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ScottsBad
10-09-2011, 5:58 PM
AS OF TODAY I'M DONE WITH ONLY A COUPLE OF ITEMS LEFT TO DECIDE ON. I'VE ORDERED EVERYTHING AND I APPRECIAT EVERYONES INPUT HERE IS WHAT I CHOSE.

1. Armalite LPK, Troy Ambi safety
2. Battlecomp 1.0 - You guys made me do it.
3. LMT buffer tube - I'm picky about my buffer tubes.
4. Wolff standard carbine buffer spring
5. Spike's ST-T2 Buffer - basically an H buffer
6. Noveske QD end plate
7. Geisselle SSA - I bit the bullet and got a nice trigger
8. Rail - Well, I haven't found what I like yet. I like the tube style, but want a contiguous top rail. Unsure...
9. Magpul CTR stock - Hey I'm used to it
10. Still haven't decided on optics, but it wil probably be a 1-4x or 1-6x.
And I got a BCM Gunfighter charging handle.
Everything else I have already.

Thanks for your help!
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I'm just about to build another AR, and I'm selecting parts.

Maybe the forum can comments on parts selection. What would you choose? Am I making good or bad selections?

I'm starting with an already purchased BCM SS 16" mid-length 5.56 upper with a standard front sight, a BCM bolt/carrier and a BCM/Troy rear sight, no rail or hand guard (yet) as a starting point. In addition, I have a stripped Noveske N4 lower that Noveske gave me a long time ago. I want to keep this build as reliable yet light as possible.

So I need quite a few pieces and I'm trying to get some value out of my purchases. So, I need the following:

1. Lower Parts Kit - I need milspec quality, but I want a good trigger. I was thinking about a Daniel Defence kit, but I don't necessarily need the trigger or grip.

2. I need a compensator - I was thinking about a Rainier Arms XTC.

3. Buffer Tube (for adjustable stock) - I was thinking LMT, But they cost a mint.

4. Buffer spring - ? a CS spring, but which?

5. H buffer - Spikes Tactical ST-T1 or ST-T2? Anybody know about these?

6. End Plate - Noveske - I'm pretty firm on this.

7. Trigger - Looking for a quality trigger? Any screaming deals out there? I have a Geissele on another rifle, but they are pricey...If I have to bite the bullet and hand over the $ I will, but...

8. Rail - Currently thinking about the NEW Troy BattleRail Alpha, but they made it so you have to buy a 13" to fit on a mid-length an eleven won't work if you want the integrated front sight, but this adds weight. What do you think?

9. Stock - I was thinking Magpul CTR to keep the weight down, but there are lots of types out there. Anybody got any (light weight) favorites?

10. I'm still mulling over my optics needs. I prefer variable scopes starting at 1X, but I may depart from that. Leupold has the VX-R and VX-R Patrol in 1-4X. I own a couple Trijicon Accupoints, but they are pretty expensive these days. Then there is Vortex and SWFA has the new SS 1-4x with illumination (a little pricey).

But the red dots look interesting. I have an EOTech so I know what those are like, but I've never owned an Aimpoint (they have a reasonable Patrol version now).

Burris has a cool new armored mount for their Fast Fire II, it is called an AR-F3, looks cool and light, but Burris and 4 moa dot?

The Lucid HD-7 looks cool, but I haven't seen any reviews, help?

Anyway, thank you in advance for any help. I'll try to respond quickly, but it may take a day+.
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Arrived 10/12
Basis for build:
https://by1.storage.live.com/items/52FAAA3B05164F39!457:Scaled1024/BCM%20UPPER.jpg?

donking
10-09-2011, 7:02 PM
Here is one option
1) gessile SSA trigger
2) Battlecomp
3) CTR kit
4) CTR kit
5) CTR kit
6) CTR kit
7) gessille SSA
8) Noveske
9) CTR kit
10) Eotech XPS3-0

jetspeedz
10-10-2011, 9:12 AM
Everyone will give you a different opinion my suggestion is to look around and keep reading.

The rule of thumb is buy cheap pay twice in most situations, but not all so keep that in mind.

ScottsBad
10-10-2011, 9:45 AM
Here is one option
1) gessile SSA trigger
2) Battlecomp
3) CTR kit
4) CTR kit
5) CTR kit
6) CTR kit
7) gessille SSA
8) Noveske
9) CTR kit
10) Eotech XPS3-0

1. Does Geissele make a lower parts kit? That would be cool.

2. I see a lot of folks are hot on Battlecomp, since I don't understand what the big fizz is reagarding Battlecomp. Is it just the new cool looking thing or does it really perform that much better? I guess I'll have to do some reading. The Rainier is basically a cheaper PWS.

3. I don't really like the kits too much, I bought a kit for a different build and discovered the tube and spring was crap. The LMT tube has a very smooth coating with teflon in it. Which makes it quiet. But I'm open to other ideas.

4. Yeah, I like the SSA, I have one on one of my rifles, but I was hoping there was something new or a better value. I was wondering if the SSA-E was worth the extra $30.

10. I'll think about the XPS, my problem is that I don't like the EOTech magnifier (I have one), I thought about an Aimpoint magnifier and a LaRue magnifier mount, but beyond the cost they are heavy. Has anone found a really good inexpensive magnifier that they like?

21SF
10-10-2011, 10:05 AM
1. Spike's enhanced lower parts kit.
2. JP tactical comp (OMG) or Surefire MB556k
3-5. CTR stock kit
6. Noveske?
7. Try the one in the spikes kit. If you dont like ill buy it.
8. whatever, spikes BAR, Daniel Defense, Centerion......
9. see 3-5
10. aimpoint

ScottsBad
10-10-2011, 11:34 AM
Everyone will give you a different opinion my suggestion is to look around and keep reading.

The rule of thumb is buy cheap pay twice in most situations, but not all so keep that in mind.

Thanks, that's exactly the type of feedback I'm looking for. Nice videos BTW, keep up the good work, you could replace NutNFancy in no time.

