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nrakid88
10-09-2011, 7:18 PM
Would you feel confident with a five-seven pistol considering...

The loads available meet the 13" FBI 10% Gel Penetration requirement and there are loads that will punch through a vest and 11.5" of Gel.

Furthermore, 9mm, 40, 45, 357, 44 etc... will all fail to penetrate a vest, although they will do better on naked flesh.

So would you feel more confident with the 9mm and up calibers and risk an encounter with a armored assailant, or would you rather have the 5.7 and compromise vest penetration with terminal effectiveness?

paul0660
10-09-2011, 7:20 PM
Put this vest on and we will both find out............

Bug Splat
10-09-2011, 7:38 PM
I don't like the 5.7 round. Seems silly to put it in a pistol and us Cali guys can't have more than 10rds but what ever floats peoples boat. I feel that the round is best suited for guns which can shoot high volumes quickly, ie, submachine guns. I'll take a 45ACP with 230gr rounds.

nrakid88
10-09-2011, 7:43 PM
I don't like the 5.7 round. Seems silly to put it in a pistol and us Cali guys can't have more than 10rds but what ever floats peoples boat. I feel that the round is best suited for guns which can shoot high volumes quickly, ie, submachine guns. I'll take a 45ACP with 230gr rounds.

45 seems silly in a gun that can't shoot high volumes either...

Pistol rounds, even the godly 45, are VERY underpowered.

Rumpled
10-09-2011, 7:43 PM
I think FN should make a subcompact 5.7. As a full size with only 10 rounds when so many more would fit is a travesty.
Sure, I would use one.

HK4113
10-09-2011, 7:49 PM
I would trust the 5.7 as much as any 9.

esartori
10-09-2011, 7:50 PM
I agree that with only 10, it seems kind of pointless. But maybe for LEOs with 'high cap mags' and its light weight, it could be a viable option.

cmaynes
10-09-2011, 7:51 PM
is FN still the only source for 5.7 ammunition? if so, that would be my biggest concern about it.

HK4113
10-09-2011, 7:53 PM
is FN still the only source for 5.7 ammunition? if so, that would be my biggest concern about it.

there are smaller loaders, but no other big ones like winchester, pmc, cci, etc. However this discussion is about the confidence in the round, not the scarcity of the ammo.

woods
10-09-2011, 7:54 PM
I carry my FiveseveN because it does the job, its light, and accuracy is great. Shot placement and familiarity is more important than specific caliber, though I'd rather have 5.7 than a 38.

nrakid88
10-09-2011, 7:54 PM
is FN still the only source for 5.7 ammunition? if so, that would be my biggest concern about it.

There is a company EA that loads for it.

I hand load so i would only buy factory till I had my brass reserves loaded up.


I started thinking of 5.7 for my girlfriend, but the more I think about it the more I want it for myself.

20 round mags would sweeten the deal if they were legal.

nrakid88
10-09-2011, 7:56 PM
I carry my FiveseveN because it does the job, its light, and accuracy is great. Shot placement and familiarity is more important than specific caliber, though I'd rather have 5.7 than a 38.

Do you have full capacity mags?

I am thinking that the ability to have faster strings of fire will help the five-seven out as well.

What bullet have you chosen? There seems to be at least 10 choices out there.

sleepr66
10-09-2011, 7:59 PM
All subjective. The reason I bought 9mm is cause its so plentiful. Come the zombies who cares when you can shoot through a vest when you cant find any 5.7 rounds.

Again all subjective, whatever peels your orange. And the whole 9mm not being able to penetrate seems a little ridiculous to me. If im going to shoot something, im going to shoot it more than once.

One of those ten rounds is bound to cause some damage!

And remember "the only use for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never let down" -some famous General, im sure a fellow calgunner will tell you who said it. So if your worried about penetration, get a rifle.

cmaynes
10-09-2011, 8:10 PM
there are smaller loaders, but no other big ones like winchester, pmc, cci, etc. However this discussion is about the confidence in the round, not the scarcity of the ammo.

as far as shooting it doesnt bring a ton to the table- and it costs more than a lot of comparable calibers. Its a choice, like 6.8 grendal-

DRAB_81
10-09-2011, 8:36 PM
Isn't the 5.7x28 round (out of FN's pistol) the ballistic equivalent of a .22 Magnum?

No thanks, I'll stick with 45, 10mm & 9mm for handguns. If I was worried about body armor, I'd grab my AK...

nrakid88
10-09-2011, 8:55 PM
Wow, I am really shocked that the poll is fifty fifty (about) right now.

Really thought I might be alone on this one...

I think I will get this as a range and HD gun for the GF... with the intent of hijacking it for myself.

DRAB_81
10-09-2011, 9:04 PM
You have to remember that the 5.7 crowd is going to step in EVERY time "5.7" is in the title of a thread. Us 10mm guys are the same way when a 10mm topic comes up. Take it with a grain of salt, just like anything else on here.

Rogue187
10-09-2011, 9:20 PM
@meathead9...Your correct about the calibers that people personally like and use..

I has used the 5.7 in the pistol and in the P90 Machine Gun..
The round serves it's purpose in close quarters and in the home.. this round is not a battle round and made to take out everything ..it will work perfect for protecting you in your home and on your person..it's made to take people out and not have to go through a wall to do it..

Cato
10-09-2011, 9:23 PM
I'd buy a 5.7 gun if someone made one that wasn't fugly.

kf6tac
10-09-2011, 9:30 PM
I'm confident enough in the round; the Five-Seven pistol just wouldn't be my first choice in a pinch because the grip isn't very comfortable for me to hold, owing to the length of the cartridge. If I had standard capacity Five-Seven mags it might be a different story, but I don't.

noob_tube
10-09-2011, 9:33 PM
I've used it and wasn't impressed. I'll stick with .40S&W or .45ACP. :)

Colt-45
10-09-2011, 10:01 PM
Would you feel confident with a five-seven pistol considering...

The loads available meet the 13" FBI 10% Gel Penetration requirement and there are loads that will punch through a vest and 11.5" of Gel.


The 5.7 rounds that penetrate through vests aren't available to civilians so I choose 9mm and up. There's very few samples that make it to civilian market and they usually run at $500 box of 50. If you get lucky $8 bucks a round.

And just because a round doesn't penetrate through a vest doesn't mean it wont hurt or break ribs. If you shoot well enough your opponent will be in enough pain for you to make a head shot.

nrakid88
10-09-2011, 10:19 PM
The 5.7 rounds that penetrate through vests aren't available to civilians so I choose 9mm and up. There's very few samples that made it to market and they usually run at $500 box of 50.

And just because a round doesn't penetrate through a vest doesn't mean it wont hurt or break ribs. If you shoot well enough your opponent will be in enough pain for you to make a head shot.

Oh Really?

http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/item/7385614/7701253.htm


http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/item/7385614/7701253.htm

Does your *** care to say anything else?

HK4113
10-09-2011, 10:27 PM
Isn't the 5.7x28 round (out of FN's pistol) the ballistic equivalent of a .22 Magnum?
.

no.

DRAB_81
10-09-2011, 10:36 PM
no.

Read this completely, and then explain your answer...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7x28_cop_killer.htm

Grumpyoldretiredcop
10-09-2011, 10:43 PM
I wouldn't make the 5.7 my primary choice for HD. My concern would be overpenetration, especially at close range, rather than how effective a round it is.

HK4113
10-09-2011, 10:54 PM
Read this completely, and then explain your answer...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7x28_cop_killer.htm

.22 mag out of a keltec pmr is going 1230ft/s
5.7 SS195LF out of the handgun is going a little over 2000ft/s

Glock_fanboy
10-09-2011, 10:56 PM
I think FN should make a subcompact 5.7. As a full size with only 10 rounds when so many more would fit is a travesty.
Sure, I would use one.

A compact 5.7 would definitely be sick! The ten round limit turns me away from it though. I would trust it if it was what I had, but I would rather have a 9mm glock with my preban mags.

Colt-45
10-09-2011, 11:02 PM
Oh Really?
Does your *** care to say anything else?

That **** is not SS190 black tip smart ***.:rolleyes::facepalm:

HK4113
10-09-2011, 11:04 PM
That **** is not SS190 black tip smart ***.:rolleyes::facepalm:

Black tip is not the only penetrating ammo in existence. It is however the only one that fnh makes.

NSR500
10-09-2011, 11:53 PM
I'd run the 5.7

Lugiahua
10-10-2011, 12:09 AM
I can't think any reason a person who can afford a body armor would raid my house...

RRichie09
10-10-2011, 12:42 AM
I'm not worry about having to defend myself against someone with body armour. Pretty low on the reality scale, not at the bottom, but still pretty low.

kemikalembalance
10-10-2011, 12:47 AM
i run a five-seven and a P90. they are fun and the five-seven has no recoil. id rather have a 5.7 or a .22 on a pig hunt. but thats off subject. i voted 5.7, but now that i think about it, meth is a big problem eveywhere, and since we are the capitol of making it... ide go back to my Kimber .45. they might not feel it, but itll knock down.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 12:49 AM
I can't think any reason a person who can afford a body armor would raid my house...

I can't think any reason New York Police would violently assault peacefull protestors.

G38xOC
10-10-2011, 12:52 AM
I'd rock the OD FN57 if it wasnt so expensive

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 12:53 AM
I wouldn't make the 5.7 my primary choice for HD. My concern would be overpenetration, especially at close range, rather than how effective a round it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpnnh-0YEbk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BDpPlL6roI&feature=related

Overpenetration can be limited by ammunition selection.

For CCW I would go for the lesser penetrating round,

For HD I would go for the more penetrating round (as I have a good shoot zone, and many walls, glass, and cinder blocks in between me and my neighbors)

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 12:53 AM
I'd rock the OD FN57 if it wasnt so expensive

I would think about it if it wasn't so heavy.

For the weight I would rather do 5.56x45

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 12:54 AM
ide go back to my Kimber .45. they might not feel it, but itll knock down.

I wouldn't count on knock down unless if I was using a .308 full auto with 110 grain V-max.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 12:56 AM
I'm not worry about having to defend myself against someone with body armour. Pretty low on the reality scale, not at the bottom, but still pretty low.

Good point, but on the five seven forum I read one account of a CCW dude who pulled his gun on someone who was going execution style on a crowd, the guy fires a few .45 into the perp's center mass, they are stopped by his vest, and the perp kills the CCW carrier.

Had that CCW carrier had a five seven, he'd have a chance at living.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 12:59 AM
And just because a round doesn't penetrate through a vest doesn't mean it wont hurt or break ribs. If you shoot well enough your opponent will be in enough pain for you to make a head shot.

There are accounts on the military channel of WWII vets who were manning machine guns and were pried from them by there buddies because they had 7 or more bullet holes in there arms, core, legs, etc... yet they were SO jacked up from the conflict that they didn't know they were hit.

RRichie09
10-10-2011, 1:00 AM
Good point, but on the five seven forum I read one account of a CCW dude who pulled his gun on someone who was going execution style on a crowd, the guy fires a few .45 into the perp's center mass, they are stopped by his vest, and the perp kills the CCW carrier.

Had that CCW carrier had a five seven, he'd have a chance at living.


So there was a mass shooting incident where a LTC holder was present and shot the bad guy and was killed in the process?

How have we not heard of this incident? Do you have more information about this event?

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 1:02 AM
So there was a mass shooting incident where a LTC holder was present and shot the bad guy and was killed in the process?

How have we not heard of this incident? Do you have more information about this event?

Let me dig for it. Pretty sure it was on the five seven forums, or a thread here about the five seven if you want to help.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 1:05 AM
found it


-- Penetration. The 5.7x28mm fired from the Five-seveN (with proper ammunition) will penetrate virtually any type of body armor in common use, while the .45 ACP will not penetrate even the weakest body armor types. [See some of the recent shootings involving body armor, such as the Binghamton shooting rampage and the Tyler, Texas courthouse shootout. In the former, a man wearing body armor murdered 13 people before killing himself. In the latter, a man wearing body armor opened fire outside a courthouse, killing and wounding several people; the attacker was shot in the chest and back repeatedly by Mark Wilson with his .45 ACP CCW pistol, but the rounds had no effect on the attacker's body armor and Wilson was killed as a result.]


http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10276

I think its like the 13th or so post

RRichie09
10-10-2011, 1:21 AM
From wiki: "A local resident, Mark Allen Wilson, was in his downtown loft when he heard the shooting begin. He looked out his window and saw Arroyo at the courthouse steps engaged in a shootout with law enforcement. Wilson, who held a Texas concealed handgun permit immediately armed himself with his Colt .45 caliber pistol, and left his residence to intervene in the gun battle."

Wow, first time hearing about it... not surprising consider how the media operates. Sounds like he should've went for a head shot (which is what finally subdued the madman) since the madman had no idea Mr. Wilson was behind him. Either way Mr. Wilson was a brave man to stand up to this crazy and may him RIP.

The chances of someone breaking into your house with body armour is really low. Since we dont' have a LTC, being armed in public while a madman with body armour goes on a rampage is really low and if you are about to partake in a protest in NY it is something you can prepare for or avoid.

If you want a 5.7 then get one, but using the mass murder with body armour senario as the logic behind getting a 5.7 is silly.

grammaton76
10-10-2011, 1:42 AM
Armor matters much less when your primary HD weapon is a rifle.

Do worry about the guys with rifle plates, though. Good news is, home invader types are far less likely to have those than they are a regular vest.

elSquid
10-10-2011, 1:49 AM
I'd buy a 5.7 gun if someone made one that wasn't fugly.

I'd buy one if the price was comparable to common 9mm polymer pistols...and if ball ammo was the same price as 9mm ball. Just for giggles.

But an FN with a 20 round mag isn't really that much of an improvement over a 17 shot Glock 17 to warrant the price differential... and a 10-shot 5.7? : shrug :

-- Michael

Target19
10-10-2011, 2:08 AM
Rather have a shotgun or rifle against and armored assailant.
My handgun is my back up to those.
If they are gonna go through the trouble to armor up.
You can bet that you will have little chance to survive...because I doubt they will be unarmed.
Think about S.W.A.T. ,they make plans to invade a house.
They don't just go in recklessly.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 5:44 AM
.22 mag out of a keltec pmr is going 1230ft/s
5.7 SS195LF out of the handgun is going a little over 2000ft/s

I said 22 magnum, not 22 magnum out of a handgun.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7x28_cop_killer.htm
.

Quiet
10-10-2011, 6:29 AM
I found the grip on the FN Five-seveN to be kinda bulky. It felt too long (front to back) and ungainly for me to effectively manipulate.
So, I just stick to my .45 calibered pistols.

skyscraper
10-10-2011, 7:05 AM
I said 22 magnum, not 22 magnum out of a handgun.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7x28_cop_killer.htm
.

Then isn't it really a bad comparison? Because the five seven is a handgun.

I've got a five seven, kimber 10mm, and soon to be kel-tec pf9 on my permit. Figure I covered all angles.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 7:20 AM
Then isn't it really a bad comparison? Because the five seven is a handgun.

No, because ballistics is ballistics, and that was my argument. Regardless of the weapon, I don't feel that the 22WMR is suitable for anything other than Absolute Last Resort Self Defense, so a 5.7 isn't any better as far as ballistics go. If my 45 was the ballistic equivalent of a 22WMR Rifle, I wouldn't use it either. And so what if it can pierce body armor, it's still essentially a 22 Magnum.

