO.

Both face possible criminal or civil penalties if their actions are judged to have been wrong.

Recently (8-9-11) also in Glendora a "citizen" fired a shot to scare away a pack of coyotes which were in his backyard.

No charges were even considered.

The last line of the San Gabriel tribune story said this:

"Officials found no evidence of a crime with regard to the gunfire"

Read more: http://www.sgvtribune.com/ci_18648362?IADID=Search-www.sgvtribune.com-www.sgvtribune.com#ixzz1aautJKro

TNP'R
10-12-2011, 11:57 AM
So I'm just supposed to accept it when the 2 pitbulls down the street get out and horrifically maim or murder my 2 children, or my wife? I'm just supposed to ignore the fact that I know the guy's dogs are extremely violent? I'm supposed to ignore the fact that they get out, never intentionally, but they get out. I'm supposed to ignore the fact that even when the guy who owns the dogs is standing next to them, they are completely out of his control? And I'm supposed to ignore the fact that the other 100 houses in my same neighborhood that have dogs, none of them are a threat to my family?

And this guy spews all the same crap I hear from you guys. They aren't violent. They are misunderstood. They haven't ever hurt anyone. They love his family.

There are reasons people are generally not allowed to keep animals like tigers and wolves as pets. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Seriously, can you not see how people like myself are concerned? If Ceasar Millan lived on every street corner and could prevent all these attacks, injuries and deaths I wouldn't have a problem. But Ceasar doesn't live in my neighborhood, only the pitbulls do. Can you really not understand why I am concerned for my family's and neighbors safety?

Use your brain! Its the person that owns the dog not the breed itself! Should I be concerned that I own a Pit Bull I mean by you're logic i'm going to be attacked right this very second because hes laying next to me right as I type this. Should I fear for my life?? He lays his head on my neck when I sleep at night should I worry about him killing me in my sleep? You are being irrational and the media is to blame for it. I see people walking Pitbulls past my house all the time but do I freak out? Nope.

RedFord150
10-12-2011, 12:01 PM
"..."My point was simply to start a discussion about the LEO being justfied in shooting an attacking dog, but a citizen could face charges or civil liability for the exact same act."

Why would you assert something which has no factual basis? ...

Bernard Goetz is my factual basis.
You might remember him; he was the New York Subway passenger who shot 4 muggers in self defense and ended up in jail.

Which Way Out
10-12-2011, 12:10 PM
As a kid my folks took me to the pound and I picked a puppy pit. Raised it in a rual neighborhood with tons of kids. Never once had an issue. We all would teach him regular dog tricks and just overall had a great time.

As for today with all the legal issues, I would stay away from having one. I see people with them now and then and will pet the ones I feel a connection with. But as we all know, you can really never trust them.

TNP'R
10-12-2011, 12:12 PM
As a kid my folks took me to the pound and I picked a puppy pit. Raised it in a rual neighborhood with tons of kids. Never once had an issue. We all would teach him regular dog tricks and just overall had a great time.

As for today with all the legal issues, I would stay away from having one. I see people with them now and then and will pet the ones I feel a connection with. But as we all know, you can really never trust them.[/B]


Uh what we can't trust them? We can't trust any breed of dog that we don't know.

Which Way Out
10-12-2011, 12:21 PM
[/B]

Uh what we can't trust them? We can't trust any breed of dog that we don't know.

True we can't. I never put my hand out to pet a Chihuahua, those little guys almost always freak out:)

Dogs are all different. Trust some, I do. But am equally cautions on some as well.

SVT-40
10-12-2011, 12:33 PM
Bernard Goetz is my factual basis.
You might remember him; he was the New York Subway passenger who shot 4 muggers in self defense and ended up in jail.

Factual basis????? :facepalm:

Just how is a cop who kills two vicious dogs this week in Glendora California somehow related to anything Bernard Goetz did in New York back in 1984?

In New York at the time of the Bernard Goetz shooting unlicensed handguns were illegal. Oh and by the way he was only convicted of the illegal possession of a firearm charge. He was found innocent of all other charges.


Find a better analogy because that one sucks.

PanaDP
10-12-2011, 12:48 PM
Use your brain! Its the person that owns the dog not the breed itself! Should I be concerned that I own a Pit Bull I mean by you're logic i'm going to be attacked right this very second because hes laying next to me right as I type this. Should I fear for my life?? He lays his head on my neck when I sleep at night should I worry about him killing me in my sleep? You are being irrational and the media is to blame for it. I see people walking Pitbulls past my house all the time but do I freak out? Nope.

+100

I have a pitbull that has never done anything except lick the heck out of people. She does it the same way with men, women, young people and old. She might give you a little bruise from her tail, though. It's like a whip. Rosie is well-behaved and does what I tell her exactly when I tell her to do it. You know why? She's trained and she's trained well. I did that.

The only thing that pitbulls have is a very great capability to do harm if they are trained to it. A thousand years of breeding to be great boar and bear hunters made a pretty tough breed of dog. My dog can and has crushed 3" tree branches into splinters. She is a very capable dog in the chewing department but she lacks any training whatsoever to do that to people or other animals. She got bit by a poodle once, by the way, when she was too forward in licking it's butt. Poodles are the real killers, dontchaknow.;)

You should be getting pissed at the people that train the dogs to violence. Nobody seems afraid of german shepherds anymore but in the past they were as villainized as pits are now. Did they suddenly change their genetic makeup and become nice? Hell no! They went out of fashion with dog fighters and therefore the incidence of trained-to-be-violent german shepherds went way down and they became acceptable again. Same thing happened with dobermans.

For people who have probably told numerous people that "it's not the gun that does harm but the shooter," a lot of you guys sure can be ignorant about exactly the same issue with dogs. Just as a good shooter is still a good shooter with any firearm from an airgun to a .50BMG, I guarantee that a good animal trainer could make a trained killer out of any dog from a pitbull to a poodle.

RedFord150
10-12-2011, 1:01 PM
Factual basis????? :facepalm:

Just how is a cop who kills two vicious dogs this week in Glendora California somehow related to anything Bernard Goetz did in New York back in 1984? ....

Citizen uses gun in self defense. That is the comparison.
LEO legally authorized to carry a gun 24 hours a day. This includes outside of his house, on the street, etc.
Citizen is not authorized to carry a gun. The street in front of your house is not inside your house. How often are we told 'You may defend your life only
, inside your house. You chase the guy into the street, you got trouble. BTW, i have a fair amount of experience with the GPD. I not only live in the city, my son went through the Explorer program many years ago. At one time, I was fairly friendly with a Lieutenant (now retired) on that dept.
Back in 2001 (a lot more recent than 1984), the house next door to me was a serious issue. The owner was using it as a 'flop house' for dealers, prostitites, etc. We were calling the GPD daily, meeting with detectives, etc. The GPD was trying very hard to rid us of the 'bad element', without success.
At 4:30AM one morning, my family was awakened to the sounds of 3 guys beating the crap out of each other outside of my bedroom window. In fact, one of the guys was thrown against my outside wall. The inside of that wall was was my bed. I grabbed my revolver and called 911. Turns out the GPD was involved in a car chase with a burglary suspect. they had no units available. The dispatcher questioned me at length trying to find a way NOT to respond. As we talked, a car drove off. Once I told her this, she said they would be out once they had units available, the threat is gone. She kept her word. 3 hours later 2 cars showed up and interviewed the occupants. No arrests, but they got a stern 'talking to'. I call the Lt. and ask what I am supposed to do when I have grown men fighting on my property and no PD in sight. Lt. is very careful to remind me that I can defend inside my home. If I go outside with a gun, I will probably be arrested.
I am not making an LEO vs. citizen discussion here. I am simply pointing out that the LEO will not be questioned why he has a gun on the street, the citizen will.
Now calm down and quit taking this so personal.