I realize that I'll get all different opinions THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WANT. I did not know that the MI hand-guard was that good. You may have made me change my mind about MI and specifically that particular free-float tube. The only question I had: Is the barrel nut steel or aluminum?

As for the muzzle brake, I just skimmed your piece, because I know a fair amount about muzzle brakes/flash hiders, the difference, the advantages, Etc. But I appreciate your feed back and I can see that what you wrote would be excellent info for a noob. I think I've decided to go with a muzzle brake/flash hider combo. They are not perfect as flash hiders, but ARE effective as brakes. I have four firearms with PWS tips, a .308, two 5.56s, an an AK. They are very effective but expensive (IMO).

So I ran across the Rainier Arms XTC for less than $60 and thought I might see if anyone else has tried it? Muzzle flash is not important at the range, but if ever the SHTF being blinded by a muzzle flash at night is a bad buzz.

Video-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmgekatB1fI&feature=player_embedded
Link-
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1684


I'll also check out the Battlecomp, I'll reserve judgement, but it just looks like the new proverbial Supermodel, every-one's got a woody for it until the next one comes along.

If AKs can get by with a $10 slant brake, why should a muzzle brake cost $150?

I've seen the Mega trigger for sale here and there, but never understood why they didn't just throw in a hammer, so I don't have to worry about incompatibility. Yea, looks are nice, but it's not a big deal for me. I like the adjust-ability, but I always worry the adjustments might loosen up, even with loctite. I might give it a try on a different build.

Again, I don't understand the cost of these fire control systems. I know that consistency requires precision machining, but now with the new computer controlled machining, Wire EPDM and stuff. They should be able to crank out HARDENED steel precision triggers at a reasonable price.

Everyone knows the design of the AR trigger sucks and the only trigger I know of that really changes the AR trigger game is the trigger Mickulek uses sometimes, the AR Gold trigger at $280 (Too rich for me).

http://www.americantrigger.com/

Thank you again for your input it was very helpful.

ScottsBad
10-10-2011, 12:31 PM
1. Spike's enhanced lower parts kit.
2. JP tactical comp (OMG) or Surefire MB556k
3-5. CTR stock kit
6. Noveske?
7. Try the one in the spikes kit. If you don't like ill buy it.
8. whatever, spikes BAR, Daniel Defense, Centerion......
9. see 3-5
10. aimpoint

Hey, thank you for the feedback. I took a look at the Spike's kit. Sounds great, I have not tried the Ergo grip, but lots of folks like them. It's nice they included the KNS kit.

It's funny you mentioned this kit because a couple weeks ago I bought this Spikes trigger group (nickle-boron) just to see what it looks like, and maybe try it on one of my guns. Have you tried it or know someone who has?

I'll keep this Spike's kit at the top of my list for now.
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/lower-kit-spikes-enhanced-parts-kit-p-422.html

I know the JP is a very good muzzle device for competition. I'll probably not have a suppressor so the Surefire is not necessary for me, but thanks for the feedback.

Where is everyone finding this quality CTR stock kit? The last one I bought stank. The buffer tube was poorly machined, and the spring probably cost two dollars. There is a big difference in buffer tubes and springs especially.

Noveske? Noveske QD receiver end plate. http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=rec-qdep&cat=164&page=1&search=&since=&status=

8. whatever, spikes BAR, Daniel Defense, Centerion......
No, whatever doesn't help. Not all free-float systems are equal. Weight, durability, comfort, flexibility and quality. If my fore end comes loose I'll throw it through the manufacturer's window. I want to know what you've experienced.

Yeah, Aimpoint...so which one do you use? How about some convincing details.
Still thanks for the input.

Justintoxicated
10-10-2011, 12:36 PM
1. Does Geissele make a lower parts kit? That would be cool.

2. I see a lot of folks are hot on Battlecomp, since I don't understand what the big fizz is reagarding Battlecomp. Is it just the new cool looking thing or does it really perform that much better? I guess I'll have to do some reading. The Rainier is basically a cheaper PWS.

3. I don't really like the kits too much, I bought a kit for a different build and discovered the tube and spring was crap. The LMT tube has a very smooth coating with teflon in it. Which makes it quiet. But I'm open to other ideas.

4. Yeah, I like the SSA, I have one on one of my rifles, but I was hoping there was something new or a better value. I was wondering if the SSA-E was worth the extra $30.

10. I'll think about the XPS, my problem is that I don't like the EOTech magnifier (I have one), I thought about an Aimpoint magnifier and a LaRue magnifier mount, but beyond the cost they are heavy. Has anone found a really good inexpensive magnifier that they like?

My DB Premium works alright, but I don't have an eotech or aimpoint to compare it with. It's probably heavy compared to those though I would guess. I have it mounted to a Larue FTS mount.

jetspeedz
10-10-2011, 12:49 PM
Glad i can help, in terms of the barrel nut it is aluminum to cut down on the weight.

I agree about pricing on a lot of this stuff and machining, myself i run the JP and Timney trigger.

If i can be of any help shoot me a PM or email me.

Good luck on your build sounds like your on the right track. :thumbsup:

Thanks, that's exactly the type of feedback I'm looking for. Nice videos BTW, keep up the good work, you could replace NutNFancy in no time.

I realize that I'll get all different opinions THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WANT. I did not know that the MI hand-guard was that good. You may have made me change my mind about MI and specifically that particular free-float tube. The only question I had: Is the barrel nut steel or aluminum?

As for the muzzle brake, I just skimmed your piece, because I know a fair amount about muzzle brakes/flash hiders, the difference, the advantages, Etc. But I appreciate your feed back and I can see that what you wrote would be excellent info for a noob. I think I've decided to go with a muzzle brake/flash hider combo. They are not perfect as flash hiders, but ARE effective as brakes. I have four firearms with PWS tips, a .308, two 5.56s, an an AK. They are very effective but expensive (IMO).

So I ran across the Rainier Arms XTC for less than $60 and thought I might see if anyone else has tried it? Muzzle flash is not important at the range, but if ever the SHTF being blinded by a muzzle flash at night is a bad buzz.

