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View Full Version : What is the legal status of an OLL w/o any mag button at all?


pacrimguru
10-09-2011, 3:08 PM
What is the legal status of an OLL w/o any mag button assembly at all? No BB, no regular button installed, no mag catch, no spring. The OLL lacks the ability to accept any kind of mag without those parts. With a collapsible stock and pistol grip but no upper, would it be in violation of CA laws?

rromeo
10-09-2011, 3:11 PM
Even with a standard mag release, it should not be illegal, as you could theoretically use it with a 22LR upper.

stix213
10-09-2011, 3:14 PM
If you had a centerfire upper on, I think it would be a problem since you could hold a mag in place while firing and detach it by just pulling it out without any tool. Rromeo is of course correct when no upper is on, or if you're running rimfire. IANAL

pacrimguru
10-09-2011, 3:14 PM
Even with a standard mag release, it should not be illegal, as you could theoretically use it with a 22LR upper.

if that's the case, then if a normally configured OLL is stored in the same case as a .223 upper but unattached, would there be constructive possession issues?

rromeo
10-09-2011, 3:15 PM
There is no constructive possession for CA assault weapons.

pacrimguru
10-09-2011, 3:17 PM
i see, thanks for the info.

1911su16b870
10-09-2011, 3:19 PM
No mag catch, spring and button would still be a detachable magazine.

Flying Sig
10-09-2011, 3:36 PM
How could it be "detachable" if it was never "attachable" in the first place? Please elaborate....

Bhobbs
10-09-2011, 3:38 PM
How could it be "detachable" if it was never "attachable" in the first place? Please elaborate....

Because it does not require the use of a tool to remove.

Fjold
10-09-2011, 3:45 PM
The law doesn't address attachable it only cares about detachable.

rromeo
10-09-2011, 3:51 PM
No mag catch, spring and button would still be a detachable magazine.

Irrelevant. There is no semiautomatic centerfire upper attached.

cmaynes
10-09-2011, 3:54 PM
then it would not be considered a firearm,- right?

Bhobbs
10-09-2011, 3:55 PM
then it would not be considered a firearm,- right?

The lower is the firearm. It wouldn't be a center fire rifle.

bohoki
10-09-2011, 7:43 PM
i too have thought of this it is a dead end

because are you planning to use a 10 round magazine or a 30 round magazine it is too ambigious

oldrifle
10-09-2011, 7:50 PM
Funny, I was thinking about this today. Pretty sure it doesn't matter until you put the upper on it. Since there's no constructive possession it doesn't matter if you have a centerfire upper that you intend to put on it.

hoffmang
10-09-2011, 8:04 PM
No centerfire upper, no banned semi auto centerfire rifle.

-Gene

santacruzstefan
10-09-2011, 8:38 PM
What if it was a complete centerfire rifle, but just without the mag catch? If the magazine couldn't be attached, then it also couldn't be detached (since "detachable" assumes it was attached in the first place). Not sure how useful this would be, having to hold the magazine just right/ risk misfeeds, but why wouldn't this be legal?

POLICESTATE
10-09-2011, 8:46 PM
Still able to insert it into the weapon, hold the mag in place with one hand while operating it with the other and then able to switch mags. I'm going to say at best it's a risky gray area, at worst it's a felony.

YMMV, IANAL

Librarian
10-09-2011, 8:51 PM
What if it was a complete centerfire rifle, but just without the mag catch? If the magazine couldn't be attached, then it also couldn't be detached (since "detachable" assumes it was attached in the first place). Not sure how useful this would be, having to hold the magazine just right/ risk misfeeds, but why wouldn't this be legal?

Wrong assumption.

A magazine-locked lower is not capable of accepting a 'detachable' magazine, because the lock forces the user to use a tool to disassemble the magazine from the gun. That remains true even when there is no magazine present.

santacruzstefan
10-09-2011, 9:19 PM
Wrong assumption.

A magazine-locked lower is not capable of accepting a 'detachable' magazine, because the lock forces the user to use a tool to disassemble the magazine from the gun. That remains true even when there is no magazine present.

I understand, but a rifle without a mag catch also can't accept a detachable magazine, right?

Purple K
10-09-2011, 9:49 PM
Without a magazine catch/spring/button it's not even a complete lower, it's just parts. Without an upper attached it's not even a complete rifle. Parts is parts.

Librarian
10-09-2011, 9:51 PM
If a mag could be inserted and somehow used, and then removed without using a tool, yes, it can accept a 'detachable' magazine.

If the magazine cannot be used to feed cartridges (because of a magazine latching problem), then the rifle/lower is somehow broken.

That particular condition might be legally benign. Other 'broken' states, such as multiple rounds fired from a semi-auto with only one activation of the trigger mechanism, are not benign.

bwiese
10-09-2011, 9:51 PM
There seems to be mixups above, with some people answering the right answer for wrong question.. so, clarifying the permutations:



for AR architecture, an OLL lower receiver - with any or all relevant 12276.1 PC 'features'
(pistol grip, telestock/folder stock, etc.) is neither semiautomatic, nor centerfire since no
upper is attached (and arguable not a rifle).