TNP'R
10-12-2011, 1:04 PM
Citizen uses gun in self defense. That is the comparison.
LEO legally authorized to carry a gun 24 hours a day. This includes outside of his house, on the street, etc.
Citizen is not authorized to carry a gun. The street in front of your house is not inside your house. How often are we told 'You may defend your life only
, inside your house. You chase the guy into the street, you got trouble. BTW, i have a fair amount of experience with the GPD. I not only live in the city, my son went through the Explorer program many years ago. At one time, I was fairly friendly with a Lieutenant (now retired) on that dept.
Back in 2001 (a lot more recent than 1984), the house next door to me was a serious issue. The owner was using it as a 'flop house' for dealers, prostitites, etc. We were calling the GPD daily, meeting with detectives, etc. The GPD was trying very hard to rid us of the 'bad element', without success.
At 4:30AM one morning, my family was awakened to the sounds of 3 guys beating the crap out of each other outside of my bedroom window. In fact, one of the guys was thrown against my outside wall. The inside of that wall was was my bed. I grabbed my revolver and called 911. Turns out the GPD was involved in a car chase with a burglary suspect. they had no units available. The dispatcher questioned me at length trying to find a way NOT to respond. As we talked, a car drove off. Once I told her this, she said they would be out once they had units available, the threat is gone. She kept her word. 3 hours later 2 cars showed up and interviewed the occupants. No arrests, but they got a stern 'talking to'. I call the Lt. and ask what I am supposed to do when I have grown men fighting on my property and no PD in sight. Lt. is very careful to remind me that I can defend inside my home. If I go outside with a gun, I will probably be arrested.
I am not making an LEO vs. citizen discussion here. I am simply pointing out that the LEO will not be questioned why he has a gun on the street, the citizen will.
Now calm down and quit taking this so personal.


Yep the moment when you shoot someone fleeing you got major problems coming you're way its no longer about self defense but more revenge.

JeremyS
10-12-2011, 1:20 PM
Bernard Goetz is my factual basis.
You might remember him; he was the New York Subway passenger who shot 4 muggers in self defense and ended up in jail.
This is a terrible example. You are trying to show somebody who got prosecuted for justly defending themselves when a LEO would not have, but that wasn't the case here. He broke the law in New York and concealed an unlicensed firearm, which is all he was found guilty of.

From Wiki
Bernhard Goetz (legal name: Bernard Hugo Goetz) is an American man best known for shooting four young men who tried to mug him on a New York City Subway train, resulting in his conviction for illegal possession of a firearm. He came to symbolize New Yorkers’ frustrations with the high crime rates of the early 1980s. The incident occurred on a 2 train in Manhattan on December 22, 1984. It sparked a nationwide debate on vigilantism, the perceptions of race and crime in major cities, and the legal limits of self-defense.

Goetz fired an unlicensed revolver five times, seriously wounding all the alleged muggers...



.....


as for another comparison [hypothetically because I don't read all of their content in detail], if the Brady group had collected the valid data to support, oh lets's say Glock is the number one handgun used in gsw deaths in the US at 75%.. while Glocks are only, for arguements sake, 25% of the handguns owned in the US. while this most certainly could be challenged for many reasons and many ways, the fact still remains it was a Glock in the shooter's hands..

of course we all know the model of gun has nothing specifically to do with amount of crimes committed with them, regardless that 'gansta's carry Glocks' and 'criminals prefer Glocks' etc.. [made my own eyes roll there] however a dog is not an inanimate object like a gun.. it has a mind and body to think and act with.. surely everyone can see the difference..
Statistics like that lead people to want a ban on Glocks as well. The media will portray them as more dangerous, too easy to use, or whatever it takes to villify them and get them banned. People with no firearm experience look at the stats, nod their heads, and agree. You can't argue with stats. Same with pit bulls.

While dogs do have minds of their own, I only think there is a difference in the two arguments in so far as you completely disregard and deny the owner's control. A dog is under the control of its owner just like a gun is. That means how the dog is raised, trained, and supervised. I think this has much (much, much, much) more to do with the outcome of a dog than with its breed, and do not believe that pit bulls are inherantly more aggressive than other dogs. I believe they are very strong and that, when people raise them poorly or do not keep an eye on a dog with a bad disposition, you get deaths instead of minor bites like you get with a lot of other breeds. I do not believe that we should all use airsoft guns and have real firearms banned for the same reasoning.

PanaDP's comments on German Shepards a few posts up are right on:
Nobody seems afraid of german shepherds anymore but in the past they were as villainized as pits are now. Did they suddenly change their genetic makeup and become nice? Hell no! They went out of fashion with dog fighters and therefore the incidence of trained-to-be-violent german shepherds went way down and they became acceptable again. Same thing happened with dobermans.

TNP'R
10-12-2011, 1:25 PM
I did not mention a ban of any sort.. dog or otherwise.. I am not at all interested in what kind of pets or what kind of people keep them, so long as they are kept under control and not a threat to me or society.. once they are loose in public and begin to attack someone, for WHATEVER reason, then I am concerned.. again, regardless of breed.. I was simply stating the number of human deaths caused by this breed or its hybrids is incredibly high in comparison to its population share.. even with an error factor of 25% in the data collection, they would still be clear leaders in this category..



also don't know or care how pure the breed is that IS MOST OFTEN RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATHS resulting form dog attacks, but I am intelligent enough to be aware of their hybrids.. I could care less what kind of dog, or as I already posted, animal of any sort that is lethally attacking someone, I would participate in stopping it exactly the same way the Glendora officer did. PERIOD.



I'll assume that we can all differentiate data collected from the Center for Disease Control over a TWENTY YEAR PERIOD than that from a private interest group.. I think everyone on this forum is at least slightly familiar with the mechanisms of the Brady Campaign and their agenda.. I think it is foolish to even remotely believe the Center for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/about/organization/mission.htm) has anything at all in common.. furthermore, as I already said, I really do not care which breed it was but more the act.. however if I did, with very little google fu I'm sure there is other valid data to support similar conclusions..

as for another comparison [hypothetically because I don't read all of their content in detail], if the Brady group had collected the valid data to support, oh lets's say Glock is the number one handgun used in gsw deaths in the US at 75%.. while Glocks are only, for arguements sake, 25% of the handguns owned in the US.. while this most certainly could be challenged for many reasons and many ways, the fact still remains it was a Glock in the shooter's hands..

of course we all know the model of gun has nothing specifically to do with amount of crimes committed with them, regardless that 'gansta's carry Glocks' and 'criminals prefer Glocks' etc.. :rolleyes: [made my own eyes roll there] however a dog is not an inanimate object like a gun.. it has a mind and body to think and act with.. surely everyone can see the difference..

so, in summary, at no time did I accuse anyone of raising or breeding vicious, killer dogs.. or suggested they are aiding and abetting 'criminal' dogs.. simply that this breed is widely known to be responsible for the highest percentage of human deaths caused by dog attacks and it would be foolish to not be cautious when approached, possibly more cautious than when approaced by a stray pet goldfish..

Looking at statistics doesn't tell the whole story though you have to look at each case on a individual basis. We don't know the story behind each attack. But we do know that Pitbulls are commonly used as fighting dogs and that they are commonly starved and beaten. We also know that dogs that are raised properly are less likely to attack or kill someone. Looking at those numbers you can't judge an entire breed when you factor in the abuse that APT's take by they're low life owners.

We could look at the crime statistics of the United States and it would look pretty bad but should I be worried when I go outside? No of course not.

You should be cautious approaching any dog regardless of breed because even though statistics don't show it other breeds can be as deadly as APT's a stray dog can be dangerous no matter what breed.

JeremyS
10-12-2011, 1:28 PM
LEO legally authorized to carry a gun 24 hours a day. This includes outside of his house, on the street, etc.
Citizen is not authorized to carry a gun. The street in front of your house is not inside your house. How often are we told 'You may defend your life only
, inside your house.
You're wrong. California courts have repeatedly asserted that our right to openly carry a firearm is for defense of ourselves or of others in the public sphere. If a threat arises that justifies deadly force, we are to load our weapons and use them appropriately to save innocent life. In this scenario where somebody is being killed or maimed by a dog out on the street, you are absolutely, positively allowed to be in public with a [legally owned] loaded weapon to save that person.

This ability to defend ourselves by open carrying, by the way, is one of the biggest reasons concealed carry licensing reform has not happened in the state. The courts have said that our right to self defense is not violated because we can legally UOC, and load our weapon when necessary.

This is a perfect example of a necessary situation.


...and, the very first paragraph of the CA State Constitution:
Sec. 1. All men are by nature free and independent, and have certain inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property: and pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.
There is no asterisk that says "but only inside of your home"

JeremyS
10-12-2011, 1:33 PM
It's just that you have bought into the media hype blaming the breed, where most people familiar with pits blame the owners. The anti-gun crowd blames the guns, people like us who are familiar with guns blame crazy people.

Which breed it is goes in and out of favor with the media. Right now it's Pits. Dogs are animals and they can be dangerous. You should be aware of ALL large dogs capable of doing harm to you completely regardless of breed. Any one of them could be aggressive. When I'm walking in a bad part of town here, am I supposed to be aware of one race of people more than another because statistically they commit more crimes? It's exactly the same thing. ...and if your answer is "yes" to this then fine, that's your choice to take that mindset based on statistics and interpreting that as meaning one breed or one race is inherantly more violent...

