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View Full Version : Lane v. Holder: Out of state handgun purchasing - Appeal


hoffmang
10-03-2011, 11:04 PM
Today the opening brief (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/lane/Lane-Appelants-Opening-Brief-2011-10-03.pdf) in the appeal of Lane v. Holder was filed. This case came about because DC lost it's only transfer FFL to a lost lease. SAF/Gura sued DC, VA, and the US over the out of state restriction on handgun sales and possession transfer. The District Court denied the preliminary injunction on standing grounds. In the interim, DC decided to fold and has changed its law to allow DC residents to purchase handguns from any FFL as long as they go through the background check process they already had to go through with in DC FFLs anyway.

I count this as the third time that DC has run away from Mr. Gura. It's almost like they're becoming reasonable.

-Gene

CaliforniaCarry
10-04-2011, 12:08 AM
Does that mean the case is moot?

If so, then sad times. I was really looking forward to the results this could have nationwide.

Maestro Pistolero
10-04-2011, 12:23 AM
Does that mean the case is moot?

If so, then sad times. I was really looking forward to the results this could have nationwide.

No. The appeal has just begun, and this is the opening brief.

Kharn
10-04-2011, 2:47 AM
I count this as the third time that DC has run away from Mr. Gura. It's almost like they're becoming reasonable.

-GeneTheir roster attempt and what was the second time?

press1280
10-04-2011, 3:04 AM
Their roster attempt and what was the second time?

Maybe it was when DC allowed the only FFL in the city to set up shop in the PD headquarters until he finds another location?

I believe the problem in the case now lies with VA, who won't sell directly to any non-VA resident. DC's FFL was only doing transfers and charging over 100 bucks a pop last I heard.

Ubermcoupe
10-04-2011, 11:42 AM
I count this as the third time that DC has run away from Mr. Gura. It's almost like they're becoming reasonable.

-Gene

:rofl:

yellowfin
10-04-2011, 12:10 PM
I count this as the third time that DC has run away from Mr. Gura. It's almost like they're becoming reasonable.

-GeneDoes this show that Mr. Gura has something Mr. Halbrook doesn't, and if so, could the latter be able to learn it?

wildhawker
10-04-2011, 12:33 PM
Does this show that Mr. Gura has something Mr. Halbrook doesn't, and if so, could the latter be able to learn it?

Yes on former, and you simply cannot teach some tricks irrespective of how young or old the dog might be.

-Brandon

hoffmang
10-04-2011, 12:48 PM
Maybe it was when DC allowed the only FFL in the city to set up shop in the PD headquarters until he finds another location?
This.
Does this show that Mr. Gura has something Mr. Halbrook doesn't, and if so, could the latter be able to learn it?
Gura's cases are single (or nearly) subject matter. You can see the problem with Halbrook's strategy in the Heller II decision today.

-Gene

Librarian
10-04-2011, 12:58 PM
Does this show that Mr. Gura has something Mr. Halbrook doesn't, and if so, could the latter be able to learn it?

Yes on former, and you simply cannot teach some tricks irrespective of how young or old the dog might be.

-Brandon

And this diminishes my opinion of Halbrook's effectiveness as a litigator. I had earlier held the opinion that, working in a pre-Heller environment, his efforts had been handicapped. Something in the case did not 'sell' well, even if the luck of the draw of the panel simply went against him. I don't think this is over, but I would have preferred it would be DC appealing the decision.

krucam
11-07-2011, 2:43 PM
Virginia AG Response and US AG Response (they will be separate) are due today. So far, the VA AG has their response to the Complaint filed with the 4th Circuit.

I await the US Atty Gen response due to the 18 U.S.C. 922 implications...

OleCuss
11-08-2011, 6:29 AM
I'm hoping for some additional responses. IANAL and I do not know the case well at all - but I found the above response to be pretty well written and argued.

Somewhat discouraging since I did not see the holes in their logic for denying standing. That doesn't mean they are not there - it means I didn't see them.

