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hamheart
10-09-2011, 12:48 PM
where can i find a comprehensive guide on the legality of owning/ building an AR pistol?

EDIT: new question, is it legal to have an old A2 stock and buffer tube left over from an upgrade laying around if you own an ar pistol? or is that intent to build an sbr?

FeuerFrei
10-09-2011, 1:07 PM
Here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=390460)

Josh3239
10-09-2011, 1:09 PM
This thread pretty much covers it: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=484274&highlight=off+roster+ar+pistol

Basically what you need to know is that having a magazine outside the pistol grip on such a pistol does make it an AW so you will need to do a minor modification before owning it in most cases.

hamheart
10-09-2011, 1:21 PM
thanks, very informative.

MrPlink
10-09-2011, 3:16 PM
On a side note, its amazing how popular these have become (I have one myself)
just a few years ago it seemed like a total rarity that only the most determined people had, and now I see them in single shot form in tons of shops.

donking
10-09-2011, 4:22 PM
The bozos at some of the ranges still don't understand them. I was told today by the over-zealous LARGC RO that I couldn't shoot it on the 100 yard range because it didn't have a buttstock. I had just shot a 2" group and had shot it there many times over the past year without issue. Either they changed the rules or have some new jerks as ROs.

626Tony
10-09-2011, 4:45 PM
buy from atlantic arms great deals and CA friendly

hamheart
10-12-2011, 5:45 PM
bump for new question above.


also, does anyone else think there should be a sticky of ar/ak pistol legality facts?

Cyc Wid It
10-12-2011, 7:15 PM
The AW chart on the top of every page?

hamheart
10-12-2011, 7:21 PM
The AW chart on the top of every page?

AR/AK pistols dont always fit the flow chart, an example being that, even with a bullet button you couldn't have a fore grip

CSACANNONEER
10-12-2011, 8:02 PM
AR/AK pistols dont always fit the flow chart, an example being that, even with a bullet button you couldn't have a fore grip

The flow chart works fine for all semi auto handguns. True, even with a fixed magazine or even as a single shot with no magwell, it would be illegal to violate the NATIONAL firearms acts. But, the flow chart was set up to distingish between California AWs and non California AWs. It was never ment to be used as a guide to deal with machine guns, AOWs, SBRs or SBSs. Those are only legal with the proper paperwork and tax stamps. In other words, VFGs are generally ILLEGAL ON ALL HANDGUNS IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY! Why would you think that complying with Ca AW laws would exempt one from FEDERAL LAW?

hamheart
10-12-2011, 10:38 PM
The flow chart works fine for all semi auto handguns. True, even with a fixed magazine or even as a single shot with no magwell, it would be illegal to violate the NATIONAL firearms acts. But, the flow chart was set up to distingish between California AWs and non California AWs. It was never ment to be used as a guide to deal with machine guns, AOWs, SBRs or SBSs. Those are only legal with the proper paperwork and tax stamps. In other words, VFGs are generally ILLEGAL ON ALL HANDGUNS IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY! Why would you think that complying with Ca AW laws would exempt one from FEDERAL LAW?

True, I chose a bad example, better ones would be the fact that you have to buy an AR pistol with a single round sled, or that the buffer tube has to be perfectly cirular. My post wasn't meant to piss anybody off, just thought a sticky regarding legality would be helpful to keep posts like mine from clogging the forum, considering the growing interest in AR/AK pistols.

hamheart
10-12-2011, 10:55 PM
Anyway, my other question was if it was illegal to have an old stock and buffer tube in my house from a previous upgrade to my AR 15, while having an AR pistol in the same house? Or would having the old left-over stock assembly and the AR pistol in the same house be considered "intent to manufacture an SBR?"

donking
10-13-2011, 1:09 AM
Anyway, my other question was if it was illegal to have an old stock and buffer tube in my house from a previous upgrade to my AR 15, while having an AR pistol in the same house? Or would having the old left-over stock assembly and the AR pistol in the same house be considered "intent to manufacture an SBR?"

I like the idea of cheap insurance by having an extra inexpensive upper in the parts bin. For about $300 you are guaranteed to not be able to maufacture an SBR. :innocent:

It would probably also help if the castle nut on the pistol lower was well staked in two places. :sorcerer:

jgraham15
10-13-2011, 2:32 AM
AR/AK pistols dont always fit the flow chart, an example being that, even with a bullet button you couldn't have a fore grip

The flow chart works fine for all semi auto handguns. True, even with a fixed magazine or even as a single shot with no magwell, it would be illegal to violate the NATIONAL firearms acts. But, the flow chart was set up to distingish between California AWs and non California AWs. It was never ment to be used as a guide to deal with machine guns, AOWs, SBRs or SBSs. Those are only legal with the proper paperwork and tax stamps. In other words, VFGs are generally ILLEGAL ON ALL HANDGUNS IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY! Why would you think that complying with Ca AW laws would exempt one from FEDERAL LAW?


