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View Full Version : New spin on Old question Ė 9mm or 40


EddieEd
10-01-2011, 9:45 AM
Ok this is an age old question but one Iíve yet to have answered, at lease in this way.

I plan to buy a hand gun and Iím kind of set in the PX4 storm, just not sure of the size, so the question which has been asks many times:

A 9mm or a 40

Now to add to this I will but it in a few condition, scenarios and possible situations.

Yes it for self-defense. Yes I will be taking it to the range to shoot, as I donít play Reach or Call of Duty it will be added to my hobbies as and if I can afford to do so with my rifles.

Iím wondering the difference in handling and more so in a situations than a range.
Yes I know that bigger is better and if I had my 180 watt plasma rifle that can eliminate about a dozen square meter :19:
(thatís still only about .003 of an acre so the target better be slow) I might be fine, but I left that on my other planet and anyway there are no battery pack here that can sustain even more than one shot so thatís a no go.

So back to earth and real world scenarios.
I know many love their 45 and are death sure they can hit a quarter size circle on a paper plate screaming ďhit me hit meĒ at 7 feet but again lets look at real scenarios.

A lone victim defending against one or more targets, possibly moving, possibly covered and possibly spraying lead in your immediate direction.
So yes shooting center mass is the way to go, quick easyÖ
But waitÖ
You look up form your cover (yes cover, weíve not standing toe to toe with a paper plate) and in your .000sec you notice no center mass (Ahhhh not what I saw on the videoÖ) your assailant is cover too. You may have a number of barriers and he may even be armored (vest or whatever).

You donít have the luxury of having 20 or so back ups to give the assailant multiple targets (like a police scenario) and not just you. And you donít have your Predator helmet to see your target through the walls (damn, left that one back on the other planet too).

You can spray back blindly and hope you can get a John McClain miracle shot that ricochet off the over head lamp, ricochets off a metal stub on the wall and hits your target on the back of the head (the old magic bullet theory) but Iím not holding my breath.

Anyone who knows combat may know it take a bit of HmmmÖ to look over your cover to acquire your target while you hear the pitter patter of lead over your head. With multiple targets spraying you, youíre playing lotto with you life.
Helmets help a little bit so long as you donít get a direct hit and give you bit of a sec to try and acquire your target but environment, barriers, distance, lead spray and even adrenaline can all play a factor against you.

I wonder where are those guns they promise, that can acquire a target and you can shoot around a corner and obstacle and hit your target, a mini guided missile of sorts. HmmÖ Oh wait that was the movies.

Iíll also mention that in this scenario we would not be going into the conflict like swat, guns drawn and aim at the ready. More likely you will be grabbing your gun where itís stored which already has a few sec working against you while they may in fact be aiming at you.

Now add this to the mixÖ. A bullet hits you in your good arm and now you have to try and defend yourself in the same situation with your weak hand.

In the military we had to practice firing single hand and weak hand and although it was doable in practice, on the run or moving I might be hoping for some help from that magic bullet.

So all in all Iím talking fast target acquisition, handling and accuracy for the task at hand, no paper plates.

Anyway I was thinking a 40 but not sure how much handling Iíll be giving up to a 9mm.
9mm ammo cost is a big plus but I would like that bit of extra power if possible.

I know some may say go rent but since it cost around $100 thatís almost one 5th of the cost, so I come here to ask and hopefully get some insight Iíve yet to see.

So has anyone shot both and for that matter, free handed.


Not a zombies scenario, for that Iíll be using my .22lr. Yea I know some of you guys want to use your 50cal for the zombie but I rather carry 2000 rd of 22 then a few mags of anything bigger. There may be 1000th of them and remember people, head shots, head shots only for those zombies. :rolleyes:

paul0660
10-01-2011, 9:49 AM
New spin?

caoboy
10-01-2011, 9:53 AM
Just pick one already. And get a glock fotay.

OC-Indian
10-01-2011, 9:54 AM
.30 carbine revolver

EddieEd
10-01-2011, 10:03 AM
New spin?

Yes the handling, I’ve read doz of post that talk about cost, kick, bigger is better or they are almost the same, whatever. But I’ve yet to hear someone who has used them both and maybe while in motion single handed. A little more then “I want more take down power on my paper plates” kind of deal.
Shooting at targets that don’t shoot back seem to me is what has been visualized more often.
That's why I ask.

redking
10-01-2011, 10:07 AM
.30 carbine revolver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

EddieEd
10-01-2011, 10:09 AM
Just pick one already. And get a glock fotay.

