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SB23hater
10-02-2011, 3:28 PM
Hi All.

I just got my Costco safe.

I don't have the tools to drill the holes in cement and knowledge on what bolts to use.

I really need your advise/help.

Do you guys/ladies know of a good installer for a cheap price?

Or maybe give me info on how to do this on my own without buying tools.

http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp73442%3Enu%3D9353%3E857%3E25%3A%3EWS NRCG%3D3453%3C6%3C98934%3Bnu0mrj

Biff...
10-02-2011, 3:37 PM
I would do it myself, why pay someone for a simple job. Buy a nice drill and a good
Concrete Drill Bit, in the end you have a nice tool and the satisfaction of job well done.

AG166
10-02-2011, 3:56 PM
If worse comes to worse, you can rent a roto-drill from Lowes or Home Depot and use a masonry bit to drill the hole. Check your directions in the safe to see what size drill bit you need and what size concrete anchors you need also. Usually takes about a half hour from start to finish.

sammy
10-02-2011, 4:56 PM
I am in Concord and have a concrete drill you can use. You will need a bit that is the right size for the bolts you are using. They have conccrete anchors that are made for this at the hardware store. PM me if interested, Sammy

Maddog5150
10-02-2011, 5:19 PM
Drop in bolts or anchor bolts. I've used the anchor bolts in my last garage after moving and putting the safe in doors, I used drop in so the stud wouldnt stick up if I ever moved it.
I will tell you this. Use PREMIUM bits on a hammer bit. Dont go cheap because they burn out really quick. You will need at least two bits for four holes. I've burned out a lot of bits my first time around and found out the best lube to use is water to keep the but from burning up. If someone else here knows better, please chime in because I would like to know :)
Go in a little bit, pull out, wet it, repeat. (thats what she said) and clean out your holes before putting your bolt in. I also put a little bit of construction adhesive in the hole before putting in the bolt but some dont think its needed.

GMG
10-02-2011, 8:10 PM
Make sure your slab doesn't have tension cables!

Synergy
10-02-2011, 8:27 PM
Drop in bolts or anchor bolts. I've used the anchor bolts in my last garage after moving and putting the safe in doors, I used drop in so the stud wouldnt stick up if I ever moved it.
I will tell you this. Use PREMIUM bits on a hammer bit. Dont go cheap because they burn out really quick. You will need at least two bits for four holes. I've burned out a lot of bits my first time around and found out the best lube to use is water to keep the but from burning up. If someone else here knows better, please chime in because I would like to know :)
Go in a little bit, pull out, wet it, repeat. (thats what she said) and clean out your holes before putting your bolt in. I also put a little bit of construction adhesive in the hole before putting in the bolt but some dont think its needed.

You must have got some bad bits. I have a Hilti hammer drill with Hilti or Bosch bits and I have drilled quite a few holes on the same bit. Also blow out the dust from the hole before setting your anchors

Synergy
10-02-2011, 8:30 PM
Make sure your slab doesn't have tension cables!

Some slabs have been post-tensioned. The slab will be marked in the garage. I have not seen a post-tension slab in CA, its quite common in AZ.

You will see something like this:

http://www.realphoenixliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/post-tension-slab.jpg

Carsgunsandchics
10-02-2011, 9:03 PM
Some slabs have been post-tensioned. The slab will be marked in the garage. I have not seen a post-tension slab in CA, its quite common in AZ.

You will see something like this:

http://www.realphoenixliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/post-tension-slab.jpg

They have become quite common here in the last 10 years.


Don't go cheap on the concrete anchors.

SB23hater
10-03-2011, 6:27 AM
Thank you all you have give advise.

What is the best Concrete Anchor to use?

Gem1950
10-03-2011, 6:56 AM
Home Depot is a Hilti dealer and they usually have a Hilti person on site to assist you. Know the size you need and they'll do the rest for you.

SB23hater
10-03-2011, 9:07 AM
Thx Sammy.. I will let you know.

I am in Concord and have a concrete drill you can use. You will need a bit that is the right size for the bolts you are using. They have conccrete anchors that are made for this at the hardware store. PM me if interested, Sammy

Kodemonkey
10-03-2011, 9:18 AM
Some slabs have been post-tensioned. The slab will be marked in the garage. I have not seen a post-tension slab in CA, its quite common in AZ.



