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View Full Version : Could this lead to future Tannerite arrests?


supersonic
10-04-2011, 2:06 PM
***SEE POST #11 BELOW AS WELL***


Hope this isn't a dupe:
http://www.pe.com/local-news/local-news-headlines/20110809-police-man-found-with-explosives-arrested.ece

***FIXED IT!!***

Rock6.3
10-04-2011, 2:07 PM
That page is no longer available...

cmaynes
10-04-2011, 2:08 PM
your link is bad....

bwiese
10-04-2011, 2:11 PM
Link breaky...

There has already been one Tannerite arrest/conviction of a very good active Calgunner.

It cost him $$$$$ good lawyering to get the charge down from a felony to some kind of misdemeanor
plea and he still got a 18(?) month gun prohibition. He almost missed the start of OLLism and was
afraid he might miss it.

Given the wide definition of destructive devices and constructive possession definition associated, the
fact that even a 'CO2 bomb' (dry ice, water, bottle) is a D.D., anyone possessing Tannerite or its
components in CA is highly highly unwise.

Yes, I know some of you have blown it up in CA with a Forest Ranger or sheriff watching. Do not get
your legal advice from Forest Rangers or Sheriffs: that's like getting medical advice from your plumber.

MasterYong
10-04-2011, 2:15 PM
???

I thought tannerite was legal in ca? They sell it at a local sporting goods store.

Does volume get you?

bwiese
10-04-2011, 2:17 PM
???

I thought tannerite was legal in ca? They sell it at a local sporting goods store.

Does volume get you?

Some dude in Oregan says it's legal in CA.

If he had an exemptive CA letter that somehow classed it as fireworks
I'm sure he'd post it. I know of no CA firearms lawyer that has been contacted about this.

Remember we already have at least one arrest & conviction.

It's not 'how much it goes boom', but if it goes boom at all (or you have the ready components thereof).

supersonic
10-04-2011, 2:28 PM
Ok, I fixed it (apparently the other one only lasted a few days).........

FWIW, sporting goods stores & even a police supply store (in California, of course) are now carrying exploding targets (same thing as Tannerite)...... Wonder how that happened & if they face criminal charges?

MasterYong
10-04-2011, 2:39 PM
I'm still really confused.

If this was so illegal, why the heck would the state allow countless retailers to sell it by the pound for years and years?

Why is it that every website willing to sell it will ship it to CA?

Did the DOJ somehow just now notice that this was being sold?

It's not like this is some new product, this has been sold and used (publicly) for ages. It's be like the DOJ suddenly deciding that propane is illegal in CA (with no new laws passed) just because it can be made into a bomb.

Effing confusing, to say the least.

Seriously, the sporting goods store in Eureka, CA sells it as "exploding targets." Granted, it's expensive as hell (way cheaper to just get it online)and in VERY small quantities, but it's actually SOLD as an explosive!

So, something's changed? Or is it that some jackass at the DOJ suddenly realized there was something fun out there that hadn't been forbidden by our overlords yet?

ETA: The article doesn't say he had tannerite...

FastFinger
10-04-2011, 2:40 PM
I'm no lawyer, and not up on the details of any laws concerning exploding targets, but in my experience the "But everyone else is speeding..." defense hasn't served me that well.

cmaynes
10-04-2011, 2:41 PM
Bill, I used 20 pounds of it out at Nellis AFB a couple of weeks ago on a job- as far as ATF goes, it is ok to use as an energetic target (which means freestanding)- if you enclose it in anything which can fragment, it is then considered an explosive device. The one restriction I am aware if with it is that it must be stored in an approved magazine.

we were also doing some bird bombs there and I think most vendors for those are requiring a Federal Explosives License to use those items-

http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to/become-an-fel.html

supersonic
10-04-2011, 2:50 PM
Okay, everyone.....here's what I found out: The reason the original link was "broken" (and the one I replaced it with was very vague & incomplete) is because the police *APPARENTLY* "made a mistake." The original story said that a 20-something male was arrested for having an assault weapon and potassium nitrate in his vehicle (he had just been shooting the exploding targets with at a local BLM range). A search of his residence was made and some other "items" were confiscated...including a package of TREE STUMP REMOVER. My guess is that the article, in its original form, was retracted because of some probable screw-ups by the police department & the media itself. Anyway, as it turns out, the guy was released and charges were dropped. ***He was found to be in possession of TANNERITE, which is being described now as "an exploding target that is sold at local stores." This is all I have heard at this point, but I will be making any corrections/adjustments if any of this is inaccurate.