LOL.... I wish I could, and I will....

Why do so many like those glock... LOL

I was kind of set on the Berretta PX4 storm F. :)

vintagearms
10-01-2011, 10:11 AM
I have both and choose the 9mm. The .40 twists a bit too much one handed for me while the 9mm is managable.

EddieEd
10-01-2011, 10:12 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

Damn :eek: that thing is as old as dirt, just a few step up from rocks and clubs lol

Yea I know it would work but not quite what I was looking for.:)

EddieEd
10-01-2011, 10:14 AM
I have both and choose the 9mm. The .40 twists a bit too much one handed for me while the 9mm is managable.

Thx much... thats the kind of info I want to hear.

Oceanbob
10-01-2011, 10:22 AM
Either round is easy to shoot. Probably your decision should be based on cost per box of ammo.

Speculating about a zombie show down and grabbing a Glock 34 (9MM) or a Glock 35 (.40) the Glock 35 would be my choice.

(in real life it would be 10MM or .45 :43: )

I reload so cost of ammo is really not an issue these days.

Be well
Bob

billybob_jcv
10-01-2011, 10:26 AM
I suspect you are worrying at the margins. If the world's law enforcement agencies can't come to a single decision of "best", I really doubt you will either. "Best" will be the one you buy!! :)

OC-Indian
10-01-2011, 10:29 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aastruger30bh.htm

Grumpyoldretiredcop
10-01-2011, 10:33 AM
Not much of a new spin. At HD ranges, either round will work with proper shot placement. Pick the one that feels better when you shoot it. The "magic bullet" theory should not be a factor in your decision.

paul0660
10-01-2011, 10:42 AM
Yes the handling, Iíve read doz of post that talk about cost, kick, bigger is better or they are almost the same, whatever. But Iíve yet to hear someone who has used them both and maybe while in motion single handed. A little more then ďI want more take down power on my paper platesĒ kind of deal.
Shooting at targets that donít shoot back seem to me is what has been visualized more often.
That's why I ask.

It still isn't new.

The PX4 weighs 28 oz, so you will notice the difference. Will it make a difference with follow up shots? Two handed range grip and stance, no, single handed under stress, probably. Only one way to know for sure.

dr_communist
10-01-2011, 10:46 AM
I have a bhp 9mm I have also shot a g19 and p95. I just bought a g22 and the recoil to me is not much greater than 9mm.

Synergy
10-01-2011, 10:54 AM
The key to any self defense weapon is to train with it. Unless you reload, 9mm is more affordable. So if this is your only handgun for now. I would recommend the 9.

Train with cheap bulk 9mm ball for defense go with a +P JHP. I prefer Win Ranger SXT +P, its in my M9 and USP45

EddieEd
10-01-2011, 10:54 AM
It still isn't new.

The PX4 weighs 28 oz, so you will notice the difference. Will it make a difference with follow up shots? Two handed range grip and stance, no, single handed under stress, probably. Only one way to know for sure.

Yes I know, only one way to know for sure. But it's the sure part that hasn't quite come clear yet :facepalm:

In the pass week Iíve already decided about a half dozen times and then something else changes my mind. lol

Decisions, decisions. :willy_nilly:

EddieEd
10-01-2011, 10:59 AM
The key to any self defense weapon is to train with it. Unless you reload, 9mm is more affordable. So if this is your only handgun for now. I would recommend the 9.

Train with cheap bulk 9mm ball for defense go with a +P JHP. I prefer Win Ranger SXT +P, its in my M9 and USP45

Thx was kind of thinking that, plus with what (vintagearms) said.

BlackRain17
10-01-2011, 11:19 AM
Yes the handling, Iíve read doz of post that talk about cost, kick, bigger is better or they are almost the same, whatever. But Iíve yet to hear someone who has used them both and maybe while in motion single handed. A little more then ďI want more take down power on my paper platesĒ kind of deal.
Shooting at targets that donít shoot back seem to me is what has been visualized more often.
That's why I ask.

Join the military and find out for yourself. Hoorah!!!

i_saw_americans_fighting
10-01-2011, 11:24 AM
get the new px4 storm in .45 :)

OC-Indian
10-01-2011, 11:24 AM
But what about double wielding PLR16's ?

Hopalong
10-01-2011, 11:28 AM
I like 9.

It's more fun for me to shoot, and cheaper

So I shoot a lot

And, if I don't say so myself

I do pretty well for a guy who's almost 60 and wears trifocals.