I think most newer houses would have them (post 94 earthquake). I am nearly certain it is the code now - else the cheapskate builders that built my house wouldn't have done it.

By the way,my garage does not have the placard on the concrete but I know it is there. I had to sign a bunch of paperwork acknowledging that I understood I had a post tension slab when I bought the house.

SB23hater
10-03-2011, 9:29 AM
Good info.

My house was built in 2000 KB Homes. I will have to take a look at the paper work.

I think most newer houses would have them (post 94 earthquake). I am nearly certain it is the code now - else the cheapskate builders that built my house wouldn't have done it.

By the way,my garage does not have the placard on the concrete but I know it is there. I had to sign a bunch of paperwork acknowledging that I understood I had a post tension slab when I bought the house.

Zartan
10-03-2011, 10:59 AM
My house is 7months old, and it has the Post-Tension warning stamp. It's a Shea home

ivsamhell
10-03-2011, 11:58 AM
Always drill all the way through the slab, whenever setting anchor bolts. When the time comes to make changes you can just knock them through and even use the same holes if needed. One bit should be just fine, I've drilled probably into the thousands on one.

kemasa
10-03-2011, 12:23 PM
If you put enough weight in the safe (lot of guns and ammo), it would be difficult to move and if someone moves it, it will be cause they are going to do it no matter what you do. Yes, it will be safer if you bolt it down, but how much of a difference would it really make? If you live in a bad area, perhaps it would be a better idea.

ivsamhell
10-03-2011, 12:36 PM
If you put enough weight in the safe (lot of guns and ammo), it would be difficult to move and if someone moves it, it will be cause they are going to do it no matter what you do. Yes, it will be safer if you bolt it down, but how much of a difference would it really make? If you live in a bad area, perhaps it would be a better idea.

They are really easy to move(a dolly, or roll it on anything round) or even break into if not bolted down. Burglars tend to grab what they can quickly, a bolted down safe is not remotely quick to remove.

Kodemonkey
10-03-2011, 12:38 PM
If you put enough weight in the safe (lot of guns and ammo), it would be difficult to move and if someone moves it, it will be cause they are going to do it no matter what you do. Yes, it will be safer if you bolt it down, but how much of a difference would it really make? If you live in a bad area, perhaps it would be a better idea.

Because of my post tension slab, that was what I was forced to do. My safe weighs around 1300lbs empty. I keep as much ammo as I can afford in it to help weigh it down. My guess is it is pushing 2000lbs at this point. I'm pretty sure I can knock it over, but thieves would have to move a lot of stuff to get the safe out of the garage. Not impossible, but the garage is alarmed and we have private security on my street. Couple that with a pretty good neighborhood watch with people that are home during the day and I feel pretty secure about it. Not going to stop a really determined criminal, but it is the best I can do given my limitations.

Bolting down a safe doesn't guarantee anything either. If they can get leverage on a tall safe they can snap the bolts off.

kemasa
10-03-2011, 12:46 PM
They are really easy to move(a dolly, or roll it on anything round) or even break into if not bolted down. Burglars tend to grab what they can quickly, a bolted down safe is not remotely quick to remove.

Yes, easy to move IF you have the equipment, which means planning. A bolted down safe is easy to deal with by convincing the owner to open it, if that is what the criminals decide to do.

The criminals would need a vehicle big enough to carry the safe, enough people to load it on the vehicle or a lift gate, etc. I suppose they could just hire movers to empty the house while you are at work :-).

A heavy safe is not quick to remove even if it is not bolted down.

SB23hater
10-03-2011, 12:48 PM
Didn't someone just post that a neighboors safe (not bolted down) weighing 1200lbs was stolen from with in the home.

True if they want it, they can take but dang it I'm not going to make it easy for them.

Casual_Shooter
10-03-2011, 2:30 PM
In a similar thread, someone mentioned using epoxy to hold a safe down to concrete. Would work especially well for a post-tensioned slab.

Synergy
10-03-2011, 2:48 PM
In a similar thread, someone mentioned using epoxy to hold a safe down to concrete. Would work especially well for a post-tensioned slab.

If you are on a post-tension slab, I would drill through the back of the safe and lag it into the wall studs.

