Eagle Arms 308 not legal?

[anothergunnut]

I see that Coldwar Shooters has EA 308 receivers listed as not California legal. How come? They couldn't have been listed way back when since they would not have existed. Since they are way cheaper than the Fulton, it would seem like an enterprising type would sell them in CA for less than the Fulton.

[grammaton76]

Eagle Arms has this little subtext on it: "...a division of Armalite".

The DOJ considers them to be Armalite, and the FFL manufacturer numbers do indeed match up. So, no, they aren't CA-legal.

There was a hubbub a while back, when an erroneous approval letter was sent out on them, but it was quickly recanted.

[CALI-gula]

Yes, the Armalite Division rollmark is a problem, and proved to be a problem when some dealers tried bringing them into CA last summer. It was a big let down, and just about anyone working on the problem at the time, while frustrating as it was, conceded.

However, if you really want a top quality CA Off list AR in .308 now, you can get a great deal on a lower from the following group buy that is building right here on Calguns.net. It's based on the DPMS system, which others have acknowledged is more reliable than Armalite's system. I was resigned to only getting something based on the AR10 Armalite version, until I read up more on the DPMS system, and discovered further news that RRA will likely base theirs on the failed Bushmaster .308. I think this is a steal on the most viable .308 AR available for us CA oppressed citizens. Check it out here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=48410

It's the thread in the "For Sale" forum titled:

$349.99 Fulton 308 Titan Lower Group Buy.... Need min. of 20

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[bwiese]

Yes, 'Eagle Arms' is a mere marketing name for Armalite, not really a separate co, no separate mfgrg FFL. It's used to distinguish possible parts guns from Armalite rifles that only ship from the factory as complete guns.

Y It's based on the DPMS system, which others have acknowledged is more reliable than Armalite's system.
I was resigned to only getting something based on the AR10 Armalite version

"Others"?? Who's "others"? Big Belly Bob at the range?

Can you tell me why trial-version rifles from a substandard vendor like DPMS, with very few actual 308 rifles in the field, could be regarded as more reliable than Armalite, who's been making 308 ARs since 1993, and has an extensive history of experience and bugfixes/improvements over time? Armalite has shipped more 308 ARs than any other co, including Knight's/Stoner.

Your "reports" are probably based on a sample of one and a favorable NRA Rifleman review, along with some cheerleading from other publications.

It'll take 3 years to even get a proper inkling of how DPMS compares, reliability wise, to Armalite.

Sh*t, DPMS can't even supply chrome-lined barrels on their 308s.

DPMS ain't a bottom feeder, but I've not been impressed with what I've seen on their 5.56 ARs. Any of the boutique vendors (like the growing CMMG), LMT, or Colt or Armalite - or even Bushmaster - supply a far more refined product in general (Bushmaster's 308 being the exception).

I am no cheerleader for Armalite (I wish they'd used 4150 steel in their bbls, and use F-marked front sight bases on their 5.56 carbines) but in terms of knowing the issues & details of operational cycles of a 308 AR, hands down they have a world more of experience than DPMS - primarily a parts house - could have.

I doubt DPMS has high-speed cameras and FEA software in house to analyze issues ;)

...discovered further news that RRA will likely base theirs on the failed Bushmaster .308.

Yes, Armalite has a whole engineering writeup on their website on why they rejected using FAL mags for a 308 AR - they'd predicted the problems Bushmaster had.

I'm very very impressed with the engineering analysis Armalite does, and their Tech Library documents really show their thoroughness.

[CALI-gula]

I guess my opinion AND your opinion don't really matter on this issue do they? When I can get an Armalite AR10 in CA will you let me know? Or if Noveske comes to the plate with a lower, will you shoot me a PM?

Yes, I too would take an Armalite made AR10 over this Fulton option, as I already have plenty of AR10 accessories (which obviously means...). But I won't be buying a Hesse/Vulcan .308 any time soon (anyone knowing their ventures into .50BMG should shun anything that company does). Personal choice? Maybe.

As far as others on this topic? Well, yes, that's plural. The fact is I have seen many credible people stating the DPMS system is more reliable than the AR10 system, independent and organizational, different mediums and contexts.

