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hoffmang
10-08-2011, 2:58 PM
A new post today on the CGF Blog:

"Recently I got into a discussion with someone who had moved away from California. He asserted that all the litigation didn't matter and that we as civil rights supporters were not winning and, as usual, we Californians should just leave. I asked him an important question and it should be telling that he didn't answer that question publicly. I asked him how populous his supposed free state was. He privately replied that his new state's population was 3,800,000 (Oregon) and continued to accuse California gun rights supporters of being Baghdad Bob for saying that we're winning. There is no more serious case of Battered Gun Owner Syndrome or lack of understanding of what is actually going on in the US. Because I think this attitude may be a bit too common, I'm compelled to comment on it."

More here (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/blog/entry/battered-gun-owner-syndrome-and-the-fight-for-the-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms.html).

-Gene

Ubermcoupe
10-08-2011, 3:02 PM
You will know when I give up and believe that too when I stop coming here.



Having people with Battered Gun Owner Syndrome dishearten the quiet listening gun owner who shows up or supports these efforts with their pocket book does no one any good. (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/blog/entry/battered-gun-owner-syndrome-and-the-fight-for-the-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms.html)

Please keep up the great works guys. The progress we make (and advertise) here is why I hold out hope!

Connor P Price
10-08-2011, 3:05 PM
Gene, you've brilliantly illustrated the importance of the California movement. The idea that the constitutional minimum will be set by the most anti-gun states (arguably most influenced by California) is important not to lose sight of. That's why I'm always so amazed and proud when we have Calgunners from other states, or those who leave to other states but continue to support CGF. Those people get it. They understand the importance of the fight in California on a national level.

Dreaded Claymore
10-08-2011, 4:20 PM
Gene, you've brilliantly illustrated the importance of the California movement. The idea that the constitutional minimum will be set by the most anti-gun states (arguably most influenced by California) is important not to lose sight of. That's why I'm always so amazed and proud when we have Calgunners from other states, or those who leave to other states but continue to support CGF. Those people get it. They understand the importance of the fight in California on a national level.

Someone else beat me to it, as usual. What he said. Thank you, Gene, for explaining that the "what civil rights do blacks have?" Constitutional minimum wasn't set in Massachusetts and the weapon civil rights Constitutional minimum won't be set in Oregon.

G60
10-08-2011, 4:24 PM
I think something else should be said for one of my biggest peeves from out of staters, I'll paraphrase, "well it's your fault since you live in California and let anti gun politicians get elected in the first place, all you have to do is vote them out or leave"

trashman
10-08-2011, 4:28 PM
Nice post, Gene - captures why it's important for gunnies to continue to 'dole out hope' -

--Neill

yellowfin
10-08-2011, 4:40 PM
You should see the putrid flavors of BGOS that occur in NY.

SwissFluCase
10-08-2011, 4:42 PM
Gene,

I think you made the point as clear as anyone could have. I have been saying the same thing for years. Gun rights will be born out of the most restrictive states; why would the battle even need to be fought in Arizona?

I think there is a certain segment of gun owners that like to play the underdog, or the oppressed. They remind me a bit of the Al Sharpton followers. No matter what you do, "The Man" has his boot on your neck.

I have lived in California all my life. I have been all over the US and quite frankly, I like it better here. California is worth fighting for. I fully expect the residents of NYC, Chicago, MA, DC, and Hawaii to feel the same way. I am not ditching my friends, walking out on my business, and turning my life upside down so I can live in a state where my 2nd Amendment rights haven't been restricted *yet*.

I am not moving. Let the anti-gun people move out of California if they don't line guns. I hear Oregon is nice...

Finally, I am sick of the weak and cowardly loudly denouncing California gun owners because they won't move. What have they done to further 2nd Amendment rights? Give money? Make calls? Teach people to shoot? Hello? I have a suggestion to them: Get out of our state, we don't want you here. Goodbye.

Gene, thank you again, and I will thank the rest of the team and the "right people" again, for fighting for our rights. I am behind you 100%, along with many others.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

HowardW56
10-08-2011, 4:43 PM
A new post today on the CGF Blog:

"Recently I got into a discussion with someone who had moved away from California. He asserted that all the litigation didn't matter and that we as civil rights supporters were not winning and, as usual, we Californians should just leave. I asked him an important question and it should be telling that he didn't answer that question publicly. I asked him how populous his supposed free state was. He privately replied that his new state's population was 3,800,000 (Oregon) and continued to accuse California gun rights supporters of being Baghdad Bob for saying that we're winning. There is no more serious case of Battered Gun Owner Syndrome or lack of understanding of what is actually going on in the US. Because I think this attitude may be a bit too common, I'm compelled to comment on it."

More here (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/blog/entry/battered-gun-owner-syndrome-and-the-fight-for-the-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms.html).

-Gene

:iagree: :King::twoweeks::79: :grouphug:[

Dreaded Claymore
10-08-2011, 4:55 PM
:iagree: :King::twoweeks::79: :grouphug:[

I LOL'd

goober
10-08-2011, 5:03 PM
An extremely important point, exceedingly well stated. Thank you, Gene.

microwaveguy
10-08-2011, 5:05 PM
Thanks Gene

This is the reason that I donate to CGF for their awesome work

I am pretty sure of whom you had the exchange, since I have had the same exchange with him on a different board ........ the Baghdad Bob comment gave it away. What these people don't remember is the 1994 AWB was created because of the CA ban. A line in the sand has to be drawn and someone needs to stay here and clean up this mess :D

odysseus
10-08-2011, 5:24 PM
Great writeup and argument!

oepirate
10-08-2011, 5:45 PM
Thank you so much. As someone currently visiting a state with significantly less restrictive gun laws I could get the idea to want to move. Things like this remind me that no, in fact, I in it for long haul to win for California, and maybe the country as a whole. Off to the donate page for me...

Tack
10-08-2011, 5:45 PM
Gene, without Calguns, California would have the de facto gun ban of New Jersey. Both are may issue. We need to fight it here and win.

Kavey
10-08-2011, 6:10 PM
A new post today on the CGF Blog:

"Recently I got into a discussion with someone who had moved away from California. He asserted that all the litigation didn't matter and that we as civil rights supporters were not winning and, as usual, we Californians should just leave. I asked him an important question and it should be telling that he didn't answer that question publicly. I asked him how populous his supposed free state was. He privately replied that his new state's population was 3,800,000 (Oregon) and continued to accuse California gun rights supporters of being Baghdad Bob for saying that we're winning. There is no more serious case of Battered Gun Owner Syndrome or lack of understanding of what is actually going on in the US. Because I think this attitude may be a bit too common, I'm compelled to comment on it."