The presence or absence of the mag catch, BulletButton maglock or related inserted magazine
is irrelevant in this particular instance.
.
An assembled OLL semiautomatic centerfire rifle (i.e., this upper is attached to lower) with PC
12276.1 'characteristic features' present (pistol grip, telestock, flash hider, etc.) MUST have
a maglock a la BulletButton installed.

If such a rifle has NO mag catch installed, it is still entirely capable of accepting a 'detachable
magazine' per the 11 CCR 5469(a) regulatory definition, and the gun will even be somewhat
operational. Don't be stupid and do this.

Additionally, this configuration cannot use over-10-round magazines.
.
An assembled "featureless" semauto centerfire rifle (no 12276.1PC 'evil features' installed) can
have an ordinary mag catch or no mag catch at all. These configurations can use an over-10
round magazine - unless a maglock were installed (!!)
.
Rimfire rifles are generally not subject to the above.... however:

VERY IMPORTANT: if your rimfire rifle...
.

uses a standard 5.56/223 (and not 22LR) barrel;
no other mods besides a Ciener-style conversion (i.e, new special 22LR bolt carrier + 22LR mags);
has no BulletButton-style maglock;
.

... there is substantial risk that when the rimfire bolt assembly is removed, the gun may be regardable
as a 'Broken AW' (and not a disassembled 22LR).

There's already been losing court drama on "broken gun still is an AW" with bolt carrier removed, so don't
push the limits.

Disassembly/reassembly of this style rimfire rifle should involve taking the upper off first before removing
the 22LR conversion bolt assembly. Reassembly is the reverse, and the 22LR bolt assembly should be installed in
the upper before attaching the upper to the lower receiver. SEQUENCY IS IMPORTANT.

The above warning is not applicable for custom 22LR rimfire uppers that are readily determinable to be rimfire only.


.



.

killmime1234
10-09-2011, 10:19 PM
As it has been stated above in many ways, if it has a centerfire upper and "evil" features, it would be illegal.

Assuming we're talking about a firearm with evil features and a centerfire upper:

If you can remove the magazine from the receiver without a tool, regardless of your own definition of "detachable," it is illegal.

If you can remove the magazine from the receiver without a tool, regardless of whether or not it has a mechanism to retain it in the receiver, it is illegal.

Munk
10-10-2011, 12:11 AM
I believe the summary is: Check the flowchart. If it's not addressed, it's not relevant.

pacrimguru
10-10-2011, 1:18 AM
There seems to be mixups above, with some people answering the right answer for wrong question.. so, clarifying the permutations:



for AR architecture, an OLL lower receiver - with any or all relevant 12276.1 PC 'features'
(pistol grip, telestock/folder stock, etc.) is neither semiautomatic, nor centerfire since no
upper is attached (and arguable not a rifle).

The presence or absence of the mag catch, BulletButton maglock or related inserted magazine
is irrelevant in this particular instance.
.
An assembled OLL semiautomatic centerfire rifle (i.e., this upper is attached to lower) with PC
12276.1 'characteristic features' present (pistol grip, telestock, flash hider, etc.) MUST have
a maglock a la BulletButton installed.

If such a rifle has NO mag catch installed, it is still entirely capable of accepting a 'detachable
magazine' per the 11 CCR 5469(a) regulatory definition, and the gun will even be somewhat
operational. Don't be stupid and do this.

Additionally, this configuration cannot use over-10-round magazines.
.
An assembled "featureless" semauto centerfire rifle (no 12276.1PC 'evil features' installed) can
have an ordinary mag catch or no mag catch at all. These configurations can use an over-10
round magazine - unless a maglock were installed (!!)
.
Rimfire rifles are generally not subject to the above.... however:

VERY IMPORTANT: if your rimfire rifle...
.

uses a standard 5.56/223 (and not 22LR) barrel;
no other mods besides a Ciener-style conversion (i.e, new special 22LR bolt carrier + 22LR mags);
has no BulletButton-style maglock;
.

... there is substantial risk that when the rimfire bolt assembly is removed, the gun may be regardable
as a 'Broken AW' (and not a disassembled 22LR).

There's already been losing court drama on "broken gun still is an AW" with bolt carrier removed, so don't
push the limits.

Disassembly/reassembly of this style rimfire rifle should involve taking the upper off first before removing
the 22LR conversion bolt assembly. Reassembly is the reverse, and the 22LR bolt assembly should be installed in
the upper before attaching the upper to the lower receiver. SEQUENCY IS IMPORTANT.

The above warning is not applicable for custom 22LR rimfire uppers that are readily determinable to be rimfire only.


.



.



fantastic, thank you.