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View Full Version : Armed Security, Gun without magazine


akoba
10-01-2011, 11:43 PM
I saw this few months ago in a asian supermarket. I saw a armed security guard who have a glock pistol and in full complete gear. And when he turn his back on my direction i saw the gun had no magazine on it. And he was on duty. At first i thought maybe i didn't see it clearly. But when he walk back again on the table where i was eating, i am 100% sure that there's no magazine on his glock. I told my wife about the gun and when she look at it, she confirm it to me that it was empyt (mag).
What in the world was he thinking :facepalm: ?

Ziggy91
10-01-2011, 11:57 PM
I think problem #1 is that you were in an Asian supermarket... I dont think anyone that works or shops in there should handle a gun LOL

just kidding, a little racist, i'm sorry, it's late...

Honestly, he either forgot it or they aren't even alowed to carry loaded guns. Sounds dumb, but i've heard of wost policies... believe me

locosway
10-02-2011, 12:33 AM
I saw this few months ago in a asian supermarket. I saw a armed security guard who have a glock pistol and in full complete gear. And when he turn his back on my direction i saw the gun had no magazine on it. And he was on duty. At first i thought maybe i didn't see it clearly. But when he walk back again on the table where i was eating, i am 100% sure that there's no magazine on his glock. I told my wife about the gun and when she look at it, she confirm it to me that it was empyt (mag).
What in the world was he thinking :facepalm: ?

Maybe he forgot to load up? I would have told him, just in case... You could have saved a life.

s4alex
10-02-2011, 12:35 AM
Either that or he doesn't really have a guard card and is just doing a legal UOC.....

Cokebottle
10-02-2011, 12:40 AM
Either that or he doesn't really have a guard card and is just doing a legal UOC.....
This is most likely the situation.
Shop owners probably too cheap thrifty to hire an actual armed guard.

stitch_paradox
10-02-2011, 12:41 AM
I think problem #1 is that you were in an Asian supermarket... I dont think anyone that works or shops in there should handle a gun LOL

I'm a racist, I know... I'm an idiot.



There I fixed it for you.

akoba
10-02-2011, 7:24 AM
he either forgot it or they aren't even alowed to carry loaded guns. Sounds dumb, but i've heard of wost policies... believe me
Really?? wow i will never work on those agency.

just doing a legal UOC.....
Good point

locosway
10-02-2011, 7:26 AM
This is most likely the situation.
Shop owners probably too cheap thrifty to hire an actual armed guard.

Employees can carry armed with the owners permission. Only restriction is if he's actually doing security duties or wearing a uniform.

RTE
10-02-2011, 8:16 AM
Next time
ask him

Probably just looking the part as a deterrent

Cokebottle
10-02-2011, 10:21 AM
Employees can carry armed with the owners permission. Only restriction is if he's actually doing security duties or wearing a uniform.
Exactly.

They want visible security as a deterrent... not armed employees.
Rather than cough up the thousands a month a real armed guard would cost them, it's cheaper to slap a uniform and an unloaded gun on a bagger and have him stand by the door.

dieselpower
10-02-2011, 11:13 AM
well...

You can NOT provide "security duties" for any business open to the public without a guard card. You can not provide security to a business and carry a firearm, loaded or unloaded without a firearms permit.

Plain clothes Loss Prevention agents and Asset Protection Investigators may work without guard cards since they provide no more security than any other employee. If LP/AP employees carry weapons, they must be certified/licensed and that requires a Guard card also.

If that Security Officer doesn't have a Guard card and weapons permit, he is illegally carrying a firearm and illegally providing security services.

Now if you want to dress up like a Security Officer and UOC a firearm, that is fine as long as no one is playing you to do that and you are not required to have a Guard card to play dress up.... and then UOC is legal.

ElvenSoul
10-02-2011, 11:20 AM
Basically this is a free gun to any theif. Never carry a unloaded firearm.

CSACANNONEER
10-02-2011, 11:21 AM
Was his name Barney? Maybe Andy didn't think that today was a good day for Barney to carry ammo.