And with quantity vs. quality i.e., Armalite vs. DPMS, that is akin to saying GM vs. Ferrari by logic and GM makes a better product because of size and numbers. Now I am not comparing DPMS to Ferrari, but linking quantity to quality is not a reasonable measuring tool.

3 years to even "get a proper inkling of how DPMS compares, reliability wise, to Armalite?" Well, they have to start somewhere right? Just as Armalite is now entering into the fray of handgun territory - would you buy one if you could just because it is Armalite? From what I have seen, I'll stay clear of those, even if they get on the SB15 list. I don't think they even make them, right? Just slap a name on them?

There are people out their that feel they should buy nothing but a Colt 1911/1991, and would shun the thought of any other marque. So be it. But they would be missing out on so much better. Sure, Colt has been doing the 1911 for nearly 100 years, but does that make their current product better than something from Nighthawk? Nighthawk has only been doing this for just a few years, right?

Yes, I know you are really into the Chrome-lined barrel factor. That's all well and good for the next time I am in Iraq or the Congo, but for me, I have never run into troubles with a non-Chrome lined barrel at my shooting range or out in the CA desert. In any case, it is unlikely an Armalite OR a DPMS type rifle would be my fabled "SHTF" rifle, should that day come.

I am sure people here hold your opinion in high regard; after all, I do. And you may be right that the Armalite AR10 is MUCH better - again, where can I get one post Roberti-Roos?

I gauged what I have read - and MORE people are saying the DPMS system is better than Armalite's. So, if I am wrong, and I make a mistake, oh well, you have my blessing to say to me later "See, I told you so". Or not? Who knows? I guess we will find out 3 years from now.

But might it be too late by then to get these as well? Or any .308 AR?


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[xenophobe]

Bill,

I'm sorry to tell you this but, DPMS is the new standard.

Armalite is proprietary and has done everything to stifle .308 expansion in the market. They will not share or license technology, nor will they sell a .308 receiver branded with another company's name.

POF will be DPMS upper compatible and now that Fulton .308 is making gains, pretty soon Armalite will be considered the mid-priced option, leaving DPMS and Fulton with a growing share of the market.

Anyone who wants a 'high profile' name will insist on getting the SR-25. Armalite will seriously regret their marketing/business decisions not to allow expansion of their platform.

[bwiese]

I guess my opinion AND your opinion don't really matter on this issue do they? When I can get an Armalite AR10 in CA will you let me know? Or if Noveske comes to the plate with a lower, will you shoot me a PM?


Deal. And you have a current option, too. You can get a Hesse/Vulcan lower and use an Armalite upper. That way you can take advantage of the overall tested Armalite design.

While Hesse-Vulcan has had issues on 223 AR side, the 308 ones seem to be reasonably competent. Many folks have built working 308 ARs from them (ask CG here, he is knowledgable in this).

. But I won't be buying a Hesse/Vulcan .308 any time soon (anyone knowing their ventures into .50BMG should shun anything that company does). Personal choice? Maybe.

I will continue to assert that a Hesse lower w/rest-of-system-as-Armalite is better than all-DPMS. The upper does all the work. When a lower is screwed up it either is so bad nothing works, or it's unimportant. Visual inspection of a Vulcan/Hesse lower and quick trial assembly and action operation should reveal any problems for which you can swap a lower.


As far as others on this topic? Well, yes, that's plural. The fact is I have seen many credible people stating the DPMS system is more reliable than the AR10 system, independent and organizational, different mediums and contexts.


I tend to belive those are 'specific case' anecdotal situations, often with questionable handwaving around ammo ("My DPMS likes my handloads better than Brand X..". There is no way a substandard co without a real R&D arm, like DPMS, with only a few months of very very small volumes sales, can approch the systems-level engineering Armalite did w/AR10. I dunno if DPMS even has any real engineers.

Yes some early Armalites had issues (first 100 had out-of-round chamber issues), the C vs D marked bolt recall, etc. But experience is the best teacher and I bet Armalite has sold 100X the 308 rifles DPMS has.


And with quantity vs. quality i.e., Armalite vs. DPMS, that is akin to saying GM vs. Ferrari by logic and GM makes a better product because of size and numbers.