Video-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmgekatB1fI&feature=player_embedded
Link-
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1684


I'll also check out the Battlecomp, I'll reserve judgement, but it just looks like the new proverbial Supermodel, every-one's got a woody for it until the next one comes along.

If AKs can get by with a $10 slant brake, why should a muzzle brake cost $150?

I've seen the Mega trigger for sale here and there, but never understood why they didn't just throw in a hammer, so I don't have to worry about incompatibility. Yea, looks are nice, but it's not a big deal for me. I like the adjust-ability, but I always worry the adjustments might loosen up, even with loctite. I might give it a try on a different build.

Again, I don't understand the cost of these fire control systems. I know that consistency requires precision machining, but now with the new computer controlled machining, Wire EPDM and stuff. They should be able to crank out HARDENED steel precision triggers at a reasonable price.

Everyone knows the design of the AR trigger sucks and the only trigger I know of that really changes the AR trigger game is the trigger Mickulek uses sometimes, the AR Gold trigger at $280 (Too rich for me).

http://www.americantrigger.com/

Thank you again for your input it was very helpful.

Don29palms
10-10-2011, 2:27 PM
The Lucid HD7 is bulky and heavy and chicom.

21SF
10-10-2011, 2:35 PM
Hey, thank you for the feedback. I took a look at the Spike's kit. Sounds great, I have not tried the Ergo grip, but lots of folks like them. It's nice they included the KNS kit.

It's funny you mentioned this kit because a couple weeks ago I bought this Spikes trigger group (nickle-boron) just to see what it looks like, and maybe try it on one of my guns. Have you tried it or know someone who has?

I'll keep this Spike's kit at the top of my list for now.
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/lower-kit-spikes-enhanced-parts-kit-p-422.html

I know the JP is a very good muzzle device for competition. I'll probably not have a suppressor so the Surefire is not necessary for me, but thanks for the feedback.

Where is everyone finding this quality CTR stock kit? The last one I bought stank. The buffer tube was poorly machined, and the spring probably cost two dollars. There is a big difference in buffer tubes and springs especially.

Noveske? Noveske QD receiver end plate. http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=rec-qdep&cat=164&page=1&search=&since=&status=

8. whatever, spikes BAR, Daniel Defense, Centerion......
No, whatever doesn't help. Not all free-float systems are equal. Weight, durability, comfort, flexibility and quality. If my fore end comes loose I'll throw it through the manufacturer's window. I want to know what you've experienced.

Yeah, Aimpoint...so which one do you use? How about some convincing details.
Still thanks for the input.


Yes i have tried the NB battle trigger i love it.

Its not super light or anything but has zero creep, and crisp break. its battle trigger.

The JP is amazing, i just put one a carbine and the recoil is nill.

i have spike's BAR rail 12" on my ST-15, solid fairly light (not as light as dd) and has a slightly bigger diameter than others, which i like.

The aimpoint i have is the comp ml3 i believe or ml2, love it.

Hey, your in danville not far from me, if you want to meet at the range so you can shoot all the above let me know.

someR1
10-10-2011, 2:39 PM
for the optics, you can't go wrong with Leupold. Good stuff.

Noah3683
10-10-2011, 2:42 PM
1. Spike's enhanced/Daniel Defense/Stag/RRA/Armalite.
2. Battlecomp
3. Vltor
4. Vltor
5. Any
6. Noveske
7. RRA 2 stage.
8. Daniel Defense Omega X or Lite Rail, Centurion C4
9. Vltor Imod, CTR, MOE
10. Aimpoint PRO

ScottsBad
10-10-2011, 2:57 PM
My DB Premium works alright, but I don't have an eotech or aimpoint to compare it with. It's probably heavy compared to those though I would guess. I have it mounted to a Larue FTS mount.

I guess you like that LaRue FTS mount? It looks tits to me. I was thinking of getting one and just putting a DB or Vortex or something in it because Aimpoint wants a kidney for theirs.

ScottsBad
10-10-2011, 3:02 PM
The Lucid HD7 is bulky and heavy and chicom.

But do you have actual experience with it? Even I don't use it on this build I might try it on another. Looks heavy.

jetspeedz
10-10-2011, 3:10 PM
I'll give you my opinion on optics as well if it will help. If you have an Eotech you already have the best Red dot in my opinion with 1 MOA. If you want magnification you will not be happy with anything other than a good scope. If you want more magnification and don't want to give up your red dot try a Primary arms 7x magnifier with flip mount. With the 7x and 1MOA reticle of eotech you can hit 100 yards under 5" groupings easy but any farther the reticle as with any other red dot will cover the target pretty good. The Lucid is Chinese made as well if you didn't know.

If you want to go with a good scope i can recommend some great scopes and mounts for them as well.

ScottsBad
10-10-2011, 3:30 PM
Yes i have tried the NB battle trigger i love it.

Its not super light or anything but has zero creep, and crisp break. its battle trigger.

The JP is amazing, i just put one a carbine and the recoil is nill.

i have spike's BAR rail 12" on my ST-15, solid fairly light (not as light as dd) and has a slightly bigger diameter than others, which i like.

The aimpoint i have is the comp ml3 i believe or ml2, love it.

Hey, your in danville not far from me, if you want to meet at the range so you can shoot all the above let me know.

If you are close by we should hit the range. I usually go to Livermore or ...I can't remember the name (old age I guess)...on Hwy 4 past Concord. The guy at Chabot bugs me so I don't go there often. I'll put you on my PM list.

So what I might do is get the Spike's kit (I hope all the parts are good) and then I can always swap stuff out if I need to.

The JP brake sounds amazing, I'll have to consider it, but for now I want some flash suppression also.

OK, I looked up the Spike's fore (http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/spikes-tactical-12-bar-rail-p-448.html) and it looks cool, I like the QD sockets machined in.

There is also a SAR model, not sure at this point what the difference is. I do some more reading on both. Again I like the QD sockets built in. I'll take a look at the installation manual that usually tells me a lot.

