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Ordnance1
09-30-2011, 8:52 PM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

69Mach1
09-30-2011, 8:55 PM
I guess the 1st Amendment doesn't apply at that school either.

Great job girl!

bulgron
09-30-2011, 8:56 PM
I'd start by talking to the principal, and I'd bring a copy of Heller and McDonald with me as reading material for not just the principal, but also for the teacher in question. If that didn't do it, I'd go raise hell at the school board.

But more than anything else, I'd have a long talk with my daughter about the broken ideas some people have about the 2A, and I'd take it as an opportunity to teach her how to deal with people in authority who want to limit our rights.

If she has to write a paper about our rights, make sure she writes about the 2A; again, heavily referencing the Supreme Court decisions.

anthonyca
09-30-2011, 8:56 PM
When I was in high school there was an ACLU poster on the wall that was completely missing the second amendment. The teacher said it was not part of the bill of rights. :confused:

quick draw mcgraw
09-30-2011, 8:56 PM
Sounds like it's time to open up a can of 2A Whoop-*** on the teacher, principle, and school board!!!

freonr22
09-30-2011, 8:57 PM
I know they are swamped!!! But is something like this of interest to cgf? I mean to say, the teaching of anti's begin in school.... Just a thought

rimfire78
09-30-2011, 8:57 PM
Follow your daughters brave lead. Set up a meeting with the teacher and the principal and reiterate what she said. And while you're at it, tell the principle he handled the situation badly too. Telling the truth shouldn't be perceived as disruptive.

BroncoBob
09-30-2011, 8:59 PM
Parent / teacher conference with principle and school board members in attendance. Let them know that the Supreme Court up held the 2A.

Dreaded Claymore
09-30-2011, 8:59 PM
Definitely file any kind of complaint you can, for starters. I'm not sure what else you can do, though.

When I was in high school biology, during the two days we were supposed to talk about evolution, the teacher "just happened" to get sick. The substitute who replaced her was the retired teacher who had been the head of the science department. He proceeded to yell at us about God and the Bible for two days. The stupid Please don't defeat the word filters didn't know how to answer my questions about why his Christian religious beliefs were relevant in an exploration of biological science, but my Wiccan beliefs weren't for some reason.

Another teacher told me about how this guy had fed the same garbage to every student who went through his hands during the decades that he taught at the high school, and about how her father had tried tirelessly to get this "science" teacher fired, to no avail.

I'm sorry to be so discouraging, but the small amount of experience I have in situations like this indicate that the road ahead of you is pretty hard.

tuna quesadilla
09-30-2011, 9:01 PM
File a complaint saying that the teacher touched your daughter inappropriately?

7x57
09-30-2011, 9:01 PM
Funny this topic comes up--I was just putting this in my .sig:


What do you need guns for if you are going to send your children, seven hours a day, 180 days a year to government schools? What do you need the guns for at that point?

7x57

c good
09-30-2011, 9:02 PM
Call Sean Hannity...he loves to get this kind of educational abuse out there.

CSACANNONEER
09-30-2011, 9:03 PM
Go to a school board meeting and ask the school board if they gave the teacher the authority to teach the students that it's OK to ignore certain parts of the constitution as long as you don't agree with them. Then, go ahead and ask them if any of them even knows what the constitution says and why there have been ammendments. Finally, ask them "If the 2A no longer applies, why hasn't it been removed?"

JaMail
09-30-2011, 9:03 PM
seriously, i think someone should CGF to do a money bomb for this, as sad as it sounds, litigation is sometimes the only thing that works, and the principal has already blown it off.

do you have any pro 2A legislators around? get them involved.


if CGF did a money bomb on this, i would throw in 10.00 if we get 1k people to donate, might be enough to make it worthwhile to cause some noise in your city, county.

JaMail
09-30-2011, 9:03 PM
seriously, i think someone should CGF to do a money bomb for this, as sad as it sounds, litigation is sometimes the only thing that works, and the principal has already blown it off.

do you have any pro 2A legislators around? get them involved.


if CGF did a money bomb on this, i would throw in 10.00 if we get 1k people to donate, might be enough to make it worthwhile to cause some noise in your city, county.

taperxz
09-30-2011, 9:05 PM
Don't be surprised! My Daughter has been told the same thing for years! She is now going to the University of Hawaii where the same thing goes on. Right up until her boss/ professor who teaches biological animal sciences told her she was from Louisiana and is a big time hunter! She! the professor! Wants to come to my place to hunt turkey!! Remember this! No matter what the teachers say. YOU have the ultimate influence and its up to YOU to mould you children. The teach has an agenda but you have a life obligation! Never forget that! Keep her on the right path and educate her its your job! She will be fine if you do your job!

HowardW56
09-30-2011, 9:05 PM
I think a polite, well worded letter to the principal outlining that the entire bill of rights is applicable in this country and how you while you respect the teacher's right to not care for guns, that you find it offensive that the teacher is attempting to indroctronate the students with her political views.

Teach the facts, not opinion!

Drivedabizness
09-30-2011, 9:09 PM
school board meeting.....formal complaint re: teacher and principal. Let new school board candidates know that civil rights are important and any public official who supports discrimination needs to go away easy or hard, their choice.

Sounds harsh I know...I'm just about done being patient. I just don't see a reason to put off insisting on our rights.

huntercf
09-30-2011, 9:10 PM
Ok as a teacher I have to weigh in on this one. First of all I have to say after reading what your daughter told the teacher I have to say GREAT job to you and your wife on your parenting skills. If I were you I would contact the school board members and voice your outrage but in a calm manner. Explain to them that under federal law your daughter's teachers are required to be "highly qualified" and that making up their own constitution your daughter's teacher might be considered "underqualified". Tell your daughter that a teacher said "Thank You" for standing up for her and our constitutional rights. You might call the principal and tell him you are going to reward your daughter for her obvious intelligence and take her out to exercise her 2A rights during the week and he can deal with the loss of ADA. I would also recommend stopping at the local gun shop on your way to the range and putting a nice rifle (or shotgun) in jail for her...to celebrate.

InGrAM
09-30-2011, 9:12 PM
It is more liberal indoctrination. They do it to suit their own personal goals. I doubt her teacher was personally doing it to be anti-civil rights, but it comes from the top down. Her teacher is paid to distort history and teach the liberal agenda. It comes with all schools, especially ones in liberal states like CA. You are a good man for teaching your daughter what is right. A lot of those kids are lost causes already.
I cannot tell you the amount of brainwashing I have experienced over the years. I am very thankful for having a Father like mine. I never believed any amount of propaganda, any teacher ever tried to indoctrinate me with.

No offense to any teachers, I have had some great ones. It is when they try and indoctrinate kids that I see them as thugs attacking our nations youth for their own personal goals.

OC-Indian
09-30-2011, 9:13 PM
Going to the school won't do crap. Call your local FOX News station and request they interview your daughter

FishNFool
09-30-2011, 9:17 PM
I always say never let anyone spread any misinformation ever about the 2A or firearms. Never ever. I would go after them any legal way that I could. Calling the right media people sounds like a good start.

meaty-btz
09-30-2011, 9:19 PM
Sir,
as a public school employee.

BRAAAAVOOOO. Your daughter gives me hope in the future! As for the teacher, the principle and the school board. BURN THEM FROM STEM TO STERN! I have not yet begun to fight!

Also, please, let you daughter know how much we support her and how proud we are for her strength and willingness to speak up.

CAL.BAR
09-30-2011, 9:22 PM
Have your daughter ask the teacher if he thinks there are any more Constitutional Rights (in the original bill of rights no less) that he thinks "don't really apply anymore"

gatdammit
09-30-2011, 9:23 PM
Call Fox News... done done done and done!!!

BayAreaShooter
09-30-2011, 9:24 PM
First off I applaud your daughter for standing up for herself and the 2A. I would be very upset if I were in your shoes. The first thing that comes to mind is call your local news station and see if they want a good story. They would probably spin it to make it against the 2A so that might not be the best idea.

abechira
09-30-2011, 9:24 PM
That is just wrong!!! Get your facts straight and file a complaint with the school board. This is no joking matter!!! It reminds me of a neighbor of mine who practices law, specifically for the banking industry, she claims that the constitution is antiquated for our current society, which usually ended with me saying something like '... from my dead cold hands...'. We have our differences but she always commented that I was the only conservative she liked. Don't know if that is good or bad, it does suggest that I do get along with all types :-)

taperxz
09-30-2011, 9:24 PM
Please guys!! Understand that the girls grades are at risk!! As a parent YOU are responsible for educating you child! AND how to get along/buffalo the anti's! Teach your daughter how to get good grades and educate the antis! ;) You really cant come storming with the lawyers in this situation. Let her educate them with real time knowledge

freonr22
09-30-2011, 9:25 PM
Can we have a video feed of the follow up conversation? Some this like this could be perfect to become epic!

Josh3239
09-30-2011, 9:26 PM
She won't teach the 2nd Amendment because it is a remnant of colonial days, but will teach the 3rd. This teacher is out of her mind. Um how many gun owners are there versus how many people have had troops quartered in their home against the homeowners consent in the last... I don't know... 150 years?

Maybe your daughter should teach the class instead? A lot of good advice in this thread though.

safewaysecurity
09-30-2011, 9:29 PM
Had teachers tell me the same thing. Even in college. Most won't even talk about it but when they do they will mention the "collective right". Then I raise my hand and the conversation goes something like this

Me: Actually the Second Amendment is an individual right just like the other ones. There are no "collective rights"

Teacher: Well it's debatable

Me: The U.S Supreme Court seems to disagree with you ( I love being able to throw that line out. )

EMT John
09-30-2011, 9:33 PM
Smart girl!!!