Maddog5150
10-03-2011, 4:09 PM
You must have got some bad bits. I have a Hilti hammer drill with Hilti or Bosch bits and I have drilled quite a few holes on the same bit. Also blow out the dust from the hole before setting your anchors

I used bosch bits. The first bit I ever used burned out quick then the second I tried an oil and it burned out fast. Then I used water and they started lasting. Maybe I was just doing something wrong :confused:

21SF
10-03-2011, 4:32 PM
What if your renting in an apartment, then what?


Ill just pull the carpet up and drill, put the carpet down when i leave, lol.

What happens if you drill into post-tensioned?

Kodemonkey
10-03-2011, 4:48 PM
What happens if you drill into post-tensioned?

Bad things if you hit one of the tension wires. Death could be a consequence, at least as far as the paper I signed when I bought the house.

colddeadhands
10-03-2011, 5:06 PM
I used to install safes in Livermore, if you do end up paying someone to do don't brag about whats going in it.

I don't have enough appendages to keep count of all the dumb***** people who would brag about their gun collection, $100,000 cash, diamonds, or what ever valuable was going into the safe to the guys who knew where it was and how to get it out. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Not that you would, just general advice.

Carsgunsandchics
10-03-2011, 7:20 PM
I used bosch bits. The first bit I ever used burned out quick then the second I tried an oil and it burned out fast. Then I used water and they started lasting. Maybe I was just doing something wrong :confused:

Usually a bosch bit will last quite awhile with a good hammer drill. What type of hammer drill did you use?

Synergy
10-03-2011, 8:01 PM
Usually a bosch bit will last quite awhile with a good hammer drill. What type of hammer drill did you use?

Beat me to the question. Is it an actual hammer drill that uses a SDS or Spline shank bit or is it a standard shank that you use in your 18v Dewalt on hammer mode?

The concrete is tensioned around 33,000 lbs, if you were to sever the cable, it would snap through the slab and could slice you like a hot knife through butter.

http://avalonstructural.com/tensioned21.jpg

Dutch3
10-03-2011, 8:44 PM
The concrete is tensioned around 33,000 lbs, if you were to sever the cable, it would snap through the slab and could slice you like a hot knife through butter.



Scary thought. Those tensioned cables remind me of this...

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k37/wilbilt/Picture42.png

RUSSIAN
10-03-2011, 8:54 PM
I used bosch bits. The first bit I ever used burned out quick then the second I tried an oil and it burned out fast. Then I used water and they started lasting. Maybe I was just doing something wrong :confused:

Most likely you were doing something wrong. I have drilled thousands upon thousands of holes(even in post tension:chris:) and these bits are made to take abuse, and should last 100's of holes if not more.

sniper4usmc
10-03-2011, 8:56 PM
I have same Safe,and I bought this cheap hammer drill from amazon http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-PC650HD-2-Inch-Hammer-Drill/dp/B001EYU8T4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317700574&sr=8-1

Caiden07
10-03-2011, 10:48 PM
If your just on the neighborhood I will mount it for you, I have the proper drill and anchors for mounting on concrete or wall studs.

Maddog5150
10-03-2011, 11:57 PM
It was a ryobi hammer drill. I would go a little at a time and then cool off the bit. I would like to know what is up with it so I know for next time

tozan
10-04-2011, 12:45 AM
Bolted VS unbolted... Carrying it away is not really the problem... Opening the safe is much easier when it is not bolted down. The heavier it is the better, because once you push it over with the door side facing up two guys can put a lot more force into prying it open without it flipping over or moving around.

Example break in times:
Bolted down 45 minutes
Unbolted 8 minutes

If the safe is located in a closet with tight wall space around it and it is bolted down real well it may take even longer... Then it my come down to cutting it open or knowing exactly where to drill it. Be sure to have WARNING EXPLOSIVE BLACK POWDER stickers on it and a good insurance policy.

Check out this video the safe is knocked over and pried open in under 2 minutes.. http://youtu.be/nBhOjWHbD6M

Synergy
10-04-2011, 12:49 AM
It was a ryobi hammer drill. I would go a little at a time and then cool off the bit. I would like to know what is up with it so I know for next time

I don't think your drill uses bits like this:
http://www.hilti.com/data/product/prodlarge/ca00515.jpg

See the groves on the shank? Those allow the percussion of the hammer drill to do its job. If you have a normal keyed chuck, you are not getting a true hammer drill. I have used drills like your Ryobi and I find that slow/medium speed and steady pressure, with constant clean out of the hole helps speed up the process.