SAR 12" -> http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/spikes-tactical-12-sar-rail-p-637.html

From what I've heard I really like the idea of the Aimpoints for their ruggedness and simplicity. I've not owned one yet, but I've seen a few.

Thanks for your input.

21SF
10-10-2011, 4:03 PM
Yea im a member at USI in concord close to baypoint.

I have most of the stuff that your undecided on, I go almost every weekend.

Since i just finished my Saiga ill def be there this weekend, let me know.

You can see:

BAR Rail
NB trigger
Aimpoint
JP break
Also im sure you will want the NB BCG as well.....

ScottsBad
10-10-2011, 4:37 PM
I'll give you my opinion on optics as well if it will help. If you have an Eotech you already have the best Red dot in my opinion with 1 MOA. If you want magnification you will not be happy with anything other than a good scope. If you want more magnification and don't want to give up your red dot try a Primary arms 7x magnifier with flip mount. With the 7x and 1MOA reticle of eotech you can hit 100 yards under 5" groupings easy but any farther the reticle as with any other red dot will cover the target pretty good. The Lucid is Chinese made as well if you didn't know.

If you want to go with a good scope i can recommend some great scopes and mounts for them as well.

Yeah, I couldn't live with more than a 2 moa dot. That's why I like the EoTech a lot. But Aipoint makes a hell of a rugged unit. Anyway, after thinking about it I think I'm going with 1-4X .

I currently own a TR24R and a TR21R 1-4 and 1.25-4. They are great, but the older TR21 has some coke bottle at 1.25. I noticed that the prices have gone up quite a bit on the TR24.

I'm looking for 1-4 or 1-6 range with 30mm tube (and maybe a 2-7) with illuminated reticle. I want to keep the weight down, but the ruggedness up (I know they are in conflict). The reticle should be tilted toward CQB use.

Here are the reasonably priced ones I've read a little about that I might be interested in:

Leupold VX-R and VX-R Patrol - VX-R 2-7X 33mm Might be cool

Leupold VX-6 - 1-6X I've not studied this, it not out yet NOT CHEAP

Vortex - Probably a Viper PST 1-4X the Razor is too pricey

Trijicon Accupoint - Probably another TR24 NOT CHEAP

SWFA SS 1-4X - This looks very interesting. NOT CHEAP
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-1-4x24-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P48372.aspx

So what do you think?

ScottsBad
10-10-2011, 4:41 PM
Yea im a member at USI in concord close to baypoint.

I have most of the stuff that your undecided on, I go almost every weekend.

Since i just finished my Saiga ill def be there this weekend, let me know.

You can see:

BAR Rail
NB trigger
Aimpoint
JP break
Also im sure you will want the NB BCG as well.....

OK, I'll see what's up with the family this weekend before I commit.

Yeah, I already bought a BCM bolt carrier for this build, and I was wondering if the hard NB hammer would wear well on a standard bolt. I guess it would, but it might be interesting to know if the difference in hardness would be an issue.

donking
10-10-2011, 9:26 PM
1. Does Geissele make a lower parts kit? That would be cool.

2. I see a lot of folks are hot on Battlecomp, since I don't understand what the big fizz is reagarding Battlecomp. Is it just the new cool looking thing or does it really perform that much better? I guess I'll have to do some reading. The Rainier is basically a cheaper PWS.

3. I don't really like the kits too much, I bought a kit for a different build and discovered the tube and spring was crap. The LMT tube has a very smooth coating with teflon in it. Which makes it quiet. But I'm open to other ideas.

4. Yeah, I like the SSA, I have one on one of my rifles, but I was hoping there was something new or a better value. I was wondering if the SSA-E was worth the extra $30.

10. I'll think about the XPS, my problem is that I don't like the EOTech magnifier (I have one), I thought about an Aimpoint magnifier and a LaRue magnifier mount, but beyond the cost they are heavy. Has anone found a really good inexpensive magnifier that they like?

1) don't know, their web site probably has more info.

2) Yes, I have BC and Phantom, the BC is better and is much more well behaved than other muzzle devices, though they are more expensive. A buddy has the SJC titan and it is horrible to be next him when he is shooting. Guess it would be worse to be in front, but that is given for all muzzle devices.

3) The kits from Palmetto and Spikes have top notch components (mil-spec tube, heavy buffer, etc) that you are specifying except maybe for the endplate. Check them out.

4) the SSA-E seems too light for a battle rifle. YMMV

10) I like the field of view on the Eotech better than the Aimpoint.

jetspeedz
10-11-2011, 8:29 AM
Yeah, I couldn't live with more than a 2 moa dot. That's why I like the EoTech a lot. But Aipoint makes a hell of a rugged unit. Anyway, after thinking about it I think I'm going with 1-4X .

I currently own a TR24R and a TR21R 1-4 and 1.25-4. They are great, but the older TR21 has some coke bottle at 1.25. I noticed that the prices have gone up quite a bit on the TR24.

I'm looking for 1-4 or 1-6 range with 30mm tube (and maybe a 2-7) with illuminated reticle. I want to keep the weight down, but the ruggedness up (I know they are in conflict). The reticle should be tilted toward CQB use.

Here are the reasonably priced ones I've read a little about that I might be interested in:

Leupold VX-R and VX-R Patrol - VX-R 2-7X 33mm Might be cool

Leupold VX-6 - 1-6X I've not studied this, it not out yet NOT CHEAP

Vortex - Probably a Viper PST 1-4X the Razor is too pricey

Trijicon Accupoint - Probably another TR24 NOT CHEAP

SWFA SS 1-4X - This looks very interesting. NOT CHEAP
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-1-4x24-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P48372.aspx

So what do you think?