Rhythm of Life
09-30-2011, 9:34 PM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

Hank Hill had to teach Bobby about the Alamo.


Be proud of your girl.

SwissFluCase
09-30-2011, 9:38 PM
I understand that you are upset, but this might actually be your daughter's fight. Maybe coaching her to use her 1st Amendment rights to protect her 2nd would be useful. Has she read Heller and McDonald? That gives her plenty of talking points. I'm sure many of the stundents at that school support the 2nd Amendment. She might also contact some of the gun groups to seek advice. She could cause a big stir at the school, and possibly get national media attention. She would have the power of social media at her fingertips.

That would be a civics lesson she would never forget.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

mosinnagantm9130
09-30-2011, 9:39 PM
Me: The U.S Supreme Court seems to disagree with you ( I love being able to throw that line out. )

Thats one of my favorite lines when dealing with the "arrogant, and never going to change their mind" type anti.

jb7706
09-30-2011, 9:51 PM
A call to the Pacific Justice Institute (http://www.pacificjustice.org/) may yield results.

Don29palms
09-30-2011, 9:56 PM
It's the Bill of Rights not the Bill of Privileges. (Though that is what it has become.) If that is the teacher's stand then the whole Constitution and Bill of Rights are moot.

five.five-six
09-30-2011, 10:01 PM
if she is tenured, you are peeing up a rope... teacher hase a right to her job

robcoe
09-30-2011, 10:01 PM
Wow, Woodlake highschool must have had the only Social Studies teacher who did not buy into the "some ammendemts are more equal than others" line.

snypr
09-30-2011, 10:03 PM
It is more liberal indoctrination. They do it to suit their own personal goals. I doubt her teacher was personally doing it to be anti-civil rights, but it comes from the top down. Her teacher is paid to distort history and teach the liberal agenda. It comes with all schools, especially ones in liberal states like CA. You are a good man for teaching your daughter what is right. A lot of those kids are lost causes already.
I cannot tell you the amount of brainwashing I have experienced over the years. I am very thankful for having a Father like mine. I never believed any amount of propaganda, any teacher ever tried to indoctrinate me with.

No offense to any teachers, I have had some great ones. It is when they try and indoctrinate kids that I see them as thugs attacking our nations youth for their own personal goals.

^+1......

Bhobbs
09-30-2011, 10:03 PM
What else do you expect from a liberal indoctrination camp?

WatchMan
09-30-2011, 10:06 PM
Typical far-left response. Instead of rising to the challenge and accepting a civil, intelligent debate on the subject, the response was to toss her out of the class for "disruption". That is simply hilarious, and an underhanded concession that your daughter owned her. Way to go, both of you!

No please, please, don't let this go. :chris:

MrExel17
09-30-2011, 10:16 PM
:hurray::hurray::hurray:Good for her! How dare that "TEACHER" do that. I would file a complaint and back your daughter up!

Trojan Bayonet
09-30-2011, 10:20 PM
First of all, BRAVO! As a former public school teacher myself, congratulations for standing up to the liberal propagandists that infest classrooms, schools, and their bureaucracies.

As other posters have mentioned, a strongly worded yet diplomatic letter reprimanding the teacher's omission and dismissal of the Second Amendment to the teacher, principal, and school board is in order. Reinforce the the letter with citations from recent U.S. Supreme Court rulings and citations from History/Social Studies standards that are supposed to be taught in schools that should be available on state Department of Education websites.

If you make a claim that you will bring media attention to their omission, back it up and involve local TV, radio, newspaper, and internet outlets. Schools hate being in what I call "The Funny Papers".

Some teachers and professors believe that the U.S. Constitution is an archaic document, and by extension, the Second Amendment is an outdated anomaly. They cannot be selective in the application of that standard. By that definition, the First Amendment is also outdated when held to that standard.

When instructors state that the Second Amendment is an outdated anomaly in the Bill of Rights, they openly a display an ignorance of human history and the great works of philosophers dating back to Plato and Machiavelli. They demonstrate an ignorance of the victimization of disarmed peoples - Jews, Armenians, Blacks among the most prominent examples. This intellectual dishonesty is so prevalent in schools and colleges to the point where those who choose to learn in our schools have to navigate a sea of dishonesty, lies, and propaganda worthy of publication in Pravda.

tonelar
09-30-2011, 10:26 PM
What school is this? Mogadishu High? Cmon, name some names.

Bruce
09-30-2011, 10:30 PM
I sent an e-mail containing post #1 and a link to this thread to Sean Hannity's FoxNews e-mail address. Let's see what happens.

Dave A
09-30-2011, 10:31 PM
Yes please, name the school, because if it is in my area I want to know for my Grandchildren s sake.

freonr22
09-30-2011, 10:32 PM
How about the ACLU?

zhyla
09-30-2011, 10:32 PM
The teacher in question holds an opinion that isn't exactly unique. I'm not sure it's really worth getting that worked up over... she just hasn't read Heller. Might be worth attempting educate her rather than making a stink.

Arisaka
09-30-2011, 10:44 PM
**** her up!

moleculo
09-30-2011, 10:57 PM
Care to divulge which school district this is?

misterjake
09-30-2011, 11:01 PM
When I was hired to teach, I signed a sworn document that I would teach to the constitution.

My students are currently making Second Amendment posters for my government class. They got to choose any of the bill of rights but over half chose the second....it almost brought a tear to my eye...

imtheomegaman
09-30-2011, 11:09 PM
...snip... Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments...snip... My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not...snip

While I completely agree with your daughters reaction to the teacher inferring that the second amendment doesn't apply today, I also see another side to this. The teacher was covering the 1, 3, and 9th amendment, not the 1, 3,4,5,6,7,8, and 9th, so she wasn't singling out the second amendment.

Your daughter, while correctly objecting to the teachers comment about the second, may have let her temper get to her judging by how you described the incident.

By all means I would encourage a teacher, principal, parent meeting but keep an open mind to what may have occurred in the classroom in reference to your daughters actions irrespective of the second amendment issue, which should also be addressed.

.02 <

gunsmith
09-30-2011, 11:14 PM
It might not really be the teachers fault!

We are on the frontlines of this argument & the Heller/McDonald cases are relatively recent. All the high-school text books say the say thing in California ( afaik ) the text books teach that the 2A is only applicable to the National Guard.

This has bothered me for a long time since dating the mom of a highschooler 10 years ago. The real culprit are the text books-they need to be updated.

The teacher is just a bureaucrat incapable of independent thought, she only knows what the text book says and probably knows more about Lady Gaga then recent SCOTUS decisions

Packy14
09-30-2011, 11:26 PM
Definitely file any kind of complaint you can, for starters. I'm not sure what else you can do, though.

When I was in high school biology, during the two days we were supposed to talk about evolution, the teacher "just happened" to get sick. The substitute who replaced her was the retired teacher who had been the head of the science department. He proceeded to yell at us about God and the Bible for two days. The stupid Please don't defeat the word filters didn't know how to answer my questions about why his Christian religious beliefs were relevant in an exploration of biological science, but my Wiccan beliefs weren't for some reason.

Another teacher told me about how this guy had fed the same garbage to every student who went through his hands during the decades that he taught at the high school, and about how her father had tried tirelessly to get this "science" teacher fired, to no avail.

I'm sorry to be so discouraging, but the small amount of experience I have in situations like this indicate that the road ahead of you is pretty hard.


Probably because your beliefs are straight from the pit of hell :)

Anyway, back to the OP.... I'd let CGF know, and I would take this up the chain of command to the school board if the principle does not correct the teacher and have her apologize to your daughter. Good job by the way, raising an informed child!

Trojan Bayonet
09-30-2011, 11:33 PM
It might not really be the teachers fault!

We are on the frontlines of this argument & the Heller/McDonald cases are relatively recent. All the high-school text books say the say thing in California ( afaik ) the text books teach that the 2A is only applicable to the National Guard.

This has bothered me for a long time since dating the mom of a highschooler 10 years ago. The real culprit are the text books-they need to be updated.

The teacher is just a bureaucrat incapable of independent thought, she only knows what the text book says and probably knows more about Lady Gaga then recent SCOTUS decisions

That's not necessarily true. A teacher that is doing his job is using the textbook as one of several instructional tools. Over-reliance on a textbook indicates laziness on the instructor's part on delivering academic content.

There are also teachers that don't buy into the "party" line about the 2A and other issues. I was one of them, but I had to frame the arguments very delicately since I was teaching at the elementary level.

Dreaded Claymore
09-30-2011, 11:41 PM
It is more liberal indoctrination. They do it to suit their own personal goals. I doubt her teacher was personally doing it to be anti-civil rights, but it comes from the top down. Her teacher is paid to distort history and teach the liberal agenda. It comes with all schools, especially ones in liberal states like CA. You are a good man for teaching your daughter what is right. A lot of those kids are lost causes already.
I cannot tell you the amount of brainwashing I have experienced over the years. I am very thankful for having a Father like mine. I never believed any amount of propaganda, any teacher ever tried to indoctrinate me with.

No offense to any teachers, I have had some great ones. It is when they try and indoctrinate kids that I see them as thugs attacking our nations youth for their own personal goals.

Yeah, but fortunately conservative teachers don't ever engage in indoctrination. (see my earlier post in this thread.)