More here (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/blog/entry/battered-gun-owner-syndrome-and-the-fight-for-the-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms.html).

-Gene

I became involved in fighting to protect our "civil rights" back in 1982 when Proposition 15 reared its ugly head. I still live in the same semi-rural small city that I lived in during that battle. In fact, I was the contact person for the campaign against prop. 15 in my area and brought people from the NRA, CRPA and H.L. Richardson's newly formed Gun Owners of California to lecture on the subject in our junior high school's auditorium (try securing any public school auditorium today for such a pro-gun event).

Anyway, it was during the months of fighting Proposition 15 that I first became familiar with the type of gun owner you (Gene) appear to be describing in your post. I'll call them Negative Do Nothing Always Complaining Gun Owning A------s.

You'll find these clowns hanging around just about every gun store and range. But, you'll rarely see them at any event promoting our Second Amendment rights.

Whenever one of them learns that I keep up-to-date on the never ending war to preserve our rights they'll ask me what's going on. If the news that I have is good, they'll smile and then turn around and continue pestering the poor gun store owner or clerk about locating reloading dies for some long obsolete cartridge. Even though the particular dies in question don't exist, these clowns will require every catalog in the store be scoured and the owner or clerk also access every appropriate web site on the store's computer before they give up. But, in about two months, they'll be back to repeat the process because they know those dies just have to exist somewhere! Sorry, I was starting to rant myself. I have just seen this type of thing sooooo many times in my local gun store.

If the news that I have is not so good, like the current bills sitting on the governor's desk, they'll start stomping around and begin cursing. They'll start demanding to know why somebody doesn't do something. I'll interrupt their tirade and politely ask if they belong to the NRA, Calguns, Second Amendment Foundation, CRPA or any other similar organization. The answer I usually get goes something like this: "I used to belong to the NRA but all they did was pester me for money. Those other outfits are the same, they're only in it for the money."

I'll go on by asking them if they'll write some letters, make a few phone calls or, if they have a computer, perhaps send a few emails? I'll usually get an answer that goes something like this: "Those damn politicians are nothing but a bunch of two-faced lying b------ds. None of that stuff does any good. But, I'll tell you what, you write a letter and I'll sign it, OK?"

They'll always end up leaving the store, the range, the bar or wherever the tantrum has occurred, mumbling something about it all being useless. No matter what, they're going to come and take our guns and it's no use fighting them. The last thing you'll hear often has something to do with their "cold dead hands."

Over the past 30+ years I have run into more than a dozen (probably many more) of these jerks. In the never ending battle to protect our Second Amendment Rights, they contribute nothing spiritually or monetarily to the cause and only perpetuate discouragement and disillusionment among those new to the shooting sports. I wish they would all leave the state.

Milsurp Collector
10-08-2011, 6:57 PM
I asked him an important question and it should be telling that he didn't answer that question publicly.

Gene Gene Gene :facepalm:

What was the very first sentence in the private message I sent you?

In order to avoid hijacking the thread I'll respond this way. :)

The only reason I didn't respond publicly to the question you posted in the Heller II thread was because people were complaining that the thread was being hijacked, and they were right. That's why I responded by private message, because your question was irrelevant to the thread. What that should "tell" you is that I was trying to be considerate to the other people posting in that thread, nothing more.

Skimming over your blog, you seem to imply that the gun owners who left are the "battered gun owners". Wrong. No one is battering us in the free states. It is the people who live under bad gun laws who are suffering from "battered gun owner syndrome". :rolleyes:

dantodd
10-08-2011, 7:02 PM
In fact, I was the contact person for the campaign against prop. 15 in my area and brought people from the NRA, CRPA and H.L. Richardson's newly formed Gun Owners of California to lecture on the subject in our junior high school's auditorium (try securing any public school auditorium today for such a pro-gun event).


that"s a really good idea.

RKV
10-08-2011, 7:25 PM
Shall issue is the new normal don't you know.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-50r9cwYGfWU/To2XLGncecI/AAAAAAAAAa8/D636VRf-3CI/s640/image001.png

http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/10/every-picture-tells-story.html

California's legislature just hasn't figured it out. Yet.

Wernher von Browning
10-08-2011, 7:49 PM
Finally, I am sick of the weak and cowardly loudly denouncing California gun owners because they won't move. What have they done to further 2nd Amendment rights? Give money? Make calls? Teach people to shoot? Hello? I have a suggestion to them: Get out of our state, we don't want you here. Goodbye.

Or, how about the retailers in other states who tell us the same thing? "I won't ship to California because I need to punish all you stupid Californians. If you don't like it, why don't you just move to a Free State?"

I think such retailers should merit special attention...

SwissFluCase
10-08-2011, 7:58 PM
Or, how about the retailers in other states who tell us the same thing? "I won't ship to California because I need to punish all you stupid Californians. If you don't like it, why don't you just move to a Free State?"

I think such retailers should merit special attention...

Like a blacklist? I'm game.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

aileron
10-08-2011, 8:47 PM
I think we will remain unsupported and unloved by a lot of gun owners the country over till we take home a few more big wins. Then it will start to sink in.

We're the front line to their freedoms, er... Civil Rights.


Great write up Gene.

hoffmang
10-08-2011, 9:03 PM
I became involved in fighting to protect our "civil rights" back in 1982 when Proposition 15 reared its ugly head. I still live in the same semi-rural small city that I lived in during that battle. In fact, I was the contact person for the campaign against prop. 15 in my area and brought people from the NRA, CRPA and H.L. Richardson's newly formed Gun Owners of California to lecture on the subject in our junior high school's auditorium (try securing any public school auditorium today for such a pro-gun event).

Thanks for continuing to fight.

-Gene

Shenaniguns
10-08-2011, 9:17 PM
Awesome Gene!

Ubermcoupe
10-08-2011, 9:53 PM
You should see the putrid flavors of BGOS that occur in NY.

I do. :(

Cali-Shooter
10-08-2011, 9:57 PM
Those that can't wait, leave. Well, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Paladin
10-08-2011, 10:17 PM
Like it or not, we in the PRK, will continue to get grief IMO, until: (1) we get Shall Issue for the entire state, (2) the AWB goes away, (3) the hicap ban goes away, or (4) the HG roster goes away.