Oh, and did I mention, that I'm ok with the size of my penis?

darmog
10-01-2011, 11:34 AM
CZ P0-1 in 9mm. Good enough for range work, carry, and HD. Aluminum alloy construction gives it some heft that mitigates the 9mm recoil better one handed than say a polymer framed gun would, imo, when I compare it to my full sized XDM 9mm. This gun, for me, seems perfectly balanced in my hand no matter which hand or hold I use. I've also rented out the full size CZ SP-01 which felt a bit more muzzle heavy for me. Maybe it'll work for you if you have bigger/stronger hands than I do. Anyways, bottom line for me is if I was to go one handed or weak handed, I'd got with a metal framed gun instead of polymer just to give you that bit of an edge in mitigating recoil for quicker follow up shots.

Ubermcoupe
10-01-2011, 11:39 AM
Just buy both, I did. :D (and you know you will too)

JeremyS
10-01-2011, 11:53 AM
I find the recoil from .40 to be very sharp and fast. I do not consider myself recoil sensitive at all, but with a light gun I wouldn't feel confident putting rapid shots on target with a one-handed grip. I'm more confident with 9mm or .45 in this scenario. That said, I believe the only .40's I have shot happened to be an XD and an XDm and, like the poster above said, it had some twist in recoil that I did not like. There's a good chance I would enjoy .40 out of a different gun more though (I don't really like how XD's and Glocks feel in recoil).

Mikeb
10-01-2011, 12:17 PM
9 mini mite or 40 short and wimpy?
Hmmm
Mike

ZombieTactics
10-01-2011, 12:36 PM
In terms of performance in a typical HD/SD role, there will be no clear winner between 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP.

.40S&W will possibly penetrate a bit better through car doors and similar incidental barriers. Both 9mm and .45ACP probably have fewer long-term reliability issues in various guns.

You can play the "but what about ...?" game forever, and every caliber and round-type will have its share of advantages and disadvantages depending on the specific shooting problem being described. If you know who/what/where you'll be shooting in advance ... awesome, plan accordingly 'cuz there is a perfect round for that case.

If - like the rest of humanity - you lack that level of clairvoyance (lol) ... pick one, train with it seriously, and learn to shoot it well.

JaeOne3345
10-01-2011, 1:14 PM
Do you reload?

I can make my 40 loads shoot softer than my 9mm loads at the same power factor.

I shoot 9mm in my Glock 34 but I shoot 40 in my STI Edge 2011. I load for both.

A 200 grain bullet over 2.7 grains of WST feels softer than 9mm all day. That is of course a 40 minor load.

It's a toss up. On the clock I can't really tell.

40 is cool because I can safely load it to major power factor as well. It's "more versatile" if you reload.

shooterdude
10-01-2011, 2:18 PM
The answer is 9mm. Since the development of modern JHP bullets for 9mm, .40 and .45, the caliber argument is moot.

9mm is cost effective, causes effective tissue damage in human targets and is the most readily available.

These are the facts!

EddieEd
10-01-2011, 6:05 PM
Join the military and find out for yourself. Hoorah!!!

I already did my 20, and got my walking papers sign my Bush of all people. lol

Didn't buy any weapons while I was in because:
1 - I was deployed a lot.
2 Ė The military supply what I needed
3 - The ex got most of the extra money while I was in.

And for that matter I'm glad I didnít have any weapons, they may have been gone in the divorce. And then I would have been real sad.
All I had was an old .22lr

get the new px4 storm in .45
I live in the not so free state of Cali. :no: The only legal PX4s are the F and G model.

But what about double wielding PLR16's ?
Isn't that another Kel Tec.. :D I just got back from the range from shooting my SU16ca I just got this week after 12 long days of waiting.

Just buy both, I did. (and you know you will too)
You might be right but not for now. As I said before I'm trying to get other stuff, so money is limited not to mention it might be nice to pay my monthly bills. :rolleyes:


Thx a lot guy, you got me leaning toward the 9mm. I guess if it can hold me till I get my real firepower it should be good enough for now.

The performance and handling info is helpful.

junkit_boy
10-01-2011, 8:34 PM
88 magnum.. it shoots through schools.

Striker
10-01-2011, 10:12 PM
I already did my 20, and got my walking papers sign my Bush of all people. lol

Didn't buy any weapons while I was in because:
1 - I was deployed a lot.
2 Ė The military supply what I needed
3 - The ex got most of the extra money while I was in.

