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chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 7:49 AM
243 wssm Ar15 built by Dtech. This one is designed to be mated with the new UMAR lower and shoot the ultra long VLD type bullets. The purpose of this system is to offer a rifle capable of long range precision for the long range hunter or target shooter and to also have a viable rifle for brush country hunting or depredation purposes.

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/chicoredneck/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4439.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/chicoredneck/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_5402.jpg

r3dn3ck
10-11-2011, 8:32 AM
ok I'll bite as I'm terribly interested.

how on earth does the .54" case head fit in the bolt and provide enough locking lug? Are the lugs reduced size? Special bolt head? Special upper?

Tell more.

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 8:41 AM
ok I'll bite as I'm terribly interested.

how on earth does the .54" case head fit in the bolt and provide enough locking lug? Are the lugs reduced size? Special bolt head? Special upper?

Tell more.

The bolt carrier has a larger opening for a larger bolt head. The locking lugs are actually a little larger than on a normal 223 bolt face. The barrel extension and upper reciever have different dimensions than a standard AR, but they still fit on a standard lower reciever.

I can take a picture comparing the two different bolts (223/243wssm) next to each other if your interested and post it later.

Super Spy
10-11-2011, 9:10 AM
How heavy is that thing? The barrel looks pretty beefy....

VaderSpade
10-11-2011, 9:15 AM
I just built a .25 WSSM with an Olympic Arms game stalker upper.

I love it so far, it's 4 pounds lighter than my .260 and it seems to shoot a little flatter. I’ve had a couple feeding problems that I haven’t had time to address, I’m sure it’s the magazine.

What modifications have been made to your lower, and magazines?

supersonic
10-11-2011, 9:24 AM
Nice rifle. As much as I hate to say this, I feel that I must: be prepared to buy a new barrel between the 1000-2000 round mark (maybe even less). All the WSSM's start to show noticeable throat erosion after just fifty rounds in a new barrel. These 'super shorts' are vicious speed demons, but all that performance comes with a hefty price to pay. Also, if you reload, be very careful and work up your loads S-L-O-W-L-Y! High pressure signs can begin to show in even medium-powered loads. Watch for bulged case heads once you go above the start grain loads. Good luck & have a blast.

VaderSpade
10-11-2011, 9:33 AM
Nice rifle. As much as I hate to say this, I feel that I must: be prepared to buy a new barrel between the 1000-2000 round mark (maybe even less). All the WSSM's start to show noticeable throat erosion after just fifty rounds in a new barrel. These 'super shorts' are vicious speed demons, but all that performance comes with a hefty price to pay. Also, if you reload, be very careful and work up your loads S-L-O-W-L-Y! High pressure signs can begin to show in even medium-powered loads. Watch for bulged case heads once you go above the start grain loads. Good luck & have a blast.

The research I’ve done does not support this. I’ve talked to several owners that have well over 1000 rounds thru their WSSM’s without any noticeable loss in MOA.

I’m lazy and start all my loads a couple grains below max loads. My .25 WSSM shows NO sign of pressure at near max loads. My .260 on the other hand was piercing primers a couple of grains below max. It's always a good idea to start low and work up.

My .25 WSSM is a hunting rifle, it will be many years before I get close to 1000 rounds.

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 9:37 AM
How heavy is that thing? The barrel looks pretty beefy....


The complete rifle with scope weighs 10 lbs, which is right where I wanted it as a little weight makes long distance shooting easier.

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 9:38 AM
Nice rifle. As much as I hate to say this, I feel that I must: be prepared to buy a new barrel between the 1000-2000 round mark (maybe even less). All the WSSM's start to show noticeable throat erosion after just fifty rounds in a new barrel. These 'super shorts' are vicious speed demons, but all that performance comes with a hefty price to pay. Also, if you reload, be very careful and work up your loads S-L-O-W-L-Y! High pressure signs can begin to show in even medium-powered loads. Watch for bulged case heads once you go above the start grain loads. Good luck & have a blast.

This is not true. The 243 wssm has barrel life similar to a 243. The 25 wssm may have more barrel life than a 25-06 and the 223 wssm has similar and maybe slightly less barrel life than a 22-250. The wssm chamerings are not really any faster, except for the 223wssm, than their respective long chamberings.

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 9:45 AM
I just built a .25 WSSM with an Olympic Arms game stalker upper.

I love it so far, it's 4 pounds lighter than my .260 and it seems to shoot a little flatter. Ive had a couple feeding problems that I havent had time to address, Im sure its the magazine.

What modifications have been made to your lower, and magazines?