Synergy
10-04-2011, 12:57 AM
Bolted VS unbolted... Carrying it away is not really the problem... Opening the safe is much easier when it is not bolted down. The heavier it is the better, because once you push it over with the door side facing up two guys can put a lot more force into prying it open without it flipping over or moving around.

Example break in times:
Bolted down 45 minutes
Unbolted 8 minutes

If the safe is located in a closet with tight wall space around it and it is bolted down real well it may take even longer... Then it my come down to cutting it open or knowing exactly where to drill it. Be sure to have WARNING EXPLOSIVE BLACK POWDER stickers on it and a good insurance policy.

Why I have a Sturdy
4oOqDHedivQ

SB23hater
10-04-2011, 7:40 AM
Saan ka nakatira?

Malapita sa Antioch near Golf Course Road.

I have 1 little problem... I can't find the documents to see what kind of slab I have...:(

If your just on the neighborhood I will mount it for you, I have the proper drill and anchors for mounting on concrete or wall studs.

SB23hater
10-04-2011, 8:10 AM
:eek::facepalm::kest:

I used to install safes in Livermore, if you do end up paying someone to do don't brag about whats going in it.

I don't have enough appendages to keep count of all the dumb***** people who would brag about their gun collection, $100,000 cash, diamonds, or what ever valuable was going into the safe to the guys who knew where it was and how to get it out.
Not that you would, just general advice.

tankarian
10-04-2011, 9:00 AM
Bolting down a safe doesn't guarantee anything either. If they can get leverage on a tall safe they can snap the bolts off.

Not so easy to do if you position the safe against the walls in the corner of the room.
Four concrete anchors + no leverage point = harder to move safe.
Not impossible, but much harder, noisier and time consuming to steal.

tankarian
10-04-2011, 9:05 AM
I used bosch bits. The first bit I ever used burned out quick then the second I tried an oil and it burned out fast. Then I used water and they started lasting. Maybe I was just doing something wrong :confused:

Use the lower rpm setting and DO NOT put lots of weight on your hammer drill. Just let it advance mostly on his own weight. I drilled hundreds of holes with a Bosch hammer drill using the same bit, they last a very long time.

P.S. Real drill hammer bits have cuts at the end of the shaft like these:

http://www.bridgat.com/files/SDS_Plus_Hammer_Drill_Bits.jpg

They are used only in the real hammer drills like Hilti, Makita and Bosch.
For reference: this is a real hammer drill made by Makita, I owned same model when I used to work in a business requiring lots of concrete drilling:

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/hammer-drill-250227.jpg

Another thing: if you are using a regular drill that takes regular bits for drilling holes in wood or metal and has a "hammer drill mode" switch, you are using the wrong tool. You need a real hammer drill that takes only drill bits with cuts at the end of the shaft.
If you don't have one like that, you can rent it at HD.

Javi
10-04-2011, 10:08 AM
How do I find out if my garage floor has those cables in it? This house was made in..1993 or 1994. I'm going to rent a drill from Home Depot when I get mine(or Lowes, whichever is cheaper). I'll assume they have the drill bits too but if not, I'll just buy one.

SB23hater
10-04-2011, 12:56 PM
Ok sound like I'm going to Home Depot rent the drill and pray I don't have a tension slab.

Now I just need to know what brand type of anchor bolt to use.

ivsamhell
10-04-2011, 1:09 PM
I just call them redheads, damn brand name association. Its just a wedge concrete anchor bolt, I'd use 3/8" x 3"ish.

Tangorox
10-04-2011, 1:47 PM
Saan ka nakatira?

Malapita sa Antioch near Golf Course Road.

I have 1 little problem... I can't find the documents to see what kind of slab I have...:(

I am sure your slab is tensioned. I used to work for KB Homes.... we did the drawings for KB houses in CA and we have a sheet of drawing purposely just for slab tensioning.

SB23hater
10-04-2011, 2:23 PM
:censored:!!!! This means if I want to drill I have to be super careful... or can't at all???