Connor P Price
09-30-2011, 11:44 PM
If I ever have a daughter, and she turns out to be even half as awesome as the OP's daughter, I'll be the happiest man alive.

billybob_jcv
09-30-2011, 11:44 PM
I am continually appalled at the arrogance and ignorance of the majority of middle school teachers I have met. My kids had really good elementary school teachers, and generally competent high school teachers, but middle school was a disaster - simply awful. The teachers we saw had poor attitudes, completely outdated knowledge & methods and absolutely no sense of accountability for the critical job they were hired to do. A child needed to either fit their mold, or they were in trouble. I am *so* glad my kids are now out of middle school!

I will never forget trying to send an email to my son's computer teacher - and the email bounced because his mailbox was full. When I asked him about that, his reply was "you need to call me, I don't read school email" - this was from a computer teacher!!!

minuteman
09-30-2011, 11:44 PM
Props to your daughter for standing up for the truth.

WDE91
09-30-2011, 11:48 PM
I am liking what I am seeing here

please please push this

gunsmith
09-30-2011, 11:48 PM
Props to your daughter for standing up for the truth.

yup. now please tell us the teacher/school

freonr22
10-01-2011, 12:05 AM
Never give up

CC Gunsmithing
10-01-2011, 12:08 AM
I say she gets the pony this year! We need more educated, headstrong, thinking kids like that!

Falconis
10-01-2011, 12:14 AM
yeah my vote is to raise a stink about this with Fox and the school board. If you look at it, I do agree, that it's the first steps into indoctrination.

llamatrnr
10-01-2011, 12:15 AM
Let me know where to sign that letter . . .

Falconis
10-01-2011, 12:23 AM
and to the OP, if you are having doubts, look at it this way. This is exactly what the libs did to water down and pervert the way we use to do things. They raised stinks, found legal recourses, and essentially had nothing better to do then force the rest of us to learn the way they wanted us to be taught.

Now I think it's up to us to reverse the tide. I don't think anyone here thinks this is tolerable. So if you want, give us the info and we can start by calling the principal's office before you take it to the next step.

spoolinq
10-01-2011, 12:30 AM
subscribed to this thread. Waiting for more info.

mossy
10-01-2011, 12:36 AM
your daughter has earned a special dinner and a trip to the range. next call the school board and express your outrage.

oni.dori
10-01-2011, 12:56 AM
if she is tenured, you are peeing up a rope... teacher hase a right to her job

Tenures can be broken if a teacher acts irrisponsibly in the classroom, or violates expected codes of conduct (such as forcing/teaching their own religeous/political views, instead of sticking to accepted curriculum, this includes their own opinions to RKBA). Simply by forcing her opinion on the RKBA as scholarly fact, she has violated the childrens rights, and (most likely to get you somewhere) done a HUGE HR no-no by offending your daughter. My stong suggestion is you go STRAIT to the school board about it, and file a complaint (going to principals goes nowhere, because they either A. agree with the teacher in the first place, or B. will cover for/defend the teacher to avoid a scandal and potentially losing funding from it). If you go over the principal's head to HIS boss, then they can be forced in to compliance. If that fails, lawyer up. There is a big example to be made there. Whatever you do, I urge you not to just let this fall to the wayside. For your daughters sake, and for all of us fighting for our 2A rights.

NotEnufGarage
10-01-2011, 1:06 AM
File a complaint and out the teacher publicly.

scarville
10-01-2011, 1:22 AM
Liberals want to excise the Second Amendment from the Constitution. Big surprise. Conservatives what the Earth to be 6000 years old and Thomas Jefferson removed from any studies about the Enlightenment. Another big surprise. State funded schools have always been servants of state propaganda. What else could they be? Public schools are patterned after the Prussian model which was designed to indoctrinate the masses.

The Endarkenment marches on.

GWbiker
10-01-2011, 1:24 AM
Has anyone consider that teacher may be correct?

In several states, California being one, the second amendment is not a right.

meaty-btz
10-01-2011, 1:29 AM
Has anyone consider that teacher may be correct?

In several states, California being one, the second amendment is not a right.

incorrect, with heller incorporation has happened. That one sticks one's head in the sand does not change the facts.

GWbiker
10-01-2011, 1:38 AM
incorrect, with heller incorporation has happened. That one sticks one's head in the sand does not change the facts.

Sorry, only when ALL California counties become "Shall Issue", will the second amendment become a right in your state.

I can't think of any other state that has a more complex, confusing set of laws governing a right.

meaty-btz
10-01-2011, 1:49 AM
The Law can no more "give" a right than they can "take it". Rights are above the law, only your own fear and willingness to submit under fear of death/poverty lends any power to the Law of the Land.

Always remember that. The general populous (of gun owners) unwillingness to stand up is purely selfish in nature. They are afraid and continue to be so since no one wants to pay the price. Freedom is not, and never will be free. Others cannot earn it for you any more than they can give it to you or take it away. Only the individual decides that for themselves.

Remember always that if a Right is not worth your life then you have stated unequivocally that you do not hold your Right to be one. A Natural Right is not dictated by society nor by others support or lack there of it, it Is, of its own accord without support or acknowledgement. To be otherwise makes it other than a Right.

Jason P
10-01-2011, 1:52 AM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

IMO:

1. Your daughter kicks so much @$$ she should join the Marines tomorrow.
2. Not educating students about all their enumerated constitutional rights is negligence and damaging, sounds like I'd find a meanass attorney and get crackin' on that. In reality if a child brought a civil suit, they'd be as good a plaintiff as anybody if not better. Ever notice how many kids win court cases against their schools? Binding legal opinions:)
3. Just reading that made me clench my jaw tight and want to slap the pee out of someone.
4. Your daughter kicks @$$, just in case someone forgot.
5. What the l-lELL is wrong with these people?
6. If your daughter is going to be kicking @$$ anyway, buy her some steel toes.

Funtimes
10-01-2011, 2:33 AM
I would give my daughter flyers advocating the Second Amendment and let her pass them out at school lol. I would also probably take a look at the uniform regulations and see what my daughter could get away with.

I.e. "My math teacher said screw your civil rights." and wear it in front of her lol.

redrex
10-01-2011, 2:53 AM
That literally brought a tear to my eye.

On top of that, I highly recommend what SwissFlueCause said even if I can't even begin to understand his screen name.

I think she should start a petition to have a Bill of Rights day. They can have the whole school in the auditorium and then a teacher or student can stand up and read each one. And I would suggest as an act of contrition that the teacher in question be nominated to stand up there and do it right this time.

shocknm
10-01-2011, 2:56 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=315923&highlight=teacher

Reminded me of this experience...

A little back story: The end of the year my daughter's 3rd grade class were all made to memorize and recite the 1st Amendment.
As my daughter was approaching her D-Day she asked me to help her memorize it. She was, thus far, just trying to do it by memory. That is to say, she had NO IDEA what she was actually saying or what it meant. This gave me a great chance to go, line by line, and explain what each statement actually MEANT (she rolled her eyes as I started because she knows how I am with this stuff....lol). It worked out GREAT and it gave me a chance (as I do sometimes) to talk to her about the Constitution and to also talk to her about the reality of our education system. I walk a fine line when I do that because I don't want to undermine her teachers authority. Mostly I do it by asking her opinion on things....which is what happened here.

I told her what the SECOND amendment was, read it to her, and told her what it meant. Then I told her that a lot of teachers won't actually teach the second amendment because they personally don't like guns. And I asked her what she thought about that. Being that she's the smartest 3rd Grader on the planet, she said (paraphrasing) that it was sneaky for a teacher to only present one side of the issue because, without BOTH sides, kids won't be able to make up their own minds.

So I gave her some homework (school...homework...uh...hm) anyways....I told her that the next time the class is talking about the 1st amendment, ask her teach what the SECOND amendment is. I gave her strict instructions NOT to challenge her teacher or to start some kind of debate (keep in mind...she's in 3rd grade here) but to just ask the question and tell me what she says (keeping in mind the conversation that we just had about it). So the next day, she asks her teacher. To which the teacher replied, "I don't know...we'll have to look it up sometime.". And changed the subject!

While I'm obviously disappointed in the teachers answer...it feels good to be right in my daughters eyes. That way she'll listen to me NEXT time we have this type of discussion.

davbog44
10-01-2011, 3:30 AM
If I may make an analogy .....

Before you bring a newborn home from the hospital, you "baby proof" your house; cover electrical plugs, those annoying locks on the cabinets, etc.

Before you send your child into a public school, you liberal proof them. It sounds to me as if the OP has done an outstanding job of that.

vantec08
10-01-2011, 4:39 AM
. . . .. . and the beat goes on.

bruss01
10-01-2011, 5:43 AM
Wow, 3 pages huh?

I read the op and a few following.

Long story short, unless you've got a ton of time, money and the backing of other parents, you're not going to change the teacher or the school district. Sad, but that's the way of things in today's world.

My humble advice is to give the teacher a brief summary of the Heller/McDonald cases (two printed pages should suffice) and don't fret over whether she reads it or it goes to file #13. Then take your daughter out for a huge ice cream sundae and buy her that bike she's been wanting. Teach her that sometimes you can change things, sometimes you can't, but it's admirable to stand up for principle anyway, and you're very proud of her.

Dutch3
10-01-2011, 5:55 AM
Congratulations to the OP for raising his daughter to think for herself and not absorb the propaganda doled out in public schools.