I found a quote from a friend of his family:"So, this 22 year old that has been ran over by the drive by media is guilty of what? What are the facts? Turns out he is being released today without charge. He had a “Tanneright target” (that can be bought retail here in California) and a toilet paper roll filled with sugar and stump remover that was bought at Home Depo. So, he had a legally bought tanneright target and a homemade device that makes smoke? Sounds like Timothy McVay to me….. ;o) Anything to sell a story! Lets get the facts revealed about how he was not linked to the fire, yes they found what? Sugar and stump remover, ammo and “other” bad things?"

MasterYong
10-04-2011, 2:53 PM
I'm no lawyer, and not up on the details of any laws concerning exploding targets, but in my experience the "But everyone else is speeding..." defense hasn't served me that well.

If you're referring to my comments then your reading comprehension failed.

I'm not referring to an activity that is widely known to be illegal (speeding), I was referring to an activity that is widely known as legal.

HUGE difference.

You may as well have said "but everyone else is raping."

Please.

supersonic
10-04-2011, 2:59 PM
Does anybody have a link or info regarding all the facts of the case Bill speaks of regarding a Calgunner & Tannerite arrest/conviction? I'd like to hear how everything went down and if there were any other circumstances which resulted in the trouble.

Doheny
10-04-2011, 3:03 PM
Does anybody have a link or info regarding all the facts of the case Bill speaks of regarding a Calgunner & Tannerite arrest/conviction? I'd like to hear how everything went down and if there were any other circumstances which resulted in the trouble.

We had a thread going on when the original incident occurred. See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=464431).


.

FastFinger
10-04-2011, 3:48 PM
If you're referring to my comments then your reading comprehension failed.

I'm not referring to an activity that is widely known to be illegal (speeding), I was referring to an activity that is widely known as legal.

HUGE difference.

You may as well have said "but everyone else is raping."

Please.

Not referring to your post at all. In fact it wasn't even posted when I was composing my post.

At any rate the use of Tannerite is legally questionable. Reading Bill's posts it's pretty clear that at least one person was arrested and convicted for Tannerite. Also I've read the law, and it's very broad in it's definition of what constitutes an explosive device.

Ye, plenty of places sell it, but then quite a few places sell that bullet button defeating magnet thingy also.

In my youth I've had great times blowing up all sorts of stuff with all types of things that go BOOM, and Tannerite seems way fun to me, but I won't take the risk of losing my gun rights, or more, just for a bit of boom. If you want to - it's a free world, have a blast.

wildhawker
10-04-2011, 3:51 PM
We had a thread going on when the original incident occurred. See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=464431).

That's not the case Bill's talking about. If the person who lived through it desires or is willing to share any details I'm sure they will as they have always been very engaging and helpful.

-Brandon

gose
10-04-2011, 3:53 PM
You may as well have said "but everyone else is raping."

Please.


Maybe in Oakland...

sreiter
10-04-2011, 4:01 PM
What about thermite? Is it legal?

Doheny
10-04-2011, 4:01 PM
That's not the case Bill's talking about. If the person who lived through it desires or is willing to share any details I'm sure they will as they have always been very engaging and helpful.

-Brandon

My bad. The link provided was about the incident in the OP.


Sent from my iPhone

BigDogatPlay
10-04-2011, 4:06 PM
Not a lawyer but a lapsed LEO..... Tannerite falls into, I think, something of a vacuum in California for now. When a dry ice "bomb", which most of us know as nothing more than kind a cool noisemaker, can get you a rip for a DD violation then it stands to reason that an energetic DA in one of the 58 different counties could work possession of Tannerite into a DD conviction. We have proof of at least one Calgunner who got rogered for exactly that.