So if someone would care to brighten my day by telling me that my reading of that argument is all washed up, I'd appreciate it!

krucam
11-08-2011, 6:50 AM
The VA response relies upon the US response and their defense of the controlling 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3), aka GCA-68. VA is trying to weasel out of the fight, not having seen the US response, but the fact is there is a VA law prohibiting a DC resident from buying a handgun in VA, in addition to the Federal Law.

The US response came in as well last night, albeit late. The US AG MUST defend 922. I've not had a chance to digest/read yet...

OleCuss
11-08-2011, 7:25 AM
Thank you for the response - and the additional link! Most helpful.

loather
11-08-2011, 9:21 AM
Wouldn't it be nice if we could can all of 922 with this lawsuit? Optimistic, wishful thinking, but getting rid of the sporting purposes garbage and the importation bans once and for all would be sweet.

Baby steps, though: once we get state residency removed as a condition of sale, the roster and waiting periods are effectively nullified as long as you're willing to travel out-of-state to make a purchase. I know I would be!

Smokeybehr
11-08-2011, 4:01 PM
There seems to be an underlying thread in all of these non-resident cases: The defendant State wants to do their own background checks using their own form and their own procedures, and they allegedly can't do it for a non-resident because they're not in the "system". I thought that the NICS was tied into the database that accessed all of the various state systems in order to determine eligibility to purchase a firearm, negating the need to check each individual database.

krucam
11-08-2011, 4:01 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if we could can all of 922 with this lawsuit? Optimistic, wishful thinking, but getting rid of the sporting purposes garbage and the importation bans once and for all would be sweet.

Baby steps, though: once we get state residency removed as a condition of sale, the roster and waiting periods are effectively nullified as long as you're willing to travel out-of-state to make a purchase. I know I would be!

There are roughly 5 active Civil cases out there, all chipping away at 922:
Lane (handguns), Schrader (2 year misdemeanor), Enos (Lautenberg MCDV), Dearth (US Resident living abroad), Jennings/McGraw (18-20yo)

command_liner
11-08-2011, 5:20 PM
There seems to be an underlying thread in all of these non-resident cases: The defendant State wants to do their own background checks using their own form and their own procedures, and they allegedly can't do it for a non-resident because they're not in the "system". I thought that the NICS was tied into the database that accessed all of the various state systems in order to determine eligibility to purchase a firearm, negating the need to check each individual database.

NICS means what?
NATIONAL instant check system?
If it is NATIONAL, the whole rational for "cannot check that other state"
seems to be a full-on lie.

yellowfin
11-08-2011, 7:29 PM
^ Every single one of their excuses in all ~50 cases is a full on lie. It's really getting irritating seeing courts not calling it for what it is. Will Rogers had it just about right: every time they talk about the law it's a lie, and every time they tell a lie it's the law.

dantodd
11-08-2011, 7:57 PM
There seems to be an underlying thread in all of these non-resident cases: The defendant State wants to do their own background checks using their own form and their own procedures, and they allegedly can't do it for a non-resident because they're not in the "system". I thought that the NICS was tied into the database that accessed all of the various state systems in order to determine eligibility to purchase a firearm, negating the need to check each individual database.

The rationale about not being able to perform an adequate background check was mostly from the legislative history of 922 and it was from 1968. Sometimes technology changes what passes rational basis and maybe even intermediate scrutiny. With NICS and interstate wants and warrants etc. I don't think there is any way to use an inability to adequately verify the buyer isn't prohibited as justification for the law.

wilit
11-08-2011, 8:22 PM
I count this as the third time that DC has run away from Mr. Gura. It's almost like they're becoming reasonable.


Have they paid him for Heller yet? I'm guessing they don't want to add to that bill.

Jason P
11-08-2011, 8:48 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if we could can all of 922 with this lawsuit? Optimistic, wishful thinking, but getting rid of the sporting purposes garbage and the importation bans once and for all would be sweet.

Baby steps, though: once we get state residency removed as a condition of sale, the roster and waiting periods are effectively nullified as long as you're willing to travel out-of-state to make a purchase. I know I would be!