I am also a public school employee and am witness to the drivel being taught to our children on a daily basis. Although Butte is a relatively Pro-2A county as far as California goes, the majority of the teachers I work with are pacifistic liberal crybabies. There are a few that have their heads on straight, but they are hobbled by district policies and the textbooks they are required to use by the State.

I have always taught my own kids to never take anything at face value, but rather to analyze the facts and come to their own conclusions. My youngest just started high school, and I am glad she is nearly done with public education, as I have seen it go from bad to worse over the past 12 years or so.

huntercf
10-01-2011, 6:28 AM
Sorry, only when ALL California counties become "Shall Issue", will the second amendment become a right in your state.

I can't think of any other state that has a more complex, confusing set of laws governing a right.

The 2A is an individual right, PRK just doesn't allow us to exercise them.

edwardm
10-01-2011, 6:30 AM
All the more reason my kid will go to a private school. Granted, it's no guarantee, but we've already toured several in the area (in fact she goes to one of them now for preschool) and liked what we saw.

In one school they had displayed various projects put together by the 8th grade class. One of the projects was a detailed account of some aspect a kid's family heritage and history. His chosen topic was the fact that his family was one of active hunters.

So this display had a relatively well-written essay about the outdoors, hunting ethics, methods of take, use of game, etc. It was even accompanied by pictures of this young boy holding a rifle, kneeling next to his first deer, dad proudly beaming next to him. I had to ask the principal (I acted the liberal bit)...

"This sort of thing is considered OK around here?"

"Of course. Hunting is as much a part of our national heritage as anything else we do."

"But he's pictured holding a g.g.g...GUN!"

"And it appears he's doing so responsibly, with an adult, his father, actually. He's a nice young man and really seems to enjoy his time in the outdoors."

I was pretty much sold at that point.

"But,

wazdat
10-01-2011, 7:46 AM
I'd suggest you and your daughter schedule meetings to discuss with the teacher, principle, superintendent. Keep working your way up the chain and make sure your daughter is part of the process.

My kids are in college now, but during the middle and high school years, their teachers, principles and superintendents knew that my wife and I would not stand for any BS like this and on issues that we chose to address, we usually prevailed.

Good luck.

greasemonkey
10-01-2011, 8:03 AM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?
She can if she's tenured :facepalm:

Rhythm of Life
10-01-2011, 8:12 AM
if she is tenured, you are peeing up a rope... teacher hase a right to her job

BS

I have gotten rid of a tenured teacher in high school. You just need skills and know how to work the system.

GaryV
10-01-2011, 8:19 AM
I think going directly to the school board, the media, or worse, going to court, is premature. There's no reason to go nuclear right out of the box. I'd ask for a meeting with the principle and the teacher first, and point out that:

1) Most actual constitutional scholars disagree with the teacher, so what she is teaching is not the accepted standard within the discipline (maybe take Akhil Reed Amar's book The Bill of Rights with you to make the point).

2) The Supreme Court has already ruled on the meaning and modern relevance of the 2nd Amendment, so, whatever the teacher personally believes, the current constitutional situation in the US is that the 2nd Amendment is a modern and functional part of the Bill of Rights.

3) That, just like creationism in a Biology class, the teacher has no right or authority to teach her own political/social views as a substitute for the selected curriculum, and that if she persists in violating this ethical standard, and if your daughter does not receive an apology for being disciplined over the incident, you will take the matter up with the school board/a lawyer/the media.

Better that you convert them through reason than force them to comply unwillingly through coercion from above. You might actually get them to understand why what they did was wrong if you give them that chance first. If you go over their heads (which you still might need to do), you're more likely to have them to dig in their heels and defend their actions in the hope of saving face.

rkt88edmo
10-01-2011, 8:23 AM
Causing a fuss and ruckus may feel good temporarily, but won't change much and will end up burning a lot of your energy.

Your daughter did great. IMO the best approach is to have a calm argument about when the subject comes up and to make sure your daughter knows you support her. Insulting the teacher directly will most likely end up in more grief for her, but politely asking questions and politely disagreeing shouldn't rock the boat too much.

Speaking up in class is great - overly aggressive disruption is not.

In any case, be proud, she sounds awesome.

greasemonkey
10-01-2011, 8:32 AM
I think going directly to the school board, the media, or worse, going to court, is premature. There's no reason to go nuclear right out of the box. I'd ask for a meeting with the principle and the teacher first, and point out that:

1) Most actual constitutional scholars disagree with the teacher, so what she is teaching is not the accepted standard within the discipline (maybe take Akhil Reed Amar's book The Bill of Rights with you to make the point).

2) The Supreme Court has already ruled on the meaning and modern relevance of the 2nd Amendment, so, whatever the teacher personally believes, the current constitutional situation in the US is that the 2nd Amendment is a modern and functional part of the Bill of Rights.

3) That, just like creationism in a Biology class, the teacher has no right or authority to teach her own political/social views as a substitute for the selected curriculum, and that if she persists in violating this ethical standard, and if your daughter does not receive an apology for being disciplined over the incident, you will take the matter up with the school board/a lawyer/the media.

Better that you convert them through reason than force them to comply unwillingly through coercion from above. You might actually get them to understand why what they did was wrong if you give them that chance first. If you go over their heads (which you still might need to do), you're more likely to have them to dig in their heels and defend their actions in the hope of saving face.

This meeting should be concluded by an invitation for your daughter to teach the principal and teacher some basic firearms safety and how to properly shoot a pumpkin!

glbtrottr
10-01-2011, 8:36 AM
Your daughter's behavior is a direct testament to her upbringing.

Please disclose the school. Also, please consider taking people's suggestion and having Fox News do a story on this. We have people here on Calguns (my wife included) that would be happy to ensure the coverage is groomed and appropriate.

a1c
10-01-2011, 8:39 AM
Wow, 3 pages huh?

I read the op and a few following.

Long story short, unless you've got a ton of time, money and the backing of other parents, you're not going to change the teacher or the school district. Sad, but that's the way of things in today's world.

My humble advice is to give the teacher a brief summary of the Heller/McDonald cases (two printed pages should suffice) and don't fret over whether she reads it or it goes to file #13. Then take your daughter out for a huge ice cream sundae and buy her that bike she's been wanting. Teach her that sometimes you can change things, sometimes you can't, but it's admirable to stand up for principle anyway, and you're very proud of her.

^ There.

The teacher may be brainwashed, or may be misinformed. I would give him that documentation and a nice letter, explaining that although it might be controversial, the fact is that SCOTUS confirmed in two cases in a row that the 2A is an individual right, and that his teaching was inaccurate at best, and biased at worse. Call him on it, but in a courteous, understanding manner. A lot of people who have no exposure to the gun culture are grossly misinformed. Many can be turned to understand how wrong they are, even if they don't like it.

The key is not to make it a huge deal, and not to make a scene. Show you're a reasonable person, and that you expect the best from him as a teacher, and therefore that he should be accurate and fair in his teachings of constitutional rights.

Mulay El Raisuli
10-01-2011, 8:59 AM
I think a polite, well worded letter to the principal outlining that the entire bill of rights is applicable in this country and how you while you respect the teacher's right to not care for guns, that you find it offensive that the teacher is attempting to indroctronate the students with her political views.

Teach the facts, not opinion!


I understand that you are upset, but this might actually be your daughter's fight. Maybe coaching her to use her 1st Amendment rights to protect her 2nd would be useful. Has she read Heller and McDonald? That gives her plenty of talking points. I'm sure many of the stundents at that school support the 2nd Amendment. She might also contact some of the gun groups to seek advice. She could cause a big stir at the school, and possibly get national media attention. She would have the power of social media at her fingertips.

That would be a civics lesson she would never forget.

Regards,


SwissFluCase


I like the idea of a two-pronged approach. The parent takes HowardW56's tack & adds that because the teacher is behind the times regarding current SCOTUS rulings (we'll call it that), it was wrong for her to punish the child. Then add in that since the teacher is so behind the times, it would be good for the school to have the daughter execute the second prong; a presentation like that suggested by SwissFluCase.

The teacher gets put in her place. The school learns something. The OP's daughter gets another opportunity to show what a truly awesome little girl she is.


When I was hired to teach, I signed a sworn document that I would teach to the constitution.

My students are currently making Second Amendment posters for my government class. They got to choose any of the bill of rights but over half chose the second....it almost brought a tear to my eye...


This was in the PRK???!!!


The Raisuli

GaryV
10-01-2011, 9:23 AM
If you do meet with the teacher and/or principle, one part of Reed Amar's book you might want to point out is this passage from the Afterward:

Had I set out to write a less textual, less constrained book about “liberty in America” – “these are a few of my favorite rights” – I must confess that I might have been tempted to avoid all mention of the right to keep and bear arms. But in a textualist book about the first ten amendments, I was obliged to confront the stubborn text that stands between the words of Amendments I and III; and in a textualist book about the core privileges and immunities of national citizenship affirmed by the Fourteenth Amendment, I was constrained to consider how the Second Amendment’s text was reglossed by [that (the 14th Amendment)] later constitutional text.

This makes clear that talking just about "a few of my favorite rights" isn't a legitimate method of discussing the Bill of Rights, that the 2nd Amendment is still part of the Bill of Rights, and that the 14th Amendment gave the 2nd Amendment a new and modern meaning and application, just as it did all the other rights it incorporates.

