PDA

View Full Version : how Double Action Revolvers Work!


Kosuki
10-07-2011, 12:23 PM
TXliIJ_66FQ&feature=related
I do not own a revolver...I want more than 5-6 shots ^^

JeremyS
10-07-2011, 12:31 PM
I'm not a big revolver guy either, but there are .357 mags that hold 8 rounds. As most shooting situations usually involve 1-3 shots, I think you're doing pretty good there. A lot of the little CCW guns people are carrying these days only hold 6, and the CA max is 10, of course, so I think revolvers still have a legitimate place these days in terms of firepower.

junkit_boy
10-07-2011, 1:24 PM
Whoa! Invisible fingers! I want those!

ZombieTactics
10-07-2011, 1:39 PM
... As most shooting situations usually involve 1-3 shots, I think you're doing pretty good there. ... You might want to rethink this notion. I am open to being corrected, but I've been researching this for a while. What I have found is the following:

The average self-defense shooting requires 3-4 good hits to achieve a stop. This has nothing to do with how many rounds need to be fired to achieve that number of hits.

If the average requires 3-4 good hits, it likely means that more than 50% of the cases require more than 3-4 hits ... that's just how the math works.

I have no data for citizen self-defense, but the available data from LE encounters indicate that only 20%-30% or rounds fired result in any kind of hit at all.

The above information regards encounters with a single assailant.

Consider carefully what you believe regarding how many rounds you need. Revolvers are excellent, it may just be wise to consider having a "New York reload" available if you choose to carry a revolver for self defense.

esartori
10-07-2011, 1:51 PM
I'm not a big revolver guy either, but there are .357 mags that hold 8 rounds. As most shooting situations usually involve 1-3 shots, I think you're doing pretty good there. A lot of the little CCW guns people are carrying these days only hold 6, and the CA max is 10, of course, so I think revolvers still have a legitimate place these days in terms of firepower.

I agree to some degree. I use my 1911 for HD which holds 8. Most .357's hold 6 some hold 7 or 8 so I would feel comfortable with either. I think the only downside to a revolver in a HD situation is reload time if you do need more than the 6, 7, or 8 shots. True, some people can become proficient with speed loaders or moonclips, but I think in an HD situation, it is easier to toss an extra mag in a pocket. However, this is less important than making good hits and overall proficiency with the firearm as mentioned above.

JeremyS
10-07-2011, 2:59 PM
Yeah. I don't carry a revolver and I only own one -- an NAA Mini, which is a novelty and sometimes a snake gun for me on hikes.

Shooting data is difficult stuff and I've seen all sorts of numbers thrown around. The majority of what I've read differs from what ZombieTactics stated. I tried to find data on non-law-enforcement self defense shootings and it indicates very strongly that 1-3 shots, not hits, is the number in the vastly overwhelming majority of self defense shootings. Heck, just reading "the armed citizen" in American Rifleman every month for many years and it is really rare that more than 1 or 2 shots are fired in order to completely stop the threat and send the BG(s) running in the other direction or dying.

By no means am I arguing for less rounds or saying that's preferable. It most certainly isn't and it's one of two reasons I prefer a semi-auto (the second being slim width in a semi vs. the thickness of a revolver's cylinder).

I just don't agree with people writing off revolvers as a viable means of self defense due to ammo capacity.


...and I agree with the reload thing. In my mind, a self defense shooting is either going to be over in a couple of rounds, which is, by far, the most likely scenario, or it will be a shootout involving a reload. I'd much rather be reloading with a magazine and, in a dynamic situation, large capacity suddenly becomes extremely important... I live in a bad neighborhood (gang violence, some muggings, home invasion/robbery, etc) and I've read the police reports every single week for the past 4 years. In not a single one of many hundreds of shooting incidents I've read would having more than 1-2 rounds have helped the victim. Most of the criminals are cowards who start running after firing the first shot in one-sided situations (drive-by kind of things) or start running after the first shot of return fire. Heck... one of the last incidents involved a guy running from the cops who tried to fire over his shoulder and shot himself in the neck. Sometimes you don't even have to shoot back haha

I think the likelyhood of running into someone whos actual intent is to murder you no matter the consequences is smaller than most people think. Chances are you're running up against a BG who wants something from you (wallet, money, car, TV, whatever). One shot in their direction and they're off for the hills. To really want to stand there and have a gun battle or to continue coming for you even after you present a firearm is dedication that goes beyond wanting to steal a couple bucks. Again, not saying you should bet the farm on this and carry a 2-shot Derringer, but I think a lot of us overestimate the drive/motivation and commitment of most criminals and what their actual goal usually is (steal something from easy victim without getting caught).

zfields
10-07-2011, 3:09 PM
Jeez. I like to keep 19+1 next to me : /

JeremyS
10-07-2011, 3:22 PM
Jealous! I would, but it's 10+1 next to me today.


