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AR-MAN88
10-02-2011, 12:49 PM
hey guys, lately i've been thinking about owning a pistol but i love my AR, i've been looking through "Rock River Arms" catalog and came across some 7 and 10.5 inch A2 and A4 pistol complete upper half. Im real interested in these products and was wondering if i can use my lower receiver and if its even legal in california knowing the SBR regulations?

FeuerFrei
10-02-2011, 1:00 PM
You cannot use your rifle lower legally.
Build from an 80% lower.
Buy complete single shot pistol from Cali FFL.
PPT from a legal AR pistol owner or LEO that has one to sell.
Search here... lots of legal how to stuff.

AR-MAN88
10-02-2011, 1:18 PM
will do, thank you for the info.

s0calflip
10-02-2011, 1:26 PM
I was thinkin about building an AR15 pistol from the parts i found on Rock River Arms. It would be legal if you bought the lower receiver, right? i'm new to ar15 builds and the California laws. if bought the ar15 pistol lower receiver and a upper 10.5 in upper its legal in California, right?

Infantry H2
10-02-2011, 1:44 PM
Ensure u have the pistol lower before you buy the shorty upper. Especially if you have a DROSd rifle lower in your possession.

s0calflip
10-02-2011, 1:52 PM
DROSd? sorry like i said i'm kinda new to all this, but asking questions to get familiar with everything...

Shellshocker66
10-02-2011, 2:10 PM
DROSd? sorry like i said i'm kinda new to all this, but asking questions to get familiar with everything...

Dealers Record of Sale. The form you fill out when you purchase a handgun or long gun from a FFL.

Edit: The above poster mentioned that if you have purchased a lower that has been DROS'd as a long gun (rifle) then possession of a upper less then 16 inches total length would constitute a short barrel rifle, which is a no no. That is why folks purchase 80% lowers and do the milling, purchase one already made by an FFL, or purchased from a private party.

s0calflip
10-03-2011, 12:02 PM
if the lower reciever is reg as a pistol then is it legal to build an AR15 pistol? I know RRA has a complete lower reciever that the company reg as a pistol.

Quiet
10-03-2011, 12:32 PM
The problem is with CA DOJ.

When a firearm gets transfered by a FFL dealer, a ATF 4473 form gets filled out.
When a firearm gets transfered by a CA FFL dealer, a ATF 4473 form gets filled out and a CA DROS is done.

The ATF 4473 form indicates three types of firearms: "handgun", "long gun" & "other".
The CA DROS indicates two types of firearms: "handgun" & "long gun".

Because of the CA DOJ approved list of handgun sales, AR receivers can not be DROS'd as a "handgun" to a non-exempt person.

Therefore, if you take a AR receiver (even one that is stamped as a pistol reciever) that was DROS'd as a "long gun" and make it into an AR pistol, you run the risk of being prosecuted by CA for making/possessing a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR){state felony}.

if the lower reciever is reg as a pistol then is it legal to build an AR15 pistol? I know RRA has a complete lower reciever that the company reg as a pistol.
You could buy that AR pistol reciever, but unless you are an exempt person, the CA FFL dealer will DROS it as a "long gun". And if you then take that receiver and make it into a AR pistol, CA can go after you for making/possessing a SBR.

The only ways to get an AR reciever and legally make it into an AR pistol in CA is via PPT of one that was previously DROS'd as a "handgun", LEO sales, out-of-state intra-familial gift, as a dimensionally compliant single-shot pistol or build one from a piece of metal (80% lower).

SocomM4
10-03-2011, 1:15 PM
Why not just walk into a shop and buy one? Find one with the bare bones necessities , and the barrel length you want. Then pop out the single shot sled and install a bullet button and a 10/30 then accessories as desired.

s0calflip
10-04-2011, 8:34 PM
i do appreciate all the advice and suggestions on building this "seem to be impossible" build...