This last point is particularly important, because it goes directly to the teacher's incorrect assertion that the 2nd Amendment is a colonial-era anachronism. None of the rights in the 1st Amendment, for example, originally meant what we take them to mean today. Their original meanings were all changed by the passage and ratification of the 14th Amendment, which gave all the rights of The People their modern meanings and uses. So, whatever she's teaching about the Freedom of Speech or the Freedom of Religion isn't what those rights meant 200+ years ago either, and if she's going to accept the meaning and use of those rights as they were modified by the 14th Amendment, she needs to give the Right to Keep and Bear Arms the same treatment. And the meaning of that right, as modified by the 14A, is currently held in US law to be that described in Heller and McDonald.

tenpercentfirearms
10-01-2011, 9:26 AM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment.Note the teacher is not covering them all. She is not just skipping the 2nd.

Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them.That is your daughter's opinion. Really the teacher's duty is to cover CA Content Standard 8.2.6 8.2 Students analyze the political principles underlying the U.S. Constitution and
compare the enumerated and implied powers of the federal government.
.6 Enumerate the powers of government set forth in the Constitution and the fundamental
liberties ensured by the Bill of Rights.Personally, I like to tell students exactly what I think of the Amendments. I emphasize that the 2nd Amendment is critical to overall rights. I also de-emphasize the current importance of the 3rd Amendment since it really isn't an issue anymore. However, I do state it is a right. Are you going to tar and feather me for it?

She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education.As she should be. She forgot her place and insulted a teacher in front of her class. What? "Forgot her place"? Yeah, I said it.

I teach my students that life is a game. Learn how to play it. A teacher can kick you out of class for disrupting it. Is insulting the teacher in front of the rest of the class and telling her she doesn't know what she is doing a disruption? Without a doubt.

Had your daughter stuck to her initial line of reasoning that all of the Bill of Rights are important and they are most certainly relevant natural rights still belonging to the people of this very classroom and that she was disappointed that Mrs. Liberal wasn't teaching them all, she would have been fine.

The classroom isn't Calguns.net. Calling the teacher arrogant and irresponsible was out of line and she was booted for it. Now, what if your daughter had simply stated she disagreed with her teaching method and allowed the teacher to go on then told her that after class one on one? No disruption to class and no trip to the office.

She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again.Just like I said, if you disrupt class, the teacher has you. Blatantly insulting the teacher is a disruption of class. It is that simple.

This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board.Chain of command. If you want to be effective, start with the teacher. Schedule a parent conference. I know your daughter is an angel that will never do no wrong, but I work with teenagers for a living. They are all capable of being lying, devious snots. However, there are great kids out there and your daughter sounds like one of them. Other than going a bit too far, she handled the situation well. Still, I would get the teacher's side of the story before going any further.

And when you meet with the teacher, ask more questions than make statements or demands. Let the teacher do the explaining. If she is a liberal tyrant, she will dig her own grave. If she is a reasonable person, she might appreciate an academic challenge and appreciate that you came to her directly. Go straight to her boss or the school board and you will not be friends and she will only change her behavior if she has to or feels she will get caught.

This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking?Having taught World and US History for about seven years, you nailed it on the head, but maybe not the way you think. History is full of adding or leaving things out to suit your own personal agenda. Having personally read out right lies in college texts and see how stories change, I sometimes wonder if anything we read is really the way it happened. And maybe that is why I enjoy teaching John Locke, the Revolution, and the Constitution. So much of it is theory based that no matter how it really went down, your rights are absolute (as long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others) and that will never change.

Personally I have no problems with teacher propaganda. I am cultivating radical libertarians in the halls of Taft Union High School. I cover the standards, but I tell students exactly what my opinion is. They are free to disagree and I probably wouldn't have thrown your daughter out of class. I probably wouldn't have been in that situation as I would have covered all the amendments, but if your daughter had called me out, I would have reminded her that she has a right to her opinion, but to be careful about insulting me in front of the whole class. If she wants to discuss it further, we can discuss it after class, but we are moving on with the lesson I had prepared today. I rarely, rarely throw students out of class, my skin is much thicker than that.

And speaking of freedom of teachers, you might want to talk to the teacher for the simple fact it might be out of her hands. I doubt it, but a lot of early education is now on the lock step model. They have to be on a certain page and cover certain material on a certain day. They have no academic freedom whatsoever. It is probably unlikely, but what if the entire history department had decided to only cover Amendments 1, 3, and 9?

I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?Talk to the teacher first. You might find a rational and responsive teacher that doesn't mind gentle accountability and you might actually get her to change her teaching method because she wants to change her teaching method. Going straight to nuclear might get results, but it might not last until next year and the reality is, even if my boss gave me hell about something, he isn't in my classroom very often and then I can get back to brainwashing your child (devil's advocate). A secondary aspect is now your daughter has a target on her back. Any other legitimate infraction she commits, will be punished. She might win the battle, but lose the war. There is a lot of school year left.

If the teacher is a flaming libtard that is beyond reason, then schedule a meeting with the principal or the department head with the teacher. If the principal isn't amendable, then go the board. If the board isn't willing to play, then go to the media.

RazzB7
10-01-2011, 9:31 AM
I'm very proud of your daughter and you should be too. I'm equally proud of you (a fellow gun owner) for the parenting skills demonstrated by your daughter's actions.

I sincerely hope that you do pursue this with the school and insure that it never happens again. On behalf of all of us, please stand up for our 2nd Amendment rights and 1st Amendment rights! I don't know where you're located, but if you're in the San Diego area, I would be happy to join you in this.

I suppose by the teacher's deductive reasoning, the 13th and 15th amendments are "relics leftover from the civil war"??

This type of anti-gun brainwashing cannot be allowed to exist in our public school system.

guntrust
10-01-2011, 9:41 AM
Ordnance1, congrats on raising a fine daughter!

Here is a pic of what my daughter's "current" (published in 2007, year before Heller) textbook says about 2A (nothing about self-defense or right to bear):
(pic removed, not readable anyway)
Pic unclear, but i recall under 2A it says: "Because people have the right to protect their country, they may own weapons."

BTW, at my Knights of Columbus 4th ("Patriotic") Degree ceremony (also pre-Heller) they read off the entire bill of rights EXCEPT for the Second Amendment--despite multiple requests, i never received a satisfactory explanation for the omission or confirmation whether it is now included (nor have i attended any other such ceremonies).

HowardW56
10-01-2011, 9:41 AM
Note the teacher is not covering them all. She is not just skipping the 2nd.

That is your daughter's opinion. Really the teacher's duty is to cover CA Content Standard 8.2.6 Personally, I like to tell students exactly what I think of the Amendments. I emphasize that the 2nd Amendment is critical to overall rights. I also de-emphasize the current importance of the 3rd Amendment since it really isn't an issue anymore. However, I do state it is a right. Are you going to tar and feather me for it?

As she should be. She forgot her place and insulted a teacher in front of her class. What? "Forgot her place"? Yeah, I said it.

I teach my students that life is a game. Learn how to play it. A teacher can kick you out of class for disrupting it. Is insulting the teacher in front of the rest of the class and telling her she doesn't know what she is doing a disruption? Without a doubt.

Had your daughter stuck to her initial line of reasoning that all of the Bill of Rights are important and they are most certainly relevant natural rights still belonging to the people of this very classroom and that she was disappointed that Mrs. Liberal wasn't teaching them all, she would have been fine.

The classroom isn't Calguns.net. Calling the teacher arrogant and irresponsible was out of line and she was booted for it. Now, what if your daughter had simply stated she disagreed with her teaching method and allowed the teacher to go on then told her that after class one on one? No disruption to class and no trip to the office.

Just like I said, if you disrupt class, the teacher has you. Blatantly insulting the teacher is a disruption of class. It is that simple.

Chain of command. If you want to be effective, start with the teacher. Schedule a parent conference. I know your daughter is an angel that will never do no wrong, but I work with teenagers for a living. They are all capable of being lying, devious snots. However, there are great kids out there and your daughter sounds like one of them. Other than going a bit too far, she handled the situation well. Still, I would get the teacher's side of the story before going any further.

And when you meet with the teacher, ask more questions than make statements or demands. Let the teacher do the explaining. If she is a liberal tyrant, she will dig her own grave. If she is a reasonable person, she might appreciate an academic challenge and appreciate that you came to her directly. Go straight to her boss or the school board and you will not be friends and she will only change her behavior if she has to or feels she will get caught.

Having taught World and US History for about seven years, you nailed it on the head, but maybe not the way you think. History is full of adding or leaving things out to suit your own personal agenda. Having personally read out right lies in college texts and see how stories change, I sometimes wonder if anything we read is really the way it happened. And maybe that is why I enjoy teaching John Locke, the Revolution, and the Constitution. So much of it is theory based that no matter how it really went down, your rights are absolute (as long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others) and that will never change.

Personally I have no problems with teacher propaganda. I am cultivating radical libertarians in the halls of Taft Union High School. I cover the standards, but I tell students exactly what my opinion is. They are free to disagree and I probably wouldn't have thrown your daughter out of class. I probably wouldn't have been in that situation as I would have covered all the amendments, but if your daughter had called me out, I would have reminded her that she has a right to her opinion, but to be careful about insulting me in front of the whole class. If she wants to discuss it further, we can discuss it after class, but we are moving on with the lesson I had prepared today. I rarely, rarely throw students out of class, my skin is much thicker than that.

And speaking of freedom of teachers, you might want to talk to the teacher for the simple fact it might be out of her hands. I doubt it, but a lot of early education is now on the lock step model. They have to be on a certain page and cover certain material on a certain day. They have no academic freedom whatsoever. It is probably unlikely, but what if the entire history department had decided to only cover Amendments 1, 3, and 9?