Of those 4, I'm guessing we'll win #1 first. But since that won't happen for 9 months at best (I won't say what the worst could be since the "Heller 5" aren't immortal and Obama is still in office....), I just try to encourage those who are still residents that our time will come, but not for about a year or two.

If the Sunshine Initiative gets more major urban anti counties to liberalize issuance before then, that will encourage us in the PRK, but I doubt whether it will change the mind of out-of-state pro-RKBA folk. Only a decisive, MAJOR court win for the ENTIRE state will do that.

Soldier on!

freonr22
10-08-2011, 10:26 PM
Sig line below. Newly added. " we are winning, we will keep winning, we are right" agreed this is the place that sets the regs for the rest of the country. We have the tenacity.

Wernher von Browning
10-08-2011, 10:54 PM
Like a blacklist? I'm game.


"So the other [insert ethnic group] shot him."

I've brought it up before. There seems to be little interest. If anything, I'll be pilloried by fanboys for [insert name of retailer]. My take is, we have the power of the purse, and 13 percent of the country's population. If enough Calgunners refuse to buy ANYthing (including items they have no trouble shipping) from retailers who unfairly discriminate against us, we'll get some attention (and, conversely, support those who support us).

Following CA law, no matter how reprehensible the law, is one thing; refusing to ship where others do ship, out of ignorance or laziness or sending a "message," is something else.

Blacklist -- I'll start off with Sportsman's Guide. As schlocky an operation as you could ever hope to find.

You must have "Swiss Flu" -- me too. I was going to buy some GP11 from this outfit
http://www.fivesevenammo.com/shop/page4.html
but he won't ship to Orange County. There is absolutely no restriction on ammo shipment to OC. He also won't ship ammo to "Loyo County." I'm still looking for "Loyo County." (When these people copy boilerplate, they sometimes mistype).

Samco Global Arms (Stand back! Fanboy stampede!)
https://www.samcoglobal.com/FAQ.html
(at least they can spell "Yolo")

Others? How about a formal list, as a sticky? It should have not only the name of the retailer, but WHAT he/she won't ship, to WHERE, with links and documentation (don't want to let it turn into a screw-your-competition page where retailers blackball each other). A table or spreadsheet format would be best.

Conversely, a list of recommended dealers.
I will say...
Midway
Graf's
Seven Springs Armory (first refused to ship to Ventura, then informed himself -- http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=425769&highlight=fivesevenammo )
JoeBob Outfitters (good black rifle stuff, and offers a Calguns discount)

Kavey
10-08-2011, 11:04 PM
Thanks for continuing to fight.

-Gene

It's what I live for.

Window_Seat
10-08-2011, 11:17 PM
Gene;

Thanks, and I agree, but at the same time, I can understand the frustration.

I admit that in the past, I have made statements like "This state sucks, it's full of communists, and people vote based on their iPods, iPads, iPhones, iBoobs, iButts, iEtc..."

Then the next day, I would have been well rested with a sandwich and a nap, and feel kinda dumb for posting what I posted, and go back to look at the responses, and in some cases, the thread or post has been deleted... :laugh:

Otherwise, I made myself a promise sometime back... That if I ever decided to get involved in any kind of "cause" where "civil rights" are the main issue, IT would be with a group that has leverage that is organized and is capable of winning a battle against the Government. I found that group in late 2007, and we have made lots of progress since then. And I haven't been banned yet... :p

I have friends, relatives and interests in Oregon, which is a VERY FREE state in terms of "the Second Amendment Right", and I've been awfully tempted, but I can't go anywhere just yet, and don't plan to because I have 2 main interests, one is here at home, and the other is here in my heart.

I want my LTC, but I'm willing to wait until "the right time" because I know that there is an effort to "make it happen".

For anyone who expects any person to just up and leave it all because the Government here hates gun rights... It's the same as throwing the white flag during the first lap of the Daytona 500.

Erik.

ccmc
10-09-2011, 3:27 PM
The idea that the constitutional minimum will be set by the most anti-gun states (arguably most influenced by California) is important not to lose sight of.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Any examples to illustrate this?

RRichie09
10-09-2011, 3:38 PM
Finally a well thought out respinse to all those who just respond with, quit whining and just move.

Thank you.

ccmc
10-09-2011, 3:44 PM
Gun rights will be born out of the most restrictive states; why would the battle even need to be fought in Arizona?

I have lived in California all my life. I have been all over the US and quite frankly, I like it better here. California is worth fighting for. I fully expect the residents of NYC, Chicago, MA, DC, and Hawaii to feel the same way. I am not ditching my friends, walking out on my business, and turning my life upside down so I can live in a state where my 2nd Amendment rights haven't been restricted *yet*.

I am not moving. Let the anti-gun people move out of California if they don't line guns. I hear Oregon is nice...

Finally, I am sick of the weak and cowardly loudly denouncing California gun owners because they won't move. What have they done to further 2nd Amendment rights? Give money? Make calls? Teach people to shoot? Hello? I have a suggestion to them: Get out of our state, we don't want you here. Goodbye.

Anti-gun people have no reason to move out of California, NYC, Chicago, MA, DC and Hawaii. They are in the majority in all those places, and they probably enjoy living there just as much as pro gun people do. Life's too short to leave a place where you enjoy living based on gun laws alone.

I've never lived in CA, and have never intended to, but I do enjoy my occasional visits. I just wish nonresidents had a way to legally carry.

mzimmers
10-09-2011, 3:49 PM
Gene –

I could never begin to thank you adequately for all you've done for gun owners here in CA.

At the risk of sounding ungrateful, though...I'm ready to bail myself. I feel like I'm living in an alien nation here. I'm tired of my votes never, ever mattering, the political orientation that borders on psychosis, the insane nannyism, the high cost of living, the crowds...and the oppressive gun regulations (and the prevailing mentality that accompanies them).

This weekend I made the decision to begin applying for work out of state. I'm a 5th-generation Californian, but...enough is enough. I will always wish you well in your battles, but...I guess I'm just too fed up and tired to fight anymore.

stix213
10-09-2011, 3:57 PM
Freedom is contagious - we're going to win. The do nothing nay sayers can go move to wherever they want, and they probably don't vote anyway. Just part of the perpetual victimhood that's a huge problem across the board in this country, not just for the 2A.

Sgt Raven
10-09-2011, 4:41 PM
Like it or not, we in the PRK, will continue to get grief IMO........snip..................
Soldier on!


Fixed, 'cause the 'Ant Burners' will give us grief, no matter what we accomplish. :(

hoffmang
10-09-2011, 8:34 PM
I'm not sure I agree with this. Any examples to illustrate this?