Either that or he doesn't really have a guard card and is just doing a legal UOC.....

You do not need a guard card to work as in house security. Also, a guard card does NOT give a rent a cop the credentials to carry a firearm. He would need a separte firearms permit.

CSACANNONEER
10-02-2011, 11:29 AM
Then he is still in violation of the law. You have to have a Guard Card and a Gun card to be a security guard with a firearm.


well...

You can NOT provide "security duties" for any business open to the public without a guard card. You can not provide security to a business and carry a firearm, loaded or unloaded without a firearms permit.

Plain clothes Loss Prevention agents and Asset Protection Investigators may work without guard cards since they provide no more security than any other employee. If LP/AP employees carry weapons, they must be certified/licensed and that requires a Guard card also.

If that Security Officer doesn't have a Guard card and weapons permit, he is illegally carrying a firearm and illegally providing security services.

Now if you want to dress up like a Security Officer and UOC a firearm, that is fine as long as no one is playing you to do that and you are not required to have a Guard card to play dress up.... and then UOC is legal.

I call BS on both of these posts. Without a guard card, Firearms permit or LTC, I have legally carried concealed while acting as in house security in California. Sure, the perameters may be limited but, both of the above posts make it sound like it is impossible to legally do so. I did it legally when I also lived on the +400 acres I was patrolling.

I once hard a rent-a-cop card and work private security. After I left that job and my guard card had expired, I was recruited to play rent-a-cop at a mall. I wore a uniform and a tin star while partolling in places open to the public but, no guard card was required!

dieselpower
10-02-2011, 11:36 AM
I call BS on both of these posts. Without a guard card, Firearms permit or LTC, I have legally carried concealed while acting as in house security in California. Sure, the perameters may be limited but, both of the above posts make it sound like it is impossible to legally do so. I did it legally when I also lived on the +400 acres I was patrolling.

I once hard a rent-a-cop card and work private security. After I left that job and my guard card had expired, I was recruited to play rent-a-cop at a mall. I wore a uniform and a tin star while partolling in places open to the public but, no guard card was required!



http://www.bsis.ca.gov/

read

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=bpc&group=07001-08000&file=7582-7582.28

CSACANNONEER
10-02-2011, 11:44 AM
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/

read

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=bpc&group=07001-08000&file=7582-7582.28

Wow, I guess I was wrong because, they made a new class of rent-a-cops in '06! I guess I'm glad I move off the ranch and stopped working for them in '05. Anyway, I still don't think it would be illegal for ANYONE, rent-a-cop or not, to carry openly or concealed at their own place of residence. Right?

dieselpower
10-02-2011, 11:54 AM
correct. as long as you are not being paid to provide security for a business open to the public, even outside of normal working hours.

so I can dress up like a Security officer and walk to the store to buy a 6-pack of beer while UOCing and I have committed no crime.

If I am employed by a company NOT open to the public and I am NOT providing security for any other employee I can dress up like a fun-house clown and carry an unloaded firearm if the owners says its ok.

Only the Owner or Officer in a Corporation (CEO, CFO,...) can carry a loaded concealed firearm at the place of business without a permit.

Cokebottle
10-02-2011, 2:15 PM
Legal or not, a lot of business owners either don't know, or simply don't care, particularly businesses owned by recent immigrants.
My wife worked for a Chinese family a few years ago. They paid monthly, which apparently is illegal for hourly employees (had no idea until she filed a labor board claim against them after they fired her "because she didn't fit in with the culture").

Points in the law such as this, people will remain ignorant until it it pointed out to them. The topic of legality doesn't even come up when these decisions are made by owners of these independent stores.

El Gato
10-02-2011, 2:31 PM
Further
It is illegal for the employers of in house security to make them or allow them to carry an imitation or non-functioning firearm
Unloaded is non-functional
What doesn't surprise me is the unloaded gun
You have to read/write in english to pass the test
lazy money grubbing bsis "instructors" pass these people just for handing the money over
Sometimes they dint even have to shoot
Sad

Toyman321
10-03-2011, 12:16 AM
well...

