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New Shooter II
02-06-2007, 6:51 PM
I am looking for information and opinions on the Wilson Combat Scattergun Technologies Remington 870.

What does everyone think?

timmy8151
02-06-2007, 7:30 PM
IMHO, Wilson's scatterguns are overpriced. They take a 870 Express, do a little polishing of the internals, throw parts that are easy to install and refinish the gun. For the money, I think you should go with a 870 Police and put on the parts yourself. You'll do it cheaper than Wilson and have a better base gun.

tedbeemer
02-06-2007, 7:46 PM
I've had a Vang Comp 870 for 10 years now, and have NEVER regretted getting one. I took a 40 hour tactical class with it, and was able to consistently hit a 6 inch wide metal plate at 90 yards with slugs from a kneeling position. Vang's are mainly legendary for their tight 00 patterns ( with Federal H132 Tactical 00 loads) due to the patented 'backboring" process of the barrel.

https://www.vangcomp.com/Home.html

MadMex
02-06-2007, 7:56 PM
If you don’t mind dropping the money, check out Vang:

https://www.vangcomp.com/Home.html

Here’s a thread that might provide further insight:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10285

Besides the stellar performance and durability of his builds, Hans is one hell of a great human being to do business with. Very service oriented.

1SGMAT
02-06-2007, 8:55 PM
Vang Comp is the best tactical shotgun out there. Mine shoots scary tight groups.

Its wierd to talk about groups from a shot gun but that is what the pattern looks like at 15 meters and is still crazy at 25.

Call Hans and you wont regret it

Teletiger7
02-06-2007, 9:51 PM
Build your own 870 scattergun: buy a police 870 and get all the parts from Wilson Combat. Guess what? you just saved yourself hundreds! And it's fun to put it together yourself. Plus, you'll know exactly how it all works if you ever need to repair it.

randy
02-06-2007, 11:15 PM
If you are going to build a ghetto blaster Vangs stuff is the best for the buck.

WilsonCQB
02-07-2007, 6:30 AM
+1 Vang Comp...or just get yourself a Benelli M4 for the same price.

elsolo
02-07-2007, 8:22 AM
Big D,
If you are planning on getting this shotty for multigun matches, you'll probubly want to really consider going with an autoloader. Pretty much all 3-gun shooters use either a Benelli or a Rem 1100/1187.

ocabj
02-07-2007, 8:28 AM
I'd just buy the basic 870 HD that's being sold in stores and buy ammo.

If you feel the need to mod, send the barrel to Vang for the VCS modifications. Ghost rings are nice, but optional. You can easily make fast and fairly precise shots with slugs and a bead sight. If you really want ghost rings, you can have them installed by a smith, or you can drill and tap it yourself. Big safety? Easy install. Sidesaddle? Easy install. Surefire foreend light? Easy install. Bright 'tactical' follower? Easy install.

The Remington 870 is a very simple design and is very easy to work on yourself.

SgtBulldog
02-07-2007, 10:11 AM
It's a pretty neat piece of weaponry, but expensive. If you can afford it, its exactly the type of mods you want, and you are willing to pay a premium for the time it would take to do the mods yourself, then go for it.

Wulf
02-08-2007, 6:54 PM
I'm not a big fan of Vang's work. Not for any lack of quality or effectiveness, but I question the utility of his mods for most peoples PDW needs.

The best (or worst depending on how you look at it) examples of his work that I've seen data for produce patterns that spread on the order of a 1/3 to 1/2 inch per yard. That's a 4-5 inch pattern at 10 yards, 11-16 inches at 30 yards, and 21 to 32 inches at 60 yards. Really, that's not much larger than the group size you'd expect a reasonably well trained person to fire with a rifle at similar ranges under pressure. So if you're not going to get any benifit from the dispersion of the shot package why not shoot a rifle to begin with; or just load the SG with slugs? I fully understand that the street sweaper effect is a myth. But at the same time a pattern that develops nicely within the anticipated range that the weapon is designed to be used within, will buy the shooter some fudge factor on the aiming side of the equation.