Talk to the teacher first. You might find a rational and responsive teacher that doesn't mind gentle accountability and you might actually get her to change her teaching method because she wants to change her teaching method. Going straight to nuclear might get results, but it might not last until next year and the reality is, even if my boss gave me hell about something, he isn't in my classroom very often and then I can get back to brainwashing your child (devil's advocate). A secondary aspect is now your daughter has a target on her back. Any other legitimate infraction she commits, will be punished. She might win the battle, but lose the war. There is a lot of school year left.

If the teacher is a flaming libtard that is beyond reason, then schedule a meeting with the principal or the department head with the teacher. If the principal isn't amendable, then go the board. If the board isn't willing to play, then go to the media.

:clap:

RazzB7
10-01-2011, 9:49 AM
Long post removed for simplicity

I was going to say this via PM, but I see that you have disabled PM. When I first read this I was aghast. My first thought was "This guy is probably teaching at my old high school. (I'm from Taft) How dare he defend this woman's actions! But after reading what you had to say, you successfully separated the actions from the belief/non-belief in supporting the 2A in schools. I have to say you presented everything very well. I'm sure you're a credit to my Wildcats.

tenpercentfirearms
10-01-2011, 9:51 AM
This type of anti-gun brainwashing cannot be allowed to exist in our public school system.

You guys crack me up. It can and will continue. You do understand where you guys live right? You live in California. Do you know what AB 809, SB 427, SB 819, and AB 144 are? Clearly the majority of the state disagrees with you about the 2nd Amendment and they are not going to start giving your children a fair shake.

And if it isn't anti-gun brainwashing it will be anti or pro gay brain washing, pro-tax brain washing, pro or anti abortion brainwashing, religious or atheist brainwashing, and on and on.

The OPs daughter is on the right track. She has to be the one to question the teacher in the classroom. However, she needs to be effective at it. She is only 14! She can't be perfect. This should be a learning lesson. Question the teacher, but don't make it personal. The OP said she was quite upset. You can't get upset, you have to remain calm.

I teach my students to always question authority. It is the basis of the scientific revolution and Enlightenment. Don't just believe what your teacher tells you, question it and prove it.

Keep dreaming that teachers will just issue facts and not interpret the events of history to their students. The textbooks and everything else you read are already slanted one way or another. The simple facts aren't as interesting or they don't agree with one agenda or the other.

Sure in math there is no need for your anti-rights bias. In history, there is much up for interpretation. So how well prepared are your children for divergent opinions? Clearly the OPs daughter was prepared. Good for her. She stood up for what she thought was right and did a fairly good job of it.

It is your duty to raise your children the same way. Someday they are going to leave this fairy tale land you all want middle and high school to be where they are just taught facts and where no teenager dare wonder about a divergent opinion. And when they get to college, make no mistake their college professors will destroy them.

The battlefield starts as soon as your child leaves the home and steps on the school bus. Prepare your children to fight liberals everywhere. However, you can't legislate away or coerce them into submission no easier than they can do the same to you. Teach your children to counter them with what we all expect. Facts, logic, and reasoning.

jeep7081
10-01-2011, 9:53 AM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

Until parents show up at the office. Nothing will change. Posting on a forum does nothing, but allow you to vent. Sorry, its true.

Daughter was in high school many moons ago. She was talking to her now husband. He was on the wrestling team. Teacher heard my daughter talking to him and said he wouldn't mind wresting with my daughter as well :eek: She called me on her cell. I asked what class room he was in. She told me. The bell rang and she sat down. Teacher heard her tell me what happen and asked what I would do about it? She explained I would probably take him out of class by force and beat his *** in front of the students. Then go home and cook lunch. Teacher asked her how big I was? She explained I was 6'3/250lbs. He told my daughter to tell me he was sorry. On my way down there, I called the principal (her husband was the DA at the time), and explained what was going to happen. She knew who I was. She said there was no reason to show up, teacher would be removed and fired. He was. He lost his job. I would love to be a fly on the wall when he told his wife why he lost his job.

I have a personal issue with school thinking they are above the law, and treach students and parents as such.

My $02? Go down there and raise hell.

tenpercentfirearms
10-01-2011, 9:58 AM
I was going to say this via PM, but I see that you have disabled PM. When I first read this I was aghast. My first thought was "This guy is probably teaching at my old high school. (I'm from Taft) How dare he defend this woman's actions! But after reading what you had to say, you successfully separated the actions from the belief/non-belief in supporting the 2A in schools. I have to say you presented everything very well. I'm sure you're a credit to my Wildcats.
What year did you graduate? I am Class of 95.

Thank you for noting I am not defending all of the teacher's actions or really any of them. Personally, I would not have kicked the OPs daughter out of my class. To do so would admit she won and I lost! I am much more proud than that.

voiceofreason
10-01-2011, 9:58 AM
If I may make an analogy .....

Before you bring a newborn home from the hospital, you "baby proof" your house; cover electrical plugs, those annoying locks on the cabinets, etc.

Before you send your child into a public school, you liberal proof them. It sounds to me as if the OP has done an outstanding job of that.

Yes. I agree with davbog44.

You can't change the world, but you can change how your children see the world... with a critical eye to what message is being sent, what they're attempting to get from you, and a subjective judgement as to the accuracy of what the world shows you based on prior knowledge, research, and context.

RazzB7
10-01-2011, 9:59 AM
What year did you graduate? I am Class of 95.

Thank you for noting I am not defending all of the teacher's actions or really any of them. Personally, I would not have kicked the OPs daughter out of my class. To do so would admit she won and I lost! I am much more proud than that.

I graduated in 1982. Just a bit older than you. LOL.

tenpercentfirearms
10-01-2011, 10:03 AM
Until parents show up at the office. Nothing will change. Posting on a forum does nothing, but allow you to vent. Sorry, its true.

Daughter was in high school many moons ago. She was talking to her now husband. He was on the wrestling team. Teacher heard my daughter talking to him and said he wouldn't mind wresting with my daughter as well :eek: She called me on her cell. I asked what class room he was in. She told me. The bell rang and she sat down. Teacher heard her tell me what happen and asked what I would do about it? She explained I would probably take him out of class by force and beat his *** in front of the students. Then go home and cook lunch. Teacher asked her how big I was? She explained I was 6'3/250lbs. He told my daughter to tell me he was sorry. On my way down there, I called the principal (her husband was the DA at the time), and explained what was going to happen. She knew who I was. She said there was no reason to show up, teacher would be removed and fired. He was. He lost his job. I would love to be a fly on the wall when he told his wife why he lost his job.

I have a personal issue with school thinking they are above the law, and treach students and parents as such.

My $02? Go down there and raise hell.

Cool story bro. Apples to oranges and to a certain extent your daughter clearly can't handle things without daddy's help. I am not saying the guy wasn't out of line, but going down there to beat the dude up? Really? Sure the guy gets fired for a very vague innuendo, if he gets fired, but you go to jail for assault and battery. Great idea.

Is that what the OP should do? Threaten to go down there and raise hell? Without even getting the other side of the story? You are one of those types of parents I see.

Of course that is all hypothetical as I doubt a story where a father threatens to come down there and they immediately remove a teacher from the classroom and fire him without some kind of larger investigation and due process. Of course that doesn't sound as cool as being big and bad and threatening people in order to get your way.

Hopefully the OP will see that a carefully measured and reasoned response will be more effective.

jeep7081
10-01-2011, 10:03 AM
I graduated in 1982. Just a bit older than you. LOL.

Were the "old guys". :D

jeep7081
10-01-2011, 10:05 AM
Cool story bro. Apples to oranges and to a certain extent your daughter clearly can't handle things without daddy's help. I am not saying the guy wasn't out of line, but going down there to beat the dude up? Really?

Is that what the OP should do? Threaten to go down there and raise hell? Without even getting the other side of the story? You are one of those types of parents I see.

And your one of those teachers. :rolleyes: Thus, your loyalty lies.

I have talked to you on the phone in the past at your shop when your not teaching. So, I am not going to get into it with you as you seemed like a nice guy at that time. Well, agree to disagree.

Ubermcoupe
10-01-2011, 10:10 AM
My .02 goes towards having a conversation with the teacher. Try not to bring emotion (not assuming you would, but I know I would) into it and just say "hey I don't appreciate _______"

tenpercentfirearms
10-01-2011, 10:17 AM
And your one of those teachers. :rolleyes: Thus, your loyalty lies. A teacher talking to your daughter that way is unacceptable. He should be fired. However, if teachers aren't above the law, then why is daddy when he wants to go down and beat someone's head in? Honestly what would have happened if the guy denied it and you went in and beat him up and he pressed charges?

This is what I am talking about. Know how to play the game. However, this isn't saying your method didn't work, but it is awfully dangerous.

I have talked to you on the phone in the past at your shop when your not teaching. So, I am not going to get into it with you as you seemed like a nice guy at that time. Well, agree to disagree.One of the smartest things I have ever heard on Calguns. I appreciate that and agree.

jeep7081
10-01-2011, 10:21 AM
A teacher talking to your daughter that way is unacceptable. He should be fired. However, if teachers aren't above the law, then why is daddy when he wants to go down and beat someone's head in?

One of the smartest things I have ever heard on Calguns. I appreciate that.

You left it with a question mark for a reply. I wont. But, will say this. You know the answer to the question. If not, PM me.

My second comment stands. Well agree to disagree. :D

Fate
10-01-2011, 10:25 AM
Congrats to your daughter for standing up and challenging an authority figure who was out of line. My own daughter (now 13) has done similar things WRT publicly questioning school officials' search procedures.