My opinion is this, if your going to use your rifle for CQB stick with the Eotech don't wast your money on a 1-4x tactical scope. You will end up wanting something with much higher magnification later. Get a cheap 7x or 5x or 3x flip magnifier and that will give you an idea the magnification. If you don't like it sell the magnifier and flip mount. Primary Arms has great prices and even better customer service. If you are going to spend upwards of $700 on a tactical 1-4x scope you might as well get something with some real magnification and power. Your ability to use the 1-4x scope in a tactical situation will put you at a disadvantage over a simple red dot where you can have both eyes open in my opinion. You really have to try it for yourself to see what I'm talking about. If you have a local store go there and see if they have a magnifier or a 1-4x scope. It all depends on what your goal is with the rfile. good luck

ScottsBad
10-12-2011, 1:00 PM
My opinion is this, if your going to use your rifle for CQB stick with the Eotech don't wast your money on a 1-4x tactical scope. You will end up wanting something with much higher magnification later. Get a cheap 7x or 5x or 3x flip magnifier and that will give you an idea the magnification. If you don't like it sell the magnifier and flip mount. Primary Arms has great prices and even better customer service. If you are going to spend upwards of $700 on a tactical 1-4x scope you might as well get something with some real magnification and power. Your ability to use the 1-4x scope in a tactical situation will put you at a disadvantage over a simple red dot where you can have both eyes open in my opinion. You really have to try it for yourself to see what I'm talking about. If you have a local store go there and see if they have a magnifier or a 1-4x scope. It all depends on what your goal is with the rfile. good luck

Actually, the Accupoints are designed with BAC Bindon Aiming Concept(both eyes open) in mind and they do that very well especially the TR24R. I like the TR24 almost as well as my EOTech 557 for close up (Well, nothing is as fast as an EOTech IMHO), except in, say, a small room.

I already have an EOTech Gen2 3x magnifier (Curiously, the Gen1, which I also own, has better optics IMO). But what most people don't realize is that you loose both eyes open aiming when you employ the magnifier (At least it doesn't work for me). The eye relief with a magnifier is very short and the eye box is unforgiving.

So, I guess I have to disagree with you, I think EOTechs are great alone, but, I keep the magnifier with the rifle "just in case" I need both.

Maybe you should try a TR24 or one of the other good quality 1-4x, or other scopes made for CQB with magnification. As I said the TR24 is terrific for CQB, less so past 100 yards. This is why a lot of 3 Gunners use them.

Yeah, I'd like to have more magnification on an AR I think a 1-6x would be about optimum, but until recently I'd have to spend a lot to get a good quality 1-6x. A lot is $1500 and up. If Trijicon made a 1-6x I'd buy one today, that's why I'm interested in the Leupold VX-6 1-6x.

Anyway, thanks for the input, you helped me make up my mind, it gonna be a variable for me.

jetspeedz
10-12-2011, 1:10 PM
Fair enough, it sounds like you have the Eotech magnifier options already so you know what that does and doesn't do well. It just really depends on what you will do with the AR. For me the Eotech up to 100 yards was good with a 7x magnifier but anything over the reticle was just too big. The eye relief did not bother me but now that i know what good eye relief means with a quality high power scope I would think hard about going back to a red dot.I understand you want a quality 1-6x/1-4x scope i spend just as much on a quality scope. I have no experience with a BAC scopes so if you think that is the kind of shooting you want to do than I'm sure your on the right track.

Shellshocker66
10-12-2011, 1:15 PM
off topic :)

ScottsBad I love your avatar! One of my favorite movies! Now I can go back and actually read the rest of your post..

As far as your LPK, Palmetto offers a very nice LPK with options on the trigger for great prices. http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-parts-kits.php, even if you don't see a fire control group you like the $29 kit without it is fine.

ScottsBad
10-12-2011, 1:19 PM
1) don't know, their web site probably has more info.

2) Yes, I have BC and Phantom, the BC is better and is much more well behaved than other muzzle devices, though they are more expensive. A buddy has the SJC titan and it is horrible to be next him when he is shooting. Guess it would be worse to be in front, but that is given for all muzzle devices.

3) The kits from Palmetto and Spikes have top notch components (mil-spec tube, heavy buffer, etc) that you are specifying except maybe for the endplate. Check them out.

4) the SSA-E seems too light for a battle rifle. YMMV

10) I like the field of view on the Eotech better than the Aimpoint.

Thanks, YOU GUYS ARE REALLY HELPING OUT. I mean that. OK, to respond to your message;

2. Well, I really like the PWS and I think the Raineir XTC looks OK, but I did some research, on BattleComp and I'm beginning to come around. I like the compensation and the flash is well controlled, maybe better than the PWS. But what I really like if it is true is that it doesn't direct the blast back as much as the PWS. So, I'm still doing research.

3. Yeah, well I did buy a CTR kit from one of the vendors you mentioned and it was the one I was talking about in a previous post that included a, uh, let's just say, a less than optimal quality buffer tube.

Don't get me wrong, I like both of these vendors and I am customer, but the kit was not up to my standards.

Anyway, yesterday I ordered an LMT buffer tube which has an amazing teflon like coating on it that I'd never seen on another other buffer tube (hope the one I ordered is as good as the one I have on another rifle).

I also, bought a Wolff buffer spring, and a Spike's ST-T2 buffer.

I'm picky about buffer tubes and springs, because they have a lot to do with how smoothly the rifle cycles, IMHO.

Anyway, thanks for the input. It is all appreciated.

wash
10-12-2011, 1:38 PM
I have a 1.5-4.5x24 scope on an AR and I was able to easily hit a target at 600 yards.

My rifle has a Sabre Defense chrome lined barrel so it's not really accurate enough for head shots at that range but center of mass is no problem.

I doubt an Eotech with a magnifier would work as well at long range. It might have an edge at CQB but at 1.5x with an illuminated reticle, mine does both eyes open aiming just fine and probably weighs less than an Eotech with magnifier. I know it cost less.

You might want to buy a regular LPK and try a 15 minute trigger job on it. It can make a bad trigger tolerable and if you luck out or swap standard parts to get a nicer trigger, it can make it quite good for a service rifle. The cost isn't high and at the worst you just wind up with a spare FCG.

Nathan Krynn
10-12-2011, 3:20 PM
Take with a grain of salt as some of these things are opinions or experience that may be different then others.