For instance, if you decide that a pattern at least 6 inches wide buys you enough aiming slack to be worth mentioning, and further that a pattern larger than 36 inches or so is too large to be useful, then a short barreld coach gun with a 4in/yd spread rate has an ideal range that begins at 2 yards and ends at 8 yards. A kind of normal cylinder bore riot SG with a spread rate of 1in/yd has an ideal range that begins at 6 yards and ends at 40 yards. An average Vang gun (based on the informal research I did a while back) will do 1/2 in/yard, and produce an ideal range that starts at 15 yards and ends at 80 yards. But historically 15 yards is a long civilian gun fight....80 yards borders on indefensible for a civilian. The far more likely scenario is the 2 to 10 yard deal where darkness and fast moving bodies will make a little aiming slack a good thing.

Now, if you're an LEO with an agency that doesnt issue rifles, or if for jurisdictional or PC reasons dont want to deal with a fighting rifle, the Vang system can give you much of the functionality of rifle from a buck fed SG. Of course feeding the SG with slugs give you much of the functionality of a rifle too.

Again, not saying the Vang system is bad, just that its not necessarily necessary or even desirable for a lot of people.

mike100
02-08-2007, 7:00 PM
I think the vang tubes will group tighter than regular bbl's, but 80 percent of it is ammo selection. You could shoot some buckshot with the newer style deep shot cups that hold the mass together after it leaves the bbl for tight groups, or switch to CYL bore shots with cheap unbuffered shot for the wide dispersion.

I have not personally tried a vang 870, but someone on the net shot loads that I asked him to out of his and posted his targets. the results were tighter, on average, than the same loads with my SG.

rorschach
02-08-2007, 8:15 PM
My closet shotty is a Wilson/Scattergun standard 870 w/ Surefire and for what I paid, I'm very pleased. There are comparable pumpguns available at a cheaper price, and you would not be poorly equipped with any of them. I like the 7-shot 870P as well.

meangreen
02-09-2007, 4:02 PM
For the same money spent on a Wilson 870, I would instead buy a Rem 870 Police with a Surefire Forend and spend the rest on top quality training.

Rob Haught comes first in my mind... Just my $0.02

rastro
02-11-2007, 10:30 PM
I went with the 870P w/ghostrings route ($400) and picked up the rest of the goodies cheap off various forums as they popped up. Total cost for my clone was around $650 instead of $1200.

Still goes boom, folks at the range cant tell the difference.

Spend the few hundred you save on ammo, and training.

rastro
02-11-2007, 10:30 PM
I went with the 870P w/ghostrings route ($400) and picked up the rest of the goodies cheap off various forums as they popped up. Total cost for my clone was around $650 instead of $1200.

Still goes boom, folks at the range cant tell the difference.

Spend the few hundred you save on ammo, and training.

ECVMatt
02-13-2007, 6:35 PM
And I feel they are worth the price. It is hands down the best shotgun out of all of ours. I am sure you can make your own and put it together for less, but I really like the craftsmenship of the WC. I will be owning my own soon and I will not feel like I have over spent a dime.

By shopping on the internet I found them for sale for about 850 for the model I am buying.

I say get it and you won't be let down.

Matt

mike100
02-13-2007, 7:18 PM
I'd rather get a real remington police..the WC scatterguns are built off of express models. I'd pay $100 extra to have them build one off a police model, personally.

ECVMatt
02-13-2007, 8:39 PM
I love to work on my Glocks.

I believe that WC only uses the steel reciever guns. I also read on their website they will only work on steel reciever guns for upgrading packages.

Not 100% though. I will check again.

Matt

ECVMatt
02-14-2007, 1:59 PM
We start with the express model, no need to pay more and charge you more for the police version as we change it up when we convert them.

Thanks
Larry


I can't seem to see what the difference between the two models is. Remington states that both are made of steel. Can anyone who is more enlightened help me out??


Thanks in advance.

Matt

randy
02-14-2007, 11:20 PM
It's not just the shot pattern in the Vang system but felt recoil is greatly reduced. That's a plus in anybodys book.

As far as smaller pattern hmmmmm does that mean more pellets on target? How can that be a bad thing?

If I had a need for a custom ghetto blaster I'd call Vang over Scat Gun. I'd be happy with a Rem 870 Wing master with a short barrel.
Good luck

Wulf
02-15-2007, 6:18 AM
It's not just the shot pattern in the Vang system but felt recoil is greatly reduced. That's a plus in anybodys book.