RedFord150
10-12-2011, 1:40 PM
You're wrong. California courts have repeatedly asserted that our right to openly carry a firearm is for defense of ourselves or of others in the public sphere. If a threat arises that justifies deadly force, we are to load our weapons and use them appropriately to save innocent life. In this scenario where somebody is being killed or maimed by a dog out on the street, you are absolutely, positively allowed to be in public with a [legally owned] loaded weapon to save that person.

This ability to defend ourselves by open carrying, by the way, is one of the biggest reasons concealed carry licensing reform has not happened in the state. The courts have said that our right to self defense is not violated because we can legally UOC, and load our weapon when necessary.

This is a perfect example of a necessary situation.


...and, the very first paragraph of the CA State Constitution:

There is no asterisk that says "but only inside of your home"

Great response. These are the kind of facts I wanted too see. Apparently, I have been misinformed.
Now that UOC is banned, do you think the courts will respond differently?

JeremyS
10-12-2011, 1:44 PM
Now that UOC is banned, do you think the courts will respond differently?
My hope is that CCW reform will happen once people start challenging it again after the UOC ban goes into effect. At the very least, we deserve a system where the process and the "just cause" is the same in every county and the same for every person. It's always shocked me how CA, a state so concerned with equality, allows a system that is totally subjective and so horribly and blatantly skewed to those with money/power/political connections. In many counties if you aren't in government or chums with somebody who is, you cannot get a license, but if you are then you can.

UOC has truly been the one thing that the courts have leaned upon to explain that our rights (mostly that quote from the very first part of the CA constitution) are not violated by denying CCW's for no reason. Hopefully they will not be able to claim we have some other means of self defense against armed criminals or crazy dogs and they will set up a system where a real reason is necessary to deny somebody the ability to carry concealed.

Zion Lion
10-12-2011, 2:01 PM
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/307535_10150322471011699_170189871698_8222506_1004 404564_n.jpg

JeremyS
10-12-2011, 2:06 PM
...At 4:30AM one morning, my family was awakened to the sounds of 3 guys beating the crap out of each other outside of my bedroom window. In fact, one of the guys was thrown against my outside wall. The inside of that wall was was my bed...

...If I go outside with a gun, I will probably be arrested.
That sounded like a pretty scary situation, and I don't disagree with you on any of this. California is pretty picky about matching force. You aren't allowed to use or even present deadly force unless 'a rational person' would believe that they themselves were likely to be gravely injured otherwise. A fist fight on your lawn probably isn't a legal reason to pull a gun. You would have to believe -- and then sway a jury if it came to that -- that your life was in jeopardy and you were justified in responding with the threat of deadly force, and really that any rational person would have come to the same conclusion. If it's very obvious that it was justified, you shouldn't end up in court and you shouldn't face any charges to begin with (although you can bet there will be an investigation and you'd probably want a lawyer, etc).

S dot
10-12-2011, 2:10 PM
I don't know about y'all but I appreciate the fact that my dog would probably offer her life if she had to protect me or others. She is also just as fiercely friendly and lovable. She goes off leash at dog beach in del mar all the time. Never had a problem with another dog or human, even though plenty of other breeds/humans have tried to push her buttons. If you've ever seen a APBT try to swin in the ocean its good time. Def not the best swimmer but certainly the most willing.

Which Way Out
10-12-2011, 2:23 PM
That sounded like a pretty scary situation, and I don't disagree with you on any of this. California is pretty picky about matching force. You aren't allowed to use or even present deadly force unless 'a rational person' would believe that they themselves were likely to be gravely injured otherwise. A fist fight on your lawn probably isn't a legal reason to pull a gun. You would have to believe -- and then sway a jury if it came to that -- that your life was in jeopardy and you were justified in responding with the threat of deadly force, and really that any rational person would have come to the same conclusion. If it's very obvious that it was justified, you shouldn't end up in court and you shouldn't face any charges to begin with (although you can bet there will be an investigation and you'd probably want a lawyer, etc).

For the sake of conversation, wouldn't he be trying to save someones life in this situation? Sounds like that guy got the s*** beat out of him. Even if it was some sort of gang initiation. If so I don't think I would of jumped in.

RedFord150
10-12-2011, 2:45 PM
For the sake of conversation, wouldn't he be trying to save someones life in this situation? Sounds like that guy got the s*** beat out of him. Even if it was some sort of gang initiation. If so I don't think I would of jumped in.

It was clearly not a gang initiation. It was most likely a dispute over drugs or money. It happened several times while this problem was going on. The 4:30AM incident was the one that opened my eyes to the fact that I was on my own. PD just kept telling us to keep calling, we'll take care of it. Reality was they could only help me when it was convenient for them.
Another fight happened in their backyard on a Saturday morning. I was outside in my backyard working. As soon as the fight started, I grabbed my Dog and came inside and grabbed my gun. My concern was if someone decided to enter my property. I called PD and by the time they show up, everything is over, the guys are gone and no one admits to anything.
Wife asks why I brought the dog in. I tell her the losers may jump the fence and hurt the dog. I am not risking my dog to save their sorry *****e$.
Luckily for me, the bank foreclosed and got rid of the losers. The PD admitted to receiving 18 citizen complaints on that house in less than 30 days and still could not make an arrest.
I live in a mostly good neighborhood. In the past I have lived in bad areas. I lived in La Habra, about 5 blocks North of 'Gang Central'. I have actually had a drive-by shooting in front of my house. Luckily, they were shooting in another direction. This motivated me to move to Glendora, where I thought we would be completely safe. I was not completely correct in my beliefs.

JeremyS
10-12-2011, 2:52 PM
For the sake of conversation, wouldn't he be trying to save someones life in this situation? Sounds like that guy got the s*** beat out of him. Even if it was some sort of gang initiation. If so I don't think I would of jumped in.
Well it's a subjective thing so you have to be careful. There's a difference between getting beat up and getting murdered. To be justified in presenting deadly force you would not only have to be convinced yourself that the person was likely to be gravely injured, but would have to convince a jury that any rational person would have come to the same conclusion. This leaves a lot of fudge room and you better be darn sure.

If you truly feel the need to interject yourself into a situation like this, you should probably start with yelling and saying 'stop it' and 'I've called the cops' and whatever else. Then if the people start coming towards you, you're much more justified in pulling out a firearm.

But I would have done what RedFord did and stayed out of it. At least unless you really thought that somebody was about to be killed on your property and you cared, or if you thought it was about to endanger you and your family inside of your house (like a gunshot through the wall, or a break in).


P.S. -- keep in mind I'm not a lawyer (although my wife is). I've tried to read all of the relavent laws though and some case law. I'm sure I'm not on it 100% but erring on the side of caution and being certain that you're justified -- and that a jury would feel the same way if it came to that -- isn't going to be bad advice.

Which Way Out
10-12-2011, 2:56 PM
It was clearly not a gang initiation. It was most likely a dispute over drugs or money. It happened several times while this problem was going on. The 4:30AM incident was the one that opened my eyes to the fact that I was on my own. PD just kept telling us to keep calling, we'll take care of it. Reality was they could only help me when it was convenient for them.
Another fight happened in their backyard on a Saturday morning. I was outside in my backyard working. As soon as the fight started, I grabbed my Dog and came inside and grabbed my gun. My concern was if someone decided to enter my property. I called PD and by the time they show up, everything is over, the guys are gone and no one admits to anything.
Wife asks why I brought the dog in. I tell her the losers may jump the fence and hurt the dog. I am not risking my dog to save their sorry *****e$.
Luckily for me, the bank foreclosed and got rid of the losers. The PD admitted to receiving 18 citizen complaints on that house in less than 30 days and still could not make an arrest.
I live in a mostly good neighborhood. In the past I have lived in bad areas. I lived in La Habra, about 5 blocks North of 'Gang Central'. I have actually had a drive-by shooting in front of my house. Luckily, they were shooting in another direction. This motivated me to move to Glendora, where I thought we would be completely safe. I was not completely correct in my beliefs.

That crap is everywhere. I have a sister that lives in Glendora and so far so good for her.
Talk about past locations, I grew up in Moreno Valley. It was great back in the day. Then it went to h***.. I hope somehow gets better. Where I live now people say "Wow your lucky to live there". Let me tell ya there's a low life element here to.

rt66paul
10-12-2011, 3:31 PM
All dogs bite and larger breeds bite harder. Yes, dogs that are allowed to run loose can be violent and should be taken off the street. I am sure that this is not the first time this/these dogs have been in trouble. Remember that the .410 pistol was designed and sold to bicyclists that had big dogs chase them, this was fir the bicyclists' safety.