You can NOT provide "security duties" for any business open to the public without a guard card. You can not provide security to a business and carry a firearm, loaded or unloaded without a firearms permit.

Plain clothes Loss Prevention agents and Asset Protection Investigators may work without guard cards since they provide no more security than any other employee. If LP/AP employees carry weapons, they must be certified/licensed and that requires a Guard card also.

If that Security Officer doesn't have a Guard card and weapons permit, he is illegally carrying a firearm and illegally providing security services.

Now if you want to dress up like a Security Officer and UOC a firearm, that is fine as long as no one is playing you to do that and you are not required to have a Guard card to play dress up.... and then UOC is legal.

How does this work with gun store employees carrying while working? Is it not considered the same because they are not acting as security or loss prevention? Just curious.

locosway
10-03-2011, 12:19 AM
How does this work with gun store employees carrying while working? Is it not considered the same because they are not acting as security or loss prevention? Just curious.

Yep

chim-chim7
10-03-2011, 4:58 AM
You failed to mention if he had one in the chamber. He is so good he only needs one bullet.

nine mil thrill
10-03-2011, 5:00 AM
.......when he bought the gun, he was told it was a single shot....?? (barney fife ??)

kwansao
10-03-2011, 5:24 AM
There I fixed it for you.

+1

Ha ha good job

Garand1911
10-03-2011, 2:12 PM
i seen a security guard in the LA jewelry district carrying a 1911, but with an upside down mag pouch ...how the hell does that work?
talk about slow and awkward mag changes.

remember that most of these "security" guys are poorly trained at best ...a plastic badge and a gun doesnt make anyone capable of protecting others or even themselves.
most of these guards are a "visual deterrent" and are there to only "observe and report" dont rely them to do **** for you if you need it.

Cokebottle
10-03-2011, 4:53 PM
Latest mall-ninja thing? Open the mag pouch and let the mags drop out? Sounds like someone misunderstood the meaning of "drop-free"

POLICESTATE
10-03-2011, 4:55 PM
Bet ya a buck it was an airsoft pistol.

epcii
10-03-2011, 6:23 PM
He probably dropped the mag without knowing. You should've mentioned it to him. He probably didn't lock it in all the way or something.

akoba
10-03-2011, 7:10 PM
i seen a security guard in the LA jewelry district carrying a 1911, but with an upside down mag pouch ...how the hell does that work?
talk about slow and awkward mag changes.


Yeah i saw one too here in Sacramento and I train him in one of our client. He said he just came back from military service in middle east . He is weird and over confident. His mag holder is upside down. He said that's how he setup his gear.

Agree on being a Visual deterrent.


Lol @ chim-chim :))

Wolfhound9k
10-03-2011, 8:04 PM
I saw this few months ago in a asian supermarket. I saw a armed security guard who have a glock pistol and in full complete gear. And when he turn his back on my direction i saw the gun had no magazine on it. And he was on duty. At first i thought maybe i didn't see it clearly. But when he walk back again on the table where i was eating, i am 100% sure that there's no magazine on his glock. I told my wife about the gun and when she look at it, she confirm it to me that it was empyt (mag).
What in the world was he thinking :facepalm: ?


Okay, was this at 99 Ranch? Their armed security is a joke sometimes... lol

For example: I saw an armed security guard there one day (I think Golden Dragon was the company) wearing a drop leg holster wayyyyy down near his knees :rolleyes: the subload was so far below his belt line, that he would have to literally bend over to draw his pistol and he wasn't even wearing a vest (just a thin black polo)... :facepalm: his back was to the store and anybody could have easily come up behind him and disarmed him since his gun was hanging out there just asking to be snatched if you know your way around a level 3 Serpa holster from watching a product demo

Another example: young guy, unarmed security guard, standing around near the front with his HEAD DOWN and texting on his phone... makes me feel REAL secure there... and with the way some armed guards qual at the range... lol, you're more likely to get hit than the bad guy!