With the exception of Kansas, all of the civil rights/segregation constitutional minimums were set in the South.

-Gene

wildhawker
10-09-2011, 9:01 PM
All of us "gotta do what we gotta do". I don't think anyone, and certainly not me (or, and not to speak for them, Gene and the other CGF board members) would fault anyone for making life/business decisions in the best interest of them and their families. Please know that we appreciate your support and look forward to hearing that, whatever comes of your future, things are improved. On a personal level, this community is a family - and I always was what's best for my family.

Where I think we have trouble is when former residents "call back" only to tell us and the residents of our state that gun rights are a "hopeless" endeavor, and effectively do nothing but suppress the morale of people who have every reason to be optimistic. To that sort, good riddance.

-Brandon

Gene –

I could never begin to thank you adequately for all you've done for gun owners here in CA.

At the risk of sounding ungrateful, though...I'm ready to bail myself. I feel like I'm living in an alien nation here. I'm tired of my votes never, ever mattering, the political orientation that borders on psychosis, the insane nannyism, the high cost of living, the crowds...and the oppressive gun regulations (and the prevailing mentality that accompanies them).

This weekend I made the decision to begin applying for work out of state. I'm a 5th-generation Californian, but...enough is enough. I will always wish you well in your battles, but...I guess I'm just too fed up and tired to fight anymore.

Don29palms
10-09-2011, 9:58 PM
Like a blacklist? I'm game.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

I already do this myself. If a company won't sell to California 1 item that is legal I will not buy anything from them at all. I have brought this subject up in the past and was chastised for it. I was told "So what? Buy it somwhere else." Ok. Fine. You would not believe how many people still buy items from Cheaper Than Dirt. They will not sell any AR related parts to Kalifornia at all. There are quite a few companies I will not deal with just to save a few pennies. I do support the companies that have always not discriminated against gun owners in Kalifornia. There are companies that stopped shipping to Kalifornia before AB962 took affect. Again they not only stopped shipping ammo of any kind and reloading supplies also. That has changed but it should not have happened in the first place. I will not support those companies either.

I really do appreciate the people that are working so hard to regain our rights that have been taken away by the overlords in our political leadership. It is and always will be frustrating when you see 1 step forward to be knocked back 2 steps. As one laws is repealed 4 more unconstitutional laws get passed. It's also not just 2A rights it's all our rights that are being trampled on by the socialist ideals of our state and federal government. I have lived in Kalifornia all my life and I love this state. It's the politics and laws that are killing it. More and more people and buisnesses are leaving everyday and taking their jobs with them. Pretty soon Kalifornia will be full of slaves with no rights, illegal border jumpers, welfare trash and the governmental overlords to run it all. You can call me a quitter if you want but I will be leaving this prison state as soon as I possibly can unless things turn around for the better, I just really don't see it happening but I always hope it will.

To the people out there working to regain our rights, Please keep up the good work and prove me wrong.

hoffmang
10-09-2011, 10:09 PM
You would not believe how many people still buy items from Cheaper Than Dirt.

I enjoy not shopping at CTD. When we're done fixing things, I'm going to continue to remember their intransigence and remind others of that too.

-Gene

Don29palms
10-09-2011, 10:14 PM
I enjoy not shopping at CTD. When we're done fixing things, I'm going to continue to remember their intransigence and remind others of that too.

-Gene

Me too! They still send me catalogs and I take it as a challenge to find the items I want elsewhere for a better price. Most of the time it's not hard.

ADH
10-09-2011, 11:26 PM
Just adding my 2 cents;

I moved here about 18 months ago from AZ to take a much better job than the one I had in Phoenix. While everything else about the job and the area has been awesome, the firearm culture-shock was intense for me (I'm on the peninsula near SF). At times it has been overwhelming.

Firearms have always been a big part of my life and I felt like many were literally torn from my hands. I (like many out-of-staters) didn't understand the Bullet Button/OLL setup well enough back then so I let go of all of my favorite rifles (except the bolt guns) before I moved. I've had an AZ LTC for a decade, but now that's over too. I underestimated how angry that would make me.

At first I was just bitter about all of that, but I've come to be truly grateful for an opportunity (even a tiny one) to make a difference. If I hadn't come here, I wouldn't have known how important CGF really is and how important it is to donate. I wouldn't have found CGN and had a community to share info and resources with (no matter how small my contributions).

Someday, when CGF prevails, it will make my next LTC seem much more valuable. I'll be grateful to have been here to support the effort. In retrospect, I can't believe how many of my AZ friends take their rights for granted.

CGF has been an amazing purveyor of hope and win. THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING!

Besides all that, quitting is for losers. I've heard it said that there is no greater sin than hopelessness.

hoffmang
10-10-2011, 12:09 AM
Someday, when CGF prevails, it will make my next LTC seem much more valuable.

We will get you a California License to Carry in the next 24 to 36 months, worst case.

-Gene

NorCalDustin
10-10-2011, 1:09 AM
I enjoy not shopping at CTD. When we're done fixing things, I'm going to continue to remember their intransigence and remind others of that too.

-Gene

Same.... I will also continue to spread the word about what they've pulled in the past.

bwiese
10-10-2011, 1:32 AM
Yep.... and while I note that CTD did try to help in one legal matter, continued appeals to them by informed people fall on deaf ears.

By contrast, the nice people at J&G Sales (Arizona) reach out to us to see what new products/sales methods they can use to legally get more nice stuff into CA.

ccmc
10-10-2011, 5:49 AM
With the exception of Kansas, all of the civil rights/segregation constitutional minimums were set in the South.

-Gene

Well that's going back a ways. Not accurate/relevant today. I find more de facto racial segregation in my wife's home county of Marin in California than virtually anywhere in the south. But in any event California's minimums on RKBA are not showing signs of spreading to other states with the exception of like minded states like MD, NJ, NY, etc. Remember Iowa with it's similar to California may issue system and Wisconsin with it's no issue system went shall issue, and more importantly to me personally both now recognize my FL CWFL (well WI after Nov 1). Have any states gone from shall issue to may or no issue in the last 25 years? And other than Vermont in 1903 how many states have gone shall issue as a result of litigation as opposed to legislation?

wash
10-10-2011, 10:33 AM
I bought a nice optical rangefinder from CTD.

I drooled over it when they first got them and the price was something like $500. Then the price went down and down and down and I bought mine when it hit $150 I think. They sold out soon after but I'm happy about the $350 of my money that they didn't get.