Remember back, if you will, to the thrilling days of yesteryear when the OLL battle was being waged in the trenches. CADoJ advice was (still is?) that it's up to the 58 DAs what is an is not legal in their counties. And unless or until someone gets popped for Tannerite and the case later gets tossed on appeal, creating a broader understanding of the law through the court's opinion, then Tannerite in any amount in California is something of a crapshoot. At least as I read the tea leaves.

The "it's legal to purchase" thing is a convenient ruse, IMO. Switchblades are, per se, legal to sell or purchase, but leaving the store with one in your pocket = violation of PC 653k.

There is also the matter of intent.... if you are blowing up little pre-made targets of tannerite that you bought in a store, most people might not care. If you are mixing up pounds of it, I can think of a lot of LEOs who would consider that a violation and book you.

Not trying to start an arguement, just throwing out an opinion.

bwiese
10-04-2011, 4:14 PM
Bill, I used 20 pounds of it out at Nellis AFB a couple of weeks ago on a job- as far as ATF goes, it is ok to use as an energetic target (which means freestanding)- if you enclose it in anything which can fragment, it is then considered an explosive device. The one restriction I am aware if with it is that it must be stored in an approved magazine.l (http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to/become-an-fel.html)

That's ATF/Fed law.

CA has its own DD laws in 12300 et seq.

Unless they got some exemption, I don't see how it's legal.

Small amounts in a matchbox may get under 'safe & sane' fireworks category.

Getting multi-pound A & B jugs and putting them together doesn't pass the smell test.

I think nobody pays attention til someone gets popped.

Here's the real test: would you take 1/2 pound of A and B and light it off in your hand? No? Then it's a no-go.

Some folks say "it's only a mild reaction and not a real explosive", but the above puts the lie to that - esp w/dry ice bombs being illegal too.

Also, separate possession of the A & B precursor compounds is constructive possession as codified in 12312.

Soldier415
10-04-2011, 4:28 PM
Do not get your legal advice from Forest Rangers or Sheriffs: that's like getting medical advice from your plumber.

Bill,

Thank you for my new sig :D

cdtx2001
10-04-2011, 4:40 PM
Okay, everyone.....here's what I found out: The reason the original link was "broken" (and the one I replaced it with was very vague & incomplete) is because the police *APPARENTLY* "made a mistake." The original story said that a 20-something male was arrested for having an assault weapon and potassium nitrate in his vehicle (he had just been shooting the exploding targets with at a local BLM range). A search of his residence was made and some other "items" were confiscated...including a package of TREE STUMP REMOVER. My guess is that the article, in its original form, was retracted because of some probable screw-ups by the police department & the media itself. Anyway, as it turns out, the guy was released and charges were dropped. ***He was found to be in possession of TANNERITE, which is being described now as "an exploding target that is sold at local stores." This is all I have heard at this point, but I will be making any corrections/adjustments if any of this is inaccurate.

I found a quote from a friend of his family:"So, this 22 year old that has been ran over by the drive by media is guilty of what? What are the facts? Turns out he is being released today without charge. He had a “Tanneright target” (that can be bought retail here in California) and a toilet paper roll filled with sugar and stump remover that was bought at Home Depo. So, he had a legally bought tanneright target and a homemade device that makes smoke? Sounds like Timothy McVay to me….. ;o) Anything to sell a story! Lets get the facts revealed about how he was not linked to the fire, yes they found what? Sugar and stump remover, ammo and “other” bad things?"

Glad it worked out for the kid, but it sounds like he got lucky.

He's gotta learn that anything fun in CA is pretty much illegal.

ShooterDK
10-04-2011, 6:05 PM
"Tree Stump Remover" is potassium nitrate. I'm confused???

supersonic
10-04-2011, 6:08 PM
Juat a note: this story is nothing I "discovered," as it already appeared on CGN back in August, when the incident took place. Also, the kid was released within a day or two, so this is really kinda old news. I am really good at duping & regurgitating old information...it's like a dirty, nasty habit of mine...:facepalm: I just happened to run across it today and thought it merited discussion on here. Carry on....or not.