Vaderspade,

I was pursuing producing a modified lower reciever and magazines to allow a longer OAL for the longer bullets when I found out that Olympic arms was already working on the exact same thing. Olympic arms just came out with the UMAR lower reciever wich has a longer mag well and magazines, but can still accept standar magazines as well.

The pictures I took are of the upper on just a standard lower as I have not recieved my UMAR yet.

The wssm chambering in an AR are nicer for hunting because you don't have to lug around a heavy Ar10, but can achieve similar or better ballistics.

This is the first one made with a slick side, billet upper. I plan on marketing these with ammo and load development ready to go for the end user.

stormy_clothing
10-11-2011, 10:32 AM
lame - the gains of the 243 wssm over the standard winchester 243 round are less than 10% if that and when you factor in the cost of the rifle and ammo you'll shoot less with marginally better results.

The Remington r25 can be had for 1250 in 243 Winchester and hunts very well though I have not tried the 243 version just the 308

http://www.revistaarmas.com/wp-content/gallery/remington-r25-armas-323/img_0956.jpg

r3dn3ck
10-11-2011, 10:35 AM
OP: all the pics you can post showing the differences would be really dearly appreciated.

Thanks for the 'splanation too.

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 11:20 AM
lame - the gains of the 243 wssm over the standard winchester 243 round are less than 10% if that and when you factor in the cost of the rifle and ammo you'll shoot less with marginally better results.

The Remington r25 can be had for 1250 in 243 Winchester and hunts very well though I have not tried the 243 version just the 308

http://www.revistaarmas.com/wp-content/gallery/remington-r25-armas-323/img_0956.jpg

The point is not a gain in velocity but a reduction in over all rifle bulk and weight. It is so much nicer to tote around an Ar15 sized rifle than a Ar10. Anybody who has done so will agree. I can have a longer and/or heavier barrel with a shoter OAL and less or equal weight with more barrel. The 243wssm is also able to achive higher velocities in a shorter barrel over the 243.

It would be very difficult to have an Ar10 that weighs the same as a traditional hunting rifle without sacraficing barrel length and therfore cartridge performance. With the 243wssm on an ar15 platform you can have a hunting weight AR that does not sacrafice performance.

Speedpower
10-11-2011, 11:51 AM
The Remington R25 in .308 weights a little less than 10 pounds depending on what scope is installed.

I just built myself one with a DPMS LR308 18" barrel with an integral compensator and carbon fiber handguard mated to a TM lower and it only weights 8 pounds 9 ounces (w/ a 10/20 magpul mag) so with a scope installed it will be right about 10 pounds, this will be my hunting rifle

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 12:11 PM
The Remington R25 in .308 weights a little less than 10 pounds depending on what scope is installed.

I just built myself one with a DPMS LR308 18" barrel with an integral compensator and carbon fiber handguard mated to a TM lower and it only weights 8 pounds 9 ounces (w/ a 10/20 magpul mag) so with a scope installed it will be right about 10 pounds, this will be my hunting rifle

Ar10's are fine rifles, but you just made my point. A short 18" barrel will bleed velocity, granted it may not matter much in most hunting situations. You also have a light cabon fiber handgaurd. Your scoped ar10 will weigh the same as my 243wssm with a aluminum handgaurd, longer and heavy profile 22" barrel, a heavy scope, and a bi-pod. That is the advantage of the ar15 over the ar10.

Briancnelson
10-11-2011, 12:24 PM
Pretty spiffy looking. Let us know how it performs when you take it hunting, I'll be curious to see how it works in action!

+1 on some close ups, please!

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 12:26 PM
The basic remington R25's weight 8.75lbs with a light profile 20" barrel. After you add a scope you are getting close to or over 10lbs depending on what you put on it. A wssm ar15 with a 20" and a similar light weight barrel would come in around 6.5-7lbs.

SandDiegoDuner
10-11-2011, 12:38 PM
Is there something this rifle does that a 6.5 Grendel can't?

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 12:45 PM
Is there something this rifle does that a 6.5 Grendel can't?

Superior long range performance. It shoots much faster, flatter, and with less wind drift and deliveres more energy on target. For hunting, the 6.5 grendel is severely limited in range. For most hunting bullets you want a minimum of 1800fps at taget impact in order to upset the bullet and begin expansion. The 6.4 grenedl loses this ability somewhere between 400 and 600 yards depending on the load and elevation. The 243wssm can push this out to 800-over a 1000 yards with less wind drift and need to compensate for bullet drop. The 6.5 grendel/264 lbc is a fine target round, but really marginal for hunting past 200 yards due to it's very slow muzzel velocity.

supersonic
10-11-2011, 1:09 PM
The research I’ve done does not support this. I’ve talked to several owners that have well over 1000 rounds thru their WSSM’s without any noticeable loss in MOA.