It isn't so much the breed as it is the size. There is a reason that .50 cal is not liked here in Cal. Many more people have been shot by .22 and .25 caliber weapons, even more have died - but a higher percentage of the people shot by larger caliber die, it just makes sense. it isn't the breed, any more than it isn't the caliber - but get a spreadsheet with some ratios on it - and you can prove anything, if the parameters are right.

rt66paul
10-12-2011, 3:39 PM
Google "hero dogs of 911", maybe you will change your mind.

DiscoBayJoe
10-12-2011, 3:45 PM
let them all run loose in a big closed arena... let's see what happens... :boxing_smiley:

It would look something like this:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/21953_328507416822_563416822_4669751_3826456_n.jpg

SVT-40
10-12-2011, 4:35 PM
That sounded like a pretty scary situation, and I don't disagree with you on any of this. California is pretty picky about matching force. You aren't allowed to use or even present deadly force unless 'a rational person' would believe that they themselves were likely to be gravely injured otherwise. A fist fight on your lawn probably isn't a legal reason to pull a gun. You would have to believe -- and then sway a jury if it came to that -- that your life was in jeopardy and you were justified in responding with the threat of deadly force, and really that any rational person would have come to the same conclusion. If it's very obvious that it was justified, you shouldn't end up in court and you shouldn't face any charges to begin with (although you can bet there will be an investigation and you'd probably want a lawyer, etc).

The standard is "reasonable" not "rational"......

In other words would it be "reasonable" for someone who hears a fight outside their home to arm himself and then go outside to intervene even though said person has no idea who was fighting or even if in fact the "fight" was truly a fight and not guys clowning around?

Same with LEO's if an LEO were to come upon a fight with no weapons involved would he be justified to use deadly force to breakup a simple fight?

The answer to both is no it would not be "reasonable".

SVT-40
10-12-2011, 4:53 PM
Citizen uses gun in self defense. That is the comparison.
LEO legally authorized to carry a gun 24 hours a day. This includes outside of his house, on the street, etc.
Citizen is not authorized to carry a gun. The street in front of your house is not inside your house. How often are we told 'You may defend your life only
, inside your house. You chase the guy into the street, you got trouble.


Wrong. A non LEO who is in reasonable fear for his or anothers life may arm himself, and use reasonable force to defend life.

BTW, i have a fair amount of experience with the GPD. I not only live in the city, my son went through the Explorer program many years ago. At one time, I was fairly friendly with a Lieutenant (now retired) on that dept.
Back in 2001 (a lot more recent than 1984), the house next door to me was a serious issue. The owner was using it as a 'flop house' for dealers, prostitites, etc. We were calling the GPD daily, meeting with detectives, etc. The GPD was trying very hard to rid us of the 'bad element', without success.
At 4:30AM one morning, my family was awakened to the sounds of 3 guys beating the crap out of each other outside of my bedroom window. In fact, one of the guys was thrown against my outside wall. The inside of that wall was was my bed. I grabbed my revolver and called 911. Turns out the GPD was involved in a car chase with a burglary suspect. they had no units available. The dispatcher questioned me at length trying to find a way NOT to respond. As we talked, a car drove off. Once I told her this, she said they would be out once they had units available, the threat is gone. She kept her word. 3 hours later 2 cars showed up and interviewed the occupants. No arrests, but they got a stern 'talking to'. I call the Lt. and ask what I am supposed to do when I have grown men fighting on my property and no PD in sight. Lt. is very careful to remind me that I can defend inside my home. If I go outside with a gun, I will probably be arrested.

As I said in another post here, just hearing a fight does not make it reasonable to intervene with a firearm.

Simply because you really don't need to go outside to defend your family, and because you really have no idea if in fact a crime is really occurring.



I am not making an LEO vs. citizen discussion here. I am simply pointing out that the LEO will not be questioned why he has a gun on the street, the citizen will.
Now calm down and quit taking this so personal.

Wrong again if an off duty LEO uses a firearm in a way which is not reasonable he too could face criminal penalties. He definitely would face internal discipline, which could include termination.




If you want to compare apples to apples. Just ask this simple question.

If a resident (non LEO) who lived near the location where the man was being mauled heard the victim screaming would it be reasonable for him to arm himself and then use deadly force to stop the attack?

The answer is a simple yes.

No need to interject any other superfluous and inaccurate comparisons.

SVT-40
10-12-2011, 4:56 PM
It would look something like this:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/21953_328507416822_563416822_4669751_3826456_n.jpg

Is the pup in the lower left of the photo a Australian cattle dog? If so they make great companions.

Sam .223
10-12-2011, 5:09 PM
i have a 2 yr old pit, she puts up with my 2 yr old son grabbing an pulling on her and has never once even growled at him, worst thing she has done is knocked him over while licking his face, she'd be the first one to hide under my bed if something happened like a bad guy breaking in, so no not all pits are evil demon dogs that are out to kill everyone in their path, good breeding and being raised properly by someone will produce a good dog in 99.9% of the time, there will always be that small amount that give the rest a bad name.

JeremyS
10-12-2011, 7:02 PM
The standard is "reasonable" not "rational"...
Haha, thanks. Duh. I knew it was one of those "r" words! ;)

Toolbox X
10-12-2011, 8:24 PM
I understand that the overwhelming majority of pitbulls are not a problem. The issue is that the percentage of pitbulls that are a problem is dramatically higher than ever other breed in existence. Maybe only 1-2% of pitbulls are huge problems. But that is compared to almost every other breed that of which 0.05% are a problem.

I'm willing to concede that dang near all of the PB's you guys own and love are not a problem and will never violently attack anyone. But where you guys are delusional is your thinking that the only pitbulls that violently attack people are the ones that are mistreated or trained to fight. That could not be further from the truth. I've read account after account of pitbulls that have been never been mistreated, never been abused, and they suddenly for zero reason, violently attack someone. Just look at that guy's pregnant wife who was recently killed by their perfectly raised and loved pitbull. And those people were huge pitbull advocates, just like you guys. It happens all the time.

If Ford made a car that violently exploded only 1-2% of the time, you would be crazy to take that kind of risk, especially when there are plenty of other cars out there that are just as good but only explode 0.05% of the time.

JeremyS
10-12-2011, 9:32 PM
...But where you guys are delusional is your thinking that the only pitbulls that violently attack people are the ones that are mistreated or trained to fight. That could not be further from the truth. I've read account after account of pitbulls that have been never been mistreated, never been abused, and they suddenly for zero reason, violently attack someone.
I don't think that means the breed is more prone to violence. I think it means they are big, strong dogs. I firmly believe this happens with many breeds, from Chihuahuas on up. When it happens with a big pit the results are bad.

If this is enough of a reason for you to not own one, that's 100% totally cool with me.

If this is enough of a reason for you to believe that nobody should be allowed to own one, I think that's taking it too far and forcing your choices on other people.

If you take this and believe that all of them should be put to death and breeding, importing, etc should be illegal then I think you're way off base.


Just like guns, when negligence causes injury or death to somebody, an irresponsible owner who's dog causes damage to somebody else should be hit with legal consequences (and they almost always are). Guns can be dangerous in the wrong hands, pit bulls can be dangerous in the wrong hands, and neither is a reason to make either illegal.

chim-chim7
10-12-2011, 10:17 PM
There are no bad dogs. Only bad owners.

ubet
10-13-2011, 7:38 AM
There are no bad dogs. Only bad owners.

Thats bs, I have heard the samething about horses. I am here to tell you, their are truly bad horses, and their are truly bad dogs, just as their are truly bad people. Some are just not wired to be any good, and are wired to be violent.

AAShooter
10-13-2011, 8:03 AM
A good knife may be crucial in situations like this.

TNP'R
10-13-2011, 8:11 AM
Thats bs, I have heard the samething about horses. I am here to tell you, their are truly bad horses, and their are truly bad dogs, just as their are truly bad people. Some are just not wired to be any good, and are wired to be violent.

But should we blame a whole breed?

Toolbox X
10-13-2011, 8:38 AM
But should we blame a whole breed?

YES!!!! That's the freaking point! Some breeds (ie rottweilers and pitbulls) are a HELLUVA LOT more likely to violently injure someone than other dog breeds. There are piles and piles of numbers to PROVE this.