Just a thought, so let me know any opinions or advice:

if i buy an AR15 lower receiver stripped or complete that is registered as a pistol from RRA or Spikes Tactical, have it shipped to an FFL dealer and have the single shot sled and upper receiver and have a bullet button/mag lock to be added to the receiver at time of transfer, wont it be a legal Cali firearm?

suggestions, advice, and constructive criticism is definitely welcome

i

torquefliteterror
10-04-2011, 10:41 PM
google ebr works . they have an active thread on here somewhere -where they offer a complete pistol for $750ish and they buy back the unused upper and sled for $365. thats going to be your cheapest and most legal way to own the pistol lower. then you can legally buy or build your upper without having short barrelled rifle -constructive possession charges against you if you were caught owning a short upper without a (pistol)lower in your possession.

Josh3239
10-04-2011, 10:57 PM
+1 to Ebr Works. He is really a great guy and he is local to you in Ventura County.

leman77
10-04-2011, 11:37 PM
Can LEO buy one of these and shoot 30 round magazines out of it and not have a bullet button since it's a 'handgun'.?

stix213
10-04-2011, 11:50 PM
i do appreciate all the advice and suggestions on building this "seem to be impossible" build...

Just a thought, so let me know any opinions or advice:

if i buy an AR15 lower receiver stripped or complete that is registered as a pistol from RRA or Spikes Tactical, have it shipped to an FFL dealer and have the single shot sled and upper receiver and have a bullet button/mag lock to be added to the receiver at time of transfer, wont it be a legal Cali firearm?

suggestions, advice, and constructive criticism is definitely welcome

i

Unless you are law enforcement, you cannot buy a stripped lower as a registered pistol. The FFL would be violating CA law to do so.

Regular FFL's also cannot build AR pistols for you. Needs a separate license I believe (can someone else confirm this for me?).

Best/easiest way to go is either find one private party, or buy an already completed new single shot exempt pistol, then replace whatever parts you want.

Scratch705
10-04-2011, 11:57 PM
i'm wondering if this applies to out of state residents that will move back to ca?

or do all they need to do is just put a mag lock on and send in the CADOJ form?

cdtx2001
10-05-2011, 7:47 AM
If you want a pistol, go the 80% route. Find a machinist that knows something about gunsmithing and see if you can use their mill. I did, and the results were great. Doing the machine work wasn't as hard as I thought, it's just time consuming. It also helps that the machinist I found was into this too and already had custom AR jigs to hold the lowers which he made. Sure was fun learning to use a Bridgeport.

Heck, you can do this on a drill press with a custom jig sold at Sacramento Black Rifle.

As a side note, does anyone know if forward grips are legal federally? I know that you can have one in CA if you have a bullet button, but what about federally?

SocomM4
10-05-2011, 10:02 AM
I have an 80% lower and jig. Had it for a year and it's sat in the same spot since I got it. Virtually nobody wants to help mill it out.

Josh3239
10-05-2011, 10:29 AM
Can LEO buy one of these and shoot 30 round magazines out of it and not have a bullet button since it's a 'handgun'.?

Of course not. Law Enforcement officers have to follow gun laws just as much as they have to follow any other law such as murder.

i'm wondering if this applies to out of state residents that will move back to ca?

or do all they need to do is just put a mag lock on and send in the CADOJ form?

The Roster only applies to dealer sales. When a person moves to CA with an AR pistol it is treated like any other off-the-roster handgun, the new resident form must be sent in and they must make mods to make sure it is CA legal.


As a side note, does anyone know if forward grips are legal federally? I know that you can have one in CA if you have a bullet button, but what about federally?

The Feds and I think CA would come after you as well, if you put a vertical foregrip on a pistol. That is what they call an AOW or Any Other Weapon. Essentially a pistol is described as a weapon that is fired with one hand, a pistol with a vertical foregrip is designed to fire with two hands therefore it isn't really a pistol.

You do NOT need a dangerous weapons permit from California to do this. You would fill out the ATF forms for an AOW just like you would fill out the forms in any other state. AOWs can be made, there are hoops to jump through and the ATF takes a few months to approve applications but it can be done fairly easily.

torquefliteterror
10-05-2011, 12:38 PM
As a side note, does anyone know if forward grips are legal federally? I know that you can have one in CA if you have a bullet button, but what about federally?

its illegal in cali as well as federal if you did not register it as an AOW. the cali legal Franklin Arms X0-26 is exempt because it is over 26 inches. like the mossberg persuader. it is not a pistol or a rifle. it falls under "other" status and so it does not fall under NFA controls.

if you use an ar pistol with the 11.5 barrel and the longer buffer tube you would exceed 26"overall length and be legal. as per the exemption letter issued to Franklin arms.