"Tree Stump Remover" is potassium nitrate. I'm confused???

What's confusing? The incident was reported that potassium nitrate was found in the guy's vehicle, and tree stump remover was found at his home. So they are the same thing. O.K., and?

Doheny
10-04-2011, 6:16 PM
Juat a note: this story is nothing I "discovered," as it already appeared on CGN back in August, when the incident took place. Also, the kid was released within a day or two, so this is really kinda old news. I am really good at duping & regurgitating old information..

And you used caps, bold, italic and underline like you were pleading for your life.

.

NeuTag
10-04-2011, 7:17 PM
"Tree Stump Remover" is potassium nitrate. I'm confused???
Just goes to show some cops should remain in traffic control, especially the bomb 'expert' in Riverside.
Its neat to see the police dropped the charges after they got over their adrenaline high. Too bad the paper didn't update their story and video.

On the otherhand, I couldn't even get tree stump remover to work on a tree stump in my backyard. Too much water would leech up the roots. And the Mythbuster couldn't get it to work in making gunpowder on their Star Trek show. My '20th Century Formulas' book copyright 1940 says you have to use high molarity sulfuric acid to dry the mix.

BTW:This was a dupe....original here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6928072) from August 9.

supersonic
10-04-2011, 8:28 PM
And you used caps, bold, italic and underline like you were pleading for your life.

.

Oh my, font-sensitive, are you? Well then I'll change it back just for you. Anyway, as it appears you were late to the party, the "life-pleading":rolleyes: bold & italics was used because the first post (the OP/mine) had some problems with links & information, so I attempted to do something that stood out a bit to catch the reader's eye. Unfortunately, though, there will always be someone that must squeal like weenies on the BBQ over it.:p

BTW:This was a dupe....original here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6928072) from August 9.

BTW, your link ^here^ is a dupe of post #14 above (which was actually a mistake of another dupe..........)

Doheny
10-04-2011, 8:30 PM
Oh my, font-sensitive, are you? Well then I'll change it back just for you.

Late to the party? I posted within an hour of your OP!

Thank YOU very much!

:43:

.

bwiese
10-04-2011, 8:36 PM
Does anybody have a link or info regarding all the facts of the case Bill speaks of regarding a Calgunner & Tannerite arrest/conviction? I'd like to hear how everything went down and if there were any other circumstances which resulted in the trouble.

This was told to me directly by the individual Calgunner who requested privacy from me.

He's a real good guy that's helped many many Calgunnners and "didn't have other drama".

supersonic
10-04-2011, 8:40 PM
This was told to me directly by the individual Calgunner who requested privacy from me.

He's a real good guy that's helped many many Calgunnners and "didn't have other drama".

Well, that's totally understandable. Gotta' keep our word/honor! It is too bad that we don't have some kind of case to refer to, however. Oh well, maybe in time.

yellowfin
10-04-2011, 8:41 PM
Can we please erase this thread so the communist ****sticks in Albany don't get wind of this? I get 5 months of winter here already, don't own a Kalashnikov or Makarov yet, and the vodka isn't as good here, so please don't help them make this place more worse than Russia than it already is.

sreiter
10-04-2011, 8:59 PM
Anyone way in on thermite?

FatalKitty
10-04-2011, 9:19 PM
I buy it at my local ammo dealer that is owned by the local PD - I shoot it pretty much all the time.

CADOJ feel free to come find me.

Falstaff
10-04-2011, 10:03 PM
This was told to me directly by the individual Calgunner who requested privacy from me.

He's a real good guy that's helped many many Calgunnners and "didn't have other drama".

OK our source is a "real good calgunner"... ok, fine. the case and its disposition should be public record, what county was this "real good calgunner" from? I guess if we Tannerize in the other 57 counties we'll be OK?

Target indicators are LEGAL guys, I dont know why Bwiese hates them so much, but they are legal and sold in many sporting goods/gun stores in CA not to mention mail order. Maybe he thinks they lend some sort of negative connotation to the firearms cause? (Like open carry?)

bwiese
10-04-2011, 10:45 PM
OK our source is a "real good calgunner"... ok, fine. the case and its disposition should be public record, what county was this "real good calgunner" from? I guess if we Tannerize in the other 57 counties we'll be OK?