I haven't felt a need to buy from CTD since.

But getting back on topic, even if I moved out of California, I would still support CGF because they are the front line.

Wherryj
10-10-2011, 10:50 AM
A new post today on the CGF Blog:

"Recently I got into a discussion with someone who had moved away from California. He asserted that all the litigation didn't matter and that we as civil rights supporters were not winning and, as usual, we Californians should just leave. I asked him an important question and it should be telling that he didn't answer that question publicly. I asked him how populous his supposed free state was. He privately replied that his new state's population was 3,800,000 (Oregon) and continued to accuse California gun rights supporters of being Baghdad Bob for saying that we're winning. There is no more serious case of Battered Gun Owner Syndrome or lack of understanding of what is actually going on in the US. Because I think this attitude may be a bit too common, I'm compelled to comment on it."

More here (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/blog/entry/battered-gun-owner-syndrome-and-the-fight-for-the-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms.html).

-Gene

Does this mean that we who suffer from "battered gun owner syndrome" (BGOS) can get protection under the ADA?

Connor P Price
10-10-2011, 10:54 AM
Well that's going back a ways. Not accurate/relevant today. I find more de facto racial segregation in my wife's home county of Marin in California than virtually anywhere in the south. But in any event California's minimums on RKBA are not showing signs of spreading to other states with the exception of like minded states like MD, NJ, NY, etc. Remember Iowa with it's similar to California may issue system and Wisconsin with it's no issue system went shall issue, and more importantly to me personally both now recognize my FL CWFL (well WI after Nov 1). Have any states gone from shall issue to may or no issue in the last 25 years? And other than Vermont in 1903 how many states have gone shall issue as a result of litigation as opposed to legislation?

You seem to misunderstand "minimums." There will always be states that are better off for rkba than others. When establishing the constitutional minimum, a guideline will be set for what infringements are allowed under the constitution as reasonable regulations. Those minimums will be set in the places where there are UNreasonable regulations that are found to be unconstitutional.

Heller and Mcdonald started the process by defining the minimum in one area, firearms in common use can not be banned in the home. More minimums will be set in other restrictive states and localities regarding carry, semi auto bans, magazine restrictions, etc. Other states will have rights above the minimum, but no states can have rights below the minimums once they are set.

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wash
10-10-2011, 10:54 AM
Maybe we could get a prescription for a "comfort gun"?

Caladain
10-10-2011, 10:57 AM
Maybe we could get a prescription for a "comfort gun"?

What's the legality of betting someone on the outcome of our battles with the prize being a firearm?

I've been thinking i could get a lot of these BGOS sufferers today to put their money where their mouth is...and end up with a nice collection of Sigs and Glocks a year or two from now..

Wherryj
10-10-2011, 11:04 AM
"So the other [insert ethnic group] shot him."

I've brought it up before. There seems to be little interest. If anything, I'll be pilloried by fanboys for [insert name of retailer]. My take is, we have the power of the purse, and 13 percent of the country's population. If enough Calgunners refuse to buy ANYthing (including items they have no trouble shipping) from retailers who unfairly discriminate against us, we'll get some attention (and, conversely, support those who support us).

Following CA law, no matter how reprehensible the law, is one thing; refusing to ship where others do ship, out of ignorance or laziness or sending a "message," is something else.

Blacklist -- I'll start off with Sportsman's Guide. As schlocky an operation as you could ever hope to find.

You must have "Swiss Flu" -- me too. I was going to buy some GP11 from this outfit
http://www.fivesevenammo.com/shop/page4.html
but he won't ship to Orange County. There is absolutely no restriction on ammo shipment to OC. He also won't ship ammo to "Loyo County." I'm still looking for "Loyo County." (When these people copy boilerplate, they sometimes mistype).

Samco Global Arms (Stand back! Fanboy stampede!)
https://www.samcoglobal.com/FAQ.html
(at least they can spell "Yolo")

Others? How about a formal list, as a sticky? It should have not only the name of the retailer, but WHAT he/she won't ship, to WHERE, with links and documentation (don't want to let it turn into a screw-your-competition page where retailers blackball each other). A table or spreadsheet format would be best.

Conversely, a list of recommended dealers.
I will say...
Midway
Graf's
Seven Springs Armory (first refused to ship to Ventura, then informed himself -- http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=425769&highlight=fivesevenammo )
JoeBob Outfitters (good black rifle stuff, and offers a Calguns discount)

I'll definitely second Sportsman's Guide. The two times I've ever attempted to order from them I've encountered bait and switch tactics.

On the plus side, I've never had issues with either Midway or Cabela's.

Don29palms
10-10-2011, 11:05 AM
The biggest problem wth Kalifornia is not just 2A rights. It's all our rights. They all have been trampled on. When my kids apply for college assistance and are told they don't qualify but a crminal immigrant can get a full ride? Wrong! When 32% of the people in this country that are on welfare are here in Kalifornia that's also wrong. When the Kalifornia legislature keeps passing laws and regulations that run companies out of this state that's wrong. The mentality of tax the hell ut of everyone so they can spend more than they get on unnecessary programs is wrong. The insanity has to stop. Passing over 500 new laws every year is wrong. We need less government not more. What next? A law that makes it illegal to come out of your home? Taxing people for breathing?

Again,I do appreciate the work being done by GCF and associates. The factis that all that work really should be unnecessary. If the politicians would just do there job instead of trying to turn this state into the next socialist country we would be much better off. Welcome to the USSK!

Wherryj
10-10-2011, 11:06 AM
Maybe we could get a prescription for a "comfort gun"?

I suppose that my office could gear up for the "Medical Comfort Gun Card", and without too much arm twisting.

Connor P Price
10-10-2011, 11:12 AM
I suppose that my office could gear up for the "Medical Comfort Gun Card", and without too much arm twisting.

Dr, my back hurts!

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Librarian
10-10-2011, 11:14 AM
I enjoy not shopping at CTD. When we're done fixing things, I'm going to continue to remember their intransigence and remind others of that too.

-Gene

With a little persistence, you can get them to stop sending almost all catalogs to you.

A couple years ago I wrote and told them to stop sending them, and told them why. Took a few months, but now I get maybe two per year rather than one per week.

IPSICK
10-10-2011, 11:55 AM
Thought I'd post this here.

I'm getting a big headache from all the calgunners failing to see the big picture of what just happened. Sometimes you 'lose' smaller battles to win the war.