As far as smaller pattern hmmmmm does that mean more pellets on target? How can that be a bad thing?

Stopping power theory wrt to buck shot holds that a large part of what makes it work is multiple dispersed hits. If your shot package doesnt disperse much it should follow that there's not as much advantage. And if you're tight wad of shot isnt aimed in the right place, "more pellets on target" turns into "no pellets on target". You can port any shotgun to reduce felt recoil. Its part of vang's package but his forcing cone mods are why people send their gun in to Vang.

I think the best overview of the proper role of the SG comes from Gabe Suarez.

Gents,

A quick perspective. I've used a shotgun a number of times operationally. Here are a few observations and opinions.

1). I think the Modern technique of the shotgun is flawed in that it seeks to make the shotgun into a rifle. The shotgun is no more a rifle than the pistol is a rifle.

2). If the only weapon you have is a shotgun (hereafter SGN) then you can certainly configure it for long range but it will never do the job of a rifle. The shotgun is a weapon you take to an expected pistol fight.

3). If you intend to load with slugs exclusively, leave the SGN in the safe and employ the rifle instead. The rifle makes a better rifle and solves the tactical problems of the shotgun.

4). The forgiving nature of the shotgun's ammo (buckshot) allows you to obtain hits when no other weapon system would allow you to stay up with the tempo of events. Examples - darkness, shooting on the run, shooting at moving adversaries, etc.

5). Worrying about background is all well and good, but when they are shooting at you trying to kill you, the issue about background will never cross your mind.

6). A shotgun with buckshot can deliver a conclusive wound at CQB distances (mostly unsurvivable). As well, it can allow you to hit with a few pellets in deteriorating and dynamic situations.

7). Those of you who've been to the Interactive Training know what I mean. What you can do standing tall on the range with a shotgun is only marginally interesting. What can you do with it in a FOF situation? Suddenly things may not be as black and white, nor as clear as they are at the shooting school's drills.

Again guys, just a perspective. The farthest shotgun shooting I had was 15 yards with Winchester 00 12 pellet magnum. 9 pellets hit, 3 pellets continued into the ocean, 3 pellets traversed the adversary through-and-through. The closest was 5 feet (very conclusive indeed). The most dynamic was on the run in the dark in a South Central L.A. parking structure.

The problem with Vang's mods is is that if he does a really "good" job on your gun, it wont spred its shot package enough to "allow you to hit with a few pellets in deteriorating and dynamic situation" untill a range far beoynd where you're likely to employ the gun....and in fact, at a range where 33 caliber round ball has lost enough enegry to be of questionable use. The shotgun is at its core a compromise weapon. The vang forcing cone mods heavily bias the compromise towards the territory of the rifle. Too far IMHO.

MadMex
02-16-2007, 8:46 AM
There are merits to the spray ‘n pray use of a shotgun as well as the tighter pattern approach. It’s a debate as old as 1911 vs Glock.

As with any firearm – ammunition combination, know how they perform together, have reasonable expectations for the intended use, and train accordingly.

New Shooter II
02-17-2007, 6:55 AM
Thank you to everyone.

This has been a very interesting topic.

I am still leaning to the Scattergun, (Personal Preference).

Hope to have one soon.

stuckin
02-17-2007, 6:04 PM
i picked one up at the gun shop the other day. very smooth. i have the wilson CQB 1911 they make fine firearms
stuck

eviioiive
02-17-2007, 7:01 PM
or you can get a nova... i can keet 75% of slugs on an 8" disk at 200....

ECVMatt
02-20-2007, 2:55 PM
Keep us updated...

I am about 30 days away from getting a WC 870. Let us know how yours works out.

Matt

gunrun45
02-20-2007, 6:03 PM
+1 for vang comp. I have tried their LE model 14 inch barrel shotguns and have been astounded by their accuracy at 50 yards (far better than my stock 18 in tube with wilson ghost rings).

I forgot all about my shotty after they stopped letting me carry my own at work (new admin). I had plans on getting the Vancomp package with ports on my own barrel to save some dinero.

I would highly recomend this professionals work to anyone who expects true modern day performance from one of THE most versitile platforms of weaponry made today.