But anyways, I have a hard time believing that any security guard in their right mind would carry a gun intentionally without even an empty magazine in place... especially while lots of security guards even carry TASERs shaped like firearms just to complete the appearance... My bet is that he's just an inexperienced guard with a gun and hey, you get what you pay for I guess...

akoba
10-04-2011, 9:58 AM
Yes its on 99 at the Mack road. I can't remember the agency's name. But i know now that they have a NEW agency assign on this location.


lol on drop leg holster wayyyyy down near his knees.

Shadowdrop
10-04-2011, 10:38 AM
I was in Vegas a few years ago and saw a gaming commission officer walking around the casino without a mag in his gun. I quietly advised him to check the condition of his weapon. The look on his face when he realized was priceless.

jyo
10-05-2011, 12:50 AM
Remember right after Sept. 10, 2001 when the armed solders at LAX were seen toting their M-16s around with no magazine on board...

Brianguy
10-05-2011, 1:17 AM
He probably forgot his mags at home. I had a coworker do the same thing:facepalm: luckily the boss didn't notice

Another coworker bought some crappy ammo from who knows where. The bullet and case separated while it was in the mag :facepalm: Don't be stingy when it comes to duty ammo:mad:

They need to make the firearm permit test harder or screen out the tards better:facepalm:

Here's another facepalm for fun :facepalm:

akoba
10-05-2011, 7:46 AM
They need to make the firearm permit test harder or screen out the tards better:facepalm:

Here's another facepalm for fun :facepalm:

Agree

dirtracer27x
10-05-2011, 7:50 AM
I think problem #1 is that you were in an Asian supermarket... I dont think anyone that works or shops in there should handle a gun LOL

just kidding, a little racist, i'm sorry, it's late...

Honestly, he either forgot it or they aren't even alowed to carry loaded guns. Sounds dumb, but i've heard of wost policies... believe me

wow,you should edit or remove your post as you sound like a ignorant racist.
i dont believe stupid comments like that have any place here at calguns.went to my local gun show and low and behold, guess who was running the calguns booth,yes,mostly asians.being half asain i take offense to it,late night or not.

and i shop in asain markets and i handle and own several guns,as well as a majority of calgunners

Delta-9
10-05-2011, 9:37 AM
His magazine could of been in his pocket.

Cokebottle
10-05-2011, 8:51 PM
They need to make the firearm permit test harder or screen out the tards better:facepalm:
Or increase the pay.

When the draw for the job is "Risk your life for $20k, but you get to carry a gun" you're going to get tards and Tackleberrys who couldn't pass POST.

Leadmaster
10-05-2011, 8:58 PM
wow,you should edit or remove your post as you sound like a ignorant racist.
i dont believe stupid comments like that have any place here at calguns.went to my local gun show and low and behold, guess who was running the calguns booth,yes,mostly asians.being half asain i take offense to it,late night or not.

and i shop in asain markets and i handle and own several guns,as well as a majority of calgunners

Lulz, u mad bro?

egDonald
10-06-2011, 12:19 PM
maybe he was exercising his ex-right of "open carry", and purposely left the mag out of the gun? I'm just guessing.

In regards to "looking the part" as a deterrent, I remember visiting Washington D.C. and all ALL ALL the security guards in the museums and whatnot carried guns in uniform. That's a lot of guns... I mean, I don't know how many people go into a museum planning to deface or steal anything but... i was surprised at that. And I know the rule "don't judge a book by it's cover", but some of the folks didn't seem to me to be the experienced gun-handler.
Not sure if they were loaded at all, but maybe showing they were armed was their form of deterrent.

Mickael81
10-07-2011, 11:59 AM
Well, maybe the security officer did have a permit and card but dropped the mag in the restroom when he had his belt and holdsteron the hook... i only mention it because it has happened at my work on more than one ocasion.