Poor example, you just supported my argument:

....actually, it (GM) would beat Ferrari hands-down in terms of fleet operational reliability. Even a GM sh*tbox will have a higher likelihood of starting and getting you from A to B than a Ferrari - or a BMW or Benz, for that matter.

Mass production as opposed to custom one-by-one work instills consistency and reliability because the costs of f**kups are so high, and because small-volume manufacturing has inconsistencies that get driven

It even shows up in car co's on model variations. Here's an example... for many co's 4WD pickups (smaller production run) are taken off the 2WD pickup (much larger fraction of production) production line and have additional work done as appropriate. Analyzing failures in these 4WD vehicles, we see higher rates of problems in non-4WD related areas too. THE CHANGE CAUSED THE ISSUES. Doing something consistently over time is one key item for quality (and consistency).

When we do a trial production run, or a straggler run for some R&D items, of our digital cameras, we often have more issues than when we're in full-swing mass production. Regularity & consistency have a way of weeding things out - it's almost genetic.

Now I am not comparing DPMS to Ferrari, but linking quantity to quality is not a reasonable measuring tool.

I think I refuted that quite well above.

3 years to even "get a proper inkling of how DPMS compares, reliability wise, to Armalite?" Well, they have to start somewhere right?

Sure, just not with me :)

And I do know their engineering ain't gonna be what Armalite has.


Just as Armalite is now entering into the fray of handgun territory - would you buy one if you could just because it is Armalite? From what I have seen, I'll stay clear of those, even if they get on the SB15 list.

Yup, those ain't theirs, those are just a co-marketing deal w/some Turkish company. Those ain't really Armalites.

There are people out their that feel they should buy nothing but a Colt 1911/1991, and would shun the thought of any other marque.

I'll take a Colt over a Kimber anyday. Colt understands you can't tighten up specs too much without making an unreliable jam-o-matic. Other guys wanna build race guns and then when someone buys one and wonders why it's not a daily shooter, he gets a fast $1000 lesson...

product better than something from Nighthawk? Nighthawk has only been doing this for just a few years, right?

I think 1911 knowledge - unlike 308 AR knowledge -is out there. And yes, if i wanted to buy a guy, boom! - now - to protect my life (plus or minus 10 days) I'd take an off the shelf Colt over a Nighthawk.


Yes, I know you are really into the Chrome-lined barrel factor. That's all well and good for the next time I am in Iraq or the Congo, but for me, I have never run into troubles with a non-Chrome lined barrel at my shooting range or out in the CA desert. In any case, it is unlikely an Armalite OR a DPMS type rifle would be my fabled "SHTF" rifle, should that day come.

I have diagnosed a lotta bum ARs in the past decade. Invariably the ones with the most problems - after crap ammo, mags and poor lube are factored out - are the ones without chrome-lined barrels and likely tight chambers.

Since my chrome-lined Armalite AR10A2 shoots sub-MOA with Fed GMM ammo (and without freefloat handguard!) I'm pretty friggin' happy. I've also shot other AR10s with similar results.

I am sure people here hold your opinion in high regard; after all, I do. And you may be right that the Armalite AR10 is MUCH better - again, where can I get one post Roberti-Roos?

Use the Armalite 'system' - which is pretty much all in the upper. The Hesse/Vulcan 308 lowers will work fine - I'd rather have one of those lowers than the Vulcan 223 lower. Many folks have built Hesse/Vulcan + Armalite upper CA-legal rifle and they run just fine.

BTW, I also tend not to listen to match rifle shooters about "who makes the best gun". I get more joy out of a regular production rifle shooting .80MOA and which I can throw into a Pelican and get bashed around on the airline,
than some pampered princess rifle that shoots slightly tigther groups but doesn't work well when a tad dirty, etc.

[bwiese]

I'm sorry to tell you this but, DPMS is the new standard.

Armalite is proprietary and has done everything to stifle .308 expansion in the market. They will not share or license technology, nor will they sell a .308 receiver branded with another company's name.

POF will be DPMS upper compatible and now that Fulton .308 is making gains, pretty soon Armalite will be considered the mid-priced option, leaving DPMS and Fulton with a growing share of the market.