I have owned Wilsons also and they are second on my list, right behind Vangcomp. Wilson has very high quality but is overpriced IMO and you can get most of their parts through cheaper distributors like Brownells for cheaper and make the mods yourself over a greater time period to make it more affordable for us poor folk ;). Not EXACTLY the same but most of the major parts are just a swap away.

Edit: I just checked the vangcomp page and realized that they only charge $255 to mod your barrel (ports and back bore). Sounds like a heck of a good deal to me! I think I might have to give him a call when tax return time comes...

h.bowman
02-22-2007, 5:10 AM
I don't think this has been mentioned, but I just received a new catalog from Wilson Combat. This catalog, unlike their previous one, offers their version of the 870 with a Vang Comp barrel for $255 more. As I said, the previous catalog did not offer this. This is the route I'm going...WC 870 with WC mods but I'm going to add the $255 for the VC barrel.

xenophobe
02-22-2007, 4:36 PM
wow... Vang raised his prices... considerably. Oh well, guess demand drives prices...

proraptor
02-23-2007, 3:44 PM
A shotgun is a shotgun I can imagine paying that much for one....Well mayb if it was an auto

h.bowman
02-23-2007, 7:09 PM
A shotgun is a shotgun I can imagine paying that much for one....Well mayb if it was an auto

Well, just have it in your heart to forgive the rest of us who spend that much for a pump. :)

MadMex
02-23-2007, 7:23 PM
More pellets on target is obviously good, but the tighter group requires more precise aiming, which slows you down. That's the tradeoff.
Interesting. I’ve never bothered to aim more "precise" when switching between my Vang and my non Vang shotties. I’ve never experienced the “tradeoff”.

It's pretty straight forward. Acquire target, pull trigger, bang. What am I doing wrong?

You've shot a Vang. Do you own one?

New Shooter II
02-25-2007, 9:05 AM
I brought home my Wilson Scattergun 870. I will post pics soon.

SecondAmendmentgirl
01-30-2008, 3:01 PM
I brought home my Wilson Scattergun 870. I will post pics soon.

Thread ended here, it's been a year. Are you a happy camper?

Sgt Raven
01-30-2008, 3:13 PM
Thread ended here, it's been a year. Are you a happy camper?

I sent them a POS Rem 1100 that I had $125.00 into it and $495.00 latter I had a nice shotgun. Picked up a used Surefire fore-end w/light for $125.00 and I have a very nice home defense shotgun. I should have sent them my 870 for the basic rebuild when they first started do them and they were blowing them out cheap. ;)

BONECUTTER
01-30-2008, 3:21 PM
I love my Wilson..... I was going to build my own butt after all the parts is really wasn't that much more (And I was lazy)......plus I got it armor tuff-ed in OD green.

Vang Comp makes great shotguns....I shot one before I went Wilson but to have it set up the same as my Wilson it was $400.00 more. I just didn't want to spend that much.

Im happy with my Wilson and don't regret not going Vang Comp..... of course I now have the Benelli itch and gonna have to scrath soon.

SecondAmendmentgirl
01-30-2008, 3:56 PM
What time frame was that?

I sent them a POS Rem 1100 that I had $125.00 into it and $495.00 latter I had a nice shotgun. Picked up a used Surefire fore-end w/light for $125.00 and I have a very nice home defense shotgun. I should have sent them my 870 for the basic rebuild when they first started do them and they were blowing them out cheap. ;)

Sgt Raven
01-30-2008, 4:10 PM
What time from was that?

About 5-7 years ago. Found a abused Rem 1100 in Reno, bought it had it shipped here and DROSed it, then 6 months latter sent it to WC/SGT, where they lost track of it for a few months. Posted about my service from WC on an email web list that Bill Wilson was a part of, and all of a sudden the shotgun showed up finished. They cut down the barrel, milled the rib and pinned the front sight in it. I may have the only WC/SGT shotgun built with a ventilated rib barrel. :D :p

Paradiddle
01-30-2008, 7:42 PM
A shotgun is a shotgun I can imagine paying that much for one....Well mayb if it was an auto

Vang's are SUPER sweet to shoot - they stay on target far better then any semi or pump I've used - the porting really keeps the barrel down and the felt recoil nice and soft.