Personally I most people go about building ar's backwards. When customers come into my shop and ask me to build them a rifle and they are not sure what they want I ask a simple question. What do you want this rifle to do for you?

Then work backwards from that. I don't suggest specific parts first.

So when someone says they want the rifle for home defense but want to hit out to 600 yards because they read a 5.56 is rated out to that so they need a scope. I then ask how does that scope help in your living room because that is home defense, obviously it doesn't help. Some will say 3 gun riles can do that, I respond great how many matches have you shot in and do you think this is practical for home defense?

So chose what you want the rifle to do and build backwards from that. So if a part doesn't help what you want it to do then it is a wasted part. Most people just throw parts on a rifle and end up with a hodge podge frankingun. Then do it again and again until they have several AR's with no specific purpose. If you were to look at my AR's you would tell exactly what it is for.

If your answer was to shoot 600 yards then I say build a DMR type build with a bipod, a urx3 or a pri tube or another solid rail (most are not) and scope it.

If it was a 3 gun rifle then a 1-4x max and make it a race gun with adjustable gas block, awesome brake and such.

EDIT: There are also hunting rifles with their own requirements. Like a deer/hog gun I would use a med-light profiled barrel and keep it light with a 1-4x or a 3-9x max but a prairie dog gun a bull barrel and make it heavy with a larger magnification.

Other then that I suggest irons and or aimpionts with out magnification. Because other then that you don't need magnification. You can hit center mass pretty freaking far with little training and lets face it other then the first two types I listed that's what the rifle is for. Other then the first two as well they are normally for defense and close range, with that they are meant for standing, kneeling and prone but mostly run and gun oh my god I am going to die type shooting. I see a lot of people scope their 14.5" AR and sit at a bench and never shooting moving or standing, well that's unrealistic and the scope is wasted as that is not the purpose of the gun. If you join a carbine club with match's or take training classes you will learn these lessons fast.

The whole FOV difference is not true for me as you should be shooting both eyes open with eotecs and aimpoints and with both eyes open I see no difference. Aimpoints are so much more reliable and battery life is so much better. Government agencies just use so many more eotech due to they are much cheaper. I have never seen an Aimpont go down but have seen countless eotechs fail from poor battery conections or die from the auto shut off leaving a shooter dumb founded or the battery just plain dies.

Same for triggers like someone said the SSA/E is too light for AR's, I agree for the most part. Except they are perfect for DMR rifles. So it goes back to "does this part help with the rifles task" if not then chose another part.


Now certain parts don't really fall into this. Like your sling, I say use the same as your comfortable with and stick to that. Then the same for your sling adapter if single point, keep them the same that way when you pick up a rifle it feels comfortable and your are trained on it. Like I use ASAP plates and the magpul sling. To an extent stocks fall into this. I like VLTOR so my carbines are this and my hunting rifle has a A1 VLTOR. Now I do have some basic Ar's that use stock M4 stocks and cqb 101 3 points and A2's with the same sling. I think you see a trend, keep it similar so you are used to it no matter which rifle you pick up.

Long story short I have come to these conclusions from too many customers to count and from my personal experience. Don't just get hodge podge rifles, give each rifle a task and stick to that.

The all in one AR's to me are jack of all trades masters of none.

wash
10-12-2011, 3:38 PM
I'll agree.

My rifle is essentially a K.I.S.S. build with selected upgrades, MOE handguards, ACE Skeleton stock Troy CQB pistol grip, Vltor gunfighter charging handle, Magpul MBUS BUIS, an Arms Profile folding front sight and my scope.

It's mostly a range toy and does fine in that respect but it's not useless for CQB if I have a fresh CR2032 in the scope.

It doesn't need a free float rail, VFG, bipod, or QD silencer mount.

ScottsBad
10-12-2011, 3:41 PM
for the optics, you can't go wrong with Leupold. Good stuff.

Yeah I like Leupold too. But, there are so many good scopes out there. The Vortex Viper PST 1-4x, seems to get very good reviews for a scope at its price point.

I'd like to get the new VX-6 1-6x, its a little pricey for my budget on this rifle...but I want to see reviews first anyway.

ScottsBad
10-12-2011, 3:43 PM
My DB Premium works alright, but I don't have an eotech or aimpoint to compare it with. It's probably heavy compared to those though I would guess. I have it mounted to a Larue FTS mount.

Does your magnifier have internal adjustments?

ScottsBad
10-12-2011, 4:24 PM
1. Spike's enhanced/Daniel Defense/Stag/RRA/Armalite.
2. Battlecomp
3. Vltor
4. Vltor
5. Any
6. Noveske
7. RRA 2 stage.
8. Daniel Defense Omega X or Lite Rail, Centurion C4
9. Vltor Imod, CTR, MOE
10. Aimpoint PRO

Thank you for your input, I'm trying to respond to everyone, but if I miss your post it is not intentional. I'm also forgetting who I have responded to.

1. OK, I don't believe all parts kits are created equal, but some of your suggestions sound good.

2. OK, OK, OK, OK, (just kidding) I have been looking into Battlecomp and I may go with there. But I think they are way over priced. So, I'm considering it.

3-5 Last night I pulled the trigger on a LMT buffer tube, Spikes Buffer and Wolff buffer spring.

6. I'm pulling the trigger on a Noveske end plate today.

7. Two things, I'm probably going with Geissele SSA (cry once), but I already have a Spike's Nickle Boron trigger sitting here in a package, so I may try the Spike's first and If it doesn't light my fire I'll put it on a different build.

8. I like the DD lite rail, and I'm looking at others. But I own a rifle with a full quad rail, and I have a rifle with a VTAC Extreme Battlerail (Troy). For my needs I like the Battlerail. I have big hands, but I like the small diameter of the Battlerail.

Jetspeedz suggested the MI SS which is similar and looks pretty solid, and I'm also interested in the new Troy Battlerail Alpha. Weight is important and I don't care for large diameter rails.

I'll take a look at your suggestions.

9. I think I'm gonna go with the CTR, I have an ACR sitting in my parts bin, but it is too heavy. I like the Vltor and the SOPMOD, but the CTR is just so light and simple.