Oh, I've got a wish list a mile long for going out of state:) The stupid roster, high AR prices, all done! HA!

chris12
11-09-2011, 3:45 PM
The conduct regulated by these provisions falls outside the scope of the Second Amendment, which does not address the ability to sell or purchase firearms in any particular forum

So I guess we should only be allowed to buy books from federally licensed book dealers within our own state too. :facepalm:

krucam
01-17-2012, 3:44 PM
Catching up a little bit...just before New Years a proposed window for Oral Arguments was put out, conflicts were to be made by 1/9/12.

12/30/2011 34 CASE TENTATIVELY CALENDARED for oral argument during the 3/20/12 - 3/23/12 argument session. Notify Clerk's Office of any scheduling conflict by: 01/09/2012 [11-1847] (JLE)


Nordyke, Peterson & Lane are all scheduled to have Oral Arg's during the week of 3/19.

01/09/2012 35 NOTICE RE: CONFLICT WITH PROPOSED ARGUMENT DATES by Appellants Michelle Lane, Second Amendment Foundation, inc., Amanda Welling and Matthew Welling. Argument Session: 03/12 Days you are available: 3/21/12-3/23/12 Other scheduling information: Not available 3/20 owing to 2pm argument 3/19 in Denver, Colo. [11-1847] Alan Gura

What is SAF & Gura doing in Denver with Gray's case???

wildhawker
01-17-2012, 3:57 PM
What is SAF & Gura doing in Denver with Gray's case???

CGF/SAF are arguing as amicus.

-Brandon

safewaysecurity
01-17-2012, 4:00 PM
Will there be audio available for all 3?

sreiter
01-18-2012, 4:38 PM
^ Will Rogers had it just about right: every time they talk about the law it's a lie, and every time they tell a lie it's the law.

sig worthy

press1280
01-18-2012, 5:09 PM
Will there be audio available for all 3?

Pretty sure Peterson and Nordyke will. Don't know about Lane.

Gray Peterson
01-18-2012, 8:17 PM
What is SAF & Gura doing in Denver with Gray's case???

:43: :whistling:

Actually, what wildhawker said.

If there was ever a question as to why CGF is helping a case against Colorado (other than the fact that California LTC holders cannot carry in Denver, CO while visiting there), let the above answer the question to your satisfaction.

Funtimes
01-18-2012, 11:54 PM
Wow so we got Nordyke, Gray, and our case here all in the same week.... should be fun!

hoffmang
01-19-2012, 4:40 PM
Wow so we got Nordyke, Gray, and our case here all in the same week.... should be fun!

It's shaping up to be a wild week. To confirm, Alan will be arguing as SAF/CGF Amicus counsel in Denver.

-Gene

HowardW56
01-19-2012, 8:02 PM
It's shaping up to be a wild week. To confirm, Alan will be arguing as SAF/CGF Amicus counsel in Denver.

-Gene

Will there be someone in the courtroom posting updates?

Funtimes
01-19-2012, 9:02 PM
Will there be someone in the courtroom posting updates?

We can't do updates here in Hawaii. All electronics are completely banned from the courthouse. I can't even bring my laptop to assist with documentation and notes.

monk
01-19-2012, 9:34 PM
We can't do updates here in Hawaii. All electronics are completely banned from the courthouse. I can't even bring my laptop to assist with documentation and notes.

Sounds like someone should learn shorthand lol.

hoffmang
01-19-2012, 11:31 PM
Will there be someone in the courtroom posting updates?

We're not sure who will be attending and what Denver court rules are so maybe.

-Gene

Funtimes
01-20-2012, 9:16 PM
Sounds like someone should learn shorthand lol.

I actually *write* on my laptop =/... its a tablet.

Purple K
04-05-2012, 7:28 PM
Any updates?

hoffmang
04-05-2012, 10:58 PM
Any updates?

Oral argument should be scheduled soon. It was on calendar and then removed temporarily by the Court.

-Gene

Purple K
04-05-2012, 11:35 PM
Thank You