Anyone who wants a 'high profile' name will insist on getting the SR-25. Armalite will seriously regret their marketing/business decisions not to allow expansion of their platform.


Yes, it may become the new 'standard' if Armalite continues to step on their marketing c*ck.

My comments are not about how well they're selling them, it's about how much I'd trust a new producer of a specialty rifle, vs one that's been selling 'em for past 14 years. Every new product has teething pains - as did Armalite, somewhat - but at least Armalite has an engineering team to deal with it. I don't think DPMS does (like I said before, I don't think DPMS has high-speed 10000fps cameras and FEA software - Armalite does.)

Also, at least in the rifle realm, all Armalite branded stuff seems pretty nice to me (I have a couple of *****es, but in general if you steer someone to an "ABC" rifle you have done them a service). Armalite seems to sell parts of the same quality that goes in their rifle(s).

By contrast, DPMS seems to be a glorified gunshow parts vendor that has to move outside their existing quality realm to produce a reliable, quality rifle. Their handling of the Leatherwood scope issues (old Leatherwood, not new Chinese junk ones) does not bode well.

[thmpr]

From what I have been researching on with DPMS, I agree with Mike (Xeno) on this. Armalite shot themelves in the foot by not marketing their product. With DPMS, they have seen that their is a major nitch in the 308 AR market thus allowing Fulton and POF to market their product. I have several friends in Oregon who has sold their AR10 for the DPMS SASS system due to the more accurarte DPMS. I just happy that we have more choices in the 308 AR market than just the Hesse....:D

[CALI-gula]

Well, I'll make you a deal - I'll get one and compare it to my AR10. I'll report back here after 3 years of use. :D

I just don't think these DPMS platforms are nearly as bad as you have vexed them. I would say they are about parallel to the Armalite and will likely improve upon current models.

And I would love to see anyone take a Hummer or Suburban (not that the current models are much different) to a LeMans style race course or take a Ferrari into the sands of Baja. Everything has its purpose and place. I have rarely seen a Ferrari prone to breakdown, but sure, you won't be off-roading with one any time soon.

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[xenophobe]

Yes, it may become the new 'standard' if Armalite continues to step on their marketing c*ck.

This statement was true a year ago. I think Armalite already lost this battle. Their constant refusal has made DPMS the new standard now.


By contrast, DPMS seems to be a glorified gunshow parts vendor that has to move outside their existing quality realm to produce a reliable, quality rifle. Their handling of the Leatherwood scope issues (old Leatherwood, not new Chinese junk ones) does not bode well.

Yes, that may have been true at one time, but DPMS still suffers from a bad reputation earned in the past that no matter how hard they try to shake, will keep.

For the longest time Denon was known as the $1 for 10 cassette tape manufacturer that half would be defective, even though in Europe they were known for high quality production studio audio equipment. It took them decades to shake off that reputation in the US consumer market, and whenever I still see an expensive Denon system, I still think of those 10c el-cheapo cassette tapes that would break or not work half of the time.

[stator]

Some clarification about Armalite. They really are Eagle Arms which has more lineage to LMT than Armalite. Eagle Arms only purchased the Armalite trademark in a deal with an ex-Armalite employee.

That employee, the last president of Armalite, probably won rights to the trademark through bankrupcy proceedings.

I do not know if Eagle Arms has gone through the procedures and cost for reforming their corporation from Eagle Arms to Armalite. I do suspect that Eagle Arms, Inc. is still the incorporated parent, with two divisions, Armalite and Eagle Arms.

If you buy an Armalite/Eagle Arms lower or upper, you are really buying an LMT lower/upper. A real good one, IMO, but nothing do to with the real Armalite starting as a division of Fairchild.

The real Armalite history is one of poor corporate decisions and financial ruins with a few excellent designs from Eugene Stoner and other nameless engineers who get too few credit.

[xenophobe]

The AR-10 is not an LMT OEM product. Armalite does indeed produce their own receivers, though at one time, they did contract LMT to produce the Eagle and Armalite 5.56 receivers.

I haven't seen any recent Eagle Arms or Armalite receivers to see if they're still manufactured by LMT, but I know their .308 forgings are not cut by LMT... if they are, LMT, nor ArmaLite will admit it.