Target indicators are LEGAL guys, I dont know why Bwiese hates them so much, but they are legal and sold in many sporting goods/gun stores in CA not to mention mail order. Maybe he thinks they lend some sort of negative connotation to the firearms cause? (Like open carry?)

The case is in LA county.

Please read 12301 and up and tell me how gallon jugs of a contained explosive pass muster.

"Target indicators" = jugs of explosives?? Nahh, won't fly. Please think of the smell test.

I'd love to be informed of any specific exemption for Tannerite under a fireworks exemption etc.

That's like calling bank robbery an 'misdocumented withdrawal'.

A matchbox with a bit of Tannerite that pops when hit by a round? That might fly - but that's the *item*, not the explosive in mass quantities.

Separated A & B components of explosives are illegal via constructive possession.

Please think of the smell test. Someone shows a big fireball and smoke and gas expansion in video and you're toast.

If you play with Tannerite, please have $20K in the bank to try and defend yourself down to a misdemeanor and possibly recover your gunrights after a period of time.

DOJ auditors inspectors at FFLs likely aren't looking for this since they're looking at the guns and the books, and hell - they could well not know either.

Your money, your arse.

I would love to be proved wrong, but we have one person already WITH CLEAN BACKGROUND AND VERY GOOD LAWYER that got out by skin of his teeth.

bwiese
10-04-2011, 10:47 PM
I buy it at my local ammo dealer that is owned by the local PD - I shoot it pretty much all the time.

CADOJ feel free to come find me.

Very stupid to tempt them.
Keep $20K spare cash in your discretionary account plus some for bail.

sreiter
10-04-2011, 10:49 PM
Anyone weigh in on thermite?

ivsamhell
10-04-2011, 11:18 PM
Anyone weigh in on thermite?

it's legal, unless theres something tied to intent/use. it's used for welding regularly.

Anchors
10-05-2011, 12:09 AM
"Tree Stump Remover" is potassium nitrate. I'm confused???

Yes, which can be used to make explosives.
Ammonium nitrate (fertilizer, instant freezer packs) is more commonly used in more serious "improvised" explosives (Oklahoma City Bombing).

Potassium nitrate, as the article suggests, is more commonly made to make pretty sweet smoke bombs. It can be used in explosives though.
A friend and I used to make those smoke bombs as a youngster, they say a pound of it can fill a city block haha.

I like this part the most though:
Sheriff's deputies later descended on the family's Cherry Valley home, where Bruce Borynack said he was pushed down when he demanded a search warrant.
Is everything an "extingent circumstance" these days? The courts need to clean up the 4A worse than they need to clean up the 2A...

Wherryj
10-05-2011, 9:01 AM
Oh, my. He had 2 pounds of tree stump remover. I wonder if I can be hit with MWD charges for the 5 pounds of dwarf fescue grass seed that I have in my shed?

FatalKitty
10-05-2011, 9:47 AM
The case is in LA county.

Please read 12301 and up and tell me how gallon jugs of a contained explosive pass muster.

"Target indicators" = jugs of explosives?? Nahh, won't fly. Please think of the smell test.

I'd love to be informed of any specific exemption for Tannerite under a fireworks exemption etc.

That's like calling bank robbery an 'misdocumented withdrawal'.

A matchbox with a bit of Tannerite that pops when hit by a round? That might fly - but that's the *item*, not the explosive in mass quantities.

Separated A & B components of explosives are illegal via constructive possession.

Please think of the smell test. Someone shows a big fireball and smoke and gas expansion in video and you're toast.

If you play with Tannerite, please have $20K in the bank to try and defend yourself down to a misdemeanor and possibly recover your gunrights after a period of time.

DOJ auditors inspectors at FFLs likely aren't looking for this since they're looking at the guns and the books, and hell - they could well not know either.

Your money, your arse.