To the OP, reading this entire thread it looks like you already had your mind made up before you posted it. Just go buy the damn thing already...
.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 7:30 AM
Copied and pasted from the Chuck Hawks link:

As a U.S. Government intelligence manager, I receive a significant number of "Officer Safety" alerts generated by a wide variety of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies. One alert that regularly rears its ugly head focuses on the alleged "cop killer" 5.7x28mm round fired by the Five-seveN pistol manufactured by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal (FNH) of Belgium. Given my innate curiosity, I decided to research this super duper cop-killing round and try to put it into perspective.

This is a .224 caliber rimless, bottlenecked, boxer primed, centerfire cartridge designed for use in semi-automatic arms. (Primarily pistols and sub-machineguns.) The cartridge overall length is 1.594 inches and it can be loaded to a maximum pressure of 50,040 psi.

Published reports indicate that as factory loaded the 5.7x28mm drives a 32 grain bullet, load #SS190-AP (armor piercing), at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2350 fps with 390 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy (ME). The 28 grain spitzer bullet, load #SS195LF-JHP, has a muzzle velocity of 2350 fps and muzzle energy of 290 ft. lbs. The 40 grain Hornady V-Max bullet, load #SS197SR, claims a muzzle velocity of 1950 fps with 340 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. Readers old enough to remember the obsolete .22 Remington Jet small game and varmint cartridge of 1960--40 grain bullet at about 2000 fps from a S&W Model 53 revolver--will be startled to hear that the slightly less powerful 5.7x28mm is a "cop-killer" round.

It is important to remember that the 5.7x28mm velocity and energy figures were derived from a 10.35 inch (sub-machinegun length) test barrel and that the Five-seveN pistol barrel actually measures 4.82 inches in length. Realistically, we can anticipate a substantial velocity loss of about 20% when the 5.7x28mm cartridge is fired from a pistol. This would mean an actual MV of approximately 1560 fps and ME of 216 ft. lbs. for the 5.7x28mm 40 grain bullet when fired from a handgun. Because it starts a heavier bullet at lower velocity, which maximizes energy and minimizes velocity loss, this should be the most effective load for a 5.7x28mm pistol.

A comparison of the performance of the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire (WMR), introduced in 1959, and the 5.7x28mm is interesting. The .22 WMR shares the same bullet diameter (.224") as the 5.7x28mm cartridge and their muzzle and energy figures are actually rather similar.

Winchester's Supreme .22 WMR loaded with a 34 grain jacketed hollow point bullet has a muzzle velocity of 2120 fps and muzzle energy of 339 ft. lbs. from a (presumably 24") rifle barrel and a muzzle velocity of 1690 fps with 216 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy from a 6.5" pistol barrel. (That is just a hair over the 20% velocity loss that we postulated for the 5.7x28mm.)

Winchester's Super-X .22 WMR 40 grain jacketed hollow point (JHP) and full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets--Winchester offers both--have a MV of 1910 fps with ME of 324 ft. lbs. from a rifle barrel. Fired from a 6.5" pistol barrel the same loads register 1480 fps MV and 195 ft. lbs. ME. Note that rifle ballistics of this load are nearly identical to the 40 grain 5.7x28mm factory load as fired from a sub-machinegun length barrel and from a pistol barrel the 5.7x28mm is only a puny 21 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy ahead of the .22 WMR. I have never heard that semi-automatic .22 WMR squirrel and jackrabbit rifles were considered a particular threat to police, nor have I ever heard the .22 WMR described as a "cop killer" handgun round. Actually, the .22 WMR is considered a "mouse gun" caliber by most handgun authorities.

Another interesting comparison is with the 9x19mm (9mm Luger) cartridge. The 9x19 is the official NATO pistol and sub-machinegun cartridge and is widely used by police as well as by at least some real life criminals. Using Winchester published ballistics for comparison, we find that the popular Super-X 115 grain Silvertip JHP load has a MV of 1225 fps and ME of 383 ft. lbs. from a 4" pistol barrel. The U.S. military load for the 9x19mm drives a 124 grain bullet at a MV of 1299 fps and ME of 465 ft. lbs. from the Beretta M9 service pistol.

These numbers indicate that the common 9x19mm is a considerably more powerful cartridge than the 5.7x28mm when fired from pistol length barrels. This will surprise no one familiar with firearms or who has a passing familiarity with external ballistics. In reality, because the 9x19 fires a heavier bullet with far greater cross-sectional area, it will create a much larger wound cavity and prove far deadlier than this simple comparison of "paper" ballistics would indicate.

The 5.7x28mm caused quite a stir a few years back with the assertion that its AP load could penetrate at least some Kevlar helmets and body armor. (So, of course, will most other AP rifle and handgun rounds.) This may or may not be true, but the fact is that sales of armor piercing ammo are restricted to law enforcement and the military. This alone makes the 5.7x28mm cop killing round nothing more than an urban legend, leaving the practical use of the 5.7x28mm for target shooting, plinking and short range varmint hunting, much like the .22 WMR.

Frankly, I know of few individuals who would be willing to spend more than $900.00 for the FN Five-seveN pistol and then shell out more than $20 for a 50 round box of ammunition. (.22 WMR ammo commonly sells for $7-$8 for a 50 round box.) I imagine that the Five-seveN probably also fails to spark much interest with criminals, as these pistols are rare and thus almost impossible to acquire except from legitimate, FFL dealers. Typically, the criminal element usually relies on the availability of larger (9x19mm, for instance), more effective calibers that can be easily acquired in the stolen gun market.

This leaves us with the obvious conclusion that the 5.7x28mm cartridge has little advantage over the .22 WMR in terms of killing power and serious disadvantages in terms of the price and availability of both firearms and ammunition. Without doubt, being shot with either can have deadly results, but there are much greater threats and more important things with which to be concerned. The top "man stopping" handgun cartridge remains the .357 Magnum, and it has been around since 1934.

skyscraper
10-10-2011, 7:34 AM
No, because ballistics is ballistics, and that was my argument. Regardless of the weapon, I don't feel that the 22WMR is suitable for anything other than Absolute Last Resort Self Defense, so a 5.7 isn't any better as far as ballistics go. If my 45 was the ballistic equivalent of a 22WMR Rifle, I wouldn't use it either. And so what if it can pierce body armor, it's still essentially a 22 Magnum.

To the OP, reading this entire thread it looks like you already had your mind made up before you posted it. Just go buy the damn thing already...
.

So did you, right? You keep posting the same opinion paper.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 7:43 AM
So did you, right? You keep posting the same opinion paper.

I keep posting it because of arguments like yours. Apparently you didn't read it, so I figured I'd do you a favor. I don't think one man's opinion is the end-all-be-all of this, but this guy makes a very strong argument.

And yes, I came to the conclusion that the FN FiveSeven isn't a good choice for self defense a long time ago. I'm sure it's fun to shoot, and extremely accurate, but that's about it for me.

Instead of arguing with me about semantics, post a valid argument to the article. Enlighten me as to why my opinion is wrong. I'll tip my hat if you can successfully do that, but until then my mind is made up.

HK4113
10-10-2011, 7:44 AM
I said 22 magnum, not 22 magnum out of a handgun.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7x28_cop_killer.htm
.

First of all that is a completely valid comparison because they are both handguns with around the same barrel length. However if you want rifle stats

5.7 out of a ps90 can go 3340 ft/s
22 mag out of a rifle 2100 ft/s.

Same outcome as handgun.

HK4113
10-10-2011, 7:46 AM
I keep posting it because of arguments like yours. Apparently you didn't read it, so I figured I'd do you a favor. I don't think one man's opinion is the end-all-be-all of this, but this guy makes a very strong argument.

And yes, I came to the conclusion that the FN FiveSeven isn't a good choice for self defense a long time ago. I'm sure it's fun to shoot, and extremely accurate, but that's about it for me.

Instead of arguing with me about semantics, post a valid argument to the article. Enlighten me as to why my opinion is wrong. I'll tip my hat if you can successfully do that, but until then my mind is made up.

5.7 is to a 9mm as .223 is to a .308. So I am guessing you don't shoot .223 because its too small as well right?

ZombieTactics
10-10-2011, 7:48 AM
This is one of those cases where you have to analyze things in context. The 5.7x28mm round was designed for use in PDW type guns for personal protection details. Traditional MP5 type guns weren't doing the job against body armor, and some kind of solution was called for. The P90 with the associated round fits the bill. The Five-Seven pistol seems like an afterthought, as it really doesn't not offer AP capability even with the SS190-AP rounds.

This has to be viewed in light of the fact that AP rounds are possible for 9mm and .40S&W chamberings, both of which offer superior terminal ballistics compared to the 5.7x28mm. These designs are not available commercially, so it's something of a moot point, other than to note that it wasn't necessary to invent a whole new cartridge to solve the problem.

The Five-Seven pistol itself feels a bit odd in the hands, but is an excellent shooter. The thing is a freekin' laser out to 100 yards, and barely recoils to the point where it's a non-issue.

As a value proposition, I think most people would be better served by buying a good 9mm handgun (for instance ... not an expression of caliber preference) and some training from a serious school.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 7:52 AM
5.7 is to a 9mm as .223 is to a .308. So I am guessing you don't shoot .223 because its too small as well right?

As a matter of fact yes, which is why I sold my AR15's and bought an AK & built an AR10. Also, your analogy just further justifies my opinion.

billybob_jcv
10-10-2011, 7:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpnnh-0YEbk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BDpPlL6roI&feature=related

Overpenetration can be limited by ammunition selection.

For CCW I would go for the lesser penetrating round,

For HD I would go for the more penetrating round (as I have a good shoot zone, and many walls, glass, and cinder blocks in between me and my neighbors)

In that first video of the gel tests, it looks like the bullet is tumbling after impact - is that a good thing? That's a serious question - I really don't know anything about bullet expansion, wound channels, etc. Did it expand or just tumble?

!@#$
10-10-2011, 8:00 AM
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

HK4113
10-10-2011, 8:04 AM
As a matter of fact yes, which is why I sold my AR15's and bought an AK & built an AR10. Also, your analogy just further justifies my opinion.

But it still is more powerful than a .22 mag.

Lead Waster
10-10-2011, 8:08 AM
Gsh-18 anyone??

cmaynes
10-10-2011, 8:18 AM
Good point, but on the five seven forum I read one account of a CCW dude who pulled his gun on someone who was going execution style on a crowd, the guy fires a few .45 into the perp's center mass, they are stopped by his vest, and the perp kills the CCW carrier.

Had that CCW carrier had a five seven, he'd have a chance at living.

if the bad guy was on meth it might not have mattered, even with right rounds.

zfields
10-10-2011, 8:26 AM
Gsh-18 anyone??

Yes please. 9mm running a +p+ AP loading.

21SF
10-10-2011, 8:46 AM
Arent armor piercing pistol rounds illegal in cali anyway?

guns_and_labs
10-10-2011, 9:00 AM
Those that have actually done studies with the 5.7x28 have come to different conclusions than Mr. Hawks.

Two issues that I believe Mr. Hawks got wrong:

1. In the field, it's more than just energy, it's also bullet design. He makes a joke that the .22Magnum is not perceived as a danger, but, in his gedankenspiel, he loads it with LRN or FMJ - neither of which have particularly good terminal ballistics.

2. It doesn't have to be a designated AP round to be able to penetrate a vest. There are quite few publicly available loads that can and have penetrated vests.

One issue that he doesn't even cover is field performance on animal tests. With proper shot placement, the 5.7x28 will put down animals as well or better than a 9mm. It's up to the user to decide if the higher capacity and lower recoil will result in better shot placement. For some, yes, for others, they could get the same shot placement with a .44Magnum - which has better energy numbers than either the 5.7x28 or a 9mm.

To each his own, YMMV, etc. ...

Lead Waster
10-10-2011, 9:25 AM
Arent armor piercing pistol rounds illegal in cali anyway?

Yeah well that's the catch 22 of Gun Laws...bad guys don't care what's illegal or not otherwise they wouldn't be bad guys!

I was just pointing out the Gsh-18 because ... it's neat and more obscure than the 5.7x28mm

skyscraper
10-10-2011, 9:33 AM
I keep posting it because of arguments like yours. Apparently you didn't read it, so I figured I'd do you a favor. I don't think one man's opinion is the end-all-be-all of this, but this guy makes a very strong argument.

And yes, I came to the conclusion that the FN FiveSeven isn't a good choice for self defense a long time ago. I'm sure it's fun to shoot, and extremely accurate, but that's about it for me.

Instead of arguing with me about semantics, post a valid argument to the article. Enlighten me as to why my opinion is wrong. I'll tip my hat if you can successfully do that, but until then my mind is made up.
Exactly.

That article is an opinion paper, where's the studies/proof? Instead of hating a caliber and wasting your time arguing with people who like it, just dont buy one. Maybe it is or isnt the most effective PD caliber, but it will work. Shot placement is the real winner of all caliber arguments.
It's like harry said on dumb and dumber: "what if he shot me in the face?"

Lead Waster
10-10-2011, 9:34 AM
Speaking of vests, etc, etc...

Does anyone remember "Leave it to Beaver?" The character of Eddie Haskell, the obsequious friend of Wally, was played by an actor named Ken Osmond

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Osmond

I saw an episode of "Top Cops" featuring him, as he became a cop after his acting career. During a foot chase, he was shot 3 time, twice in his vest, and one lucky richochet of his belt buckle. In the interview on Top Cops, he said after the shots to the chest, he just fell to the ground with all the air knocked out of him, he couldn't move AT ALL. Completely immobilized and at the gunman's mercy. His partner ran around the corner and saved his life (the gunman took off when the other officer showed up).

So yeah, even if you don't penetrate the vest, chances are good you will stop the perp with some solid hits (hopefully!) This is actually the best scenario as you have basically incapacitated him and you can tie him up intil the cops show up and you haven't killed anyone. Also anything that claims to penetrate armor will penetrate walls and therefore penetrate your neighbour.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 9:59 AM
Exactly.

That article is an opinion paper, where's the studies/proof? Instead of hating a caliber and wasting your time arguing with people who like it, just dont buy one. Maybe it is or isnt the most effective PD caliber, but it will work. Shot placement is the real winner of all caliber arguments.
It's like harry said on dumb and dumber: "what if he shot me in the face?"

Go ahead and keep dancing around it, you have done absolutely nothing to negate my argument. My initial comment was about the 5.7x28 being about the same as a .22WMR IN BALLISTICS. It just kind of spiraled down from there. A .22lr out of a NAA mini revolver will also "work", but I'd still take a 9mm if given a choice. Thanks for the epiphany about Shot Placement being the final factor, I hadn't considered that...

I have never had any interest in this pistol, so I won't buy one. The OP asked for people's opinion about the FN FiveSeven, so I gave mine. If you can't handle it, take a walk.

skyscraper
10-10-2011, 10:54 AM
You seem pretty angry about this, don't know why. Chill out, at least we can agree on shot placement. Cheers.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 11:04 AM
You seem pretty angry about this, don't know why. Chill out, at least we can agree on shot placement. Cheers.

I get a little carried away sometimes, sorry about that. This really doesn't matter to me, so I don't know why I got so nutted up about it. Im back to normal now.