And for that matter I'm glad I didnít have any weapons, they may have been gone in the divorce. And then I would have been real sad.
All I had was an old .22lr
.

Unless you reload, 9mm is easier to handle. Actually, I think I can handle .45 better than .40 Also, if you're going to shoot factory ammo like most of us do; you'll be able to shoot a lot more 9mm simply because of price. IMHO, the 1911 is the easiest pistol to shoot, but the cost of .45 ammo is prohibitive, the 1911 has issues in 9mm and if you need to replace parts, you need to know how to fit them. My opinion, unless you think you're going to be shooting against barriers, like windshields or car doors, go 9mm. If you're going to shoot against barriers, go .40

junkit_boy
10-01-2011, 11:51 PM
Unless you reload, 9mm is easier to handle. Actually, I think I can handle .45 better than .40 Also, if you're going to shoot factory ammo like most of us do; you'll be able to shoot a lot more 9mm simply because of price. IMHO, the 1911 is the easiest pistol to shoot, but the cost of .45 ammo is prohibitive, the 1911 has issues in 9mm and if you need to replace parts, you need to know how to fit them. My opinion, unless you think you're going to be shooting against barriers, like windshields or car doors, go 9mm. If you're going to shoot against barriers, go .40


It is the easiest pistol to shoot..and there is no other pistol to shoot. There are some designs that are just perfected when they were born..just like the Fender Stratocaster and Gibson Les Paul.
Blonde, Brunettes, and Redheads... 9mm, 40 cal and 45 ACP. You have to love them all!

Voo
10-02-2011, 4:41 AM
Yes the handling, Iíve read doz of post that talk about cost, kick, bigger is better or they are almost the same, whatever. But Iíve yet to hear someone who has used them both and maybe while in motion single handed. A little more then ďI want more take down power on my paper platesĒ kind of deal.
Shooting at targets that donít shoot back seem to me is what has been visualized more often.
That's why I ask.

In terms of pure gun handling, the 9mm will be much easier to control single handed (whether weak or strong). This sort of thing comes up quite a bit in competition. A lot of people don't get enough practice on this and for me, that was an area where I tried to capitalize as I've spent quite a bit of time shooting strong/support hand only..

I dont have the data in front of me, but Ive used a timer and have practiced on both my G34 (9mm) and my G35 (40cal). While some strings were close, after a few hundred rounds you definitely see a pattern where the times are shorter when using the G34.

Simply put, the 9mm allowed me faster recovery/acquisition time as the gun recoils far less than either the 40 or 45. I only say this in regards to 1 handed shooting.. Using both hands, it's a complete wash as I have enough strength to manage the recoil in any of the typical calibers..

YMMV..

corvetteguy
10-02-2011, 7:57 AM
What ever you get, take a class! It's easy to imagine all of the what if's but now the rules of engagement have changed from the military into your civilian life and training for everyday life will pay off if the stuff hits the fan!

David

ap3572001
10-02-2011, 8:00 AM
Get a nine and practice.

cineski
10-02-2011, 8:08 AM
'Handling' has relatively less to do with the cartridge and more to do with the design of the gun when considering common pistol calibers. A Storm has a slightly higher bore axis than say a Glock so it will muzzle flip quite a bit more. I shot a Storm in .40 a while ago and the nose did rise quite a bit. I've never been a big fan of 40 until recently. I've always been a die hard 45 fan but now own 9mm for my wife and 10mm for the woods. I shoot much more since getting a 9mm and if you have good ammo it'll work fine. However, when ammo all but disappeared post Obama inaug the only ammo I saw avail were 40 because it's the most widely used domestic police round (don't quote me on this ;-). However, moving 1000 rounds of 9mm is a lot easier than 40. Need to be mobile with a lot of ammo? 9 is it. Especially with aluminum cased Blazer ammo. Light and potent. Since you've never shot a Storm, I'm assuming you're making the mistake of buying a gun because it looks cool. This is.....a mistake. There is great value in spending some money and renting a bunch of guns (not just the Storm) to see what works for you. And yes, a Glock Fotay = :) The more experience you have with pistols, the more you realize the best handling gun becomes the most beautiful and the pretty guns are best for fondling (that's not a bad thing).

Richard Erichsen
10-02-2011, 8:33 AM
Ok this is an age old question but one I’ve yet to have answered, at lease in this way.

<snip>
Now to add to this I will but it in a few condition, scenarios and possible situations.