Actually per the ATF (see this letter - http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf) an AR pistol with a length over 26" and a VFG installed is not considered a pistol or an AOW. As soon as you add the VFG it becomes a Title 1 Firearm.

So per the CA DOJ it is considered a pistol but per the ATF it is considered a Title 1 gun and is legal to have a VFG installed as long as it's over 26" long.

This is why a good amount of the gun shops (around my area anyway) are selling the Franklin Arms Pistol with VFG installed.

Here is a pic of it
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh175/jg15photo/gun%20stuff/6988395e.jpg

h0use
10-13-2011, 6:08 AM
So I take it if the over all length is more than 26" it's ok to have a forward grip? That's from the tip of the barrel to the end of the buffer tube?

tacticalcity
10-13-2011, 6:13 AM
Anyway, my other question was if it was illegal to have an old stock and buffer tube in my house from a previous upgrade to my AR 15, while having an AR pistol in the same house? Or would having the old left-over stock assembly and the AR pistol in the same house be considered "intent to manufacture an SBR?"

You can use any buffer tube you want. Just don't have the slip-on/screw-on stock laying around or you could get nailed for constructive possession. This comes from an ATF opinion letter.

I've got the letter uploaded to my photobucket.com account filed under ATF and Legal Letters.

http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/ATF%20and%20Legal%20Letters/

CSACANNONEER
10-13-2011, 7:29 AM
Actually per the ATF (see this letter - http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf) an AR pistol with a length over 26" and a VFG installed is not considered a pistol or an AOW. As soon as you add the VFG it becomes a Title 1 Firearm.

So per the CA DOJ it is considered a pistol but per the ATF it is considered a Title 1 gun and is legal to have a VFG installed as long as it's over 26" long.

This is why a good amount of the gun shops (around my area anyway) are selling the Franklin Arms Pistol with VFG installed.

Here is a pic of it
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh175/jg15photo/gun%20stuff/6988395e.jpg

OK, I guess I should have clarified that I ment "handgunss capable of being concealed" instead of just "handguns". By legal definition a firearm with an OAL of +26" is not considered to be "capable of being concealed".

hamheart
10-13-2011, 7:35 AM
OK, I guess I should have clarified that I ment "handgunss capable of being concealed" instead of just "handguns". By legal definition a firearm with an OAL of +26" is not considered to be "capable of being concealed".

is that an AR pistol, or are you just happy to see me? haha

ke6guj
10-13-2011, 8:02 AM
AR/AK pistols dont always fit the flow chart, an example being that, even with a bullet button you couldn't have a fore gripnot sure what you mean by this. The flowchart does cover forward grips.

True, I chose a bad example, better ones would be the fact that you have to buy an AR pistol with a single round sled, or that the buffer tube has to be perfectly cirular. My post wasn't meant to piss anybody off, just thought a sticky regarding legality would be helpful to keep posts like mine from clogging the forum, considering the growing interest in AR/AK pistols.
The flowchart deals with the legality of the handgun as it sits there in front of you. It does NOT deal with roster or 922r issues, since they do not affect the legality of the item as it is currently configured.




Actually per the ATF (see this letter - http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf) an AR pistol with a length over 26" and a VFG installed is not considered a pistol or an AOW. As soon as you add the VFG it becomes a Title 1 Firearm.

So per the CA DOJ it is considered a pistol but per the ATF it is considered a Title 1 gun and is legal to have a VFG installed as long as it's over 26" long.

This is why a good amount of the gun shops (around my area anyway) are selling the Franklin Arms Pistol with VFG installed.
I do need to update the flowchart to cover the XO-26.

chead
10-13-2011, 8:29 AM
do need to update the flowchart to cover the XO-26.

I still don't really understand why the XO-26 isn't an AOW..

hamheart
10-13-2011, 5:33 PM
OK, I guess I should have clarified that I ment "handgunss capable of being concealed" instead of just "handguns". By legal definition a firearm with an OAL of +26" is not considered to be "capable of being concealed".
^^^
^^^
I still don't really understand why the XO-26 isn't an AOW..

Reductio
10-13-2011, 5:56 PM
I still don't really understand why the XO-26 isn't an AOW..

Because the ATF said so. =P