Lugiahua
10-10-2011, 11:40 AM
BTW, why not just aim at the unprotected groin area? only people wear groin protection around are military or SWAT.

never heard a criminal wearing full size tactical armor before.
If they do, you are generally screwed already since they probably also wear hard plate in the armors.

billybob_jcv
10-10-2011, 11:42 AM
The 22 WMR & 5.7x28 discussion seems to have previously been done at this link. I didn't read all the comments, I don't have a dog in this hunt and I'm really not that interested - but FYI:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/

Haplo
10-10-2011, 1:29 PM
I would be fine with a 5.7 for self defense (non armor piercing). If the attacker has the foresight to be wearing armor then you're pretty farked because he's probably well prepared in other ways too, in which case I'd try to get to my AR15 the best I can.

HK4113
10-10-2011, 1:33 PM
Go ahead and keep dancing around it, you have done absolutely nothing to negate my argument. My initial comment was about the 5.7x28 being about the same as a .22WMR IN BALLISTICS. It just kind of spiraled down from there. A .22lr out of a NAA mini revolver will also "work", but I'd still take a 9mm if given a choice. Thanks for the epiphany about Shot Placement being the final factor, I hadn't considered that...

I have never had any interest in this pistol, so I won't buy one. The OP asked for people's opinion about the FN FiveSeven, so I gave mine. If you can't handle it, take a walk.

Well I already proved you wrong about the ballistics, so debate over. 5.7 is about 1000ft/s faster regardless of handgun or rifle.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 1:50 PM
Well I already proved you wrong about the ballistics, so debate over. 5.7 is about 1000ft/s faster regardless of handgun or rifle.

Dude, seriously? Go back and read everything I've posted in this thread, and yours too. All you have added were childish comments, with no substance or explanation. You can have the last word if you like, my work is done here.

And no, there isn't a 5.7x28 round (shot out of the FN FiveSeven) that's 1000fps faster than a .22WMR out of a rifle.

billybob_jcv
10-10-2011, 1:53 PM
I would be fine with a 5.7 for self defense (non armor piercing). If the attacker has the foresight to be wearing armor then you're pretty farked because he's probably well prepared in other ways too, in which case I'd try to get to my AR15 the best I can.

If I was a cynical CGer, I might think that someone worried about going up against body armor might be on the wrong side of the law. I suspect a goblin has a much higher probability of shooting against armor than the guy wearing the white hat. :)

HK4113
10-10-2011, 1:57 PM
Dude, seriously? Go back and read everything I've posted in this thread, and yours too. All you have added were childish comments, with no substance or explanation. You can have the last word if you like, my work is done here.

And no, there isn't a 5.7x28 round (shot out of the FN FiveSeven) that's 1000fps faster than a .22WMR out of a rifle.

Ill take the last word, yes there is and all you have added is reposting the same article over and over and over and over..... find some new material.

I challenge you to show me ballistic results for .22 mag that allow for 2600fps and 405 ft-lbs out of a handgun with a 4 inch barrel, or 3340fps or 666ft-lbs out of a rifle

If you can't then I just won this argument bottom line.

http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/item/7385614/7813551.htm

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 2:27 PM
Ill take the last word, yes there is and all you have added is reposting the same article over and over and over and over..... find some new material.

I challenge you to show me ballistic results for .22 mag that allow for 2600fps and 405 ft-lbs out of a handgun with a 4 inch barrel, or 3340fps or 666ft-lbs out of a rifle

If you can't then I just won this argument bottom line.

http://www.eliteammunition.net/catalog/item/7385614/7813551.htm

EA's 28gr 5.7 round claims 2600fps out of the FN FiveSeven.
CCI, Hornady & Federal all have a 30gr round that goes 2200fps out of a rifle.

EA's 40gr 5.7 round claims 2092fps out of the FN FiveSeven.
RWS's 40gr JHP goes 2020fps out of a Rifle.

Yes, EA shows that their 5.7x28 rounds are slightly faster on the box, but neither round is even close to 1000fps faster as you claimed. Has anyone actually chrono'd these rounds from a pistol?

Double Tap's box shows their 10mm 200gr WFNGC @ 1300fps out of a 4.6" barrel. I shot them over my chrono on a few separate occasions, and they were over 200fps short of what DT advertised. I'm not saying EA is the same, I'm just curious, and hadn't thought about this until now.

Regardless of velocity, would you really rather bring 28gr rounds to a gunfight with a bunch of body armored zombies? I'm not advocating the use of the .22WMR during this imaginary gun fight either, just creating a comparison.

Lead Waster
10-10-2011, 2:34 PM
Honestly, I can't see anyone invading my home with body armor. I have nothing of value that would warrant this type of invasion. I keep my Faberge Eggs in a museum.

If anyone is invading my home, it's a bunch of hoodlum teenagers, not armored pcp-jacked invaders.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 2:40 PM
wow, this thread turned into a pissing match right quick.

I have seen on the EA sight that the bullets from a fiveseven will penetrate a level 2 vest... but I wonder how they would fair against a 3-a. I am guessing it would be much less impressive.

No, I am not some goblin that is planning a shoot out with LEO's. I am a law abiding, red blooded american. I love this country, I know it's history, and I also know that Washington HAD to shoot the red coats for his freedom. Then Washington and his friends secured our rights to shoot future red coats with the second ammendment.

The direction this country is heading, with the rich controlling the government, makes me think that jack booted government oppressive thugs trolling door to door, while unlikely, is a possibility.

Really, I am just looking evidence as to whether this gun is a waste of money (imo) or not. I try to justify my guns, no matter how rediculous the justification is. That way I keep them.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 2:53 PM
Sorry about the pissing match, it's partially my fault.

And HK, I never said it was an apples to apples (pistol to pistol) comparison. I simply made a comment about how the even the HOTTEST current ammo out of the FN FiveSeven Pistol, is very close to the .22WMR out of a rifle. My intent was to say that I'd rather have a 9mm handgun, than a pistol that shoots the equivalent of a .22WMR. If you had taken my advice, and actually read my posts, you'd understand that. We'd probably be arguing about something else, but atleast we'd have this part straight.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 2:54 PM
Sorry about the pissing match, it's partially my fault.

And HK, I never said it was an apples to apples (pistol to pistol) comparison. I simply made a comment about how the even the HOTTEST current ammo out of the FN FiveSeven Pistol, is very close to the .22WMR out of a rifle. My intent was to say that I'd rather have a 9mm handgun, than a pistol that shoots the equivalent of a .22WMR. If you had taken my advice, and actually read my posts, you'd understand that. We'd probably be arguing about something else, but atleast we'd have this part straight.

I got what you were saying, but I think its dumb to compare a rifle to a pistol.

billybob_jcv
10-10-2011, 3:01 PM
I keep getting this image in my mind of zombies haphazardly wearing armor over one arm, over their head, around one leg, etc and shuffling along....

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Zombie-8.jpg

zfields
10-10-2011, 3:05 PM
I keep getting this image in my mind of zombies haphazardly wearing armor over one arm, over their head, around one leg, etc and shuffling along....

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Zombie-8.jpg

Really? I keep getting this image in my head.


http://www.baileydigitalimages.com/shop/images/1438-645.jpg

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvByt_dd_Kg

Won't take a plate, no suprise.

This link, http://www.jeepgunner.com/fnbatest.htm, is suprising though. Even from the PS90, and when the level 3a vest being fired at wasn't supported by ballistic clay (which is required for the maximum strength from the kevlar vest, also to measure how much blunt trauma is caused) most of the rounds failed to penetrate... So out of the FiveseveN, none would penetrate.

Deadon
10-10-2011, 3:06 PM
Im a 5.7 fan. Shoots straight, no recoil, I can get it for about 20.00 a box on sale, I also reload it.
If something ever happens a 1000 rounds is pretty light to carry. If anything ever did happen then I guess if I owned 30 and 50 round mags it would be a big deal.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 3:08 PM
I got what you were saying, but I think its dumb to compare a rifle to a pistol.

That was directed at HK4113, sorry for the confusion. Typically I'd agree that a pistol vs rifle comparison is stupid, but I think it's useful in this case. In this conversation, Grain for Grain, FPS to FPS, the 5.7's ballistics are about the same as a .22 WMR rifle. I compared them because I would never choose to use either in a theoretical gunfight like the one you described.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:08 PM
I guess at this point... My glock 17 with HOT rounds would do a level 2 vest as well as the FiveseveN, and throwing those rounds in my future AR pistol would give the P90 a run for the money.

So, I will find a range and try out the pistol with my girlfriend, if we like it, it'll join the "to get" list, if not, then at least I will have had fun for a night.

RRichie09
10-10-2011, 3:10 PM
...I try to justify my guns, no matter how rediculous the justification is...

Yeah I noticed. Do you need others to confirm your justification? What's wrong with, I like this gun, I'll keep it?

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:13 PM
I really wanted the 5.7x28 to replace my 7.62x25 obsession... no beans... they seem to be about equal in performance, while being totally off in price... why don't they make new 7.62x25 pistols?

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:14 PM
Yeah I noticed. Do you need others to confirm your justification? What's wrong with, I like this gun, I'll keep it?

I like it, for now...

Next week... not so much.

If I have a reason for owning the gun, I hang on to it for a LONG time.

If I just buy it on a whim, its likely to be gone next year.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:17 PM
When I ask you guys to confirm my justifications, it helps raise issues that I had not thought of on my own, and would discover at a later date.

By raking all my ideas over the coals with you guys, it helps me avoid buyers remorse in the future... So while I don't need others to confirm my justifications, the process of debating helps cement my decisions at best, and at worst I am more educated in my confusion.

RRichie09
10-10-2011, 3:18 PM
I like it, for now...

Next week... not so much.

If I have a reason for owning the gun, I hang on to it for a LONG time.

If I just buy it on a whim, its likely to be gone next year.


Well you deffinately need something to defeat body armour if someone with a vest breaks into your house... but I'm guessing the 9, 40, and 45 have better terminal balistics if the bad guy isn't wearing body armour (just a guess). How will you know if the bad guy is wearing a vest? Wouldn't you want something that would be more effective 99.999% of the time?

I am totally guessing about 5.7 performance with no vest because I don't really want to learn about 5.7 rounds as I have no interest. Please correct me if I am wrong.



the process of debating helps cement my decisions at best, and at worst I am more educated in my confusion.

That makes a lot of sense actually but maybe you should be more conductive to discussion when someone else disagrees. You sound like you've made you mind up already and defending your choice.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:27 PM
I am totally guessing about 5.7 performance with no vest because I don't really want to learn about 5.7 rounds as I have no interest. Please correct me if I am wrong.


With handgun rounds, which are all underpowered, it is about two things, picking a round that will penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs, and shot placement so that you can put the bullet where it counts. Pistol bullets only hurt exactly what they go through, unlike rifle bullets which destroy the tissue around the track they travel. So to me, I trust my 9mm about as much as I would a .22 (a bit more though, but not much)



That makes a lot of sense actually but maybe you should be more conductive to discussion when someone else disagrees. You sound like you've made you mind up already and defending your choice.

Thats just one of my many character flaws. I take something and run with it. Luckily Jpach is the same, and loves playing devils advocate, so we usually team up whenever one of us is about to buy a gun, and fight to the death over who is right.

zfields
10-10-2011, 3:32 PM
I really wanted the 5.7x28 to replace my 7.62x25 obsession... no beans... they seem to be about equal in performance, while being totally off in price... why don't they make new 7.62x25 pistols?

357 sig?

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 3:32 PM
I guess at this point... My glock 17 with HOT rounds would do a level 2 vest as well as the FiveseveN, and throwing those rounds in my future AR pistol would give the P90 a run for the money.

So, I will find a range and try out the pistol with my girlfriend, if we like it, it'll join the "to get" list, if not, then at least I will have had fun for a night.

Or you could build a G20LS like mine and shoot 9x25 Dillon. Reloading is a must though. Here's some of my own personal 9x25 Dillon handload performance:

90gr XTP @ 2100fps, 881 ft/lbs
115gr XTP @ 1900fps, 922 ft/lbs
124gr XTP @ 1800fps, 892 ft/lbs

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rabara9/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_6404.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rabara9/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4850.jpg

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:39 PM
Or you could build a G20LS like mine and shoot 9x25 Dillon. Reloading is a must though. Here's some of my own personal 9x25 Dillon handload performance:

90gr XTP @ 2100fps, 881 ft/lbs
115gr XTP @ 1900fps, 922 ft/lbs
124gr XTP @ 1800fps, 892 ft/lbs

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rabara9/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_6404.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rabara9/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4850.jpg

How is magazine capacity (I am fine with storing rebuild kits for the end of the world).

Thats also known as the 9mm Largo, correct? I think thats one of the few calibers cooler than the 10mm.

What is recoil like? I am a bit sensitive (due to infrequent practice, which I now have enough cash to cure). I doubt its on the level of 10mm, is it like a 45?

Can you make brass or do you buy it? What is your reloading cost? I reload so tooling up isn't a problem.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:41 PM
Level 3a will stop a 124 FMJ at 1430 fps, so that 9x25 fits the ticket.

wash
10-10-2011, 3:46 PM
I'll rely on my .475 Linebaugh.

Not quite as fast as 5.7x28 but the bullet is 10x the mass.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 3:49 PM
How is magazine capacity (I am fine with storing rebuild kits for the end of the world).

Thats also known as the 9mm Largo, correct? I think thats one of the few calibers cooler than the 10mm.

What is recoil like? I am a bit sensitive (due to infrequent practice, which I now have enough cash to cure). I doubt its on the level of 10mm, is it like a 45?

Can you make brass or do you buy it? What is your reloading cost? I reload so tooling up isn't a problem.

I have a bunch of legally owned 15rd G20 Mags, and a couple Arredondo +5 extensions. That's 20+1 rounds of Mayhem. Recoil is next to nothing, due to the extra weight of the slide & barrel, 22# spring & Large Polymer frame. The polymer frame really soaks up a ton of recoil. Shoot some hot 10mm through a 1911 & a G20 side by side, and you'll see what I mean. I'm not knocking 1911's, just stating my opinion about recoil.

wash
10-10-2011, 3:50 PM
9x25 Dillon is also tempting but it's not 9mm largo, it's a 10mm case necked down to 9mm, so it works in converted 10mm guns.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:51 PM
I have a bunch of legally owned 15rd G20 Mags, and a couple Arredondo +5 extensions. That's 20+1 rounds of Mayhem. Recoil is next to nothing, due to the extra weight of the slide & barrel, 22# spring & Large Polymer frame. The polymer frame really soaks up a ton of recoil. Shoot some hot 10mm through a 1911 & a G20 side by side, and you'll see what I mean. I'm not knocking 1911's, just stating my opinion about recoil.

I see what your saying, the G20 has that massive blocky frame to slow down lock time with all that energy.

I am starting to think a 11.5" 5.56 ar pistol will give me more fun and penetration, for a cheaper plinking round, than either the 5.7 or the 9x25... but I will keep that 9x25 on my radar.


Just read that it is necked down... I think I found my substitution for my 7.62tok. This is MUCH cooler. Thanks meathead.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 3:54 PM
Where did you get the 9x25 upper. What was the cost to put that thing together?

NVM, found the slide at Lone Wolf, is the Long Slide Heavier than the normal G20 slide?

wash
10-10-2011, 4:01 PM
As far as I know, the only things needed to convert a 10mm Glock is a barrel and recoil spring.