I would love to be proved wrong, but we have one person already WITH CLEAN BACKGROUND AND VERY GOOD LAWYER that got out by skin of his teeth.

read post #11
looks as though we have a young guy with what I would call an improvised explosive device (compound in a toilet paper roll) being arrested and RELEASED WITH NO CHARGES FILED.

I don't fear shooting these targets at BLM is a bad thing at all

Falstaff
10-05-2011, 10:28 AM
I'd love to be informed of any specific exemption for Tannerite under a fireworks exemption etc.

Two words:

Black Powder

bwiese
10-05-2011, 10:53 AM
Two words:

Black Powder

Tannerite is not black powder (nor BP substitute).

Gunpowder is specifically exempted.

oso grande
10-05-2011, 11:29 AM
"Tree Stump Remover" is potassium nitrate. I'm confused???

Potassium nitrate is the main component (usually about 98%) of tree stump remover, as it accelerates the natural decomposition of the stump by supplying nitrogen for the fungi attacking the wood of the stump.
It's not an explosive.

sreiter
10-05-2011, 11:36 AM
it's legal, unless theres something tied to intent/use. it's used for welding regularly.

Thx. It's tough to weld with if your mixing it yourself, as opposed to a welding stick. Wondered if hav,ing the raw materials, or it mixed, or mixed with silly puddy is a DD . Intent is just to have fun turning scrap metal into molten steel. Or whatever

medson
10-05-2011, 11:49 AM
You have to ask yourself, is it worth it?

I'm a lurker on this site but finally feel compelled to post up.

With respect to Tannerite, there is no doubt it explodes with a great deal of force. Depending on the amount, you can send a BBQ into orbit. If you get the wrong police officer watching you or a prosecuter trying to make a name for himself you can end up in a ton of trouble. You will end up in front of a judge with a lawyer you are paying $250/hour arguing statutory interpretation and trying to split hairs. The matter may go up on appeal. The end result is you loose your freedom, get a ding on your record or you end up free but bankrupt from legal fees. Is tannerite fun? Yes. Is it worth the potential headache? Not really.

ME

Midian
10-05-2011, 5:32 PM
What about thermite? Is it legal?


Only if you use it in Manhattan on skyscrapers.

cdtx2001
10-05-2011, 7:50 PM
it's legal, unless theres something tied to intent/use. it's used for welding regularly.

I love thermite!!!! It get's a weld job done in spectacular style and comes with a free light show.

EOD Guy
10-06-2011, 5:54 AM
Potassium nitrate is the main component (usually about 98%) of tree stump remover, as it accelerates the natural decomposition of the stump by supplying nitrogen for the fungi attacking the wood of the stump.
It's not an explosive.

He also had it mixed with sugar. A potassium nitrate and sugar mixture will detonate when confined. There are several different methods that will initiate the mixture. Granted, any explosion will be a mechanical explosion rather than a chemical explosion, but the resulting fragmentation will still kill or injure.

I have made several different incendiary and explosive devices with that compound when I taught an IED course at the Naval EOD School.

Anchors
10-06-2011, 7:21 PM
This arrest was kind of silly.
They can tell the difference between a guy shooting targets and a dirtbag trying to go Oklahoma City on everyone just by what they found.
I wish the Fourth Amendment still mattered.

He also had it mixed with sugar. A potassium nitrate and sugar mixture will detonate when confined. There are several different methods that will initiate the mixture. Granted, any explosion will be a mechanical explosion rather than a chemical explosion, but the resulting fragmentation will still kill or injure.

I have made several different incendiary and explosive devices with that compound when I taught an IED course at the Naval EOD School.

Yeah. Normally that is a smoke bomb (and still is inside a toilet paper roll as far as I'm concerned).
But contained in something like glass for instance, it could make a pressure bomb.

So can pool cleaner, tin foil, and a plastic bottle. They can't just hit everyone with DD/explosive criminal charges for this household crap haha.

Patrick Aherne
10-06-2011, 9:52 PM
This is kind of ridiculous.
They can tell the difference between a guy shooting targets and a dirtbag trying to go Oklahoma City on everyone just by what they found.
I wish the Fourth Amendment still mattered.



Please tell me how the Fourth Amendment was violated.