I’m lazy and start all my loads a couple grains below max loads. My .25 WSSM shows NO sign of pressure at near max loads. My .260 on the other hand was piercing primers a couple of grains below max. It's always a good idea to start low and work up.

My .25 WSSM is a hunting rifle, it will be many years before I get close to 1000 rounds.

My personal experience with 2 rifles (.223WSSM & .243WSSM) and info by some of the lab guys at Hornady are what I had to go by. Your experiences appear to be different than mine, which is very much to your advantage. May I wish you the best of luck with yours. They are a LOT of fun to shoot!

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 1:12 PM
6.5grendel ballistics 123 scenar:
Input Parameters
.264 Alexander Arms 123gr Lapua Scenar

BC Bullet
Weight Muzzle
Velocity Zero
*Range* Sight
Height LOS
*Angle*
*0.547 G1* 123gr 2565 100 2.5 in -1
Altitude Pressure Temp RH* Wind
Velocity Wind
*Angle*
7000.0 *29.77 Hg.* 53.6 F 62% 8.1 190
Zero
Altitude Zero
Pressure Zero
Temp Zero
*RH* Optimum
PBR Zero
160.0 *29.95 Hg.* 73.9 F 37% 284
Bullet Trajectory
*Range*
(yards) Drop
(in) Drop
(moa) Wind.
(in) Wind.
(moa) *Veloc.*
(fps) Energy*
(ft-lbs) Time
(sec)
**25 -1.35 -5.17 -0.00 -0.02 2538 1758 0.03
**50 -0.54 -1.04 -0.02 -0.03 2506 1715 0.06
**75 -0.08 -0.10 -0.04 -0.05 2475 1673 0.09
**100 0.03 0.02 -0.07 -0.07 2444 1631 0.12
**125 -0.23 -0.18 -0.11 -0.09 2413 1590 0.15
**150 -0.86 -0.55 -0.17 -0.11 2382 1550 0.18
**175 -1.88 -1.03 -0.23 -0.12 2352 1511 0.21
**200 -3.29 -1.57 -0.30 -0.14 2322 1472 0.25
**225 -5.10 -2.17 -0.38 -0.16 2292 1435 0.28
**250 -7.33 -2.80 -0.47 -0.18 2262 1398 0.31
**275 -9.98 -3.47 -0.57 -0.20 2233 1361 0.34
**292 ↑ -11.91 -3.91 -0.64 -0.21 2214 1339 0.37
**300 -13.07 -4.16 -0.69 -0.22 2203 1326 0.38
**325 -16.61 -4.88 -0.81 -0.24 2174 1291 0.41
**350 -20.61 -5.62 -0.95 -0.26 2146 1257 0.45
**375 -25.08 -6.39 -1.09 -0.28 2117 1224 0.48
**400 -30.04 -7.17 -1.25 -0.30 2088 1191 0.52
**425 -35.50 -7.98 -1.42 -0.32 2060 1159 0.55
**450 -41.47 -8.80 -1.61 -0.34 2032 1128 0.59
**475 -47.97 -9.64 -1.80 -0.36 2004 1097 0.63
**500 -55.02 -10.51 -2.01 -0.38 1977 1067 0.67
**525 -62.62 -11.39 -2.23 -0.41 1949 1038 0.70
**550 -70.79 -12.29 -2.47 -0.43 1922 1009 0.74
**575 -79.55 -13.21 -2.71 -0.45 1895 981 0.78
**600 -88.92 -14.15 -2.98 -0.47 1869 954 0.82
**625 -98.92 -15.11 -3.25 -0.50 1842 927 0.86
**650 -109.55 -16.09 -3.54 -0.52 1816 901 0.90
**675 -120.85 -17.10 -3.85 -0.54 1790 875 0.94
**700 -132.83 -18.12 -4.17 -0.57 1765 850 0.99
**725 -145.50 -19.16 -4.50 -0.59 1739 826 1.03
**750 -158.90 -20.23 -4.85 -0.62 1714 802 1.07
**775 -173.04 -21.32 -5.22 -0.64 1689 779 1.12
**800 -187.95 -22.43 -5.60 -0.67 1665 757 1.16
**825 -203.64 -23.57 -5.99 -0.69 1640 735 1.21
**850 -220.14 -24.73 -6.41 -0.72 1616 713 1.25
**875 -237.48 -25.92 -6.84 -0.75 1593 693 1.30
**900 -255.68 -27.13 -7.29 -0.77 1569 672 1.35
**925 -274.76 -28.36 -7.75 -0.80 1546 653 1.40
**950 -294.75 -29.63 -8.24 -0.83 1523 634 1.44
**975 -315.69 -30.92 -8.74 -0.86 1501 615 1.49
**1000 -337.59 -32.24 -9.26 -0.88 1479 597 1.54