ElvenSoul
10-10-2011, 4:03 PM
Ask yourself this if the 5.7 is so awesome then why did Soldiers issued it ditch it so quick.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 4:07 PM
Where did you get the 9x25 upper. What was the cost to put that thing together?

NVM, found the slide at Lone Wolf, is the Long Slide Heavier than the normal G20 slide?

Both the G20L (has a cut-out like the G34/35), and the G20LS (solid top) slides are considerably heavier than the factory slide. I don't have the exact figures, but someone on Glocktalk posted a weight comparison a while back. I think it was Dan from LWD.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 4:11 PM
Both the G20L (has a cut-out like the G34/35), and the G20LS (solid top) slides are considerably heavier than the factory slide. I don't have the exact figures, but someone on Glocktalk posted a weight comparison a while back. I think it was Dan from LWD.

Digging the extra weight to soak up the recoil. Alright, i am turning off my computer before my wallet commits suicide.

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 4:19 PM
If you're considering an 11.5" AR Pistol, how about a Draco? Half the cost, cheaper ammo, cheaper mags, shorter in OAL than an 11.5" AR pistol, and practically bomb proof. Plus you wouldn't have to handload like you do with the 9x25 Dillon.

I got one of those too...

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rabara9/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_8699.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rabara9/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0272.jpg

Gryff
10-10-2011, 4:23 PM
The 5.7 is an interesting SMG round. Would NEVER trust it in a pistol. If you are in a situation where the bad guy is wearing a vest, then why don't you have a rifle?

Target19
10-10-2011, 4:26 PM
Nice Draco meathead9.
What do you think about the VZ 58?
I don't mind the cost difference.
To nrak88...if your worried about armored assailants then maybe you need to armor up yourself !!!

woods
10-10-2011, 4:48 PM
Do you have full capacity mags?

I am thinking that the ability to have faster strings of fire will help the five-seven out as well.

What bullet have you chosen? There seems to be at least 10 choices out there.

10 round mags are more than enough for me. The 40gr vmax does same or better as a 9mm jhp on my meat test and way more accurate. Anything in this state should drop with shot placement. It has taken a deer.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Target19
10-10-2011, 5:02 PM
Cool it took a deer...but deer don't fight back lol !!!
Shot placement on a deer standing still hardly mimics a gun fight don't you think.
I agree with you that the Five Seven pistol is great for hunting.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 5:44 PM
If you're considering an 11.5" AR Pistol, how about a Draco? Half the cost, cheaper ammo, cheaper mags, shorter in OAL than an 11.5" AR pistol, and practically bomb proof. Plus you wouldn't have to handload like you do with the 9x25 Dillon.

I got one of those too...

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rabara9/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_8699.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rabara9/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0272.jpg

That is BEAUTIFUL.

How is the muzzle blast? Do you have to double up on hearing protection, does it give you a head ache?

I really want a Draco, but since I can't put a stock on it, and it will be LOUD (i think) I am not sure if its my ticket. Would make a kick *** bed side gun, with a pair of ear muffs.

Plus the AR 11.5" pistol will have more range (if you can aim it), and you COULD shoulder the pistol buffer tube, although I don't know how that would feel.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 5:45 PM
Wow, I would never think of taking deer with 5.7

Doesn't seem ethical. Where did the shot land? What did it go through?

How far did the deer run? How long did it lay in ruin before it expired?

DRAB_81
10-10-2011, 6:34 PM
That is BEAUTIFUL.

How is the muzzle blast? Do you have to double up on hearing protection, does it give you a head ache?

I really want a Draco, but since I can't put a stock on it, and it will be LOUD (i think) I am not sure if its my ticket. Would make a kick *** bed side gun, with a pair of ear muffs.

Plus the AR 11.5" pistol will have more range (if you can aim it), and you COULD shoulder the pistol buffer tube, although I don't know how that would feel.

The muzzle flash/blast is no big deal during the day, but it's spits FIRE at night. I put 200rds through it on the first range trip, no headaches or ringing ears. I did wear ear plugs under my electronic ear-pro, so I'm sure it helped. It must be pretty damn loud though, because it seemed like everyone else at the range was hating life. My muzzle brake directs the blast 90 degrees to both sides, so I'm sure that didn't help. I wouldn't use it as a bedside gun though, definitely too loud for that & too much muzzle flash. I guess you could always use it as a flash-bang, but you'd probably fall victim to it as well...

I know guys that have kept 100% of their shots in the black of a B-27 silhouette target with a stock Draco @ 200yds. How much more range do you need? With a sling and iron sights, I bet I could keep up with an AR pistol with a Red Dot @ 50yds.

nrakid88
10-10-2011, 6:40 PM
The muzzle flash/blast is no big deal during the day, but it's spits FIRE at night. I put 200rds through it on the first range trip, no headaches or ringing ears. I did wear ear plugs under my electronic ear-pro, so I'm sure it helped. It must be pretty damn loud though, because it seemed like everyone else at the range was hating life. My muzzle brake directs the blast 90 degrees to both sides, so I'm sure that didn't help. I wouldn't use it as a bedside gun though, definitely too loud for that & too much muzzle flash. I guess you could always use it as a flash-bang, but you'd probably fall victim to it as well...

I know guys that have kept 100% of their shots in the black of a B-27 silhouette target with a stock Draco @ 200yds. How much more range do you need? With a sling and iron sights, I bet I could keep up with an AR pistol with a Red Dot @ 50yds.

Thats pretty encouraging. I think that when i get one, it has been on my list for a while, I will go with the a2 style flash hider. I have seen them on youtube and they really cut down on flash.

I just saw that long guns are going to be registered... so I think I am going to shift priority to getting my rifles sorted out before Jan. 1st... hopefully supply can keep up with California.

Webologist
10-10-2011, 8:58 PM
Honestly, I can't see anyone invading my home with body armor. I have nothing of value that would warrant this type of invasion. I keep my Faberge Eggs in a museum.

If anyone is invading my home, it's a bunch of hoodlum teenagers, not armored pcp-jacked invaders.

For hunting squirrels the 5.7 would be my first choice. For self defense, not so much. It seems to be a marginal stopper without a vest. I don't imagine there's much energy left if it did make it through minimal armor.

junkit_boy
10-10-2011, 9:57 PM
is FN still the only source for 5.7 ammunition? if so, that would be my biggest concern about it.

I thought about that too..

esartori
10-10-2011, 10:03 PM
for the cost and availability, I would take a 9mm any day. but i think it would be fun to shoot regardless. I am just saying if I only had one :)

Zesty
10-11-2011, 6:07 AM
How many PDs have adopted or even approve this round? How many branches of the Armed Forces?

I remember reading about at least a handful of agencies that tested and found the round not up to snuff....using EA wouldn't make me sleep any better at night knowing this.

It is a nearly ballistically equivalent to a 22wmr fired from a rifle. You may get more damage if the bullet yaws on impact, but that is an if I would rather not rely on. Besides, even if it does yaw perfectly, we are still talking about a 40grn MAX projectile. It is basically a centerfire, reloadable 22wmr on steroids, with less bullet selection.

I really hope more people see the clip of the FNH rep on Larry Vicker's show. 30 mins all about the 5.7x28mm. The actual FNH rep says the round is for backline defensive roles, not for jobs were you need to stop a threat right here and now. I will take the experience and advice of law enforcement agencies who have actually tested the round fairly, and the rep of the company that designed the round over internet fanboys any day. Sorry.

I do own an IOM and a 5.7 upper and think the weapons and round is cool and does have a niche. I just think people try and give the round some magical free lunch where it has no recoil but vaporizes humans on contact....it just doesn't work that way. I would rather not rely on velocity, hydrostatic shockwaves, yawing, and/or tumbling when it comes to my personal protection and defense. Give me a well constructed modern JHP(HST,Gold Dot,Ranger,Golden Sabre) in 9mm and up preferrably.

zonzin
10-11-2011, 8:54 AM
,,,, we are still talking about a 40grn MAX projectile. It is basically a centerfire, reloadable 22wmr on steroids, with less bullet selection.
,,,.

Not true, you can load anything from a 28gr to 50gr bullet with great performance.

The 5.7 is not the weapon to end all but it is fun to shoot and will stop a BG just fine,, Ft Hood?

It is amazingly accurate and does stuff that is hard to top with a standard caliber. I can pop the steel quail and rabbits out at the range from 60 yards without doing any compensation for drop,, the sucker shoots very flat. I cant do that with my .40. Wild pigs and coyotes have also fallen to single rounds from the 5.7, as a hunting gun on small game it is very effective.

As for expense,, it is no more costly to feed than my .40s with a decent box of .40 going for 20$. Plus I reload so it's actually cheaper, < powder , cheaper bullets.

Any I think they are darn sexy,,,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Five-seveN_USG.jpg/800px-Five-seveN_USG.jpg



.

zonzin
10-11-2011, 9:18 AM
Oh,, and to say no law or military use the Five Seven,, rubbish.

Users:
The first military organization to adopt the Five-seven was the Cypriot National Guard (Greek: Εθνική Φρουρά), which purchased 250 pistols in May 2000 for its special forces group.[1] By 2009, the Five-seven was in service with military and police forces in over 40 countries throughout the world.[20] In the United States, the Five-seven is currently used by over 300 law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.[21][60] Military and law enforcement organizations using the Five-seven include:

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww82/rjubry/calg/Capture-2.jpg


.

Quickdraw Mcgraw
10-11-2011, 9:37 AM
Good point, but on the five seven forum I read one account of a CCW dude who pulled his gun on someone who was going execution style on a crowd, the guy fires a few .45 into the perp's center mass, they are stopped by his vest, and the perp kills the CCW carrier.

Had that CCW carrier had a five seven, he'd have a chance at living.

Umm yeah, if he was rockin black-tip-carbon-fiber-whatever, but in REALITY you would not want those rds because of overpenetration, ie the 12 year old kid behind the perp who is not wearing a bullet proof vest.

Get a .40 or .45 or if yer really concerned with home defense, those black-tip armor peircing rds coming thru yer neighbors walls are Not gonna look good in court specially if someone else gets hit.

Get it for a range toy if ya really want it.

billybob_jcv
10-11-2011, 9:45 AM
I'm not very familiar with modern military firearms, but didn't most of the "next generation" advanced combat rifle programs in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc try to use much smaller projectiles - for example flechettes, or the multiple bullets from the Colt ACR? Of course, I don't think any of those advanced rifle programs were actually *successful* at delivering a truly new replacement rifle - and it seems like the latest combat rifle programs are back to more conventional ammo, with some high-tech aspects like caseless designs, air-burst add-ons and other whiz-bang goodies.

I suspect physics continues to rule - you need a high velocity to get a very flat trajectory from a heavy projectile, and when you try to push a heavy projectile to a high velocity, the total weight and/or recoil of the weapon becomes too high for the modern combat warrior. Every time they add a new piece of electronics to the kit, they need to try to lower the weight of everything else that is being carried.

nrakid88
10-11-2011, 9:45 AM
but in REALITY you would not want those rds because of overpenetration, ie the 12 year old kid behind the perp who is not wearing a bullet proof vest.


If you would take a shot at an active shooter, who is more than likely moving, while in your line of fire, but behind the bad guy is a 12 year old (or any person for that matter) then you are over confident in your marksmanship skills, and are likely to kill a innocent bystander, even if you are using a gas powered semi auto .177 pellet gun.

Zesty
10-11-2011, 10:54 AM
Not true, you can load anything from a 28gr to 50gr bullet with great performance.

The 5.7 is not the weapon to end all but it is fun to shoot and will stop a BG just fine,, Ft Hood?

It is amazingly accurate and does stuff that is hard to top with a standard caliber. I can pop the steel quail and rabbits out at the range from 60 yards without doing any compensation for drop,, the sucker shoots very flat. I cant do that with my .40. Wild pigs and coyotes have also fallen to single rounds from the 5.7, as a hunting gun on small game it is very effective.

As for expense,, it is no more costly to feed than my .40s with a decent box of .40 going for 20$. Plus I reload so it's actually cheaper, < powder , cheaper bullets.

Any I think they are darn sexy,,,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Five-seveN_USG.jpg/800px-Five-seveN_USG.jpg



.I'm sure you could fit a 72grn bullet in there(it is basically a "baby5.56/.223), but then what is your velocity with that significantly lesser powder charge capacity? Are you still gonna get proper bullet yaw on impact? Wound channel/cavity(temporary/permanent)? Hydrostatic shock? Penetration? Personally questions and wounding factors I would not rely on when dealing with handguns in general. The 2 factory loadings that are available are not over 40grns, though I am aware of the boutique loadings that are available.

I'm not completely informed as far as the Fort Hood incident, but from my understanding most soldiers were not armed. I have read the hero female officer's account of being shot with a FiveSeven and it seems that it did do some major damage(hundreds of bone fragments). Nonetheless she is still alive and able to write such an account....how is that badguy doing? She was shot with a 5.7x28mm and still was able to incapacitate the badguy with what I believe was a .40s&w(?).

In my personal experience, the FiveSeven is an accurate handgun, no doubt about it. It is flat shooting even with the watered-down factory ammo available today. In reality, it is no more or less accurate than any other full-sized centerfire handgun I own. It does have very light recoil and very easy to rack slide which is good for older or weaker people. To me at around $20/box of 50 it is really not that expensive when you consider it is a 22wmr Magnum that you can reload....most 22wmr is over $10/50 and you can't reload any of it. The 5.7x28mm is not a "standard" caliber by any stretch of the imagination, IMO. About as standard as 10mm, which I can buy for a little over .37 cents a round delivered right now.

Wild animals of all sizes have fallen to less powerful rounds than 5.7x28mm for a long time I am sure, it doesn't mean they are even close to ideal. I've heard more people die from .22lr than any other round, does that make it superior to 5.7x28mm?

You can buy a Glock 20 in 10mm and a conversion barrel to 9X25 Dillon for like half of what the retail on a FiveSeven is right now. You can buy premium 9x25 ammo from Double Tap for about the same price per round as Elite Ammo offers premium 5.7x28, and is definitely hotter and more powerful than 5.7x28mm, although you lose 5 rounds in standard capacity.

Like I said I really do think the FiveSeven is cool and love mine, but personally don't feel comfortable using it for personal defense after what I've seen. Everyone is entitled to their own choice and opinion though which is just one of the things that make America great, thank God.

*Edit* BTW your USG model FiveSeven looks very nice good photography. I want to get one to go with my IOM but can't justify the price right now and am not very partial to the aggressive grip checkering. Looks very nice though great picture.

nrakid88
10-11-2011, 11:06 PM
Zesty, While i may disagree on some of the finer points (like you saying 5.7 is inneffective, when I think its as much of a crap shoot as 9mm), I agree that 9x25mm is probably a better choice FOR ME... My girlfriend on the other hand may end up getting my glock 17 if I go this G20 9x25.