Believe it or not you CAN generalize dog breeds. Some breeds are high energy, some are jumpers, some bark a lot, some don't bark a lot, some run fast, some tire slowly, some can pull a lot of weight, some can herd animals, some can hunt animals, and some are more prone to violent outbreaks.

While your pitbull only has a 2% chance of violently attacking someone, that same pitbull is 20,000 times more likely to attack someone than a retriever.

TNP'R
10-13-2011, 8:58 AM
YES!!!! That's the freaking point! Some breeds (ie rottweilers and pitbulls) are a HELLUVA LOT more likely to violently injure someone than other dog breeds. There are piles and piles of numbers to PROVE this.

Believe it or not you CAN generalize dog breeds. Some breeds are high energy, some are jumpers, some bark a lot, some don't bark a lot, some run fast, some tire slowly, some can pull a lot of weight, some can herd animals, some can hunt animals, and some are more prone to violent outbreaks.

While your pitbull only has a 2% chance of violently attacking someone, that same pitbull is 20,000 times more likely to attack someone than a retriever.


Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.Back in the 70s people hated rotts and dobermans they said they're brain swelled and that made them more likely to attack people.This is the same thing.

Like I said earlier numbers don't tell the whole story. You're on a mission to prove you're right but every dog expert on the planet agree's with me and others it's not the breed.

Why Are Some Pitbulls Aggressive?

Aggressive pitbulls are the direct result of mistreatment, abuse, and isolation—usually because of irresponsible ownership. For example, a pitbull that has been raised as a dog fighter or left alone for long periods of time is very dangerous to both humans and other animals simply because its quarrelsome behavior has been taught or reinforced.

However, unlike aggressive pitbulls, those raised in a loving home with lots of human contact will be very friendly towards people and will not turn on humans, contrary to popular belief.
http://dogtrainingbreeds.com/stop-dog-aggression/stop-aggressive-pitbulls

This is just one example you can find more if you google. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Toolbox X
10-13-2011, 9:04 AM
Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.

Go ahead. Choose to believe that every single dog on the planet, regardless of the breed, has exactly the same behavior, and nothing about dog breeds can be generalized. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just going to shake my head and walk away. I hope your pit never attacks anyone.

Farva
10-13-2011, 9:07 AM
YES!!!! That's the freaking point! Some breeds (ie rottweilers and pitbulls) are a HELLUVA LOT more likely to violently injure someone than other dog breeds. There are piles and piles of numbers to PROVE this.

Believe it or not you CAN generalize dog breeds. Some breeds are high energy, some are jumpers, some bark a lot, some don't bark a lot, some run fast, some tire slowly, some can pull a lot of weight, some can herd animals, some can hunt animals, and some are more prone to violent outbreaks.

While your pitbull only has a 2% chance of violently attacking someone, that same pitbull is 20,000 times more likely to attack someone than a retriever.

Provide scientific facts that prove the entire Pitbull breed, no matter if they are raised properly or not, are a ticking time bomb of death and destruction that cant be controlled through any amount of training.

Nobody is saying Pits arent capable of being dangerous in the wrong hands, or dont require proper training and care, but the dogs arent born as human killing machines. The fear mongering in this thread is disgusting.

TNP'R
10-13-2011, 9:08 AM
Go ahead. Choose to believe that every single dog on the planet, regardless of the breed, has exactly the same behavior, and nothing about dog breeds can be generalized. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just going to shake my head and walk away. I hope your pit never attacks anyone.

I never said that breeds are the same but a Pit Bull is not blood thirsty from birth and that is a FACT.

chim-chim7
10-13-2011, 9:10 AM
Provide scientific facts that prove the entire Pitbull breed, no matter if they are raised properly or not, are a ticking time bomb of death and destruction that cant be controlled through any amount of training.

Nobody is saying Pits arent capable of being dangerous in the wrong hands, or dont require proper training and care, but the dogs arent born as human killing machines. The fear mongering in this thread is disgusting.

:D I agree. Ignorance is bliss, some of these folk must have wonderfull lives. I think they watch too much tv.

Toolbox X
10-13-2011, 9:26 AM
I never said that breeds are the same but a Pit Bull is not blood thirsty from birth and that is a FACT.

98% of pitbulls are not bloodthirsty from birth. It's the 2% that are that I am worried about. That percentage is WAAAAAAY too high, compared to other dogs.

TNP'R
10-13-2011, 9:29 AM
98% of pitbulls are not bloodthirsty from birth. It's the 2% that are that I am worried about. That percentage is WAAAAAAY too high, compared to other dogs.

Lol ok go live in a padded room for the rest of your life and never go outside. Out of all the gun owners in the U.S 2% kill people,are you afraid of getting shot every day? Give it a rest man you sound like a liberal.

Farva
10-13-2011, 9:42 AM
98% of pitbulls are not bloodthirsty from birth. It's the 2% that are that I am worried about. That percentage is WAAAAAAY too high, compared to other dogs.

Then dont go outside if you are that afraid of a dog. The 2% as you say arent the dogs fault, they are raised improperly or they are strays that never got human interaction or training.

You are going to ban a breed of dog, and exterminate the breed because of it? Pits can be extremely dangerous, there is no denying that and you could argue they are very aggressive towards other dogs and animals, but they are never born human aggressive. With the proper training and care, your pit will not attack anyone because 'it just snapped into killer mode'. All these Pit attacks are from the same thing, people who cant control or care for the needs of that specific breed, its like giving a S&W500 to a virgin shooter who weighs 95lbs.

acaligunner
10-13-2011, 9:44 AM
Here are all the dogs that are listed on the BSL list (which means they are considered 'dangerous').



Absurd- definitely. All dogs need responsible owners who understand that keeping their dog safe and controlled is their job as a caregiver. If individuals are failing to do this, let them face the consequences. Don’t blame all the other dog owners who are stepping up to their role and keeping their dogs in check.

1. AIREDALE TERRIER
2. AKBASH
3. AKITA
4. ALAPAHA BLUE BLOOD BULLDOG
5. ALASKAN MALAMUTE
6. ALSATIAN SHEPHERD
7. AMERICAN BULLDOG
8. AMERICAN HUSKY
9. AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER
10. AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER
11. AMERICAN WOLFDOG
12. ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD
13. ARIKARA DOG
14. AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG
15. AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD
16. BELGIAN MALINOIS
17. BELGIAN SHEEPDOG
18. BELGIAN TURVUREN
19. BLUE HEELER
20. BOERBOL
21. BORZOI
22. BOSTON TERRIER
23. BOUVIER DES FLANDRES
24. BOXER
25. BULLDOG
26. BULL TERRIER
27. BULL MASTIFF
28. CANE CORSO
29. CATAHOULA LEOPARD DOG
30. CAUCASIAN SHEPHERD
31. CHINESE SHAR PEI
32. CHOW-CHOW
33. COLORADO DOG
34. DOBERMAN PINSCHER
35. DOGO DE ARGENTINO
36. DOGUE DE BORDEAUX
37. ENGLISH MASTIFFS
38. ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL
39. ESKIMO DOG
40. ESTRELA MOUNTAIN DOG
41. FILA BRASILIERO
42. FOX TERRIER
43. FRENCH BULLDOG
44. GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG
45. GOLDEN RETRIEVER
46. GREENLAND HUSKY
47. GREAT DANE
48. GREAT PYRANEES
49. ITALIAN MASTIFF
50. KANGAL DOG
51. KEESHOND
52. KOMONDOR
53. KOTEZEBUE HUSKY
54. KUVAZ
55. LABRADOR RETRIEVER
56. LEONBERGER
57. MASTIFF
58. NEOPOLITAN MASTIFF
59. NEWFOUNDLAND
60. OTTERHOUND
61. PRESA DE CANARIO
62. PRESA DE MALLORQUIN
63. PUG
64. ROTTWEILER
65. SAARLOOS WOLFHOND
66. SAINT BERNARD
67. SAMOYED
68. SCOTTISH DEERHOUND
69. SIBERIAN HUSKY
70. SPANISH MASTIFF
71. STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER
72. TIMBER SHEPHERD
73. TOSA INU
74. TUNDRA SHEPHERD
75. WOLF SPITZ


My GOD, it's like a war zone out there. So when they get rid of the 'man killer' guess who there gonna come after next, because if you have one of these dogs, YOUR ON THE LIST to get your dogs taken away from you.

acg

Toolbox X
10-13-2011, 9:48 AM
Lol ok go live in a padded room for the rest of your life and never go outside. Out of all the gun owners in the U.S 2% kill people,are you afraid of getting shot every day? Give it a rest man you sound like a liberal.