10. I like the Aimpoint Pro and Eotech XPS, but I'm probably going to go with a variable illuminated scope 1-4X or 2-7x or 1-6x.

Thanks again for your input.

ScottsBad
10-12-2011, 4:40 PM
off topic :)

ScottsBad I love your avatar! One of my favorite movies! Now I can go back and actually read the rest of your post..

As far as your LPK, Palmetto offers a very nice LPK with options on the trigger for great prices. http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-parts-kits.php, even if you don't see a fire control group you like the $29 kit without it is fine.

Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I was inspired by the movie "Mars Attacks" and its satirical portrayal of gullible people who want to believe that the invading Martians are peaceful and want to help the people of Earth, until they begin slaughtering everyone in sight while simultaneously saying, "We come in peace."

So I made the avatar and you seem to get it. Thanks.

I like Palmetto and I'll check it out. If I can get a custom LPK with a good trigger I may go for it.

ScottsBad
10-12-2011, 5:09 PM
I have a 1.5-4.5x24 scope on an AR and I was able to easily hit a target at 600 yards.

My rifle has a Sabre Defense chrome lined barrel so it's not really accurate enough for head shots at that range but center of mass is no problem.

I doubt an Eotech with a magnifier would work as well at long range. It might have an edge at CQB but at 1.5x with an illuminated reticle, mine does both eyes open aiming just fine and probably weighs less than an Eotech with magnifier. I know it cost less.

You might want to buy a regular LPK and try a 15 minute trigger job on it. It can make a bad trigger tolerable and if you luck out or swap standard parts to get a nicer trigger, it can make it quite good for a service rifle. The cost isn't high and at the worst you just wind up with a spare FCG.

Thanks for your input. How big was the target? Just kidding, you must be a pretty good shot, better than I am anyway. My intended range is CQB to 400 yards, anything above that is not necessary for me, but would be candy.

Yeah, I agree that an EOTech with a magnifier does limit you a bit, BUT it really depends on the skill of the operator IMHO. There are guys that shoot way better than I can, in my old age, that might disagree with you.

Triggers - That is a good point, I know about the 15 minute trigger job. I have done probably 6 trigger jobs, which isn't very many. I was able to improve 4 of them, by using ceramic stones and different CS springs. I destroyed two trigger groups while experimenting. The rest worked fine, but I don't want to use modded triggers in my goto rifles. I don't have that much confidence in my trigger jobs and so I've replaced them, but now I have spares.

Thanks for your input.

ScottsBad
10-12-2011, 6:20 PM
Take with a grain of salt as some of these things are opinions or experience that may be different then others.

Personally I most people go about building ar's backwards. When customers come into my shop and ask me to build them a rifle and they are not sure what they want I ask a simple question. What do you want this rifle to do for you?

Then work backwards from that. I don't suggest specific parts first.

So when someone says they want the rifle for home defense but want to hit out to 600 yards because they read a 5.56 is rated out to that so they need a scope. I then ask how does that scope help in your living room because that is home defense, obviously it doesn't help. Some will say 3 gun riles can do that, I respond great how many matches have you shot in and do you think this is practical for home defense?

So chose what you want the rifle to do and build backwards from that. So if a part doesn't help what you want it to do then it is a wasted part. Most people just throw parts on a rifle and end up with a hodge podge frankingun. Then do it again and again until they have several AR's with no specific purpose. If you were to look at my AR's you would tell exactly what it is for.

If your answer was to shoot 600 yards then I say build a DMR type build with a bipod, a urx3 or a pri tube or another solid rail (most are not) and scope it.

If it was a 3 gun rifle then a 1-4x max and make it a race gun with adjustable gas block, awesome brake and such.

EDIT: There are also hunting rifles with their own requirements. Like a deer/hog gun I would use a med-light profiled barrel and keep it light with a 1-4x or a 3-9x max but a prairie dog gun a bull barrel and make it heavy with a larger magnification.

Other then that I suggest irons and or aimpionts with out magnification. Because other then that you don't need magnification. You can hit center mass pretty freaking far with little training and lets face it other then the first two types I listed that's what the rifle is for. Other then the first two as well they are normally for defense and close range, with that they are meant for standing, kneeling and prone but mostly run and gun oh my god I am going to die type shooting. I see a lot of people scope their 14.5" AR and sit at a bench and never shooting moving or standing, well that's unrealistic and the scope is wasted as that is not the purpose of the gun. If you join a carbine club with match's or take training classes you will learn these lessons fast.

The whole FOV difference is not true for me as you should be shooting both eyes open with eotecs and aimpoints and with both eyes open I see no difference. Aimpoints are so much more reliable and battery life is so much better. Government agencies just use so many more eotech due to they are much cheaper. I have never seen an Aimpont go down but have seen countless eotechs fail from poor battery conections or die from the auto shut off leaving a shooter dumb founded or the battery just plain dies.

Same for triggers like someone said the SSA/E is too light for AR's, I agree for the most part. Except they are perfect for DMR rifles. So it goes back to "does this part help with the rifles task" if not then chose another part.


Now certain parts don't really fall into this. Like your sling, I say use the same as your comfortable with and stick to that. Then the same for your sling adapter if single point, keep them the same that way when you pick up a rifle it feels comfortable and your are trained on it. Like I use ASAP plates and the magpul sling. To an extent stocks fall into this. I like VLTOR so my carbines are this and my hunting rifle has a A1 VLTOR. Now I do have some basic Ar's that use stock M4 stocks and cqb 101 3 points and A2's with the same sling. I think you see a trend, keep it similar so you are used to it no matter which rifle you pick up.

Long story short I have come to these conclusions from too many customers to count and from my personal experience. Don't just get hodge podge rifles, give each rifle a task and stick to that.

The all in one AR's to me are jack of all trades masters of none.

Well, thanks for the input, and your advice was useful, more useful for some than others. I would defintely like to get more training. And that will help me hone my needs in specific circumstances. I am not really a complete noob, but I do look at things differrently than some.