The thing is, it's not your fight. Nor should it be. As parents, we teach and train and then send our kids off into the world. They need to learn to fight their own battles, but properly equipped.

It's not that the war shouldn't be fought, but that she will encounter many of these battles in the future. Going all out against the one teacher/school won't change things, especially in CA. However, each time false information or bias is countered in public, the eyes of her peers have an opportunity to be opened. Only by winning the "hearts and minds" of the next generation do we have any hope to hold on to our rights.

That she has been taught how to stand up, present a logical, legally-based and factual dissent will serve our nation and her well in the future.

parcours
10-01-2011, 10:26 AM
Go to a school board meeting and ask the school board if they gave the teacher the authority to teach the students that it's OK to ignore certain parts of the constitution as long as you don't agree with them. Then, go ahead and ask them if any of them even knows what the constitution says and why there have been ammendments. Finally, ask them "If the 2A no longer applies, why hasn't it been removed?"

This is a great start! Then a complaint with the BOD and get the teacher to apologize and reteach the BOR to the class!

And tell your daughter GREAT JOB!!!!

battleship
10-01-2011, 10:35 AM
Your daughter should be applauded, for actually having the guts at 14 to address the teacher in this way, its so sad that the teacher sent her packing claiming she was being disruptive to the rest of the class and the subject.
Clearly the teacher didn't like what she had to say and made it a personnel issue. What kind of a message is a person sending to a child when that child is not allowed to question or inform on a subject, especially one like this.
That is not good teaching, in fact its dictating no wonder so many people home school there kids, this is an example as to why they do it.
What the teacher has done is to try and confuse a 14 year old and possibly the rest of the class into thinking they are not allowed to debate subject matter unless it slides into the teachers own mind set.
Again that's not teaching.
Bravo to your daughter and thanks for sharing.

jeep7081
10-01-2011, 10:37 AM
Your daughter should be applauded, for actually having the guts at 14 to address the teacher in this way, its so sad that the teacher sent her packing claiming she was being disruptive to the rest of the class and the subject.
Clearly the teacher didn't like what she had to say and made it a personnel issue. What kind of a message is a person sending to a child when that child is not allowed to question or inform on a subject, especially one like this.
That is not good teaching, in fact its dictating no wonder so many people home school there kids, this is an example as to why they do it.
What the teacher has done is to try and confuse a 14 year old and possibly the rest of the class into thinking they are not allowed to debate subject matter unless it slides into the teachers own mind set.
Again that's not teaching.
Bravo to your daughter and thanks for sharing.

Agree. Keyword "child". A child shouldn't have to stand up and correct an adult with a professional job to teach. The teacher could have handled it better. Sounds like our teachers at grade schools are failing us, and the professors at a college level as well.

rideanddive
10-01-2011, 11:45 AM
Have her wear a T-shirt to school with the second amendment printed on the front of it. Let the teacher kick her out of class. THEN go to Fox News!

billybob_jcv
10-01-2011, 11:49 AM
That teacher really missed a golden opportunity. He/She could have seized the opportunity to split the class into three teams, have them research the issues and hold a mock supreme court hearing. Team #1: RKBA, Team #2: Repeal 2A, Team #3: US Supreme Court Justices.

I really, really hate the single-minded focus of our schools on the State testing requirements. True learning has been replaced with mindless regurgitation of approved materials.

Cool Gun Wife
10-01-2011, 12:03 PM
I am a Patron Life member of the NRA, NRA Certified instructor, leader of a local NRA Member's Council, and a highly qualified public school teacher in California. I teach 8th grade GATE history at one of the top 10 Middle Schools in the state. I think I am qualified to comment on this.

Your daughter uncovered the teacher's ignorance, and was right to comment in class on her view of the Constitution. Believing that 2A is a relic of the past and irrelevant shows that the teacher has no understanding of current significant issues and how the Constitution still addresses everyday life. This teacher cannot be teaching students to be thinkers.


And, on first read, it looks like the teacher was feeling insecure and challenged, so she sent your daughter to a higher authority. My guess is the principal tried to down play the situation by talking to your daughter about her behavior rather than the subject. You should request a meeting with the teacher and the principal to clarify the situation. Make your request via email as then you have documentation of your view, and any replies can be saved and added to your documentation. Then, at the meeting, take notes and make them clarify anything you do not understand. In my experience, administrators do not like unhappy parents and fear the escalation to the school board, and they tend to do all they can to pacify and survive.

If you do meet with the school and then feel as though your daughter is being discriminated against, then you need to take your case to the school board. They need to know that a teacher is choosing bias and indoctrination over teaching.

Pat Riot
10-01-2011, 12:22 PM
I really feel that something needs to be done about this.

First off I want to assuage your frustration by letting you know that "something is being done." And YOU are doing it. You are raising your child to understand liberty, and the responsibility of a citizen in a republic to defend every inch of it.

Second. This same exact thing happened to me (a few times) when I was in HS. I want to thank your daughter for her actions. She has restored some of my faith in the generation that is following mine. She probably wont win any cool points from her fellow students, but she will have the satisfaction knowing she did something right. This quote comes to mind:

"A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more about than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

-- John Stuart Mill

Time is really the only thing that is holding you back from making a complaint. If you have the time, do it. At a minimum you can make the school board, principal, and the teacher very uncomfortable and take up a lot of their free time with your complaint. If nothing else this will make them think again about lying to their students.

Liberty1
10-01-2011, 12:28 PM
Get her out of government school. IMO

KWB977
10-01-2011, 12:32 PM
I'm tired of teachers from K-college teaching with their own personal agendas........

In College it was really bad, especially in political studies, or history classes, especially if you get a activist type teacher. Teach as it in an unbiased manner, keep your opinions to yourself.

Props to you and your child for standing up!

ontmark
10-01-2011, 12:49 PM
First off
Congratulate your daughter for doing the right thing.
Do something special for her. Perhaps Mom and you take her out to dinner.
At this age they are very easily heart broken or proud of their actions.
(Congratulate the parents for raising their daughter up correctly)

My Daughter was often asked what the Second Amendment Foundation Patch, that I sewed on one of her knees on her bluejeans, was about. It was there because she wanted it on and not to cover a hole during her High School Years.

Back to the issue.
Write a letter to the School Superintendent. CC The Principle, Teacher, local Newspaper Editor, all members of the School Board, and California State Board of Education. Send it to the School Superintendent Registered with proof of delivery. Requesting a meeting with the Teacher, Principal and outside Arbitrator to be present, to discuss a wrongful disciplinary action imposed on your child. All of this to be handled in a timely fashion. Give the School Department some time to respond.

Then approach the School Board at a meeting requesting to address them verbally. Write your comments down so you may read them with out forgetting any details. A lot of these meetings are shown on the local town Cable TV Chanel. Show the letter you sent to the Superintendent if you have still gotten no response from the School District Office.

I went these routes in a situation of wrongfully disciplinary actions done or our older daughter. I did not get the meeting until I stood up in front of the School Board Meeting. After my speech. I was met by the Parent Complaint Administrator before I could return to me seat and was escorted into a private room. Quickly following this meeting I had my conference with the Teacher, Principle, and Arbitrator regarding this matter with my daughter also present. I was later given a letter that was signed by the School Administrator the said this event was handled wrongly and there was to be no record of this disciplinary event in child’s school records.

Where do you live?
I will help protest in front of the School if needed and you live close by?

BannedinBritain
10-01-2011, 12:54 PM
What would one expect from the public re-education system. This makes my blood boil, and I know I would be demanding a sit-down with the teacher, the principal, and board members. I think it would be better if your daughter gave the lesson on the 2nd Amendment. :43:

oaklander
10-01-2011, 12:54 PM
Wow, 3 pages huh?

I read the op and a few following.

Long story short, unless you've got a ton of time, money and the backing of other parents, you're not going to change the teacher or the school district. Sad, but that's the way of things in today's world.

My humble advice is to give the teacher a brief summary of the Heller/McDonald cases (two printed pages should suffice) and don't fret over whether she reads it or it goes to file #13. Then take your daughter out for a huge ice cream sundae and buy her that bike she's been wanting. Teach her that sometimes you can change things, sometimes you can't, but it's admirable to stand up for principle anyway, and you're very proud of her.

I disagree that nothing can be done. There is a legal and ethical way to essentially sink that teacher's entire career by triangulating local and national press, and finding a couple of friendly politicians. I do not have the bandwidth to do it. I would like to see someone start with letters to the teacher, the school, the school administration, concerned parents, local politicians, and the press (especially the 2A bloggers).

If that teacher was in error, then that teacher can admit that teacher's mistake, and stay employed.

If that teacher wishes to use a paid government position for further an ILLEGAL AGENDA that is contrary to our own constitutional rights, then that teacher should no longer get any tax money (i.e., get a new job at a private school).

AGAIN, PLEASE DO NOT EVER THINK THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE POWER THAT YOU HAVE.

One dedicated person, working with a team of other good, moral, honest and correct people - CAN legally and politically clean up this type of institutional evil. We need more people in this fight, and we do not need people saying that it can't be done. I have been doing this stuff for years, and it IS doable.


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

ldsnet
10-01-2011, 12:56 PM
I guess this teacher needs to have her 4th, and 8th amendment rights violated to understand they ALL have purpose. She decided not to teach about those either.

Tough lesson for students to learn:
You can't belive everything you see and hear
Every "expert" has an Opinion
You will never get ALL the facts from a single source.