Jerry Brown did the best (intentionally/unintentionally?) he could politically accomplish for gun owners.

He vetoed SB 427 which was extremely dangerous to us, while curtailing further efforts on the topic in his veto message. Might it come up again? Yes, but only if the ongoing litigation ends in complete failure which so far is not happening.

He signs both AB144 and SB610 which is negative (or so it seems) on one end but extremely positive on the other. UOC was a PR nightmare for gun owners and LEO whether you want to admit it or not. Many non-gun owning friends of mine who are either supportive or neutral on gun rights hated UOC. SB610 smooths out a few of the obstacles to LTC.

SB819 again 'seems' bad, but if the right people are able to argue that DROS is now an underground tax this may yet become a victory.

AB809 is a bitter pill to swallow but if truly a DC appellate court has deemed registration unconstitutional there again is hope.


For those expecting Jerry to just come out and veto all the 'hated' bills, you're failing to realize how the political machine unfortunately works. He had to give some (or at least look like it) to hopefully get some later on.


Lastly, if you agree that RKBA is a civil right then you must understand that many victories in the Civil Rights Movement occurred first in court before they found a legislative solution. Also many of the things won by the CRM were 'illegal' until shown to be unjust in the courts.

oaklander
10-10-2011, 12:51 PM
As with just about everything, Gene nailed it here.

Please let me explain - it's esoteric. . .

We are #winning so often and so fast that people can't even keep up. It is like technology, it's almost like the concept of "Future Shock."

There ARE losses - but that is because we are #winning. The more we win - the more we lose. BUT - the losses are WAY LESS than the #winning.

Just tally up what we HAVE GAINED so far. We are TOTALLY WINNING NOW - and we must keep up the pressure (both legally, and via grassroots).

Gun rights ARE NOW VIEWED AS PURE CIVIL RIGHTS! That alone means that we will continue to WIN.

For fun - click here - if you think I am wrong:

http://bit.ly/nbAPYb

I know it is not scientific - BUT the tenor has changed. #winning stories now outnumber losing stories by AT LEAST 20 to ONE!

ccmc
10-10-2011, 2:57 PM
You seem to misunderstand "minimums." There will always be states that are better off for rkba than others. When establishing the constitutional minimum, a guideline will be set for what infringements are allowed under the constitution as reasonable regulations. Those minimums will be set in the places where there are UNreasonable regulations that are found to be unconstitutional.

Heller and Mcdonald started the process by defining the minimum in one area, firearms in common use can not be banned in the home. More minimums will be set in other restrictive states and localities regarding carry, semi auto bans, magazine restrictions, etc. Other states will have rights above the minimum, but no states can have rights below the minimums once they are set.

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Yeah, I think I did misunderstand what you meant. I thought you were saying that California gun laws would spread to most other states, and I don't believe there's any evidence of that. But if you mean that SCOTUS will find gun laws in states like CA or NY constitutional, then I do agree that CA or NY will define the constitutional minimum. I don't see that as a problem for shall issue states.

hoffmang
10-10-2011, 3:01 PM
Yeah, I think I did misunderstand what you meant. I thought you were saying that California gun laws would spread to most other states, and I don't believe there's any evidence of that. But if you mean that SCOTUS will find gun laws in states like CA or NY constitutional, then I do agree that CA or NY will define the constitutional minimum. I don't see that as a problem for shall issue states.

The problem is that if it's not done well in CA or NY then states like Colorado and Oregon can use those poor decisions to undermine their own RKBA and do silly stuff like Denver does today around carry reciprocity.

We all hang together for we shall certainly hang separately.

-Gene

ccmc
10-10-2011, 3:02 PM
I'll definitely second Sportsman's Guide. The two times I've ever attempted to order from them I've encountered bait and switch tactics.

On the plus side, I've never had issues with either Midway or Cabela's.

Really? I've never had a problem with any of the three. What specifically was your bait and switch experience with Sportamans Guide? I've had nothing but good service from them.

Connor P Price
10-10-2011, 3:10 PM
Yeah, I think I did misunderstand what you meant. I thought you were saying that California gun laws would spread to most other states, and I don't believe there's any evidence of that. But if you mean that SCOTUS will find gun laws in states like CA or NY constitutional, then I do agree that CA or NY will define the constitutional minimum. I don't see that as a problem for shall issue states.

Yeah, that's what I figured, simple miscommunication. Our restrictions will not be exported any more than they are already. Our minimums will be exported and serve as a constitutional ground floor of sorts. Even in Arizona, the constitutional minimums set by the restrictive states will be binding, its just not likely to matter because their legislature wouldn't go there.

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ccmc
10-10-2011, 3:10 PM
The problem is that if it's not done well in CA or NY then states like Colorado and Oregon can use those poor decisions to undermine their own RKBA and do silly stuff like Denver does today around carry reciprocity.

We all hang together for we shall certainly hang separately.

-Gene

I don't disagree that's possible in some states. I imagine Oregon and Colorado get a lot of California transplants, many of whom are anti RKBA. It's a problem in certain counties here in Florida (Palm Beach and Broward come to mind) that get a lot of NJ and NY democrat transplants. But even so most of the northern transplants I meet are happy to be in a state where RKBA is respected, and in most counties encouraged.

Connor P Price
10-10-2011, 3:14 PM
The problem is that if it's not done well in CA or NY then states like Colorado and Oregon can use those poor decisions to undermine their own RKBA and do silly stuff like Denver does today around carry reciprocity.

We all hang together for we shall certainly hang separately.

-Gene

Gene beat me to it since I type slow on my phone, but this is what I meant by a constitutional ground floor.

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ccmc
10-10-2011, 3:25 PM
Gene beat me to it since I type slow on my phone, but this is what I meant by a constitutional ground floor.

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That ground floor already exists. So you all are trying to move it a bit (or a lot) to a higher level which is a noble cause. When I met my wife many years ago she was a very typical Marin County anti gun person. Her years living in Florida have changed her 180 degrees on RKBA. Really remarkable. Whenever we visit her family who are all anti RKBA they tease me about having brainwashed her, but I had little or nothing to do with it.

gose
10-10-2011, 7:27 PM
I think its hard for some to not become disillusioned when they read about all the epic winning and numerous victories as well as promises of future victories, when a lot of people havent really seen much change after OLLs in 05/06.
The road is so long and so bumpy that I'm not surprised that some lose track along the way.
Sure, there are plenty of stories about things like LTCs in various parts of the state, but until it actually happens to you, its going to be like reading in the paper about someone who just won the lottery, it happened to "someone else" and you get disconnected...

