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View Full Version : Gun makers selling out


mlevans66
10-01-2011, 10:41 PM
How many gun makers sold out? I read about Ruger and I just read about S&W but just how many sold out to save there butts? When reading I noticed all kinds of things from backing the Clinton gun band to accepting 10 rnds mags as the norm. Is there anyone else that sold out I should know about? Here's some links

http://www.chuckhawks.com/smith-wesson_dark.htm

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/papabill.html

CSACANNONEER
10-01-2011, 10:44 PM
In the 1850s, Colt sold out by making revolvers which only held 6 rounds.

tgriffin
10-01-2011, 10:50 PM
Lol

mlevans66
10-01-2011, 10:52 PM
In the 1850s, Colt sold out by making revolvers which only held 6 rounds.

Ha Haaa! :facepalm: Not funny. :rolleyes:

tuna quesadilla
10-01-2011, 10:58 PM
Understand that Bill Ruger, the man who sold us out to the government, is now dead and his company is doing everything in its power to undo what he did. They're back to making factory standard-cap magazines, CCW pistols, AR-15s, etc... Under Bill Ruger they weren't doing any of that.

mlevans66
10-01-2011, 11:02 PM
Understand that Bill Ruger, the man who sold us out to the government, is now dead and his company is doing everything in its power to undo what he did. They're back to making factory standard-cap magazines, CCW pistols, AR-15s, etc... Under Bill Ruger they weren't doing any of that.

Hey I get it. I just got a Ruger Scout and I own a GP100 (AWSOME GUN!) and I own a couple of Smiths but I read about them selling out and it reminded me of GE's Jeffery Immelt.

Colt-45
10-01-2011, 11:11 PM
OOOoh....... you mean SELL OUTS not sold out. I thought you were bringing us good news as in gun sellers were selling so many guns that they were sold out of guns.

As for gun maker sell outs, Bill Ruger always comes to mind.

mlevans66
10-01-2011, 11:18 PM
OOOoh....... you mean SELL OUTS not sold out. I thought you were bringing us good news as in gun sellers were selling so many guns that they were sold out of guns.

As for gun maker sell outs, Bill Ruger always comes to mind.

Nooooo I don't think anyone sells out of a product. Though that would be interesting. As for Bill I was not aware of that till about a month or two ago. I still love my Rugers!

OC-Indian
10-01-2011, 11:44 PM
Yes. Somewhere buried deep and hidden inside all these evil companies is an effort to work within the pathetic legislative process AND turn a profit. If you don't like how a particular manufacturer is being run the answer is simple. Raise the cash to buy them out and run it yourself. It would be interesting to see your business plan

mlevans66
10-01-2011, 11:47 PM
Yes. Somewhere buried deep and hidden inside all these evil companies is an effort to work within the pathetic legislative process AND turn a profit. If you don't like how a particular manufacturer is being run the answer is simple. Raise the cash to buy them out and run it yourself. It would be interesting to see your business plan

Wait are you referring to me? Look I don't care I just didn't know. I understand why they do it to survive I just would like to know who's done it. I'm sure others have I just find it funny when they do. :D

OC-Indian
10-01-2011, 11:49 PM
What a non-business person calls "selling out" might be "survival" to an actual business person

mlevans66
10-01-2011, 11:56 PM
What a non-business person calls "selling out" might be "survival" to an actual business person

True but I still think it funny. I mean making all those rules for selling your guns to suck up to gungrabbers was just plain funny. I wonder how much business they loose? I mean they made a come back of course because I own a couple of there guns but I'm just glad I was collecting and paying attention around those times. I'm sure someone else will cater to the gun grabber again. Someone big like Colt or Remington and they'll only sell guns on odd number days or something. :rolleyes:

Shrubmaster
10-01-2011, 11:56 PM
Are you refering to shady dealings of a particular investment house buying literally every gun manufacturer they can get they're hands on and that soon, virtually all firearm production will be controlled by a handful of people?

mlevans66
10-02-2011, 12:05 AM
Are you refering to shady dealings of a particular investment house buying literally every gun manufacturer they can get they're hands on and that soon, virtually all firearm production will be controlled by a handful of people?

:eek: :TFH:

CessnaDriver
10-02-2011, 12:07 AM
Some of the most popular guns are made in countries that have tyranical gun laws. Americans are happy to buy them and some of that profit goes to those nations.

My new Ruger came with NRA literature.
My new S&W came with NRA literature.

BillCA
10-02-2011, 1:38 AM
William Ruger agreed with Congresscritters that civilians didn't need a magazine that would hold more than 12 rounds. Somewhere along the line, a Congressional decision made that 10-rounds. Ruger was more interested in saving his bread & butter Mini-14/Mini-30 lines from inclusion as an "assault weapon".

During his lifetime, Ruger argued against producing "easily concealed" handguns like the SP-101 and making any Ruger semi-auto pistol concealable. The SP-101 came out because of the huge demand when Colt cut it's revolver production down to SAA's, the Python/Anaconda and phased out their Detective Specials. Ruger reportedly told designers he wouldn't approve any semi-auto pistol that "street punks could easily hide under a shirt", which resulted in the early P-series being large, bulkly and somewhat awkward guns. Ironically, their low price made them a "best buy" for street thugs using straw buyers.