JeremyS
10-16-2011, 5:54 PM
REALLY GRAPHIC posts here thanks to all of the shootings in Mexico with the Five-seveN. We're talking dead bodies upon dead bodies. But... if you think the round is ineffective... here's a whole crap ton of real life cases where it left people dead right in their tracks: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=611628&page=5


Personally, I'd love to have a Five-seveN and a PS90. Handgun and rifle in the same caliber is very appealing to me. 20 or 30 (with a short extension) rounds in the handgun and 50 rounds sleekly along the top of the rifle. We're also talking small, light ammo that you can carry a bunch of in a range- or bug out bag and is, I'm sure, quite effective against zombies.

nrakid88
10-16-2011, 6:27 PM
REALLY GRAPHIC posts here thanks to all of the shootings in Mexico with the Five-seveN. We're talking dead bodies upon dead bodies. But... if you think the round is ineffective... here's a whole crap ton of real life cases where it left people dead right in their tracks: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=611628&page=5


Personally, I'd love to have a Five-seveN and a PS90. Handgun and rifle in the same caliber is very appealing to me. 20 or 30 (with a short extension) rounds in the handgun and 50 rounds sleekly along the top of the rifle. We're also talking small, light ammo that you can carry a bunch of in a range- or bug out bag and is, I'm sure, quite effective against zombies.


Pretty crazy stuff.

natrab
10-16-2011, 7:59 PM
I think in a lot of situations the FiveseveN is extremely effective due to its accuracy, range and capacity (which is sadly not a factor for us). As it's been said before, against armored personal, a handgun will rarely do the trick unless your aim is spot on and your attacker is ill prepared.

I'm not a ballistics expert, however if I were to choose between my Kimber, SIG or FiveseveN for home defense, I choose the FiveseveN. My personal reasons are for its light weight and ease of firing due to it's flat and light recoil. If I were to carry I'd prefer my SIG for it's incredible reliability and it's DA/SA setup. My Kimber will always be my favorite range gun.

That said, 99% of the time my FiveseveN is in my bed safe with an attached light and two extra mags.

I'm not fooling myself though, if someone tactically competent chose to break into my house at night wearing body armor and with a planned intent to kill me, they will most likely succeed. The element of surprise is a huge factor. The risk of this happening is miles below me getting taken out by a drunk driver or having a heart attack before I'm 50. That's just life.

Anyways, I voted yes to the FiveseveN as I love to shoot it. The more I shoot it, the better I am with it. Best to have a gun you enjoy and will be well practiced with.

Target19
10-16-2011, 8:49 PM
REALLY GRAPHIC posts here thanks to all of the shootings in Mexico with the Five-seveN. We're talking dead bodies upon dead bodies. But... if you think the round is ineffective... here's a whole crap ton of real life cases where it left people dead right in their tracks: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=611628&page=5


Personally, I'd love to have a Five-seveN and a PS90. Handgun and rifle in the same caliber is very appealing to me. 20 or 30 (with a short extension) rounds in the handgun and 50 rounds sleekly along the top of the rifle. We're also talking small, light ammo that you can carry a bunch of in a range- or bug out bag and is, I'm sure, quite effective against zombies.

I think people are talking about it's effectiveness in self defence not assassinations.
Assassinations also happen with .22lr very often as well but it would not be my self defence pick either.
If I am one of those few people that can't handle a 9mm then 5.7 is great.

FX-05 Xiuhcoatl
10-16-2011, 8:54 PM
5.7 if I had a 20 round mag.

Target19
10-16-2011, 9:03 PM
Oh,, and to say no law or military use the Five Seven,, rubbish.

Users:
The first military organization to adopt the Five-seven was the Cypriot National Guard (Greek: ?????? ??????), which purchased 250 pistols in May 2000 for its special forces group.[1] By 2009, the Five-seven was in service with military and police forces in over 40 countries throughout the world.[20] In the United States, the Five-seven is currently used by over 300 law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.[21][60] Military and law enforcement organizations using the Five-seven include:

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww82/rjubry/calg/Capture-2.jpg
.
He didn't say no law enforcement or military use it.
He asked how many police departments use it.
I'm pretty sure most of the military special forces carry the five seven pistol only as a backup to their awesome PDW the full auto P90.
Also most five seven guys see the Fort Hood incident as a failure.

JeremyS
10-16-2011, 9:26 PM
I think people are talking about it's effectiveness in self defence not assassinations.

Assassinations also happen with .22lr very often as well but it would not be my self defence pick either.
Sure. But I think this is maybe nit picking a bit?

The round is clearly capable of dropping people where they stand. Defenseless people being shot at have just as much desire to keep living and to do everything they can to stay alive as the aggressor in a self defense situation. It's not like they're just going to stand there and stay still during all the shooting and just wait for death to come once hit. I'd sure be running for cover before I got shot and dragging myself to cover after getting shot to the best of my abilities. Nearly all of the people in that thread literally fell right where they were when they were hit, and nearly all of the hits were body shots. Instant incapacitation is the #1 thing you'd want in a self defense round and I think these real life situations show the 5.7 is absolutely capable of that. Doesn't make it better than any other caliber and I don't mean to imply that (nor do I think it) but it's obvious that it's effective. We don't need to deny that or feel defensive about it, as 5.7 being effective doesn't mean .45 ACP isn't.

Keep in mind a lot of those people were directly involved in the drug trade. They weren't randoms and they may have been some tough kinds of fellas. Some of them may have been shooting back (it's been months since I actually looked through that thread and dont recall the circumstances of all of them).


BTW -- .22lr being used in assassinations is apparently more of a movie thing than a real life thing. Apparently the 147 grain sub-sonic 9mm is the actual, overwhelming round of choice. Much more effective terminally and still suppresses really well. Of course, I say "apparently" with strong emphasis. I don't exactly work for the CIA or anything :p

Target19
10-16-2011, 9:40 PM
My personal opinion stands as 5.7 would suck against zombies due to it's lack of power.
It would take tons of shots just to take down 1 zombie.

JeremyS
10-16-2011, 9:53 PM
My personal opinion stands as 5.7 would suck against zombies due to it's lack of power.
It would take tons of shots just to take down 1 zombie.
:rofl:

I thought a single bullet to the brain killed a zombie, regardless of caliber :confused:. I had always decided to go with small bullets and high capacity for this reason. Plus you can carry a bunch 'cuz they're light. Maybe I should reconsider my .22lr zombie ammo plan?

...but... uh... not to nit pick on my end too much but a factory 5.7 round out of a PS90 can hit 660 ft-lbs. That aint too shabby when you have 50 on the gun. Out of a Five-seveN pistol you're looking at around 385 ft-lbs. That's more than a lot of factory loaded .45 ACP. ...just sayin'...

Target19
10-16-2011, 10:01 PM
The P90 is my favorite PDW !!!
I remember watching a video on youtube where the FN civilian ammo out of a Five Seven couldn't spin a steel plate target but the Kel-Tec PMR-30 could...just saying.
Also read somewhere that the kinetic energy of the 5.7 degrades alot at longer ranges.
The Five Seven pistol also made the P90 less powerful if you know anything about the P90.
Why don't alot of competitive shooters use the Five Seven pistol ???
Seems like it would be a good choice.

DRAB_81
10-17-2011, 6:02 AM
The P90 is my favorite PDW !!!
I remember watching a video on youtube where the FN civilian ammo out of a Five Seven couldn't spin a steel plate...

Why don't alot of competitive shooters use the Five Seven pistol ???
Seems like it would be a good choice.

Even with the hottest factory offering from EA, it doesn't even make MINOR Power Factor. In order to make Minor PF (125) with a 40gr FMJ, it would have to have a minimum velocity of 3,125fps out of a handgun. To make Major PF (165), the same 40gr FMJ would have to travel at a minimum of 4,125fps.

Bullet weight (gr) x Velocity (fps) = PF

I hadn't thought about this until you asked. I don't think you can even load the 5.7 hot enough to get to Minor PF from a pistol, but you have to make super weak bunny fart loads in 9mm to drop it down to Minor.

wyrm2021
10-17-2011, 7:30 AM
The price kills it for me, both gun and ammo. Roughly 1400 for the gun and 40 cents a round for the 5.7.
For that price you can buy 3 FNP`s 9mm and a 1000 for less than 1400... roughly.

El Gato
10-17-2011, 7:54 AM
Having eliminated all of the enraged field mice in my neigborhood, I sold mine...

then I developed a problem with norway rats... fortunately Air gun depot had Gamo Whisper's on sale in twice twice caliber and have been defending the homestead against these aweful invaders... fortunately for me.. none of them have to be double tapped and then Monzambiqued nor are they needing any flying dragon farting panda shots... seems like a standard square diablo pellet does the trick every time.....quieter and cheaper than the FN....

but YMMV and if your happy with what you have then go for it... Me I'll keep the benelli in the safe next to the AR's, AK's and Mini's...and if any enraged field mice attack, I will of course be screwed since I sold my FN... or maybe I'll just shoot them with one of my bedside guns... say the Beretta 92 loaded with DPX.. a bit weak I'm sure.. but it does go off every time which is my personal main requirment in a weapon for repelling boarders....:rolleyes:

Deadon
10-17-2011, 8:36 AM
The price kills it for me, both gun and ammo. Roughly 1400 for the gun and 40 cents a round for the 5.7.
For that price you can buy 3 FNP`s 9mm and a 1000 for less than 1400... roughly.

Where are you getting those prices? I can get a 5.7 from impact for 999.00 and ammo for about 20.00 for 50 on sale. No problem.

DRAB_81
10-17-2011, 9:00 AM
Where are you getting those prices? I can get a 5.7 from impact for 999.00 and ammo for about 20.00 for 50 on sale. No problem.

$20 for 50rds = $40 for 100rds = $0.40 per round, which is what he said he found.

CJfever
10-17-2011, 10:02 AM
GOOD ARTICAL

JeremyS
10-17-2011, 10:22 AM
Even with the hottest factory offering from EA, it doesn't even make MINOR Power Factor.

Bullet weight (gr) x Velocity (fps) = PF
You're right about 5.7 out of a handgun not making the minimum PF.

The IPSC/USPSA equation is: bullet weight in grains X velocity in fps, then divide by 1,000.


you have to make super weak bunny fart loads in 9mm to drop it down to Minor.
Nah. 9mm is usually a Minor PF round. A hot .38 Super can shoot Major, but 9mm para (9x19) is shot in Minor. Most factory 9mm has a PF around 135, which is closer to the minimum PF required (125) then it is to making Major (165). Even a really hot +P round in 9x19 will struggle to hit a PF of 150.




All that said, Power Factor for sanctioned shooting sports is about perceived recoil and making it fair for competitors. It is NOT about how much kinetic energy a round actually has or what its terminal performance is. A 9mm making a PF of 135 has about 350 ft-lbs of energy, and a 5.7 making a PF of 99 has 385 ft-lbs. Basically, PF for competition has nothing to do with real life.

Deadon
10-17-2011, 10:26 AM
$20 for 50rds = $40 for 100rds = $0.40 per round, which is what he said he found.

Yeah my post was pretty much about the cost of the gun. He was 400.00 bucks off.
I still dont see how that ammo price is high. If you reload its just as cheap as anything else to reload.
Ive learned that people are going to hate on this caliber when they can. There are great videos that compare a 5.7x28, 9mm and 40 cal. They used the 197 ammo for the 5.7 and the results were very shocking. I was going to post it but I dont think it would change the mind of those that dont like a 5.7 round.

CJfever
10-17-2011, 11:32 AM
Yeah my post was pretty much about the cost of the gun. He was 400.00 bucks off.
I still dont see how that ammo price is high. If you reload its just as cheap as anything else to reload.
Ive learned that people are going to hate on this caliber when they can. There are great videos that compare a 5.7x28, 9mm and 40 cal. They used the 197 ammo for the 5.7 and the results were very shocking. I was going to post it but I dont think it would change the mind of those that dont like a 5.7 round.

I like the 5.7 round and please post it.

DRAB_81
10-17-2011, 11:36 AM
You're right about 5.7 out of a handgun not making the minimum PF.

The IPSC/USPSA equation is: bullet weight in grains X velocity in fps, then divide by 1,000.

You say tomato...
Power Factor is pretty universally interchangeable from 125,000 to 125.

Nah. 9mm is usually a Minor PF round. A hot .38 Super can shoot Major, but 9mm para (9x19) is shot in Minor. Most factory 9mm has a PF around 135, which is closer to the minimum PF required (125) then it is to making Major (165). Even a really hot +P round in 9x19 will struggle to hit a PF of 150.

If you think a 9mm 147gr bullet @ 850fps using Titegroup/N320/Clays isn't a bunny fart, I don't have much more to say. There are quite a few guys shooting 9mm Major in open class. I do realize it's a struggle, and that comped game guns are the only ones doing it.


All that said, Power Factor for sanctioned shooting sports is about perceived recoil and making it fair for competitors. It is NOT about how much kinetic energy a round actually has or what its terminal performance is. A 9mm making a PF of 135 has about 350 ft-lbs of energy, and a 5.7 making a PF of 99 has 385 ft-lbs. Basically, PF for competition has nothing to do with real life.

I was only answering the question as to why nobody uses the 5.7 in competition. I realize that PF has no real bearing on ammo performance in real life, but I don't believe it's based on recoil either. The gamers have created loads that take advantage of PF, but you still have to get there. I also believe that PF has about as much to do with real life results, as a number on paper about energy in ft-lbs. I have a 9x25 Dillon load that's almost 900ft-lbs, but I'm not going to swap out my RA45TP for it anytime soon...
.

JeremyS
10-17-2011, 12:16 PM
If you think a 9mm 147gr bullet @ 850fps ... isn't a bunny fart, I don't have much more to say.
I wouldn't necessarily argue with that (I also wouldn't stand in front of it though!). But you said that people have to purposely download 9mm in order to "drop it down to Minor," and that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't know of any factory 9mm load that isn't in minor and if you want 9x19 to qualify for Major you have to push the freakin' heck out of it.

I realize that PF has no real bearing on ammo performance in real life, but I don't believe it's based on recoil either.
It's not based on recoil, but the purpose of it is to try and approximate recoil. There are obvious advantages to shooting a low-recoil gun in a timed competition. This is the reason there is a separate Minor and Major class, and a separate class(es) for guns with compensators, counter weights, and other things. This is the reason your gun must be under a certain weight and the reason they measure your loads to make sure you meet the power requirements.


I also believe that PF has about as much to do with real life results, as a number on paper about energy in ft-lbs.
If you want real world efficacy results, see my post above (#131). If you want to determine how much power a round has, then ft-lbs is the answer and that's why I posted it. Kinetic energy is a real life number and it is a real thing. It is the real life result of anything with mass that is moving. IPSC "power factor" is a totally made up metric that is meaningless is real life. It overemphasizes bullet weight and underemphasizes velocity, because bullet weight has a larger effect on recoil.

Here, try this on. Would you rather be hit with a .45 ACP or a 5.56 round? Well, 5.56 would have a power factor around 180 and .45 ACP around 215. .40 cal about 185. I know we would all choose the pistol rounds, despite higher power factors. It just has no bearing on reality. Now when you look at 450 ft-lbs of energy with those pistol rounds and compare it to 1,330 ft-lbs with the .223, it becomes more clear why every one of us would choose the pistol round.



BTW -- your 9x25 Dillon Glock is awesome!!!!

Deadon
10-17-2011, 12:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opphm-17JfA

wyrm2021
10-17-2011, 3:52 PM
Yeah i was off a bit Im recalling what they go for in my local brick and morter. Buds currently have them for $1049 instock everthing else I can find is out of stock probably for a while now, a reflection of the cost not soon to restock. The FNP`s are going for $389, not trying to push FNP I only mention it by comparison.
And I`m not poopooin the 5.7, who in their right mind would not want one of those, I`ll take ten! But keeping with the spirit of the post I`m just giving opinion based on my life factors, Its not practical for me.
Reloads of a 5.7 does`nt make since to me either. If I could afford to do that then 9mm reload just makes more sence.
And role playing here, If I was a criminal and got a vest so I could burglarize a home with more confidence of survival of confrontation, I`d still have to stare down the barrel of a gun, no confidence here. knowing my luck I`d get shot in the head!!