Yes it for self-defense. Yes I will be taking it to the range to shoot, as I don’t play Reach or Call of Duty it will be added to my hobbies as and if I can afford to do so with my rifles.

I’m wondering the difference in handling and more so in a situations than a range.
Yes I know that bigger is better and if I had my 180 watt plasma rifle that can eliminate about a dozen square meter :19:
(that’s still only about .003 of an acre so the target better be slow) I might be fine, but I left that on my other planet and anyway there are no battery pack here that can sustain even more than one shot so that’s a no go.

<snip>

I'm not sure where to begin here with this meandering post, but for the most part this appears to be a training issue, not an equipment choice. If you aren't aware enough of your surroundings to have identified the beginning of a life and death situation and wisely looked for a path to escape in the first place, that was problem number one.

I'd advise taking some courses at the beginning level and advance at your own pace. The purpose of "defense" is as a last resort when escape is no longer possible. A good trainer will help illuminate you on what's realistic and help reinforce the basic weapon handling, evaluation of threat level and proper attitude required.

R

Fjold
10-02-2011, 8:44 AM
Your scenario supposes multiple armored assailants firing from cover at a lone armed victim. Look up the FBI's statistics on how shootings go down for civilians and see how plausible that is.

Freq18Hz
10-02-2011, 8:54 AM
OP watches too many movies.


-Freq

loosewreck
10-02-2011, 8:55 AM
You guys actually read that whole original post? He lost me at "plasma rifle". :D

Anyhow, I agree with everyone that brought up training. With tons of ammo and training time you can make almost any handgun work.

timmyb21
10-02-2011, 8:59 AM
If we're talking cover you need to forget the pistol and go .308, or run if the bad guy taking cover. Now, as for what cal. I'd pick 9mm, simply because I never liked .40, just seemed like an answer to a question no one answered, and it costs nearly as much as .45acp, which I already have.

Spyder
10-02-2011, 10:11 AM
Your scenario supposes multiple armored assailants firing from cover at a lone armed victim. Look up the FBI's statistics on how shootings go down for civilians and see how plausible that is.

Oh come on! It COULD happen! I keep my Steyr Mannlicher loaded up with 4 rounds of 510 solids in .458 WinMag in case the elephant ever gets out of the SF zoo and finds its way up here to Sonoma County, and charges me in my driveway! ...you never know... :D

Gryff
10-02-2011, 4:04 PM
If you can only afford one gun, I recommend 9mm. Most-reasonably priced ammo, reduced recoil makes it more fun during extended range sessions, and there is quality SD ammo that is extremely effective.

If you can afford more than one gun, then I would get the .40 for self-defense and a 9mm for range shooting (assuming you don't want a .45).

For me, I have a .45 for home defense, a .40 for LTC, and my range/competition guns are 9mm. I chose .40 for LTC because it provides what (to me) is the best balance between largest caliber possible, smallest size possible, and ammo capacity.

RGERBER
10-02-2011, 4:28 PM
I feel your dilemma and I can tell you what I have done, I went Glock 22 .40 cal in Gen 4 ( much better grip ) for home defense, you can get a gen 4 in Ca. by going the single shot conversion, there is a sticky on how this works. I already had some large capacity Mags in both 9mm and .40 cal. Since Glocks have been around for years. I have since added a tactical light and really like it for noises that go bump in the night.

Later I bought a Lone Wolf 9mm barrel for that same gun for $ 115.00 – it takes no tools and 1 min to make the switch. Like you said 9mm ammo is cheaper and my wife and daughter can use it better that way if needed. - i keep HST hollow points around in both calipers. the newer ammo really helps with the 9mm not up to par debate.

Like I said I already had the mags, now since the .40 was for home deference I later bought a mag repair kit and replaced the spring and follower as luck would have it the newer followers are better anyway, I also did the body later when it started to swell.

You do not want to repair your mags all at once because that can be determined has manufacturing. So do it a little at a time. Also there is no reason to keep the old parts; the burden of proof is not on you. And it is not illegal to own a high cap mag just to buy, sell, or manufacture them.

I will someday replace some of the old parts on the 9mm mags as well. hope this helps

bsg
10-02-2011, 4:33 PM
Oh come on! It COULD happen! I keep my Steyr Mannlicher loaded up with 4 rounds of 510 solids in .458 WinMag in case the elephant ever gets out of the SF zoo and finds its way up here to Sonoma County, and charges me in my driveway! ...you never know... :D


i commend you for being prepared for elephants and such; seriously.