Cokebottle
10-07-2011, 12:15 PM
Well, maybe the security officer did have a permit and card but dropped the mag in the restroom when he had his belt and holdsteron the hook... i only mention it because it has happened at my work on more than one ocasion.
How can the mag be released and dropped from a holstered gun?

It's happened at work?

See the above comments on toughening up the standards to eliminate the tards.

If "something" can touch the gun in a manner that it "accidentally" releases the magazine AND the mag falls out, then something can just as easily hit the trigger and cause an ND.

Mickael81
10-07-2011, 12:54 PM
How can the mag be released and dropped from a holstered gun?

It's happened at work?

See the above comments on toughening up the standards to eliminate the tards.

If "something" can touch the gun in a manner that it "accidentally" releases the magazine AND the mag falls out, then something can just as easily hit the trigger and cause an ND.

Ok. So... i work with well over 300 officers and in the past 6 years i have seen it happen once with the glock, and once with the AR. Sometimes shyte just happens i guess. The glock incident was due to the holdster and the extended mag release for the glock. The officer had a serpa holdster with the cutout that exposes the rear portion of the slide. The mag extender extrudes out of the gun a lot more than the regular mag release and he believes that when he was leaning over, his handcuff pouch on his duty belt,slided over by his holdster getting closer to the inner side of the handgun clicking the mag release button. He believes that at this point the mag was unlocked but still in place untill he had to go to the restroom. In the restroom he claims he hung his duty belt on a hook that was next to a rack with cleaning supplies. The weapon at this point was facing up in the holdster making the mag slide off. On his way out he was noy paying attention and just put on his belt and left. Didnt find out he was missing a mag untill the end of his shift. The mag was recovered.

akoba
10-07-2011, 3:25 PM
Well, maybe the security officer did have a permit and card but dropped the mag in the restroom when he had his belt and holdsteron the hook... i only mention it because it has happened at my work on more than one ocasion.

They need to check the firearm for the defects and malfunctions. just an advise.

Cokebottle
10-07-2011, 3:46 PM
Ok. So... i work with well over 300 officers and in the past 6 years i have seen it happen once with the glock, and once with the AR. Sometimes shyte just happens i guess. The glock incident was due to the holdster and the extended mag release for the glock. The officer had a serpa holdster with the cutout that exposes the rear portion of the slide. The mag extender extrudes out of the gun a lot more than the regular mag release and he believes that when he was leaning over, his handcuff pouch on his duty belt,slided over by his holdster getting closer to the inner side of the handgun clicking the mag release button. He believes that at this point the mag was unlocked but still in place untill he had to go to the restroom. In the restroom he claims he hung his duty belt on a hook that was next to a rack with cleaning supplies. The weapon at this point was facing up in the holdster making the mag slide off. On his way out he was noy paying attention and just put on his belt and left. Didnt find out he was missing a mag untill the end of his shift. The mag was recovered.
The AR, I can see that happening since the release is quite exposed.
Even with the extended release, I have a hard time seeing it with the Serpa, but I'm not running extended releases on my handguns.
Sounds like a bizarre combination of events that caused the situation.

How is he on passive retention? I see a lot of officers that nearly always have their strong hand resting on the butt, with one finger over the floorplate. I don't know if it's a rookie thing or not, but I see it frequently among several municipal agencies so it seems like it's a training/policy practice.
A habit like that could catch a loose or missing mag.

Cokebottle
10-07-2011, 3:49 PM
Also add that this event underscores both the good and the bad about "drop free" mags.
Thank God the mag was a drop-free and he didn't go into a gunfight with his only available round being the one in the chamber.
OTOH, had the mag dropped under a less controlled situation, some civilian may have legitimately "found" a Glock high-cap.. and he'd have still gone into a gunfight with one round.

Mickael81
10-07-2011, 11:21 PM
I agree. To be honest im surprised he is still working. He did receive dissimilarity action but the stigma of being a dumb a55 still haunts him. We use his mistake as a lessons learned tool.