Steve1968LS2
10-17-2011, 5:19 PM
Love my 5.7.. no recoil.. accurate.. holds a ton of ammo (in free states) and if you had to hump ammo you could carry way more than other rounds.

tacticalcity
10-17-2011, 5:24 PM
I thought the body armor defeating version was banned here? Am I wrong? Was that FUD that I bought into? If it is banned then the OPs question is invalidated, since the way he phrased it depends largely on the Five-Seven round being able to defeat body armor. That might not be why you chose it, but others may read the poll question and be mislead.

scootle
10-17-2011, 6:15 PM
I think this was mentioned, but it bears mentioning again... DocGKR is fairly well-respected in the various circles... his take on PDW-caliber options:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

Also, directly to the point of 22WMR vs. 5.7:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89538

I think lots of this discussion lately of PDW calibers was the recent realization that some agency in the SFBA may be fielding H&K MP7 PDW weapon systems with their motorcycle officers...

billybob_jcv
10-17-2011, 6:16 PM
I still say vest penetration is a silly issue for a variety of reasons. If I'm going to worry about incredibly unlikely scenarios, then I might as well get a cabin in the deep woods surrounded by claymores and punji sticks and wait for the Big One to drop. And in that scenario, I would probably opt for firearms that take ammo that comes in big 1000 round boxes & sealed sardine cans, and/or can shoot bullets made out of old tire weights melted over a campfire... :TFH:

m98
10-17-2011, 11:58 PM
You have to remember that the 5.7 crowd is going to step in EVERY time "5.7" is in the title of a thread. Us 10mm guys are the same way when a 10mm topic comes up. Take it with a grain of salt, just like anything else on here.

Yep. The 5.7 fanbois here will defend itself to the very death even if the facts they're presenting has no relevance. In kommifornia, the 5.7 pistol/subgun is retardedly handicapped by mag capacity. There's just no point in this weapon. This weapon was designed for max rapid controlled fire power not nudered to 10 shots.

HK4113
10-18-2011, 12:04 AM
Yep. The 5.7 fanbois here will defend itself to the very death even if the facts they're presenting has no relevance. In kommifornia, the 5.7 pistol/subgun is retardedly handicapped by mag capacity. There's just no point in this weapon. This weapon was designed for max rapid controlled fire power not nudered to 10 shots.

The topic was about the confidence in the 5.7 round, not the feasibility of a neutered five seven handgun. Your trying to argue something not relevant to the question presentd.

m98
10-18-2011, 12:17 AM
The topic was about the confidence in the 5.7 round, not the feasibility of a neutered five seven handgun. Your trying to argue something not relevant to the question presentd.

I believe it is very relevant to the topic. The purpose of the 5.7 was its ability to penetrate armor and being able to put multiple shots on target fasttttt. How effective would it be if the 5.7 subgun was limited to only 10rds and no fa? Do you think militaries would be stunned at its performance? Do you wanna pay 70k for a vette thats got 150(powerful horses) under the hood. I'd think not. Now why is the 5.7 so great in kommifornia when its power is only comparible to 22mag?

guns_and_labs
10-18-2011, 12:50 PM
I think this was mentioned, but it bears mentioning again... DocGKR is fairly well-respected in the various circles... his take on PDW-caliber options:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

Also, directly to the point of 22WMR vs. 5.7:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89538

I think lots of this discussion lately of PDW calibers was the recent realization that some agency in the SFBA may be fielding H&K MP7 PDW weapon systems with their motorcycle officers...

But doesn't DocGKR suggest that an M4 or something chambered in 6.8 is the minimum acceptable?

holasrmateo
10-25-2011, 4:07 PM
Most people in here I am sure have never seen let alone shot a Five-Seven so here are some pictures from this weekend. Each pumpkin is about the size a grape fruit, ammo was the commercially available SS197, out of my Five-Seven exiting at about 1700fps. I don't have the numbers off hand (you can look them up yourself) but that is significantly faster than 9mm, .40 or .45, of course at the expense of weight. Anyways on to pictures.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6038/6281113651_646e2f96dc_b.jpg

The first pumpkin at 21 yards. Not pictured well is how the bullet exited sideways rather than a pinpoint.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6091/6281113401_4bef8c49dc_b.jpg

Another pumpkin at 21 yards.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6115/6281115253_40ca2e3202_b.jpg

The same pumpkin, but turned sideways to show both the entry, exit and the expansion of the pumpkin.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6038/6281629758_9d6f46fbc6_b.jpg

Actually shot twice, this is at 50 yards or so. The original entry and exit is obvious. Note that at 50 yards, standing, is beyond the effective range of 9mm, .40 or .45 out of a pistol, and still be able to hit and stop the target. At this range, the gun was still as accurate as I could aim.

As a defensive round, I am very confident in the performance of 5.7x28mm. Anyone who says otherwise has clearly never shot 5.7x28mm and is parroting what they have heard from everyone else and/or are regurgitating the BS theory of one shot kill (everything is about placement and why on earth would you only be shooting someone once).

To be fair I would be comfortable with 9mm, .40, or .45 as a defensive round as well. The main advantage to 5.7x28mm is that it has a higher velocity, longer range and has a higher magazine capacity than a comparable gun (only the Glock 17 comes close with 19 rounds versus a Five-Seven's 20 rounds; it has a larger high capacity magazine at 33 rounds compared to 30 rounds but the ammo is larger and weighs almost twice as much.) Cost of ammo is the same as .45 online.

That all being said, as capable as it is, it isn't the gun or round I would choose for California, given that the magazine limit is 10 rounds (I currently live outside of California). It's not even necessarily the gun I would recommend outside of California since the Glock 17 is cheaper, 9mm is cheaper, capacity is slightly less, weight is only slightly heavier, but the 5.7 and the Five Seven are definitely effective as far as I'm concerned.

billybob_jcv
10-25-2011, 4:55 PM
Next time I'm attacked by a horde of killer pumpkins, I'll know just who to call...

:gnorsi:

dexter9659
10-25-2011, 5:32 PM
Pumpkins dont show the true value of hydrostatic shock. Cantaloupes and watermelons do a much better job, try those.

As for the 5.7 argument: the caliber is not my cup of tea. I prefer an 870 shotgun and a SW revolver. Both are mechanical.

Uriah02
10-25-2011, 6:37 PM
That **** is not SS190 black tip smart ***.:rolleyes::facepalm:

The velocity of the 5.7x28 FMJ cartridge like almost all other rifle cartridges will defeat body armor rated for handgun cartridges (NIJ level III and lower).

holasrmateo
10-25-2011, 8:44 PM
Pumpkins dont show the true value of hydrostatic shock. Cantaloupes and watermelons do a much better job, try those.

As for the 5.7 argument: the caliber is not my cup of tea. I prefer an 870 shotgun and a SW revolver. Both are mechanical.

How do you figure? Because its hollow? It wasn't supposed to be a perfect human analogue, just seasonally appropriate. If 5.7 isn't for you that's fine. At least you admit that.

Zesty
10-26-2011, 6:57 AM
"As a defensive round, I am very confident in the performance of 5.7x28mm. Anyone who says otherwise has clearly never shot 5.7x28mm and is parroting what they have heard from everyone else and/or are regurgitating the BS theory of one shot kill (everything is about placement and why on earth would you only be shooting someone once)."

I don't know where you get that from, quite a few of the people who have responded currently own the pistol, have shot it, and do not feel comfortable with it for SD.

With all due respect, it seems to me like the fanboys of the 5.7x28mm round are always regurgitating the same fluffy info, and disregarding the criticisms of some of the more established names in wounding factors and ballistics.

I will take the words and advice of the FNH reps and FBI test results, personally.

I'm glad people are confident in their FiveSevens to protect them, and I truly hope it serves them well. I personally don't see myself ever getting that kind of confidence based on what I've seen and read. To each his own.

raymartrading
10-26-2011, 7:34 AM
Why don't we do our own body armor field test like these guys at 1:57

http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6558847/troopers-gun-privileges

holasrmateo
10-26-2011, 2:30 PM
I don't know where you get that from, quite a few of the people who have responded currently own the pistol, have shot it, and do not feel comfortable with it for SD.

With all due respect, it seems to me like the fanboys of the 5.7x28mm round are always regurgitating the same fluffy info, and disregarding the criticisms of some of the more established names in wounding factors and ballistics.

I will take the words and advice of the FNH reps and FBI test results, personally.

I'm glad people are confident in their FiveSevens to protect them, and I truly hope it serves them well. I personally don't see myself ever getting that kind of confidence based on what I've seen and read. To each his own.

The argument isn't 5.7x28mm is the best pistol round ever invented period. It isn't even if it is better than 9mm, .40 or .45. It is that the 5.7x28mm is effective as a self defense round and that in my opinion anyone who says otherwise has either never shot it (possibly applies to you) or has already chosen not to like it (definitely applies to you).

The same logic that dismisses the 5.7x28mm, is the same logic applied to varying degrees to major pistol calibers such as 9mm, .40 and .45. It's all subjective. Can any of the aforementioned calibers be used effectively for self defense? Yes. Is any better than the other? What is better? The round itself, it might not matter in a home defense situation, since each would be effective enough to stop an intruder. Dead is dead.

Again in California the advantages of a Five-Seven are completely negated when compared to other pistols by the magazine limit. On this basis alone I wouldn't recommend the Five-Seven over any other pistol for self defense. But that isn't the issue. The issue was if you (everyone) was confident in its ability for self defense.

guns_and_labs
10-31-2011, 11:28 AM
I will take the words and advice of the FNH reps and FBI test results, personally.


I trust you've actually read the research, not someone's summary of it.

There are other studies that have been done, on live and dead animal tissue, that are probably better metrics of how a cartridge performs in a self defense situation. But, if I had my choice, I'd still rather defend myself with an AR, lots of ammunition, and several friends similarly armed. The FiveseveN is NOT as effective at SD as a platoon of riflemen.

DRAB_81
10-31-2011, 2:17 PM
It is that the 5.7x28mm is effective as a self defense round and that in my opinion anyone who says otherwise has either never shot it or has already chosen not to like it.

That doesn't make any sense at all. Just because someone has never shot the FN FiveSeven doesn't mean that they can't make an educated decision about whether they are satisfied with its ballistics.

If a guy says "the FN FiveSeven Pistol sucks", then that argument holds water. It would be like someone saying "Glocks/XDs/M&Ps etc. Suck", without ever shooting one. Nobody here has said that. A lot of guys that own 5.7's love them, but still would never choose to carry it for SD. The 5.7 pistol may be a great shooter, with low recoil and accurate at long range, but it's still a glorified .22 Magnum...

MasterYong
10-31-2011, 2:44 PM
Pretty lame poll options.

Where is the "I have yet to see any evidence supporting or disproving the 5.7x28mm round's ability to stop a threat"???

Ike Arumba
10-31-2011, 3:56 PM
Note that at 50 yards, standing, is beyond the effective range of 9mm, .40 or .45 out of a pistol, and still be able to hit and stop the target. At this range, the gun was still as accurate as I could aim.

What? Seriously? I could have sworn to have shot up water jugs and cans at 40 yards with .40 S&W, 9mm, .32ACP, and .22LR out of handguns. The main limitation is how well I can hold the sights on target as the sear releases. I doubt that 50 yards would be much different.

holasrmateo
10-31-2011, 4:11 PM
That doesn't make any sense at all. Just because someone has never shot the FN FiveSeven doesn't mean that they can't make an educated decision about whether they are satisfied with its ballistics.

If a guy says "the FN FiveSeven Pistol sucks", then that argument holds water. It would be like someone saying "Glocks/XDs/M&Ps etc. Suck", without ever shooting one. Nobody here has said that. A lot of guys that own 5.7's love them, but still would never choose to carry it for SD. The 5.7 pistol may be a great shooter, with low recoil and accurate at long range, but it's still a glorified .22 Magnum...

The post above of you is an example of an educated decision, that its still not a substitute for a rifle (and its not), your opinion is not. Again the question isn't if 5.7x28mm is better than 9x19mm, .40 or .45, or that it is your prefered round for SD, it is if it is effective for SD. Nothing you said refutes that. In fact nothing rejects .22 WMR in that Kel Tec pistol being suitable for SD either. Just that you and others don't like them just because and therefore they must suck.

zonzin
11-01-2011, 6:17 AM
There's just no point in this weapon. This weapon was designed for max rapid controlled fire power not nudered to 10 shots.



^^^ Not relevant,, one shot one kill.

Zesty
11-01-2011, 8:24 AM
The argument isn't 5.7x28mm is the best pistol round ever invented period. It isn't even if it is better than 9mm, .40 or .45. It is that the 5.7x28mm is effective as a self defense round and that in my opinion anyone who says otherwise has either never shot it (possibly applies to you) or has already chosen not to like it (definitely applies to you).

The same logic that dismisses the 5.7x28mm, is the same logic applied to varying degrees to major pistol calibers such as 9mm, .40 and .45. It's all subjective. Can any of the aforementioned calibers be used effectively for self defense? Yes. Is any better than the other? What is better? The round itself, it might not matter in a home defense situation, since each would be effective enough to stop an intruder. Dead is dead.

Again in California the advantages of a Five-Seven are completely negated when compared to other pistols by the magazine limit. On this basis alone I wouldn't recommend the Five-Seven over any other pistol for self defense. But that isn't the issue. The issue was if you (everyone) was confident in its ability for self defense.

I actually completely respect and agree with your logic here. In the end it does all come down to shot placement and proficiency with the given weapon. Even if the 5.7x28mm is "ballistically inferior" to even a 9mm, I still have no doubt it would totally ruin someone's day. And you are correct handgun rounds in general are poor manstoppers so shot placement really is paramount.

If you are like me and find the FiveSeven to be no more(or less) accurate than any other handgun I own(barring my Walther P22 :mad:), I think there's no real reason NOT to step up to a bigger, heavier caliber....like you said with the 10rd limit it kinda becomes a deal breaker as that is a big sacrifice in capacity(21 to 11).

As for the research I am sure I haven't read it all, but 3 years ago or so when I was looking into buying my buddy's IOM I was pretty heavily consumed with absorbing all the information I could on this controversial round. I have read all those links and studies posted by Dr. Roberts, Marshal and Sannow, Fackler, the FBI results from Quantico, youtube, brassfetcher, EA, wikipedia, fiveseven and various other forums, breakdowns of murders in Mexico, and I believe I saw a few reports from various LEA....I want to say one of them was some sort of Canadian special forces. Personally, the only impressive ballistic gel test results I have seen published are from Elite Ammo and Brassfetcher...I don't know about Brassfetcher but EA is obviously inherrently biased, and Brassfetcher makes me wonder to be honest. Just the fact that multiple LEA have tested it, some have used it, and nearly none of them currently issue it tells me a lot. LEA usually seem to not have much of a problem changing up calibers and weapons platforms when something "newer and better" is out there....they mostly switched to .40s&w, not 5.7x28mm. If the 5.7x28mm was very impressive in testing I have no doubt they would issue it...but it was not so they don't.