I am sure your slab is tensioned. I used to work for KB Homes.... we did the drawings for KB houses in CA and we have a sheet of drawing purposely just for slab tensioning.

Tangorox
10-04-2011, 4:51 PM
SB23hater,
I am trying to get a copy of the plans from my friend who is still working at KB Home and have a basis if you still decide to work off the slab. Post tension slab increases the strength of the concrete so by damaging the cables hence the risk of problems down the road...no idea how the extent. The earth continuously move depending on the weather. Your call.

SB23hater
10-04-2011, 9:33 PM
Thank you for looking into it. I'm going to ask my neighbor if he still has his paper work.

SB23hater,
I am trying to get a copy of the plans from my friend who is still working at KB Home and have a basis if you still decide to work off the slab. Post tension slab increases the strength of the concrete so by damaging the cables hence the risk of problems down the road...no idea how the extent. The earth continuously move depending on the weather. Your call.

ham66
10-04-2011, 11:10 PM
lag screw into 2x4 in the wall thats what i had to do because of post ten. slab

Curtis
10-05-2011, 4:04 AM
I think most newer houses would have them (post 94 earthquake). I am nearly certain it is the code now - else the cheapskate builders that built my house wouldn't have done it.

By the way,my garage does not have the placard on the concrete but I know it is there. I had to sign a bunch of paperwork acknowledging that I understood I had a post tension slab when I bought the house.

PT slabs are not required by the code. In fact the code did change in 2007 that actually made PT less desirable for the developers. I would be surprised if 30% of new homes/tract homes have PT slab. It is very dependent on the soil requirements. Sacramento has LOTS of PT slabs due to poor soil.

Code requires a stamp to be provided in the concrete at one or both sides of the garage door. However, sometimes it is difficult to see because they waited too long to place the stamp.

Always drill all the way through the slab, whenever setting anchor bolts. When the time comes to make changes you can just knock them through and even use the same holes if needed. One bit should be just fine, I've drilled probably into the thousands on one.

This is a bad idea. Homes built in the last 20 years will have a moisture barrier under the slab. Although not always required, these are typically provided at the garage. You would be surprised by the amount moisture that can migrate up under the slab.

Example: A friend would get moisture on his garage slab every time he set a plastic bag or a plastic bucket or metal barrel. His slab didn't have a moisture barrier and moisture would come to the surface of the slab. It would evaporate before it was noticed, but it would gather when he put down something that prevent evaporation.

What happens if you drill into post-tensioned?

Bad things if you hit one of the tension wires. Death could be a consequence, at least as far as the paper I signed when I bought the house.

This is an exaggeration. In residential homes you won't see a cable rip out of the slab or shoot out the other end. But I have seen the plugs shoot out when cables were cut.

How do I find out if my garage floor has those cables in it? This house was made in..1993 or 1994. .

Check your garage for the PT stamp. It might be very faint. You can also look at the edge of your foundation for round spots. These are cementitous plugs that cover the live end of the PT tendons.

You could also contact the builder directly or the building department. However, it seems like it is impossible to reach some builders. The building departments should have plans on file for several years, but it is hit and miss.

You can locate rebar/tendons using GPR (ground penetrating radar) or a profoscope (glorified stud finder/metal detector). I have a profoscope and just down the road from you. I would be willing to take a look.

Curtis
10-05-2011, 4:32 AM
PT slabs have a reputation for being dangerous. It is externally unlikely that someone would get hurt by drilling or cutting a tendon. And it is also unlikely that drilling or cutting a tendon would cause an issue with your home. The biggest concern is if you cut a tendon that was supporting a large point load. Most damaged tendons are never repaired because any one tendon typically doesn't effect the overall performance of the slab.

I would recommend using a wedge anchor by Simpson, Hilti, or Ramset/Read head. You can get away with as little as 2" of embedment with a wedge anchor.

A PT slab has tendons running in both directions. They are spaced at about 10 feet to 15 feet on center. However, I have seen them as close as 12" on center in the Sacramento area. You ALWAYS have tendons at the perimeter of the slab. This is also were the anchors occur. Then they run two bars of rebar at these anchors. So the edge of the slab it a crowded area to drill a slab.