In many cases people do have way too high expectations on what can be achieved and when; its a fine line between trying to keep people's spirits up and overselling. Most people understand that things take time, but its not really surprising that some are getting restless

hoffmang
10-10-2011, 10:29 PM
I don't think the CGF as an entity, nor its chairman can take credit for OLLs. The inevitability of the OLL movement happened in the first few months of that year, and was formalized and crowned by the passing of 2728, which predates the CGF and your involvement.

Beg to differ with you. DOJ returned 219 lowers seized from artherd because I got involved. And I did nothing else in OLLs, except, well, invent the bullet button. There was also this underground regulation...

The 219 Milpitas lowers were the germination of what became CGF.

More to the point - I'm not saying "CGF is winning" though it is. I'm saying gun owners are winning. As you yourself admit, Much of CGF is the core group who did what was necessary to take OLLs from a couple of guys writing letters and getting a lower or two to mass acceptance with DOJ opining vociferously that BB equipped firearms are legal.

-Gene

Cali-Shooter
10-10-2011, 10:33 PM
I enjoy not shopping at CTD. When we're done fixing things, I'm going to continue to remember their intransigence and remind others of that too.

-Gene

Yep.... and while I note that CTD did try to help in one legal matter, continued appeals to them by informed people fall on deaf ears.

By contrast, the nice people at J&G Sales (Arizona) reach out to us to see what new products/sales methods they can use to legally get more nice stuff into CA.

CTD catalogs make excellent wood-burning fireplace kindling materials, of all things.

Burn baby, burn! :56:

wash
10-10-2011, 10:47 PM
Beg to differ with you. DOJ returned 219 lowers seized from artherd because I got involved. And I did nothing else in OLLs, except, well, invent the bullet button. There was also this underground regulation...

The 219 Milpitas lowers were the germination of what became CGF.

I thought those lowers got seized from Rob Blank.

Ben was just the first or second guy to build up an OLL AR with his JP I think.

gose
10-10-2011, 11:02 PM
I thought those lowers got seized from Rob Blank.
Ben was just the first or second guy to build up an OLL AR with his JP I think.


AFAIK, Ben was organizing the GB. Rob was the FFL used.

viet4lifeOC
10-10-2011, 11:17 PM
We will get you a California License to Carry in the next 24 to 36 months, worst case.

-Gene

Can i hold you that by putting it in my sig line?

oaklander
10-11-2011, 8:02 AM
If Gene had not fought off the underground reg (with my help, a tiny bit on the editing of that petition), we would have to fricken WELD OR EPOXY OUR MAGAZINES INTO OUR GUNS.

I had originally flamed you, then I remembered who you were, and I remembered that you and I talked at length a few months ago. I think.

LOOK - we are all on the same team here. Let us not get all freaked out (me included!)

;-)

At that point, by Bill's count, other people had already purchased somewhere around 50,000 or 70,000 lowers. Go back to his old posts with his statistics. The return of the 219 lowers put the DoJ on notice that they can't get away with their antics any more, but it did not substantially change the flow of lowers into the state.


Those tens of thousands of lowers were legally configured, with a variety of mag locks that predate the bullet button. I still have some of those types sitting in parts bags (should throw them away). Clearly, the BB is much preferable, which is why it is now installed on all my AWs.


Which was not seriously slowing anyone down.


At the point the CGF was germinating, the bandwagon was already moving at high speed.


While I agree with the sentiment, your argument uses statements that are wrong by 5 orders of magnitude (and that's in decimal, not in binary). It's not a lower or two, it was tens of thousands before the CGF came into existence. The hyperbole runs pretty thick here. However, you are correct in the following: When 2728 was passed, the door was closed: the flow of OLLs could no longer be stopped. But the DoJ either had its head in the sand, or was fighting silly rear guard actions (such as the proposed regulation). The formation of the CGF after 2728, and the events you described (return of the impounded lowers, bullet button testimony, and OAL action) stopped that nonsense and prevented further ineffective DoJ harassment. Which are all good things, and I don't deny them. But credit for the OLL movement itself has to go to other people.

missiondude
10-11-2011, 8:09 AM
With a little persistence, you can get them to stop sending almost all catalogs to you.

A couple years ago I wrote and told them to stop sending them, and told them why. Took a few months, but now I get maybe two per year rather than one per week.

I LIKE getting all the catalogs. Cost them money, and the recycling bin around here is always full.:D

oaklander
10-11-2011, 8:16 AM
Yes, and I say WINNING a lot because I "see" changes on backend before people see them on the front end. Oakland is an example. Two years ago, I was literally shouting at the city council over some stupid anti-gun laws they wanted to pass.

NOW, one of them is Mayor, and we are ALL WORKING AS A TEAM TO FIX THE REAL PROBLEM (violence, not guns). I am now part of the team I was railing against!

They are generally welcoming me/us. As a movement, we have become THAT legitimate, and THAT accepted.

You will simply NOT see any more anti-gun laws out of Oakland. There are a thousand little victories like that. I "see" this stuff because I am engaged directly in the battles. If folks rely only on mediated sources (like forums, or blogs), they only "see" a subset of reality. To accurately view reality, you have to literally touch it.

I think its hard for some to not become disillusioned when they read about all the epic winning and numerous victories as well as promises of future victories, when a lot of people havent really seen much change after OLLs in 05/06.
The road is so long and so bumpy that I'm not surprised that some lose track along the way.
Sure, there are plenty of stories about things like LTCs in various parts of the state, but until it actually happens to you, its going to be like reading in the paper about someone who just won the lottery, it happened to "someone else" and you get disconnected...

In many cases people do have way too high expectations on what can be achieved and when; its a fine line between trying to keep people's spirits up and overselling. Most people understand that things take time, but its not really surprising that some are getting restless

goober
10-11-2011, 8:45 AM
<lots of stuff>...

While I agree with the sentiment, your argument uses statements that are wrong by 5 orders of magnitude (and that's in decimal, not in binary). It's not a lower or two, it was tens of thousands before the CGF came into existence.

that's 4 orders. granted it's a nitpick, but if you're going to try to sound authoritative using math, at least get it right.



<lots more>...

But credit for the OLL movement itself has to go to other people.

whatever.

radioburning
10-11-2011, 8:54 AM
Further, the battered gun owner doesn't think we win unless we win it all, in one fell swoop, immediately.

Exactly. Thank you, Gene, for putting it in perspective for all the CG defeatists.