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 1:15 PM
243 wssm ballistics with 105vld:
Input Parameters
.243 Berger 105gr VLD

BC Bullet
Weight Muzzle
Velocity Zero
*Range* Sight
Height LOS
*Angle*
*0.532 G1* 105gr 3080 100 2.5 in -1
Altitude Pressure Temp RH* Wind
Velocity Wind
*Angle*
7000.0 *29.77 Hg.* 53.6 F 62% 8.1 190
Zero
Altitude Zero
Pressure Zero
Temp Zero
*RH* Optimum
PBR Zero
160.0 *29.95 Hg.* 73.9 F 37% 338
Bullet Trajectory
*Range*
(yards) Drop
(in) Drop
(moa) Wind.
(in) Wind.
(moa) *Veloc.*
(fps) Energy*
(ft-lbs) Time
(sec)
**25 -1.51 -5.78 -0.00 -0.01 3048 2166 0.02
**50 -0.76 -1.45 -0.01 -0.03 3012 2115 0.05
**75 -0.25 -0.32 -0.03 -0.04 2976 2064 0.07
**100 0.02 0.02 -0.06 -0.06 2940 2015 0.10
**125 0.03 0.02 -0.09 -0.07 2905 1967 0.13
**150 -0.21 -0.14 -0.13 -0.08 2870 1919 0.15
**175 -0.72 -0.39 -0.18 -0.10 2835 1873 0.18
**200 -1.50 -0.72 -0.24 -0.11 2800 1828 0.20
**225 -2.56 -1.09 -0.30 -0.13 2766 1783 0.23
**250 -3.90 -1.49 -0.38 -0.14 2732 1740 0.26
**275 -5.54 -1.92 -0.46 -0.16 2698 1697 0.29
**300 -7.47 -2.38 -0.55 -0.17 2664 1655 0.31
**325 -9.71 -2.85 -0.65 -0.19 2631 1614 0.34
**348 ↑ -11.94 -3.29 -0.74 -0.20 2602 1578 0.37
**350 -12.27 -3.35 -0.75 -0.21 2598 1574 0.37
**375 -15.15 -3.86 -0.87 -0.22 2565 1534 0.40
**400 -18.35 -4.38 -0.99 -0.24 2533 1495 0.43
**425 -21.90 -4.92 -1.13 -0.25 2501 1458 0.46
**450 -25.80 -5.48 -1.27 -0.27 2468 1420 0.49
**475 -30.06 -6.04 -1.43 -0.29 2437 1384 0.52
**500 -34.68 -6.62 -1.59 -0.30 2405 1348 0.55
**525 -39.68 -7.22 -1.76 -0.32 2374 1313 0.58
**550 -45.06 -7.82 -1.95 -0.34 2343 1279 0.61
**575 -50.85 -8.44 -2.14 -0.36 2312 1246 0.65
**600 -57.04 -9.08 -2.35 -0.37 2281 1213 0.68
**625 -63.65 -9.72 -2.56 -0.39 2250 1181 0.71
**650 -70.69 -10.39 -2.79 -0.41 2220 1149 0.75
**675 -78.17 -11.06 -3.03 -0.43 2190 1118 0.78
**700 -86.11 -11.75 -3.28 -0.45 2160 1088 0.81
**725 -94.51 -12.45 -3.54 -0.47 2131 1058 0.85
**750 -103.40 -13.17 -3.81 -0.49 2101 1029 0.88
**775 -112.78 -13.90 -4.10 -0.51 2072 1001 0.92
**800 -122.66 -14.64 -4.40 -0.52 2043 973 0.96
**825 -133.07 -15.40 -4.71 -0.54 2015 946 0.99
**850 -144.02 -16.18 -5.03 -0.57 1986 920 1.03
**875 -155.51 -16.97 -5.37 -0.59 1958 894 1.07
**900 -167.58 -17.78 -5.72 -0.61 1930 868 1.11
**925 -180.23 -18.61 -6.08 -0.63 1902 844 1.15
**950 -193.49 -19.45 -6.46 -0.65 1875 819 1.19
**975 -207.37 -20.31 -6.85 -0.67 1848 796 1.23
**1000 -221.88 -21.19 -7.26 -0.69 1821 773 1.27

chicoredneck
10-11-2011, 1:19 PM
My personal experience with 2 rifles (.223WSSM & .243WSSM) and info by some of the lab guys at Hornady are what I had to go by. Your experiences appear to be different than mine, which is very much to your advantage. May I wish you the best of luck with yours. They are a LOT of fun to shoot!