PS- don't waste time folks. the EBR deal is the best ive ever seen. i've built 5-80%ers - if this deal had been around back in the day i would have just bought it from them.

SocomM4
10-05-2011, 1:59 PM
Closest you can get to a vertical grip, is a Magpul Angled fore grip. I read those are ok here on calguns I think.

Quiet
10-05-2011, 3:49 PM
if i buy an AR15 lower receiver stripped or complete that is registered as a pistol from RRA or Spikes Tactical, have it shipped to an FFL dealer and have the single shot sled and upper receiver and have a bullet button/mag lock to be added to the receiver at time of transfer, wont it be a legal Cali firearm?
It would need to be shipped a FFL licensed as a manufacturer (Type 07-FFL), a regular FFL dealer (Type 01-FFL) can not legally do what you described.

Can LEO buy one of these and shoot 30 round magazines out of it and not have a bullet button since it's a 'handgun'.?
LEOs have to abide by the law just like everyone else.
An AR pistol without a maglock is an "assault weapon".
An AR pistol with a 11+ round fixed magazine is an "assault weapon".
A LEO possessing either would be just as guilty as a regular person, but in addition to the felony for possessing it, they would also face loss of employment from their LE agency.

As a side note, does anyone know if forward grips are legal federally? I know that you can have one in CA if you have a bullet button, but what about federally?
A veritcal forward grip on a handgun makes it an AOW.
Unless, you have BATFE approval, making/possessing an unapproved AOW is a Federal felony.

The BATFE NFA Branch is okay (no BATFE approval needed) with a horizontal forward grip on a handgun and an angled forward grip on a handgun.

Under CA laws, a semi-auto pistol with a fixed magazine can legally have a vertical/horizontal/angled forward grip on it.

So, if you want a vertical forward grip on your AR pistol, you must first get BATFE approval to make an AOW. After you get approved, you can attach a vertical forward grip to your AR pistol and be legal under both Federal & CA state laws.

I have an 80% lower and jig. Had it for a year and it's sat in the same spot since I got it. Virtually nobody wants to help mill it out.
In order to be legal, you have to do the actual milling. You can receive instructions/assistance, but you must do the actual work.

SocomM4
10-05-2011, 4:06 PM
In order to be legal, you have to do the actual milling. You can receive instructions/assistance, but you must do the actual work.



Really?:troll:

bubbapug1
10-05-2011, 7:49 PM
I'd go to EBR or rifle gear and just buy one. The EBR unit is a smoking deal. If you think you like your AR, you will love your AR pistol. They are really the best of all worlds.

cdtx2001
10-05-2011, 8:34 PM
Really?:troll:

Yes, really!

Sending you a PM with some helpful info.


BTW y'all remember, for every AR lower that's finished a Liberal sheds a tear.

torquefliteterror
10-05-2011, 9:00 PM
Closest you can get to a vertical grip, is a Magpul Angled fore grip. I read those are ok here on calguns I think.

yup, some people are afraid to do it still, but there is an ATF tech letter floating around that verifies ATF views Magpul AFG as ok as it is not a "vertical" grip. Hell it says it in the name - Angled fore grip. cant mistake that for Vertical!

Scratch705
10-05-2011, 9:05 PM
The Roster only applies to dealer sales. When a person moves to CA with an AR pistol it is treated like any other off-the-roster handgun, the new resident form must be sent in and they must make mods to make sure it is CA legal.



nice, that means i'll be getting an ar pistol next year. :D

j1mmyd
10-23-2011, 7:01 AM
Having done a lot of research on this issue recently, I'm inclined to purchase my first one and build a lower after that. The idea of matched parts and a warranty is appealing.

In addition to the EBRworks deal, which looks good, this guy on GunBroker has fantastic feedback and will make it CA legal for an extra $50: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SellerAuctions.aspx?User=161751