For instance... working on some Photoshop stuff for an ad campaign:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6047/6221546752_f8ecb293ed.jpg

Common
10-07-2011, 3:25 PM
An option can be the .327 magnum. 7 shot revolver by Ruger

scarville
10-07-2011, 4:13 PM
Three hits to stop with a 70% miss rate -- the best odds ZT gives above -- means 10 rounds fired with seven misses. The worst case -- four shots to stop with an 80% miss rate -- means 20 rounds are fired with 16 stray bullets. Personally, I would never get on a public forum and admit that I expected to miss four out of five shots. Imagine what a half decent DA or ambulance chaser could do with that admission. Especially if one of those misses hits a bystander.

Lead Waster
10-07-2011, 4:22 PM
Off topic, but that is why people like shotguns for HD.

On topic, cool video! I love those gun animations, it just really points out the great engineering that went into a design.

Thanks for the posting! When I get home, I'll watch it again with audio!

The more you know about how something works, the better you are at using it, right?

9mmepiphany
10-07-2011, 7:50 PM
I do not own a revolver...I want more than 5-6 shots ^^

Just get a S&W M627 and have 8 shots of .357 Magnum power

rsrocket1
10-07-2011, 8:33 PM
Jealous! I would, but it's 10+1 next to me today.


For instance... working on some Photoshop stuff for an ad campaign:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6047/6221546752_f8ecb293ed.jpg

Hmmm,
How about the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
...your one stop shop!

ZombieTactics
10-07-2011, 10:37 PM
Three hits to stop with a 70% miss rate -- the best odds ZT gives above -- means 10 rounds fired with seven misses. The worst case -- four shots to stop with an 80% miss rate -- means 20 rounds are fired with 16 stray bullets. Personally, I would never get on a public forum and admit that I expected to miss four out of five shots. Imagine what a half decent DA or ambulance chaser could do with that admission. Especially if one of those misses hits a bystander.

There is no "admission" of anything regarding my expected performance. I said nothing at all regarding my expected performance, which leads one to conclude that you really didn't read what I wrote very carefully.

It is not an "admission" of something to simply make note of what is widely known as being statistical reality. If you choose something other than reality as the basis for your opinions, I leave you to your own devices.

Some light reading for interested parties, and much more is available for anyone able to actually read and think: CLICK HERE (http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf) (You'll find some interesting revolver-related stuff scarville, some of it much to your liking) It should be noted that this article is far from the sole basis for the opinions I've stated.

scarville
10-08-2011, 12:46 AM
Shooting data is difficult stuff and I've seen all sorts of numbers thrown around. The majority of what I've read differs from what ZombieTactics stated. I tried to find data on non-law-enforcement self defense shootings and it indicates very strongly that 1-3 shots, not hits, is the number in the vastly overwhelming majority of self defense shootings. Heck, just reading "the armed citizen" in American Rifleman every month for many years and it is really rare that more than 1 or 2 shots are fired in order to completely stop the threat and send the BG(s) running in the other direction or dying.

According to an article appearing in the November 2009 of America First Freedom,

In confrontational shootings, studies show police hit their targets between 13 percent and 25 percent of the time. Of the incidents analyzed in this study, civilians hit their targets 84 percent of the time. This comparison does not account for the number of shots fired, only hits or misses.

http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/9493/who-is-the-armed-citizen/

ZombieTactics
10-08-2011, 8:25 AM
^^^ Good stuff ... I'll add it to the mix.

The last phrase, "This comparison does not account for the number of shots fired, only hits or misses" actually means something though, and should be considered carefully. As an engineer, it should be obvious to you that they are counting how many incidents a citizen actually gets a hit, regardless of how many shots are fired. A case where someone fires 10 rounds and gets ONE hit is counted as one of those 84% of successes. It says nothing about the hits vs. rounds fired, and doesn't even pretend to. In this sense, you are side-stepping the issue I raised.

I'll help you out though: A lot of information seems to suggest that fewer rounds are fired (to get good hits) in cases involving revolvers vs. semi-autos. The jury is really out as to what extent this is the case generally, or why. I know you're loving that. It's just another data point for me, as I have no axe to grind one way or the other.

Retired Dave
10-08-2011, 9:25 AM
I carry a 1911. If that hypothetically wasn't an option, I'd probably carry a Browning Hi Power.

But I'd also feel well-armed with a 2.5" S&W .357 magnum K-frame, and a reload.

Dark Mod
10-08-2011, 9:35 AM
Revolvers are cool, but they arent for everyone. They worked just fine for self defense 30 years ago, and some of them hold about as much as a 1911, but Revolvers are hardly ideal today. Unless you need to stop dangerous game or something