223 wssm can be harsh on barrels, but really not much worse than a 22-250.. The 243 wssm and 25 wssm are not in my experience and investigation. The 223wssm gave it's reputation as a barrel burner over to it's cousins, but it does not apply.

killshot44
10-11-2011, 9:41 PM
The WSM cases avoid the throat torching of other "overbore" cartridges by keeping the powder stack close to the primer and a sharper shoulder angle.

The Grendel suffers from not having enough powder capacity for heavy 6.5 projectiles. Just impossible to get em over 2,700 fps.

NorCalK9.com
10-11-2011, 9:54 PM
How heavy is that thing? The barrel looks pretty beefy....

Thats what I was thinking. I can't imagine walking with that thing for more than an hour.

Bhobbs
10-11-2011, 10:23 PM
The WSM cases avoid the throat torching of other "overbore" cartridges by keeping the powder stack close to the primer and a sharper shoulder angle.

The Grendel suffers from not having enough powder capacity for heavy 6.5 projectiles. Just impossible to get em over 2,700 fps.

The 6mm rounds based off the 6.5 G do pretty well though. It pushes the 100 grain class bullets at 2,800+.

chicoredneck
10-12-2011, 5:42 AM
As promised here are some pictures of a wssm bolt compared to a 223 bolt. The lighting was not real good, but they were the best I could do last night. As you can imagine, the barrel extension and the portion of the upper reciever that the extension fit in have been enlarged somewhat to accomodate the larger bolt and caliber.

Notice that the carrier is opened up to allow a larger bolt.
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/chicoredneck/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_5015-1.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/chicoredneck/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_6201.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/chicoredneck/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_9571.jpg

A wssm magazine
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/chicoredneck/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_7481.jpg

razorscs
10-12-2011, 8:43 AM
The key isn't staked on the wssm, is there a reason for that?

chicoredneck
10-12-2011, 9:10 AM
The key isn't staked on the wssm, is there a reason for that?

The gas key on the wssm has been torqued on and the screws sealed and locked with a very strong compound. Mike Milli, the assembler, has put together thousands of AR's and found this method to be every bit as rugged as staking, if not more so. His words, not mine, but he knows his stuff.

chicoredneck
10-14-2011, 10:02 AM
I took the rifle out last night and finished my break in. After break in, the first 10 shots were erratic and all over the place. I was beginning to wonder if the factory ammo was terrible or if my scope was busted. Then, it suddenly shot fantastic, especially considering this was factory ammo shooting hunting bullets. The yellow circled group is 6 (maybe 7) consecutive shots of factory 95gr BT. I adjusted the scope and took two more shots and hit the bulls-eye. I then tried some 100 gr power points to see how they would shoot. That is the red group. The rest of the shots were the first 10 fliers when the rifle was shooting erratically.

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/chicoredneck/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1419-1.jpg

captbilly
10-14-2011, 10:31 AM
The bottom line is that. 243 or. 243wssm, both have very short barrel life compared to. 223 or. 308. Most of the arguments about barrel life stem from the rifles being used for different purposes. I hear all the time about AR shooters claiming they have the same barrel on a rifle that has been fired 35,000 times, so when they hear a target shooter say that the barrel life of a. 223 barrel is 5000 - 8000 rounds they suggest the target shooter is just wrong. But here's the thing, nobody is saying that at 1000 rounds for the .243, or 22-250, or, .338 lapua, etc. That at 1000- 1500 rounds the gun is going to blow up, or start shooting bullets sideways. What happens is that due to throat erosion the rifle starts getting less and less accurate. Some shooters will load special ammo for their rrifle as the barrel erodes, with the bullet seated higher so that it still engages the lands quickly. Eventually the throat errosion is just too deep and it is no longer practical to load a round that will still feed properly. If you are a shooter who shoots standing or who shoots deer at no further than a couple of hundred yards, you can still get good hits with a badly eroded throat. Heck some of the AR combat type shooters probably don't care until the bullets start tumbling straight out of the barrel, which takes basically shooting until there is no more rifling.

1000+- rounds through manynof the magnum/really hot cartridges seems to be the general rule if excellent accuracy is important to you. Some barrels will obviously last longer and some even shorter, depending on metallurgy, load, rapid fire or not, and the level of accuracy demanded by the shooter.

r3dn3ck
10-14-2011, 10:50 AM
seriously thinking about one of these. thanks much. OP, pm me with any retailers you care to recommend.