If 2% of gun owners killed people there were be blood in the streets and no one would stand for it.

The actual percentage of gun owners that kill people is around 0.01% or 1 in 10,000.

You're the one who sounds like a liberal, dismissing numbers and stats, emotionally tied to your cause. I get it, you have a pitbull so for you it's personal. I hope you can recognize that you are in no way whatsoever impartial. You mind is made up, regardless of what information is presented to you.

acaligunner
10-13-2011, 10:03 AM
Toolbox X;

If 2% of gun owners killed people there were be blood in the streets and no one would stand for it.

Guns are responsible for more deaths than apbt dog attacks. Look at all the gun bans in (lets say Ca), compared to pit bull bans?

The actual percentage of gun owners that kill people is around 0.01% or 1 in 10,000.

You sure do know a lot about statistics. I'll give you that.

You're the one who sounds like a liberal, dismissing numbers and stats, emotionally tied to your cause. I get it, you have a pitbull so for you it's personal. I hope you can recognize that you are in no way whatsoever impartial. You mind is made up, regardless of what information is presented to you.

Here a question for you. Have you ever owned a Pit bull?

Why should we take your word about this breed of dog, please tell us your personal experience with apbt dogs, or their behavior.

Like I said before, guns have a much 'higher' kill ratio, as well as cars, beer, etc, etc.

Did you happen to miss the part where I stated that the CDC, ER Doctors, and almost ever law enforcement dept, has publicly stated that keeping firearms in the house, or ownership of firearms, where likely to cause the death of their owners.

Throw in suicide, murder, and accidental gun deaths, and anyone could argue that we don't need firearms, as well.

The percentages are all there, conducted by highly trained professionals.

So do you really want to live by these stats?

acg

Farva
10-13-2011, 10:20 AM
If 2% of gun owners killed people there were be blood in the streets and no one would stand for it.

The actual percentage of gun owners that kill people is around 0.01% or 1 in 10,000.

You're the one who sounds like a liberal, dismissing numbers and stats, emotionally tied to your cause. I get it, you have a pitbull so for you it's personal. I hope you can recognize that you are in no way whatsoever impartial. You mind is made up, regardless of what information is presented to you.

Personal responsibility > banning whatever dog you deem unsafe.

If you own a pit, and dont train and care for it properly you will get in trouble with the law like anything else.

golfrj
10-13-2011, 10:21 AM
Go ahead. Choose to believe that every single dog on the planet, regardless of the breed, has exactly the same behavior, and nothing about dog breeds can be generalized. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just going to shake my head and walk away. I hope your pit never attacks anyone.


Tool, you may as well Give It Up.. This is Extremely Personal with some of our members, It is like suggesting bad genes in their family.. Just let it go...

Toolbox X
10-13-2011, 10:39 AM
From the CDC

Each year, 800,000 Americans seek medical attention for dog bites; half of these are children. Of those injured, 386,000 require treatment in an emergency department and about 16 die. The rate of dog bite-related injuries is highest for children ages 5 to 9 years, and the rate decreases as children age.

Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks between 1979 and 1998: (http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf)

Purebred
Pit bull-type 66
Rottweiler 39
German Shepherd Dog 17
Husky-type 15
Malamute 12
Doberman Pinscher 9
Chow Chow 8
Great Dane 7
Saint Bernard 7

Crossbred
Wolf-dog hybrid 14
Mixed-breed 12
German Shepherd Dog 10
Pit bull-type 10
Husky-type 6
Rottweiler 5
Alaskan Malamute 3
Chow Chow 3
Doberman Pinscher 2
Saint Bernard 1

These numbers only represent fatalities. They do not include non-fatal injuries. For every fatal dog attack there are roughly 32,000 non-fatal attacks that require emergency room treatment. Looking at these numbers it is easy to see which breeds are the most dangerous, and which are not.

More info from the CDC:
Intact (unneutered) male dogs represented 80% of dogs presented to veterinary behaviorists for dominance aggression, the most commonly
diagnosed type of aggression. Intact males are also involved in 70 to 76% of reported dog bite incidents.

This info is incredibly valuable and a huge generalization can be made. Un-neutered pitbull and rottweiler males are obviously the majority of problem.

Can anyone find info on the number of dogs in the US by breed? I run into the number 60 million quite a bit for the total of all dogs, but I can't find numbers for specific breeds. The AKC shows dog registration stats, but that isn't very helpful.

acaligunner
10-13-2011, 11:19 AM
So your saying everyone that owns a pit bull or pit bull type dog, is going to be fatally attacked?

Also, besides pulling statistics out here on this topic, do you have any personal experience with the apbt breed.

I mean, you suggest that you know something about the apbt breed, please inform us on why you believe you are qualified to talk on the apbt topic.

Can you also show me where in the breeds history that it has been documented that the apbt breed was originally breed to be human aggressive or unstable.

I know you think you mean well, but without ever being a apbt owner, you are just quoting statistics that apbt owners, really don't care for.

I know owners, who properly breed and raise their apbt's. I also attend apbt dog shows, (there is one this November)- and have not seen these man killers that you talk about.

acaligunner

coltn46920
10-13-2011, 11:28 AM
arshole pitbulls have arshole owners who raise them to be arshole dogs.

Every time you hear of an attack it involves a pit? If that is true, that is only because arsholes get pits with the intentions of raising them to be arshole dogs. It isn't because the pitbull is a horrible creature by nature, sorry.

They should ban all pits? You sound like gun grabbers who say we should all have our guns taken away because ******* owners used their firearms in an improper manner. Don't target all pitbull owners.

Target the ones who breed/raise arshole pitbulls, like those in this case. In this case, the dogs needed to be taken down. But please don't say that all pitbulls need to be put down because a few specific owners are irresponsible.

Why should a responsible pit owner be punished because of a few idiots? Should all of our guns be taken away because of a few idiots?

People love to point the finger, but remember there are always three pointed back at you.

:iagree:
People complain about the media being biased on one subject, than use it as a reference for something they think should be banned.:facepalm:

Dogs and guns have one thing in common a small percentage of irresponsible owners.

That does not mean they should all be banned.

TNP'R
10-13-2011, 12:03 PM
From the CDC

Each year, 800,000 Americans seek medical attention for dog bites; half of these are children. Of those injured, 386,000 require treatment in an emergency department and about 16 die. The rate of dog bite-related injuries is highest for children ages 5 to 9 years, and the rate decreases as children age.

Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks between 1979 and 1998: (http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf)

Purebred
Pit bull-type 66
Rottweiler 39
German Shepherd Dog 17
Husky-type 15
Malamute 12
Doberman Pinscher 9
Chow Chow 8
Great Dane 7
Saint Bernard 7

Crossbred
Wolf-dog hybrid 14
Mixed-breed 12
German Shepherd Dog 10
Pit bull-type 10
Husky-type 6
Rottweiler 5
Alaskan Malamute 3
Chow Chow 3
Doberman Pinscher 2
Saint Bernard 1

These numbers only represent fatalities. They do not include non-fatal injuries. For every fatal dog attack there are roughly 32,000 non-fatal attacks that require emergency room treatment. Looking at these numbers it is easy to see which breeds are the most dangerous, and which are not.

More info from the CDC:


This info is incredibly valuable and a huge generalization can be made. Un-neutered pitbull and rottweiler males are obviously the majority of problem.

Can anyone find info on the number of dogs in the US by breed? I run into the number 60 million quite a bit for the total of all dogs, but I can't find numbers for specific breeds. The AKC shows dog registration stats, but that isn't very helpful.

My pit is neutered as required by the law when rescuing an animal from a shelter.

Toolbox X
10-13-2011, 2:56 PM
So your saying everyone that owns a pit bull or pit bull type dog, is going to be fatally attacked?

Nope, never said that. I said over 98% of pitbulls are fine. It's the 2% who violently attack people I have a problem with.

I've also narrowed down that pretty much only non-neutered male pitbulls fall into the category of totally unpredictable pitbulls that may violently attack.

You really need me to show you how pitbulls were bread into violent fighting dogs during the 1970's and 1980's and how that breeding spilled over into the non-fighting dogs? You don't believe that happened? I haven't been to the Auschwitz concentration camp but I'm damn sure the holocost happened.