My purpose here is to learn more from others about their specific equipment purchases and anything else I can gather. I did not say what my specific use for the rifle would be in the first post, but you (as an experienced gunsmith) can read between the lines from the way I framed the inquiry. But I will lay it out for you.

Specifically, a home defence rifle for a suburban SHTF situation where targets may be between 100ft and 400 yards (not specifically room clearing, where shotguns or pistols are my preference). (EDIT: I think very few shots will be beyond 300 yards.) Ammunition would be either bulk 55 grain 5.56 or bulk 62 grain 5.56 (SS109), no fancy ammunition. Obviously, the rifle needs to be very very reliable. Absolute accuracy is secondary to reliability and ease of maintenance. Because the rifle may be used by others, simplicity, uniformity, and parts interchangeability are also critical. The rifle must be kept light. Optics must be reliable and removable, while providing the widest possible flexibility within the stated range. Any optic should have a clean easy to point reticle with illumination for low light situations. Batteries must be easy to obtain and plentiful. Rifle must have high quality back up sites. (Add: Rifle must help maximize effectivness less experienced shooters)

I'm thinking of adding an etched or otherwise visible reticle that can be used when the batteries or electronics die to the requirements.

When I say home defense I'm talking about a rifle that can be used indoors, but whose primary purpose is as stated. I believe that shotguns and pistols are better for strict indoor home defense.

Funny, none of my firearms are "Frankenguns" I am very careful to match components. I won't put a 5-12X scope on a 5.56 rifle with a 16" lite barrel. But I do try to make my rifles flexible, because the intended "final" purpose is an unpredictable situation. A rifle that can handle as many situations as possible as well as possible is my goal. And to me a flexible rifle is also a fun to shoot rifle, and I enjoy working on them and building them.

There won't be any designated marksmen supporting an organized and trained group in a SHTF scenario. Yes, a DMR is a useful rifle in the scenario I described, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. A DMR is a Military construct, but you can build a rifle for longer range situations without using the Military construct. Your "jack of all trades and a master of none" comment is true within the military construct, but in the SHTF scenario things get a little less cut and dried. I'm not saying that a rifle with mismatched parts makes sense, but there is room for thoughful differrences.

I appreciate your input about the SSA-E trigger, I did not realize it was that light. I have a SSA on one of my similarly configured rifles that does not seem too light to me, but I would be interested in your input on this.

Yeah, I understand what you are saying with regard to Aimpoint. I hear this over and over. But I question the assertion that you have seen "countless" EOTech failures. Maybe a few, depending on how many you have actually seen in operation in person. This is always what I hear from Aimpoint loyalists, that EOTechs are really unreliable, but I don't hear so much of that from people who actually own them.

One big problem with Aimpoint, for me, is the reticle. A 2, or worse, 4 moa dot is big to me and I just don't like the single dot reticle as much as I do the EOTech standard reticle. Also, the EOTech reticle is amazing with both eyes open shooting. Now, maybe I should be picking a scope that has the highest possible reliability. So maybe Aimpoint, but why not a Trijicon ACOG, which is arguably the most reliable red dot on the planet.

One of the other things I like with a variable scope is that the scope magnification can be used like a monocular to see out into the distance. But the biggest drawback with variable scopes is that there are more things that go wrong mecanically if they get beat up. They are less rugged.

I don't believe that 5.56 rifles are the only thing that should be in your stash, I like .308 semi-auto battle style rifles and bolt action .308 and .30-06 rifles.

I also have a short 16" bull-barrel AR set up with an A2 stock and a more specialized buffer spring and buffer, with a NM trigger. It has a little more optic on it (2-7X). It isn't a high end build but with good ammo it is very accurate yet can be handled easily. Unfortuantely, my oldest Son has taken this one home because he loves it, so I guess I don't have it (hmmm). Maybe I'll build another one.

ALL, of my pistol grip style rifles use the SAME sling (VTAC two point) set up EXACTLY the same way. This makes sense to me.

Stocks, I don't necessarily see your point on picking a single type of stock for compatibility, maybe I misunderstood you, but it doesn't seem to fit with your statement about specialized guns for each task. I like longer reach stocks with a comfortable cheek rest on rifles that are made for more accuracy and will sit primarily on a bipod or in a rested position, and adjustable stocks on rifles that are...I don't know how to explain it, but on the move.

I've been shooting since I was 6, my best friend and I were trained for a full week by an active duty Marine Sgt. when I was a young teen, just the two of us (great experience). This is where I learned about all the shooting positions, some theory, breathing and trigger techniques, cleaning and maintenance, etc. My dad and my grandfather taught me a lot about shooting (on his farm), and I was a fowl hunter for years. I haven't had formal tactical training and I hope to find the time to do so. I try to get out and shoot away from ranges, but its a chore in Comiefornia. So, while I shoot regularly and I read a lot I can always learn more. So I'm open to any suggestions. But I'll tell you, I may or may not agree with some dogmatic positions that people hold.

Thanks for your input.

ScottsBad
10-13-2011, 12:59 PM
This arrived yesterday: This will be the base for the build. I will replace or modify the front sight to make a low profile gas block. To modify it, you pound out the taper pins and gas pin. Cut off the "A" portion off the sight, and then round off the top of the sight so it will fit under whatever rail you are using. Paint or coat it. Then reinstall it and pound the pins back in. Don't get paint or coating in the pin holes when you are painting it.

OR make it easy on yourself and get a different gas block, its just that a pinned gas block seems a much better solution to me.

The A2 FH will be replaced as well.

This thing is quite beautiful in person. The bolt and carrrier are hard core, MPI and tested and comes with a spare extractor O ring. The bolt is dirty and obviously testfired as is the barrel. I'm trying to decide if I want to coat the barrel... Or maybe just blast it to take the shine off, or not. I also bought a rear BCM (Troy) sight. I have these on all my AR type rifles, I guess its just a bad habit to go with Troy sights.
https://by1.storage.live.com/items/52FAAA3B05164F39!457:Scaled1024/BCM%20UPPER.jpg?