As for CTD and Sportsman's Guide, maybe we should all make the effort to call in big money orders once a month and when they ask for our shipping address and tell us they can't ship certain items to that county we can just say "oh, that's too bad. I guess you can just cancel that whole order then and I'll place the same order with Cabelas/J&G/etc.

gose
10-11-2011, 9:27 AM
Yes, and I say WINNING a lot because I "see" changes on backend before people see them on the front end. Oakland is an example. Two years ago, I was literally shouting at the city council over some stupid anti-gun laws they wanted to pass.
NOW, one of them is Mayor, and we are ALL WORKING AS A TEAM TO FIX THE REAL PROBLEM (violence, not guns). I am now part of the team I was railing against!
They are generally welcoming me/us. As a movement, we have become THAT legitimate, and THAT accepted.
You will simply NOT see any more anti-gun laws out of Oakland. There are a thousand little victories like that. I "see" this stuff because I am engaged directly in the battles. If folks rely only on mediated sources (like forums, or blogs), they only "see" a subset of reality. To accurately view reality, you have to literally touch it.

My point wasnt really about winning or not, it was about what people perceive.
People that are more involved probably understand that we're in for the long haul and that its not going to be one quick big win that changes everything. However, most people are not that involved and if they only see talk and no changes that affect them directly at some point people will give up hope, some sooner than others. If they dont "see" what they need to see to understand, isnt that an indication of an information problem?

At least that's how I would interpret it, more of an information flow/"internal marketing" issue than a lack of progress. The blurred line between CGF and the individual persons working for/with CGF sometimes make it hard to know whats coming from CGF and whats really individual opinions or ideas and this isnt always helping in trying to figure out what CGF really does...

oaklander
10-11-2011, 9:31 AM
My point wasnt really about winning or not, it was about what people perceive.
People that are more involved probably understand that we're in for the long haul and that its not going to be one quick big win that changes everything. However, most people are not that involved and if they only see talk and no changes that affect them directly at some point people will give up hope, some sooner than others. If they dont "see" what they need to see to understand, isnt that an indication of an information problem?

At least that's how I would interpret it, more of an information flow/"internal marketing" issue than a lack of progress. The blurred line between CGF and the individual persons working for/with CGF sometimes make it hard to know whats coming from CGF and whats really individual opinions or ideas and this isnt always helping in trying to figure out what CGF really does...

That outward-appearing randomness/chaos is not always accidental. Our opposition reads this forum too.

As I learned how things work, I learned to not trust words. I learned to trust actions. Then I learned to trust motivations only, and set all else aside.

Again, it is my "Ikea Store" thing. The real world is more chaotic and random than can be expressed in words. You have to literally touch it to actually see it. Unless you are "in" this snake pit, it is hard to understand it fully.

Sent from my brain, to yours. . .

wash
10-11-2011, 9:41 AM
The original off list "evil black rifle" was the FAL.

I was buying parts kits and stripped uppers long before CGF's genesis, but at the beginning of the AR OLL revolution my FFL started getting cold feet about OLLs and even FAL uppers.

Without the people who became CGF, there would have been at least two years when Californians who wanted to buy a black rifle would have been turned away.

Is that good enough for you?

CGF has been tremendously important for California gun owners.

gose
10-11-2011, 9:43 AM
That outward-appearing randomness/chaos is not always accidental. Our opposition reads this forum too.
Sent from my brain, to yours. . .

Indeed, and it's a thin line between not telling your opposition what youre doing while still telling your supports enough to keep them happy.

I guess I just didnt really agree with blaming the supporters/gun owner for a lack of understanding when the information needed to understand is withheld or obfuscated.

Luieburger
10-11-2011, 9:46 AM
Well written Gene. It fits the current mood quite well. You make me feel guilty for moving to WA state. I'm moving for many reasons (mostly because my employer is moving me there), but gun rights is a nice bonus. On the good side, the money that I save on taxes and rent/mortgage payments has a good chance of finding its way into the NRA and CalGuns bank accounts. ;)

pitchbaby
10-11-2011, 9:48 AM
Gene, you've brilliantly illustrated the importance of the California movement. The idea that the constitutional minimum will be set by the most anti-gun states (arguably most influenced by California) is important not to lose sight of. That's why I'm always so amazed and proud when we have Calgunners from other states, or those who leave to other states but continue to support CGF. Those people get it. They understand the importance of the fight in California on a national level.

THAT^^^^

oaklander
10-11-2011, 10:00 AM
Indeed, and it's a thin line between not telling your opposition what youre doing while still telling your supports enough to keep them happy.

I guess I just didnt really agree with blaming the supporters/gun owner for a lack of understanding when the information needed to understand is withheld or obfuscated.

Well, as "Of Counsel" - I am more involved with other things - but I do know that CGF just put up a new blog, and that they are really trying to tell people as much as possible. That being said, it is impossible to say everything:

1) too much happens to put every event down into words
2) as I have outlined, some stuff should not be said

AGAIN - this is why it is important to go to events once in a while. The events ARE primarily for fun (most of them), but they also serve as informal meetings. CGF is only like 6 or 7 people. They work for free, and they do not have the money to pay for a press person. Well, they have a little bit - but they use that for litigation.

I guess what bugs me is that these guys (and I wish more females were in our movement, BTW) truly DO WORK HARD, and THEY WORK FOR FREE. I get kind of teed-off when I see people say bad things about them. About 90 percent of the time, I feel like - "if you don't like it - then start your own group."

SERIOUSLY - that is one of the reasons I actually don't have a personal issue with many of the UOC folks - even though we do not always see eye-to-eye - at least they are putting in the work.

About 99.9 percent of CA gun owners love to ***** about the NRA, the CRPA, CGF, and everyone else. Yet, aside from sending a few bucks now and then, they do ZERO volunteer work. The grassroots IS the gun rights movement. Period. There are some paid positions, but they are rare - and they tend to deal with legislative issues, and national issues.

At a state level, 99.9 percent of the positive work you see is from about 100 unpaid volunteers. That's IT. An entire state is carried by about 100 people. Most of them were at Murphys, BTW. And I know EXACTLY how everything works, and who is who, and how things are put together.

These 100 unpaid people carry the weight for an entire state, mostly for FREE - and then folks just dogpile on them. Totally not right, not fair, and just stupid, IMHO.

doubledgarage
10-11-2011, 10:34 AM
You couldn't pay me to move outside of Los Angeles. Maybe you could pay me to move to OC. That's about it.