You fall into the category of 'putbull owner' so the issue is so personal and emotional that you cannot see the forest from the trees. I'm not a pitbull owner, I'm a father of two little boys. If you want to get me talking about what I would physically do to you should your family pitbull maim or kill one of my son's, that would be VERY bad. My emotions get going just thinking about it. <brrrrrrrrr> I sure hope that never happens. Temporary insanity doesn't begin to describe the horror that would come down upon you. But that's why I could never be impartial about a situation where a pitbull attacked a child. I'm too emotionally involved because I have children of my own.

JeremyS
10-13-2011, 3:27 PM
From the CDC

Each year, 800,000 Americans seek medical attention for dog bites; half of these are children. Of those injured, 386,000 require treatment in an emergency department and about 16 die. The rate of dog bite-related injuries is highest for children ages 5 to 9 years, and the rate decreases as children age.

.....

These numbers only represent fatalities. They do not include non-fatal injuries. For every fatal dog attack there are roughly 32,000 non-fatal attacks that require emergency room treatment.
So here's the deal.

You are arguing that pit bulls are, by nature, more aggressive and more likely to attack a human than other breeds. I do not believe that anything you have posted shows this. You are posting numbers that show that pit bulls are more likely to kill somebody when they attack. I have not disputed this because they are obviously very large, powerful dogs and if they are intent on doing damage they are going to be more capable of that than a corgy.

HOWEVER, in no way do your numbers suggest that pit bulls actually bite people or turn on people more than other breeds. They only suggest that the 16 fatal attacks out of 800,000 annual attacks are mostly pit bulls. Maybe 799,984 attacks are by teacup poodles, 9 are by pit bulls and are fatal, 4 are rottweilers, 2 are german sheps, 1 is a husky.

These numbers say nothing about temperment of the breed. For all you know, pit bulls could have the lowest percentage of attacks on humans out of every dog breed on the planet. It's fully possible for that to be true and for it to be true that they cause the majority of deaths.

I obviously believe the truth is that the breed, in general, is of dogs with a friendly disposition who absolutely love humans and are LESS likely to bite or get angry at a human than nearly any other breed. I do not deny that they are more dangerous than most other breeds if they do attack.

Does this make sense? Do you see how your numbers on fatal attacks don't show temperment? If you could find a breakdown of those 800,000 anual dog attacks by breed, then you would be closer to something that shows how likely any given breed is to bite a human, which would show disposition and likelyhood that a specific dog of a specific breed might attack you.

Jeremy

acaligunner
10-13-2011, 4:05 PM
Toolbox X;

Nope, never said that. I said over 98% of pitbulls are fine. It's the 2% who violently attack people I have a problem with.

You have a problem with, Well your whole idea about the apbt is bs. You are just swinging in the dark like a little girl, trying to get everyone's attention. And then when we look, you don't have anything smart to say.

I've also narrowed down that pretty much only non-neutered male pitbulls fall into the category of totally unpredictable pitbulls that may violently attack.

There have been plenty of non-neutered dogs that haven't attacked anyone.

You really need me to show you how pitbulls were bread into violent fighting dogs during the 1970's and 1980's and how that breeding spilled over into the non-fighting dogs? You don't believe that happened? I haven't been to the Auschwitz concentration camp but I'm damn sure the holocost happened.

Once again you show everyone here that you are an idiot. Fighting dogs are breed to be non aggressive towards humans.

They where breed to BE HANDLED BY HUMANS IN THE PIT. That's why there was a referee, and 2 human handlers, plus all the people at pit side.

If we go by your theory, then after the dogs killed each other, they would turn on their owners. Stupid.

They where breed to be non aggressive towards humans so that at there worst, they could be handled by humans. There are rules to pit fights, and they are fought by humans.


You fall into the category of 'putbull owner' so the issue is so personal and emotional that you cannot see the forest from the trees. I'm not a pitbull owner, I'm a father of two little boys. If you want to get me talking about what I would physically do to you should your family pitbull maim or kill one of my son's, that would be VERY bad. My emotions get going just thinking about it. <brrrrrrrrr> I sure hope that never happens. Temporary insanity doesn't begin to describe the horror that would come down upon you. But that's why I could never be impartial about a situation where a pitbull attacked a child. I'm too emotionally involved because I have children of my own.

KEEP DREAMING **** BALL. No wonder you had to use the cdc stats, you sound like an idiot.

You want to find me, pm me, or go to the nov 26 27 th apbt dog show, I'll be there.

acaligunner

Toolbox X
10-13-2011, 5:20 PM
Acaligunner, you have provided zero information or evidence about anything. Your entire emotional argument is based solely on you owning a pit bull that you like a whole lot. Please excuse me while I dismiss everything you say.

Jeremy, you are smart. I see what you are saying exactly. The hypothesis could be made that pit bulls are the dog breed with the fewest attacks out of all dog breeds, but the most fatal when they do attack. I surmise that hypothesis is wrong and that pit pulls account for a disproportionate number of attacks and injuries, just like thy cause a disproportionate number of fatalities. But i have no evidence of that. That doesn't mean I am wrong or you are correct, but all posibilities exist.

The information we are missing is a breakdown of dog attacks that send people to the emergency room broken down by breed. We also need to know how many of the 60 million dogs in the US are pit bulls. Do you have any idea where we can find that info. I've found almost all of the information on the pro and anti pit bull websites to be completely unreliable because of their obvious bias and conflict of interest. Only the CDC has been reliable.

guitar-nut
10-13-2011, 5:46 PM
I can't stand pits or most of the people who own them (no offense to upstanding owners, I used to work in the ghetto and saw nothing but pitbulls), but they definitely should not be banned.

I'll stick with my Doberman. Great personality, not overbred/inbred, and still scary as **** when you need them to be.

acaligunner
10-13-2011, 5:50 PM
Acaligunner, you have provided zero information or evidence about anything. Your entire emotional argument is based solely on you owning a pit bull that you like a whole lot. Please excuse me while I dismiss everything you say.

Jeremy, you are smart. I see what you are saying exactly. The hypothesis could be made that pit bulls are the dog breed with the fewest attacks out of all dog breeds, but the most fatal when they do attack. I surmise that hypothesis is wrong and that pit pulls account for a disproportionate number of attacks and injuries, just like thy cause a disproportionate number of fatalities. But i have no evidence of that. That doesn't mean I am wrong or you are correct, but all posibilities exist.

The information we are missing is a breakdown of dog attacks that send people to the emergency room broken down by breed. We also need to know how many of the 60 million dogs in the US are pit bulls. Do you have any idea where we can find that info. I've found almost all of the information on the pro and anti pit bull websites to be completely unreliable because of their obvious bias and conflict of interest. Only the CDC has been reliable.

Once again, you live in a dream world. You want facts, just look into the number of apbt owners that have been raising these dogs, and are alive. :facepalm:

You wont even take the words of those that have raised, and cared for these dogs, and yet you stupidly state that you know more.

Once again take all your firearms to the local pd station, and have them melted down. That way you don't have to worry about your family having to deal with the multiple deaths caused by guns in the home. Or don't you care about your children.

You are truly blinded by your bias towards the breed, and come here with nothing more than what you have looked up.

Keep dreaming about that 2%, while you look out the window, afraid of what 's looking back at you. haha.

The first time you didn't drop your glorified stats, you sounded like a total goof.

Somebody should have told you that you only talk about what you know. Since you do not personally know nothing about the breed you should take your foolishness elsewhere.

acaligunner

chim-chim7
10-13-2011, 7:40 PM
Cesar Milan(spelling) has been working with pits most of his life and has rehabilitated thousands of pits that were mistreated by owners. He said its not the breed its the way they are raised and in most cases can be reversed. I believe him. He helpes rehabilitate the fighting dogs from Mike Vicks compound. AWESOME DUDE!

Jbone83
10-13-2011, 9:20 PM
The bottom line here is that you are far more likely to be attacked or killed by another HUMAN BEING than you are to ever be attacked or killed by a pit bull. If you are so afraid of being attacked by a pit bull that you want the entire breed eradicated, you should probably consider locking yourself up in a rubber room somewhere because there are far greater threats in this world than a breed of domesticated dog.

DiscoBayJoe
10-13-2011, 9:25 PM
Is the pup in the lower left of the photo a Australian cattle dog? If so they make great companions.

Yes she's a stumpy-tail australian cattle dog, I found her running around on a highway. She was skunked , had worms, and was hungry. I cleaned her up and tried to find her owners with no luck. She had no collar and wasn't tagged. By the time she was put back together, we decided to keep her.