S&W sold out to the Clinton administration for two reasons. First was to remain competitive in one of their most lucrative markets -- the federal LE agencies. Second was that the owners of the company at that time was the British company Tomkins, PLC. Tomkins is a conglomerate company and the owners had no real clue how gun owners felt about the politics of gun control. Once the deal was inked and the boycott was on, S&W found itself out in the cold. That allowed Saf-T-Hammer to purchase S&W for a song -- a mere $15 million -- and later opt out of the Clinton agreement.

Taurus added a lock on their hammer in order to avoid more lawsuits and keep guns flowing from Brazil to the US. Glock didn't care... they had a huge portion of the US LE market which was their bread & butter. Some companies added an internal lock as a pre-emptive move to avoid being drawn into more costly legal battles (e.g. Springfield, Bersa, et al).

Gun companies don't earn that much in the way of annual profits. A look at S&W shows it runs about 5% average. Compare that to other major corporations net margins and you'll see why legal hassles are a serious threat to their ability to remain in business.

Fjold
10-02-2011, 6:28 AM
Bill Cooper of Cooper Firearms came out as a big Obama supporter before the 2008 election. The comnpany removed him from the presidency but he still owns a big piece of the company.

CaliforniaLiberal
10-02-2011, 7:09 AM
BillCA brings up a good point about continuity of corporate management and culture.

Most gun manufacturers have gone bankrupt and been sold or died off entirely and had only the Brand Name to sell to a new manufacturer. Colt, Smith and Wesson, Marlin; many others.

Whoever they were and whatever they did in times past is not who they are now. New managers, new employees, just the brand carries on. Punishing or boycotting a brand for "selling out" is pointless if it's not the same entity.

Ruger is an exception, except in the sense that new decisions have been taken since the founder Bill Ruger passed away. I think you could say that they have repented of their "sell-out" of long ago and deserve forgiveness.

Quiet
10-02-2011, 7:17 AM
During the late-'80s through late-'90s, some firearm manufacturers (Colt, Ruger, S&W) supported or were unopposed to anti-gun laws. This was due to the corporate ownership of those manufacturers being civilian anti-gun and trying to make deals to secure Gov/Mil/LE contracts.

Since the early/mid-'00s, several of those firearm manufacturers (Colt, Ruger, S&W) have reversed their positions. This was due mostly to new ownership.

kurac
10-02-2011, 10:06 AM
Then we have Ronnie Barrett who decided not to sell his product to law enforcement agencies in CA since it was banned for civilian sales. If they other manufacturers could only follow his example.

-hanko
10-02-2011, 12:16 PM
Do a little history checkup on Spike's Tactical price "increases" prior to the last presidential election. Arseholes:mad:

-hanko

bwiese
10-02-2011, 12:25 PM
Understand that Bill Ruger, the man who sold us out to the government, is now dead and his company is doing everything in its power to undo what he did. They're back to making factory standard-cap magazines, CCW pistols, AR-15s, etc... Under Bill Ruger they weren't doing any of that.

Yup. The OP is dredging up old information.

These companies have undergone major restructuring.

Along with the Ruger changes mentioned by tuna_quesadila, S&W has undergone new mgmt a decade-ish ago. S&W even equips rifles with BulletButtons at the factory specifically for CA sales.

And former Ruger CEO (before that Gen. counsel & VP & COO) Steven Sanetti - who drove the above changes - is now President of NSSF.

bwiese
10-02-2011, 12:29 PM
Then we have Ronnie Barrett who decided not to sell his product to law enforcement agencies in CA since it was banned for civilian sales. If they other manufacturers could only follow his example.

Ronnie Barrett is a good guy.

But this was useless posturing to appeal to the uninformed. Nice PR for the noobs though.

I assure you that LAPD, LASD and many other CA LE agencies can readily acquire Barrett firearms and replacement parts thru distribution channels or via cooperating agencies in other states.

Nothing changed.

GWbiker
10-02-2011, 1:21 PM
Domestic gun manufacturers sold out to LBJ and his anti gun weenies in the mid 1960's which fueled the Gun Control Act 1968.

Prior to this, inexpensive Military surplus and commercial weapons from Europe were pouring into the US thru Interarms and other importers, which frustrated Colt, Ruger, S&W and High Standard sales.

Just Dave
10-02-2011, 3:02 PM
What a non-business person calls "selling out" might be "survival" to an actual business person

I agree. People go into business with the hopes of prospering, part of that is doing whatever it takes to survive.

mlevans66
10-02-2011, 9:17 PM
Yup. The OP is dredging up old information.

These companies have undergone major restructuring.

Along with the Ruger changes mentioned by tuna_quesadila, S&W has undergone new mgmt a decade-ish ago. S&W even equips rifles with BulletButtons at the factory specifically for CA sales.

And former Ruger CEO (before that Gen. counsel & VP & COO) Steven Sanetti - who drove the above changes - is now President of NSSF.

Yes I know I'm bring up old info but I wanted to know more. I just want to know for the sake of knowing. I still like Ruger and I got 2 S&W revolvers so I don't hold grudges for things I didn't know about.


I agree. People go into business with the hopes of prospering, part of that is doing whatever it takes to survive.

Which I understand I just didn't know about Ruger and S&W. I considered them as American as apple pie when it came to guns. As for saving your but to survive I'm glad they did it cause I like there guns. If you can not adapt in life then you will likey die. They adapted and overcame and that's good enough for me.