However, the biggest piece of info that swayed me, and I'm sure people are sick of me repeating it haha, was on the 30-minute special on Larry Vicker's show all about the 5.7x28mm. The FNH rep himself makes it a point to state that this round was not designed for "offensive" roles. More of a "get-off-me" backline gun for medics and techs that are less likely to need to use the rifle. If anyone would want to hype the round, I would think it would be a rep of FNH....he didn't at all....it was kind of shocking to me really that he would be so refreshingly honest...I definitely respect his integrity and "stone-size".

Once I actually bought the gun a few years ago I stopped actively researching the round. Figured I'm already invested, why keep reading stuff that makes me keep rethinking my purchase haha...kinda like you should never double-check prices after you have bought a gun...just setting yourself up for heartbreak! hahaha

Again I really like my FiveSeven IOM, and would never plan on parting with it. Fun gun, cool niche, good for coyotes on down, not self defense, IMO. YMMV

Zesty
11-01-2011, 8:31 AM
Sorry for the double-post, but holasrmateo if you think I have possibly never shot a FiveSeven, I would be completely willing to take you up on a friendly wager. haha
I don't know why you are stuck on this thought that people either have not used the pistol, or have their hearts set on not liking it....do you really think that I would try to NOT LIKE something I paid nearly a grand for?! I just try and be honest and not make things out to be something they are not.

What kinds of testing have you done with your FiveSeven? How many different rounds have you tried? How long have you owned your FiveSeven? How many rounds do you have through the tube? How many handguns do you actually own? I would happily show you my FiveSeven IOM, I even still have like 20 boxes of ss192 that I will let you shoot if you ask nicely...but please stop trying to paint everyone with one brush stroke, because you are completely off-base here sir.

*Edit* Btw, where did I ever state that I did not like the FiveSeven? Please don't put words in my mouth...I have actually stated I love it multiple times, just not for SD. Also, if you think 50yds free-standing is outside the effective range of common service calibers, you would be sorrily mistaken.

a1c
11-01-2011, 8:54 AM
I'm confident with 9mm, .40SW or 10mm - the three varieties of caliber that sleep in my nightstand on a regular basis. I would trust the 5.7 as well - it's a bad-*** caliber that's got a proven body count.

We can start keep statistics like armchair ballistics experts, but in the end, what you want is a good gun you can trust and shoot well. If the Five Seven is that gun for you, then by all means - practice, practice, and stop stressing out about anecdotes and FBI stats.

Buffman
11-02-2011, 5:56 PM
I think this was mentioned, but it bears mentioning again... DocGKR is fairly well-respected in the various circles... his take on PDW-caliber options:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

Also, directly to the point of 22WMR vs. 5.7:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89538

I think lots of this discussion lately of PDW calibers was the recent realization that some agency in the SFBA may be fielding H&K MP7 PDW weapon systems with their motorcycle officers...


What I find odd, is that in order to read any of the full reports contained in DGR's post, you have to be MIL/LEO with approved papers and such. To Futher, look at some of the test dates, and mentioned projectile weight. They tested the obsolete 23gr polymer core SS90 (not 190) round. DGR does a lovely job at showing terminal performance of most of all the ammunition he tests, yet why can't we see the actual results from his testing of 5.7 (which he's only tested the SS90 according to his article along with Fackler) even if the results were horrible. Why don't we have current incidents reciting the ineffectivness of the caliber from LEO/MIL use, just reposted/pasted/repeat stories?

BT927
11-03-2011, 4:52 AM
No, because ballistics is ballistics, and that was my argument. Regardless of the weapon, I don't feel that the 22WMR is suitable for anything other than Absolute Last Resort Self Defense, so a 5.7 isn't any better as far as ballistics go.
Your argument was completely and utterly flawed, then. Aside from the fact that you are stacking a 24-inch .22 WMR barrel against a 4.8-inch Five-seveN barrel (a laughable "comparison"), there is also the fact that you likely cannot even produce a single verifiable news account of .22 WMR from a rifle being used to shoot someone; so your comparison is completely meaningless. Shootings with .22 WMR from a pistol are not analogous, either, because .22 WMR from a pistol only achieves about 1,200 ft/s (as opposed to 2,000 ft/s from a 24-inch rifle barrel).

Your comparison is also completely unnecessary to begin with, because there is a wealth of information already available on shootings with the 5.7x28mm itself, so there is no need for guessing or extrapolation (the THR thread linked earlier contains some of the Mexico information). Based on the information available from actual shootings with 5.7x28mm, every indication is that the caliber is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers.




Wow, I would never think of taking deer with 5.7

Doesn't seem ethical. Where did the shot land? What did it go through?
While we're on the subject of hunting, here are a few animals (posted elsewhere by various people) taken with the caliber:


http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n314/sylvester1498/Hog%20Dec%202010/2010-12-02_12-47-12_153.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n314/sylvester1498/Hog%20Dec%202010/2010-12-02_13-21-03_825.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/boar5728rc.jpg

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4278/newimagesk.jpg


The 160-pound hog in the first two pictures was dropped with one round of SS197SR (not sure about the hog in the third picture).

The 182-pound deer in the last picture was dropped from 70 meters with one round of SS197SR through the lungs/heart.




The actual FNH rep says the round is for backline defensive roles,
All handguns are defensive weapons, by nature, so of course the Five-seveN is a defensive weapon. It is not a rifle, nor was it intended to replace rifles. The P90 submachine gun is also obviously a defensive weapon; it is not a rifle, nor was it intended to replace rifles. The 5.7x28mm caliber was designed to replace the 9x19mm in NATO service, and it would have already done that by now, if not for Germany/HK and the 4.6x30mm stalling the process. That is established fact.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061016074936/http://www.global-defence.com/2006/Utilities/article.php?id=40




I will take the experience and advice of law enforcement agencies who have actually tested the round fairly
You can take this experience and advice, then...

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=309

"I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon."

"The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets."

"If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready."

--- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)



http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-to-win-gunfight-by-sandy-wall.html

Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."



http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/radical-tactical-firepower/

S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.

“I was so impressed by the 5.728mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”




I have read the hero female officer's account of being shot with a FiveSeven and it seems that it did do some major damage(hundreds of bone fragments). Nonetheless she is still alive and able to write such an account....how is that badguy doing?
With regards to your last question, the Fort Hood killer was shot five times with 9mm and survived to stand trial.




She was shot with a 5.7x28mm and still was able to incapacitate the badguy with what I believe was a .40s&w(?).
She did not shoot the killer; another police officer, Sgt. Mark Todd, shot the killer. She took a few shots at him (missed), and she was lying on the ground badly wounded when Sgt. Todd shot and stopped the killer. More information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting




I think this was mentioned, but it bears mentioning again... DocGKR is fairly well-respected in the various circles...
The testing mentioned in that post is grossly outdated. All of the ancient papers cited in that post cover ammunition that is unavailable to civilians (SS190) or discontinued about 20 years ago (SS90). Despite his vocal opposition to the caliber, the dentist has not tested any of the 5.7x28mm loads introduced in the last 15-20 years. As for the internet forum stories he copy-pasted there, they are just that -- internet forum stories.




Now why is the 5.7 so great in kommifornia when its power is only comparible to 22mag?
As noted earlier, the 5.7x28mm achieves a muzzle velocity about 800 ft/s higher than that of .22 WMR, in a pistol-to-pistol comparison with identical bullet weights. The 5.7x28mm is only similar to .22 WMR in a stacked pistol-to-rifle comparison (24-inch .22 WMR barrel versus 4.8-inch 5.7x28mm barrel), which is completely irrelevant and meaningless.

zonzin
11-03-2011, 5:54 AM
Well this post should about do it. Thanks BT927 for puting together all of this data. very well done. Thread closed.




.

DRAB_81
11-03-2011, 6:40 AM
@BT927:

How is my argument irrelevant? Like I've said several times already, I'm not comparing weapons, I'm comparing BALLISTICS. Ballistics is Ballistics, an it's always relevant regardless of what it's shot through.

You scoff at me for comparing the 5.7 pistol ballistics to .22mag Rifle ballistics, but the bulk of your argument is based on the 10" Barreled P90 PDW. The 5.7 Pistol barrel is only 4.75", and loses A TON of velocity because of that (see EA's chrono data).

Also, those hunting pics are irrelevant. You could easily find pictures and stories of bigger game taken with a .22lr. Everyone can agree here, shot placement is key.

MrSlippyFist
11-03-2011, 7:05 AM
Isn't the 5.7x28 round (out of FN's pistol) the ballistic equivalent of a .22 Magnum?

No thanks, I'll stick with 45, 10mm & 9mm for handguns. If I was worried about body armor, I'd grab my AK...

Not even close.

BT927
11-03-2011, 7:15 AM
How is my argument irrelevant? Like I've said several times already, I'm not comparing weapons, I'm comparing BALLISTICS.
Your argument is irrelevant because you're making a meaningless, unnecessary comparison:

1. The comparison is meaningless because you can't even produce any shooting data involving actual human targets being shot with .22 WMR fired out of a rifle (shootings with .22 WMR pistols don't count, because they only achieve about 1,200 ft/s).

2. The comparison is unnecessary because, as I stated, there is already a wealth of information available on shootings with the 5.7x28mm itself, so there is no need for guessing or shaky comparisons or extrapolation. Based on the extensive information available from actual shootings with 5.7x28mm, every indication is that the caliber is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers.



You scoff at me for comparing the 5.7 pistol ballistics to .22mag Rifle ballistics, but the bulk of your argument is based on the 10" Barreled P90 PDW.
Wrong.

Actually, EA's 5.7x28mm loads out of the 4.8-inch Five-seveN barrel achieve higher muzzle velocities than SS190 out of the 10.3-inch P90 barrel. EA's loads out of the Five-seveN pistol perform much better than the watered down FN factory ammo that has itself been shown effective in numerous shootings.



Also, those hunting pics are irrelevant.
On the contrary, dropping a 182-pound deer with a single shot to the chest cavity is entirely relevant to a discussion on terminal ballistics in human targets. The V-MAX bullet went through a rib, expanded, and still penetrated deep enough to take out the lungs/heart.



You could easily find pictures and stories of bigger game taken with a .22lr.
Indeed I could, and on top of that, there is the fact that 5.7x28mm from a pistol produces about double the muzzle velocity and four times the muzzle energy of a .22 LR from a rifle. The .22 LR kills, yes, and the 5.7x28mm performs (and kills) even better. You're tearing down your own argument here.



Everyone can agree here, shot placement is key.
Indeed it is, and we're discussing the Five-seveN, which for most is a 21-round (or even 31-round) pistol with low recoil.

DRAB_81
11-03-2011, 8:13 AM
Your argument is irrelevant because you're making a meaningless, unnecessary comparison:

1. The comparison is meaningless because you can't even produce any shooting data involving actual human targets being shot with .22 WMR fired out of a rifle (shootings with .22 WMR pistols don't count, because they only achieve about 1,200 ft/s).

If you can't see the relevance, I won't bother arguing this with you anymore.

2. The comparison is unnecessary because, as I stated, there is already a wealth of information available on shootings with the 5.7x28mm itself, so there is no need for guessing or shaky comparisons or extrapolation. Based on the extensive information available from actual shootings with 5.7x28mm, every indication is that the caliber is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers.




Wrong.

Actually, EA's 5.7x28mm loads out of the 4.8-inch Five-seveN barrel achieve higher muzzle velocities than SS190 out of the 10.3-inch P90 barrel. EA's loads out of the Five-seveN pistol perform much better than the watered down FN factory ammo that has itself been shown effective in numerous shootings.

You continue to be a walking contradiction.
You keep trashing my apples to oranges comparison, yet your argument here is about 2 different 5.7 rounds. Compare the same EA round out of the 5.7 Pistol & P90, then tell me the pistol gets better velocity.




On the contrary, dropping a 182-pound deer with a single shot to the chest cavity is entirely relevant to a discussion on terminal ballistics in human targets. The V-MAX bullet went through a rib, expanded, and still penetrated deep enough to take out the lungs/heart.

So you consider 6-8" of deer to be adequate penetration?




Indeed I could, and on top of that, there is the fact that 5.7x28mm from a pistol produces about double the muzzle velocity and four times the muzzle energy of a .22 LR from a rifle. The .22 LR kills, yes, and the 5.7x28mm performs (and kills) even better. You're tearing down your own argument here.

You split my words up so that it seems that way. My intent was to show that just because a .22lr or 5.7 CAN kill a game animal, doesn't mean it's optimal. For every pic of a dead animal shot with a 5.7, there's probably 1000 of animals killed with a .22lr. Does that mean hunters should drop their 30-06's for .22's? Absolutely not.



Indeed it is, and we're discussing the Five-seveN, which for most is a 21-round (or even 31-round) pistol with low recoil.

THIS IS CALIFORNIA. THE 5.7 IS A 10RD PISTOL HERE. PERIOD.

MrSlippyFist
11-03-2011, 8:25 AM
THIS IS CALIFORNIA. THE 5.7 IS A 10RD PISTOL HERE. PERIOD.

Absolutely. Unless of course you have a PS90. Or unless, of course, you have an AR57 upper. Or if you're LE. Then it's something else as well. Isn't it?

DRAB_81
11-03-2011, 8:34 AM
Absolutely. Unless of course you have a PS90. Or unless, of course, you have an AR57 upper. Or if you're LE. Then it's something else as well. Isn't it?

Can you read? I said pistol, and yes this is true for the 5.7 pistols.

Since we're talking about it, even the rifles are 10rd weapons since they need bullet buttons. I may be wrong about the rifles if hi-cap pre-ban mags exist for the PS90 or AR57 though.

This is a civilian based thread, so I used civilian based information.

BT927
11-03-2011, 8:41 AM
If you can't see the relevance, I won't bother arguing this with you anymore.
Translation: you proved my comparison was meaningless and irrelevant, and I'm not even aware of a single shooting involving a .22 WMR rifle, so I can't argue this point anymore.



You continue to be a walking contradiction.
You keep trashing my apples to oranges comparison, yet your argument here is about 2 different 5.7 rounds. Compare the same EA round out of the 5.7 Pistol & P90, then tell me the pistol gets better velocity.
The only contradictions (and flat out falsehoods) have been yours.

You said the bulk of my argument is based on the performance of the 10.3-inch P90 barrel, which is completely false.

- Clue: Anything and everything I posted about P90 performance was with regards to FN's SS190, which only achieves about 2,300 ft/s out of the 10.3-inch P90 barrel.

- Clue: EA's 5.7x28mm loads are pushing bullets at higher muzzle velocities out of the Five-seveN pistol than SS190 does out of the P90.



So you consider 6-8" of deer to be adequate penetration?
Read my post. The bullet (fired from 70 meters) went through the deer's rib before expanding and going on to penetrate the lungs/heart. Yes, that is adequate performance -- that is more than adequate performance. Furthermore, EA's loads achieve much deeper penetration than the load in question (SS197SR) and also expand more.



My intent was to show that just because a .22lr or 5.7 CAN kill a game animal, doesn't mean it's optimal.
No one said either caliber is "optimal" for killing a game animal. 'Optimal' is a synonym of 'best'. Your 9mm or .45 ACP or 10mm pistol is not "optimal" for killing a game animal.