She has some strange fearful agression which I think is a partial side effect from her stray period. Even after 4 years she doesn't fully trust people..... but she's totally bonded to me and the pitbull. She is like Velcro on me whenever i'm home. When i'm gone, she velcro's to the pit. Her herding instinct is very strong. I think she think's the Pit is a cow!

rt66paul
10-13-2011, 11:00 PM
I would like to know where that 2% of pitt bulls are violent to people came from? Terriers will attack other animals and dogs, that is what they were bred to do. Fighting in a pit was later and it is not easy to get them to do that. While I do not condone this, I have known a few people that did this and for the most part, even though those dogs were fought(in Mexico), these dogs were very mellow when he was around. I wouldn't go over his fence at night, but that is not a good idea, even when it is only a small dog of any breed.
These dogs are very powerful, but terriers are the most playful dogs and have a lot of energy. They are also smart and loyal. If I lived in an "iffy" neighborhood, my daughters would have big dogs to take everywhere, I would feel much safer.

There are always bad dogs, just like there are bad humans, but there is usually some indication that they have problems.

This is just the same as anything else, we must be responsible citizens. If something we own causes someone to be hurt in any of their normal legal actions, we are wrong and should be held accountable. If you have a vicious pitt bull, you have to keep it contained and on a leash when not on your property. Don't blame the dog, it is the owner that is to blame here.

TNP'R
10-15-2011, 3:39 PM
In another incident Friday, a man walking on Mascot Avenue in the Fruitridge area was chased and bitten by a German Shepherd.
http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2011/10/dog-bite-electricity-theft-occur-near-vacant-sacramento-homes.html

Yep its just those vicious pit bulls biting everyone!

Shadowdrop
10-16-2011, 4:49 AM
What about that story several months back where the pits who were raised right attacked and killed one of its masters who was pregnant?

What happened was, the lady fell off a ladder and died. Her dog had nothing to do with her death, other than getting blood on his nose when he tried to wake up his dead owner. The media sensationalized the dog angle because it happened to be a pit bull. Then morons perpetuated the false story by continually using it as an argument against pit bull ownership.

Did you mean that story?

Toolbox X
10-16-2011, 9:41 AM
What happened was, the lady fell off a ladder and died. Her dog had nothing to do with her death, other than getting blood on his nose when he tried to wake up his dead owner. The media sensationalized the dog angle because it happened to be a pit bull. Then morons perpetuated the false story by continually using it as an argument against pit bull ownership.

Did you mean that story?

Most Pit bull advocates will make up excuses to explain away the unprovoked violent pit bull attacks. When you desperately want something to not be true some people flat out lie of severely twist information.

The “ladder” story too is a story by a woman, Cindy Marabito, who’s a pit bull advocate and lives in Texas—she only says in her article–”neighbors say . . .” she fell off a ladder . . . but gives no substantiation or source for claim. I’ve researched and researched and found absolutely no one else mentioning a ladder, including quotes from the husband, who’s even said he wants the dog’s ashes buried with his wife . . .

I heard there was going to be an autopsy. If you find anything on it please share.

acaligunner
10-16-2011, 11:30 AM
Toolbox X;Most Pit bull advocates will make up excuses to explain away the unprovoked violent pit bull attacks. When you desperately want something to not be true some people flat out lie of severely twist information.

Spoken like a man who knows nothing about the breed, or it's temperament.


I heard there was going to be an autopsy. If you find anything on it please share.

Tell us why we should listen to you again, You are an idiot. Let you know about someone's autopsy > Really.

Why don't you go start your study on the 60 million dogs out there, and bow out now.

You are not a breeder, a owner, or have any personal experience with the breed, and then you come here talking about desperately trying to understand something.

Ok, lets just say you are swinging in the dark here. Like I told you before, Keep dreaming ball.

acaligunner

Toolbox X
10-16-2011, 12:57 PM
All I said was the ladder story in the case of the pregnant Pacifica woman is a blatent lie be perpetrated by fanatic pittbull owners. The pregnant woman was murdered by her perfectly raised from a puppy, un-neutered pittbull. If I understood correctly there was going to be an autopsy. I would like to know the results.

rromeo
10-16-2011, 1:19 PM
Blame the deed, not the breed.

m98
10-16-2011, 1:40 PM
I know there are tons of folks that Love those Pit Bull Doggies, BUT I am NOT one ( I know, I know, if you raise them with love they will be Wonderful Doggies,**** B.S.****).. Everytime I hear of an attack it involves a Pit, maybe we should consider not breeding any more of these Mentally Unbalanced animals, one minute they are loving pets, the Next Minute they are at someones throat... JMHO

+1-x1000^^^^what he said....i especially hate seeing the low life thugs walking down the streets in saggd pants doing the penguin walk all while dragging along thier ugly lookn pit bulls

m98
10-16-2011, 2:02 PM
How do you, we, or anyone else know how that dog was actually raised behind close doors?

You don't.

Yahoo news? News period? The media period? Come on now. Let's actually weigh the validity of the source.

Please contact the owner of the pit and ask him to see if he'll happily accept another pitbull as his future companion.

A pit is NOT like a firearm. A firearm does not have a retarted brain like a pit thus it cannot kill anyone by itself even if it wanted to.

acaligunner
10-16-2011, 2:13 PM
+1-x1000^^^^what he said....i especially hate seeing the low life thugs walking down the streets in saggd pants doing the penguin walk all while dragging along thier ugly lookn pit bulls

So going by what you say, every time I watch a tv show of GANGLAND, and see the same people waving guns around, I should immediately call for a ban on guns?

The person you are using for an example, has no knowledge about the apbt breed.

acaligunner

acaligunner
10-16-2011, 2:19 PM
m98;

Please contact the owner of the pit and ask him to see if he'll happily accept another pitbull as his future companion.

Please if you are going to comment, use the correct term for the breed. The dog is not called 'pit' it's called apbt.

Contact the owner, why? If he has done something wrong, or caused harm to someone, I am sure the Police or ac will already be at his door.

If a dog owner chooses a breed of dog, that is his choice, not yours to make.

A pit is NOT like a firearm. A firearm does not have a retarted brain like a pit thus it cannot kill anyone by itself even if it wanted to.

Once again they are not 'pits'.

Go back and look up what I have posted on guns & dogs.

Can you please explain to us how the breed on a whole, has a 'retarted' brain, when if you would have looked, or researched you will find that the apbt has a stable temperament, and was not breed to be human aggressive.

Buy a book and look at the difference between human and animal aggression.

acaligunner

m98
10-16-2011, 2:22 PM
Maybe a 10 day waiting period on pitbull purchases? We can DROS their jaws too as that is the "weapon" part of the animal too. ;)

And cap the teeth limit to 10 with a max canine tooth length of 10mm.

m98
10-16-2011, 2:28 PM
m98;



Please if you are going to comment, use the correct term for the breed. The dog is not called 'pit' it's called apbt.

Contact the owner, why? If he has done something wrong, or caused harm to someone, I am sure the Police or ac will already be at his door.

If a dog owner chooses a breed of dog, that is his choice, not yours to make.



Once again they are not 'pits'.

Go back and look up what I have posted on guns & dogs.

Can you please explain to us how the breed on a whole, has a 'retarted' brain, when if you would have looked, or researched you will find that the apbt has a stable temperament, and was not breed to be human aggressive.

Buy a book and look at the difference between human and animal aggression.

acaligunner


Wow......Thats it.......I rest my case.

rt66paul
10-17-2011, 3:19 PM
....................... Sue the Owner, and say Bad Doggie No Breeding for you.. In a few short years the Mental Problems will be bred out of the animals.. JMHO
There are people that say this about Felons



Responsible dog owners spay and neuter their pets.

golfrj
10-17-2011, 4:51 PM
There are people that say this about Felons



Responsible dog owners spay and neuter their pets.


Yeah, I have heard that too, and Maybe in the case of Extremely Violent Felons it might be a good idea, gotta cleanse that gene pool somehow.. Animals/People that act Violently out of the Norm definetely have Mental Problems that allow them to do things you & I would Not.. JMHO

Deadbolt
10-17-2011, 4:54 PM
Well if a normal citizen would had even taken the gun out side and shot the dogs he'd be lucky if he would not be shot for having a weapon in his hands...

pretty sure the retired fire chief would support the "citizen's" story and it would be a 'good shoot' story.


I'm all for holding a chaste system accountable - but don't drum up examples of citizen tiers where there are none. Glad the poor guy turned out ok in the end, must have been terrifying!

edit: and as a dog owner and lover (oh baby :43: ) - good shoot - owner's at fault, should have had better facilities to keep the dogs restrained if they were dangerous.

Michaeln
11-07-2011, 7:48 PM
Next time shoot the dog owner.