Another area of concern is the transition from the house to the garage. The tendons slop up from the lower garage slab to the higher house slab. It is common for the tendons to get close to the slab surface.

Most PT slabs are 4.5" - 5" thick. The tendons will be in the middle of the slab (with the exception of the house to slab transition). If you drill a two inch deep hole, you shouldn't have an issue with hitting the tendons.

I hope this helps.

SB23hater
10-05-2011, 7:03 AM
Thank you all for the info. I'm very happy I posted this question and have learned alot.

I will look at wedge anchor by Simpson, Hilti, or Ramset/Read head this weekend.

Do you think 2 inches deep will be enough to secure the safe?

Javi
10-05-2011, 12:30 PM
Check your garage for the PT stamp. It might be very faint. You can also look at the edge of your foundation for round spots. These are cementitous plugs that cover the live end of the PT tendons.

You could also contact the builder directly or the building department. However, it seems like it is impossible to reach some builders. The building departments should have plans on file for several years, but it is hit and miss.

You can locate rebar/tendons using GPR (ground penetrating radar) or a profoscope (glorified stud finder/metal detector). I have a profoscope and just down the road from you. I would be willing to take a look.

I've never seen that stamp around here. One side of the garage closest to the entrance to the house is cluttered with my mom's crap, though haha. I may have to take you up on that offer.

Sub95
10-05-2011, 2:14 PM
If you go to the city/county planning office they should have the plans on record for your house/track.

xibunkrlilkidsx
10-05-2011, 10:20 PM
Drop in bolts or anchor bolts. I've used the anchor bolts in my last garage after moving and putting the safe in doors, I used drop in so the stud wouldnt stick up if I ever moved it.
I will tell you this. Use PREMIUM bits on a hammer bit. Dont go cheap because they burn out really quick. You will need at least two bits for four holes. I've burned out a lot of bits my first time around and found out the best lube to use is water to keep the but from burning up. If someone else here knows better, please chime in because I would like to know :)
Go in a little bit, pull out, wet it, repeat. (thats what she said) and clean out your holes before putting your bolt in. I also put a little bit of construction adhesive in the hole before putting in the bolt but some dont think its needed.

?
we have not bought new drill bits for our rotary hammer in 3 years or so. we still have the ones that came witht he hammer dril and they work great.


Step 1: Make sure you do not have post tesnioned floors
Step 2: Place safe where u want
Step 3: get a vaccum hose and have it next to where your drilling to suck up the powder, oh and double up on the ear protection its going to be loud.
Step 4: start w/ 1/4" bit in the center of the hole and begin drilling....
slight hint...go deeper than u need for the bolt, so if you ever need to move it you just take a punch and hammer and knockt he bolts down into the concrete so they dont stick up
Step 5: step up to larger size, 1/2 or what ever you end up using, we use 1/2" for large safes like this
Step 6: insert bolts and use a hammer/sledge to tap them down, just dont tapt hem to low so you cant use a but to tighten it down.....
Step 7: snug down the bolts.


its pretty simple if you have the right mind that works well with common sense.

tozan
10-06-2011, 12:29 AM
Not so easy to do if you position the safe against the walls in the corner of the room.
Four concrete anchors + no leverage point = harder to move safe.
Not impossible, but much harder, noisier and time consuming to steal.

Putting a couple bolts in a back wall make it even harder.

Also be sure to use largest and thickest washers you can find. I used 3 inch washers that are 1/4 inch thick on mine.

SB23hater
10-06-2011, 8:36 AM
Great advise. Adding thickest washers on the buy list.

Thanks

Putting a couple bolts in a back wall make it even harder.

Also be sure to use largest and thickest washers you can find. I used 3 inch washers that are 1/4 inch thick on mine.

Akers
10-06-2011, 9:04 AM
http://www.ussafe.com/

dhyayi
10-09-2011, 10:39 PM
I have same Safe,and I bought this cheap hammer drill from amazon http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-PC650HD-2-Inch-Hammer-Drill/dp/B001EYU8T4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317700574&sr=8-1

This tool is really put together from the get go . Great feel and powerful, gets the job done in no time at all.Could of got a cheaper one at HF but not as well made.

shmeare
10-10-2011, 7:38 PM
this was posted a few days ago: DIY how to

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=7273846