The fact is that .22 LR kills humans and animals on a regular basis, and 5.7x28mm from a pistol produces about double the muzzle velocity and four times the muzzle energy of a .22 LR from a rifle. The .22 LR kills, yes, and that is not an argument in your favor; the 5.7x28mm performs (and kills) even better -- much better.

Bhobbs
11-03-2011, 8:42 AM
8z49Lbnt16M

4U40ArShS6M

59GC2hAhGTk

92j3g168dIY

BT927
11-03-2011, 8:51 AM
8z49Lbnt16M[/YOUTUBE]

4U40ArShS6M[/YOUTUBE]
We can make that comparison valid by using high quality 5.7x28mm ammunition (not cherry-picked SS197SR) alongside a comparable caliber (9x19mm):

9x19mm 147-grain Golden Saber (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA)

5.7x28mm 28-grain EA S4M (http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_S4M.wmv)

5.7x28mm 50-grain EA Pro II (http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv)

Note that all three tests were conducted in the same media by the same independent source (Brassfetcher).

Bhobbs
11-03-2011, 9:09 AM
We can make that comparison valid by using high quality 5.7x28mm ammunition (not cherry-picked SS197SR) alongside a comparable caliber (9x19mm):

9x19mm 147-grain Golden Saber (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA)

5.7x28mm 28-grain EA S4M (http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_S4M.wmv)

5.7x28mm 50-grain EA Pro II (http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv)

Note that all three tests were conducted in the same media by the same independent source (Brassfetcher).


I didn't cherry pick it, I posted what they had. I'm sure PMC JHP isn't the best loading for the 10mm either.

DRAB_81
11-03-2011, 9:11 AM
Translation: you proved my comparison was meaningless and irrelevant, and I'm not even aware of a single shooting involving a .22 WMR rifle, so I can't argue this point anymore.

No, a translation is not needed here. It's plain English. If you can't understand the relevance in my argument, than I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore.


The only contradictions (and flat out falsehoods) have been yours.

Enlighten me as to what "flat out falsehood" I have posted?

You said the bulk of my argument is based on the performance of the 10.3-inch P90 barrel, which is completely false.

- Clue: Anything and everything I posted about P90 performance was with regards to FN's SS190, which only achieves about 2,300 ft/s out of the 10.3-inch P90 barrel.

- Clue: EA's 5.7x28mm loads are pushing bullets at higher muzzle velocities out of the Five-seveN pistol than SS190 does out of the P90.

Again, that's your comparison not mine. Here are some more relevant numbers:

EA VarminTOR (36gr Berger Bullet): (just to show velocity difference)
FiveseveN Pistol:* 2,202fps-388 ft LBS*(4.75")
P90: 2,690fps-574 ft LBS**(10")
PS90: 2,923fps-683 ft LBS (16")



Read my post. The bullet (fired from 70 meters) went through the deer's rib before expanding and going on to penetrate the lungs/heart. Yes, that is adequate performance -- that is more than adequate performance. Furthermore, EA's loads achieve much deeper penetration than the load in question (SS197SR) and also expand more.




No one said either caliber is "optimal" for killing a game animal. 'Optimal' is a synonym of 'best'. Your 9mm or .45 ACP or 10mm pistol is not "optimal" for killing a game animal.

The fact is that .22 LR kills humans and animals on a regular basis, and 5.7x28mm from a pistol produces about double the muzzle velocity and four times the muzzle energy of a .22 LR from a rifle. The .22 LR kills, yes, and that is not an argument in your favor; the 5.7x28mm performs (and kills) even better -- much better.

Who are you a Rep for? FN? EA? 3 posts all in this thread, and you can't seem to give a straight answer. Keep dancing around the facts, and distracting from the valid points/questions here.

BT927
11-03-2011, 9:12 AM
I didn't cherry pick it, I posted what they had. I'm sure PMC JHP isn't the best loading for the 10mm either.
Anyway, as the above three video links demonstrate, high quality 5.7x28mm is indistinguishable from high quality 9x19mm in ballistic gelatin.

Bhobbs
11-03-2011, 9:24 AM
Anyway, as the above three video links demonstrate, high quality 5.7x28mm is distinguishable from high quality 9x19mm in ballistic gelatin.

By distinguishable, do you mean better or not as good?

For a home defense pistol I would prefer 10mm. In California we are artificially limited to 10 rounds max. I would rather dump 10 rounds of high quality 10mm into the intruder than 10 rounds of 5.7 or 9mm.

BT927
11-03-2011, 9:27 AM
No, a translation is not needed here. It's plain English. If you can't understand the relevance in my argument, than I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore.
There is no relevance to your comparison, and we both know that's why you dropped it. You tried to compare a Five-seveN pistol to a .22 WMR rifle, which is never even used in actual shootings (only .22 WMR pistols, and those are nowhere near .22 WMR rifles in terms of velocity and energy).



Enlighten me as to what "flat out falsehood" I have posted?
You said the bulk of my argument is based on the performance of the 10.3-inch P90 barrel, which is completely false.

- Fact: Anything and everything I posted about P90 performance was with regards to FN's SS190, which only achieves about 2,300 ft/s out of the 10.3-inch P90 barrel.

- Fact: EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which my argument is centered around) are pushing bullets at higher muzzle velocities out of the Five-seveN pistol than SS190 does out of the P90.



Who are you a Rep for? FN? EA?
No, I'm correcting misinformation for the sake of correcting misinformation. Unlike you, I also own the gun and have a genuine interest in the topic. Unlike you (and a few others in this thread), my argument is not based on stacked comparisons, baseless conjecture, or unverifiable internet stories. My argument is based on independent testing and verifiable accounts (supported by articles and photos) of animals or humans shot with the caliber.

BT927
11-03-2011, 9:37 AM
By distinguishable, do you mean better or not as good?
That was a typo. What I meant to say is that those three videos show that high quality 5.7x28mm is indistinguishable from 9x19mm in ballistic gelatin.



For a home defense pistol I would prefer 10mm. In California we are artificially limited to 10 rounds max. I would rather dump 10 rounds of high quality 10mm into the intruder than 10 rounds of 5.7 or 9mm.
Your 10-round limit definitely negates one of the Five-seveN's big advantages, but the OP was only asking about confidence in the 5.7x28mm as a caliber. As long as you're dumping 10 rounds into an attacker, though, there would be no difference between 5.7x28mm and 10mm (or any other pistol caliber).

Bhobbs
11-03-2011, 9:47 AM
That was a typo. The videos show that high quality 5.7x28mm is indistinguishable from 9x19mm in ballistic gelatin.




Your 10-round limit definitely negates one of the Five-seveN's big advantages, but the OP was only asking about confidence in the 5.7x28mm as a caliber.

The 10 round limit negates the advantages of most pistols. The Glock 20 holds 15 rounds of 10mm. The Five Seven holds 20 of 5.7. I would still choose the Glock 20. In reality, I will probably never face off with guys wearing armor. That alone negates the entire point of the Five Seven.

BT927
11-03-2011, 9:51 AM
In reality, I will probably never face off with guys wearing armor. That alone negates the entire point of the Five Seven.
Assuming that is true (which it isn't, necessarily), you can still stack any comparable pistol against the Five-seveN and find that it is much lighter, recoils less, shoots flatter, carries more ammunition, and has killed just as consistently in verifiable shootings.

MrSlippyFist
11-03-2011, 9:54 AM
That alone negates the entire point of the Five Seven.

I used to hold the same opinion. But I can put 10 rounds of 5.7 on target more accurately and faster than any other pistol I own. That is worth more to me than any preconceived notion about over-penetration, under-penetration, 'stopping power', etc., etc. Love it or hate it, it will continue to be my most accurate pistol until someone makes something better.

guns_and_labs
11-03-2011, 9:57 AM
While we're on the subject of hunting, here are a few animals (posted elsewhere by various people) taken with the caliber:


The 160-pound hog in the first two pictures was dropped with one round of SS197SR (not sure about the hog in the third picture).

The 182-pound deer in the last picture was dropped from 70 meters with one round of SS197SR through the lungs/heart.



I also have taken pigs with the FiveseveN, quite successfully, using EA ammunition, with both head shots and torso shots putting the pigs down. Personally, I think the performance on pigs is relevant to SD use, and I've seen adequate penetration and tissue damage to conclude that the 5.7x28 out of a FiveseveN is adequate for self-defense.

I've also tested EA ammunition on a leg roast from Safeway (bone-in), both clad in two layers of denim and in a retired ballistic vest (but not both denim and the vest, which I probably should have). Somehow, a leg roast seems more relevant than ballistic gelatin, though harder to standardize. The observed penetration and damage was also compelling evidence to me to conclude that the 5.7x28 out of a FiveseveN is adequate for self-defense.

Personally, I keep a FiveseveN at the house, loaded and ready. But I also keep a shotgun, a bullet-buttoned OLL, and a .45acp, all of which I think are adequate for their purposes. I don't carry a FiveseveN in California, as it is not on the agency's approved list, but I have carried it out of state on occasion. Whilst hunting, I tend to a 10mm or a .44RemMag, though, as I think they are superior to the FiveseveN for defense against bears, wolves, and mountain lions -- though I suspect the FiveseveN might work on mountain lions just fine. [And before anyone goes OT, I don't kid myself that either a 10mm or .44 RemMag are adequate against a big bear. This is back-up, as I would usually be carrying a .300 WinMag or .300 RUM, too.]

Jimmy310
11-03-2011, 11:06 AM
Wow, I am really shocked that the poll is fifty fifty (about) right now.

Really thought I might be alone on this one...

I think I will get this as a range and HD gun for the GF... with the intent of hijacking it for myself.

In that case, just dros it in your name (in case you guys break up). I assume you guys live together. Even if you didn't live together if she has a HSC, she can borrow it for up to 30 days.

Fishslayer
11-03-2011, 11:12 AM
It's still a .22...

JeremyS
11-03-2011, 11:16 AM
I really don't understand how this debate is raging on. The OP wanted to know if you could be confident with the 5.7x28 caliber, and I think hundreds of dead people in Mexico shows that it is not only highly lethal, but it does stop people right where they stand at a very high rate. We've all heard plenty of stories of people shot multiple times with every handgun caliber out there and surviving, or dying at a later time, or continuing to fight for a while before succombing to their wounds. I'm sure this happens with 5.7 also, but I'll be darned if there aren't literally hundreds of instances in Mexico where the people didn't make it one single step.

I don't understand how so many of you can just write that off as somehow being invalid. It's hundreds of real people shot by 5.7 caliber -- all of that out of the pistol, btw -- and dying nearly instantaneously from it. The caliber works. OBVIOUSLY.

I don't have anything chambered in 5.7 and don't really have a horse in this race. I don't know if 5.7 is better than X handgun caliber (and I'm not butt-hurt because I have a 9mm and there are better calibers out there in the world), but I darn sure know that it's effective based on the massive number of real world shootings. You people act as though you invented the 9mm Para, 10mm, .45 ACP, whatever, and have to defend it against newcomers and every other alternative. It's weird. Choose whatever the heck you want and just because yours works doesn't mean the others dont. Oy.

nrakid88
11-03-2011, 12:03 PM
Wow,

figured this thread would be dead by now.

I still think that the 9mm will be my normal pistol, and a .22lr my girll's normal pistol. Then for the more cool stuff, a 9x25 for me, and a 5.7 for her.

Buffman
11-05-2011, 9:20 AM
I really don't understand how this debate is raging on. The OP wanted to know if you could be confident with the 5.7x28 caliber, and I think hundreds of dead people in Mexico shows that it is not only highly lethal, but it does stop people right where they stand at a very high rate. We've all heard plenty of stories of people shot multiple times with every handgun caliber out there and surviving, or dying at a later time, or continuing to fight for a while before succombing to their wounds. I'm sure this happens with 5.7 also, but I'll be darned if there aren't literally hundreds of instances in Mexico where the people didn't make it one single step.

I don't understand how so many of you can just write that off as somehow being invalid. It's hundreds of real people shot by 5.7 caliber -- all of that out of the pistol, btw -- and dying nearly instantaneously from it. The caliber works. OBVIOUSLY.

I don't have anything chambered in 5.7 and don't really have a horse in this race. I don't know if 5.7 is better than X handgun caliber (and I'm not butt-hurt because I have a 9mm and there are better calibers out there in the world), but I darn sure know that it's effective based on the massive number of real world shootings. You people act as though you invented the 9mm Para, 10mm, .45 ACP, whatever, and have to defend it against newcomers and every other alternative. It's weird. Choose whatever the heck you want and just because yours works doesn't mean the others dont. Oy.

+1.. I don't think anyones ever tried to claim the 5.7x28mm round is somehow any better than any other pistol round. Various instances with any calibers have shown their effectiveness and or ineffectiveness.

B!ngo
01-11-2012, 4:53 PM
I have become a 5.7 fan as well, and plan to move from 9mm to 5.7 (pistol and PS90) soon. Principally for the reasons Deadon cites. It's not outrageously priced as some would say (though more than 9mm and .223). It's light, easy to carry and reduces the number of rounds I choose to deal with. Re the vest penetration thing, I don't factor it at all. The civilian version of the round is not steel-cored and thus not designed to be penetrating. I don't worry about vested home invaders (well, in my neighborhood they may be wearing 3-piece Canali's) in the least. But sharing a round between pistol and rifle, no substantial recoil, decent range, and significant geek factor (sorry, that counts for me, I admit it) all affect my choices.
Additionally, these cartridge comparisons threads always escalate because they are complicated and situational. The physics that affect performance is heavily multi-dimensional and are affected by what you're trying to optimize for. In fact, it's been published that the 5.7 bullets 'tumble' and can create quite a protoplasmic mess, but do not have the mass to penetrate walls, furniture, and the like so they are less risky in home situations. It all becomes an impossible argument.
Finally, for me the fact that FN's designs are completely ambi- makes them perfect for a left-handed person like myself.
B

Im a 5.7 fan. Shoots straight, no recoil, I can get it for about 20.00 a box on sale, I also reload it.
If something ever happens a 1000 rounds is pretty light to carry. If anything ever did happen then I guess if I owned 30 and 50 round mags it would be a big deal.

DRAB_81
01-11-2012, 5:59 PM
NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

WHY...
WON'T...
YOU...
DIE ???

N8TEN30
01-11-2012, 7:15 PM
I am super accurate with .45ACP and will always appreciate its stopping power, but the limited magazine capacity is a problem. I waited years to buy my five-seven, mainly because it looks like a pretty gun started eating an ugly one and never finished. After getting it however, and being able to take advantage of the full 20 round magazine capacity, nothing else compares to having a small rifle round in the palm of your hand. With the low recoil and light weight pistol frame, it'd be easy to score a head shot through the eye socket. The way that round tumbles, it would only take one round to get the job done....leaving a nice exit wound out the back, because at 2050 fps, it WILL go all the way through. And then, I'll know I still have 20 shots left (20+1). Thats a comforting feeling. You can see with my avatar pic, I'm pretty much ready to take on at least 100 home invaders or Zombies at any moment. :)

For all the 45ACP voters, I hear you.....and agree with your decision.....because I too would find a reason to dislike the Five-Seven, if I could only experience HALF of its potential. Cheers!

Bobby Hated
01-11-2012, 7:19 PM
how does the 5.7 do in the shoot your neighbor department?

my guess is not good.

Arson
01-11-2012, 7:39 PM
how does the 5.7 do in the shoot your neighbor department?

my guess is not good.

Every caliber falls into that category