Good for your daughter to stand up to tyrany and FUD when it rears its ugly head.

Fyathyrio
10-01-2011, 1:18 PM
Your daughter is awesome! Please thank her for me for having the courage to speak up in class, and pat yourself on the back for raising her well.

One potential pitfall is the school could possibly use outside resources to make your life miserable. This thread highlights some possible repercussions they may attempt. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=297283) The child just mentioned that daddy had a gun, the school called the cops, cops wanted to check it.

tenpercentfirearms
10-01-2011, 1:20 PM
Back to the issue.
Write a letter to the School Superintendent. CC The Principle, Teacher, local Newspaper Editor, all members of the School Board, and California State Board of Education. Send it to the School Superintendent Registered with proof of delivery. Requesting a meeting with the Teacher, Principal and outside Arbitrator to be present, to discuss a wrongful disciplinary action imposed on your child. All of this to be handled in a timely fashion. Give the School Department some time to respond. LOL. You guys crack me up.

Try just meeting with the teacher. It will probably be much easier and more effective.

Then approach the School Board at a meeting requesting to address them verbally. Write your comments down so you may read them with out forgetting any details. A lot of these meetings are shown on the local town Cable TV Chanel. Show the letter you sent to the Superintendent if you have still gotten no response from the School District Office. Or meet with the teacher first so you don't have to go to the school board meeting. :rolleyes:

Where do you live?
I will help protest in front of the School if needed and you live close by?Again, cracking me up.

No wonder this state is so screwed up. No one seems to know how to handle situations in an even remotely efficient or effective fashion.

cmichini
10-01-2011, 1:21 PM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

Principal, school board, media, NRA-ILA, attorney, not necessarily in that order.

Maybe you can secure complete funding for your kid via the courts and get a teacher, administrator, and school board off the payroll/pension-roll.

Sounds like the first and second amendments are under attack in this school district.

Let's hope we hear about this on the news TONIGHT.

billybob_jcv
10-01-2011, 1:23 PM
BTW, you might also want to read-up on the key cases associated with the First Amendment in schools: http://www.firstamendmentschools.org/freedoms/faq.aspx?id=12991

tenpercentfirearms
10-01-2011, 1:32 PM
Sounds like the first and second amendments are under attack in this school district.

No actually they are not. No one banned free speech. Disruptive speech is not free speech. Schools have a wide array of what they can limit for the general order of the institution.

Further the state already limits her 2nd Amendment rights at school. She can't bring guns to school, but she is still most certainly free to exercise them outside of school.

Again, the majority opinions on this board are not really helpful. Everyone wants to go nuclear and get into this big war. Keep it simple. Just go meet with the teacher and hear her side of the story and then address any concerns you have there. If she refuses to meet, then request the meeting through the principal.

This doesn't have to be a huge 2nd Amendment showdown that it won't ever be.

jeep7081
10-01-2011, 2:00 PM
I think people on here want "action" regardless how some see fit. Its because most of us have had enough.

Having a meeting with the teacher, will probably result in "I feel this way, you were feel that way" and the door closes. Then the parent leaves thinking "that didn't resolve a damn thing". Most of us have been around the block a few times and know this first hand. The younger crowd is still learning.

If I was in Vegas, I can bet if the OP gets those who said they would go there with signs, or a complaint to the board members he would get the response he wants vs a meeting with the teacher.

Remember, most are on this board because of 2A "action" we want regarding....(fill in the blank)

vincewarde
10-01-2011, 2:22 PM
When I was in high school there was an ACLU poster on the wall that was completely missing the second amendment. The teacher said it was not part of the bill of rights. :confused:

Yep, but now even the ACLU gets it. Some local chapters are even taking gun rights cases.

Schools like this one make me glad my grand-kids are home schooled.

therealsundance
10-01-2011, 2:43 PM
tenpercentfirearms is correct, the teacher should've been a bit more rico-suave than to let a kid win that easily. And you, OP, need to meet with the teacher first.

For a teacher, the law is clear, per ED Code S48900, the OP's daughter was in the wrong if she:
(k)Disrupted school activities or otherwise willfully defied the valid authority of supervisors, teachers, administrators, school officials, or other school personnel engaged in the performance of their duties.

Which is why: Know how to play the game.

Meet with the teacher.

You need to find out what the objective/purpose of the day's lesson was? "How was the lesson connected to the CA content standards?" is a great first question to ask the teacher when you meet with her. Did your daughter know? IOW, is there an agenda posted in the room for the day's activities/topics? Had the teacher said they were going to cover all of the BoR throughout the week/unit? Or were those three Amendments the most relevant to the day's topic? While your daughter is firmly aware of her 2A rights, was the 2A necessary for the day's lesson?

If the teacher cannot defend her choice of those particular Amendments for the day's lesson then you have a complaint to lodge with the principal, board, etc. But don't forget about your daughter's behavior in class. That needs to be addressed, too, in a meeting with the teacher.

non sequitur
10-01-2011, 3:06 PM
Fox News picked up this story out of Vacaville, CA. Clearly, these students were being disruptive with their "Bless You" antics and the teacher responded.

Nevertheless, this brushfire story went viral overnight and now the national media is running the story.

Call Fox News and have them run a story on your daughter's school teacher and I'm sure Fox News will have no problem putting that "2nd Amendment not really a right" liberal brainwashing out there for a national audience.

Good luck!

Gryff
10-01-2011, 3:13 PM
Send a letter to the school principal, requiring that teacher to detail in writing all parts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights which are no longer rights for modern Americans.

Be sure to CC: the school board president, the editor of your local paper, the NRA, your Congressional representatives, and the heads of your county's Republican and Democratic parties.

This teacher deserves a **** storm of condemnation to come down on her ignorant liberal head. And it is important that as many other teachers as possible see it happen.

If you live in this country without diplomatic immunity, you don't get to pick and choose which parts of the Constitution that you support.

Tarn_Helm
10-01-2011, 4:16 PM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

If you are serious, get the teacher to state her position on, and interpretation of, the Second Amendment in writing.

From there, you can begin to build a careful case that the teacher is indoctrinating the students--not teaching them.

Then do your homework and make your case against the indoctrination.

Indoctrinating students is illegal--even in this f^#*ed up state.

That teacher can get in big trouble if found guilty of indoctrinating students.

Find out exactly which standard the teacher was allegedly teaching.

Here is how you phrase your question: "Which one of the California History/Social Science Standards was the teacher allegedly teaching on the day my daughter was removed from class for allegedly disrupting?"

Ask for the specific number of the California History/Social Science Standard allegedly being taught.

Each standard has a specific number.

For example:

"United States History and Geography: Growth and Conflict (http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/histsocscistnd.pdf)

Students in grade eight study the ideas, issues, and events from the framing of the Constitution up to World War I, with an emphasis on America’s role in the war. After reviewing the development of America’s democratic institutions founded on the Judeo-Christian heritage and English parliamentary traditions, particularly the shaping of the Constitution, students trace the development of American politics, society, culture, and economy and relate them to the emergence of major regional differences. They learn about the challenges facing the new nation, with an emphasis on the causes, course, and consequences of the Civil War. They make connections between the rise of industrialization and contemporary social and economic conditions.

8.1 Students understand the major events preceding the founding of the nation and relate their significance to the development of American constitutional democracy.

1. Describe the relationship between the moral and political ideas of the Great Awakening and the development of revolutionary fervor.
2. Analyze the philosophy of government expressed in the Declaration of Independence, with an emphasis on government as a means of securing individual rights (e.g., key phrases such as “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”).
3. Analyze how the American Revolution affected other nations, especially France.
4. Describe the nation’s blend of civic republicanism, classical liberal principles, and English parliamentary traditions.

8.2 Students analyze the political principles underlying the U.S. Constitution and compare the enumerated and implied powers of the federal government.
1. Discuss the significance of the Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, and the Mayflower Compact.
2. Analyze the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution and the success of each in implementing the ideals of the Declaration of Independence.
3. Evaluate the major debates that occurred during the development of the Constitution and their ultimate resolutions in such areas as shared power among institutions, divided state-federal power, slavery, the rights of individuals and states (later addressed by the addition of the Bill of Rights), and the status of American Indian nations under the commerce clause.
4. Describe the political philosophy underpinning the Constitution as specified in the Federalist Papers (authored by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay) and the role of such leaders as Madison, George Washington, Roger Sherman, Gouverneur Morris, and James Wilson in the writing and ratification of the Constitution.
5. Understand the significance of Jefferson’s Statute for Religious Freedom as a forerunner of the First Amendment and the origins, purpose, and differing views of the founding fathers on the issue of the separation of church and state.
6. Enumerate the powers of government set forth in the Constitution and the fundamental liberties ensured by the Bill of Rights.
7. Describe the principles of federalism, dual sovereignty, separation of powers, checks and balances, the nature and purpose of majority rule, and the ways in which the American idea of constitutionalism preserves individual rights.

8.3 Students understand the foundation of the American political system and the ways in which citizens participate in it.
1. Analyze the principles and concepts codified in state constitutions between 1777 and 1781 that created the context out of which American political institutions and ideas developed.
2. Explain how the ordinances of 1785 and 1787 privatized national resources and transferred federally owned lands into private holdings, townships, and states.
3. Enumerate the advantages of a common market among the states as foreseen in and protected by the Constitution’s clauses on interstate commerce, common coinage, and full-faith and credit.
4. Understand how the conflicts between Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton resulted in the emergence of two political parties (e.g., view of foreign policy, Alien and Sedition Acts, economic policy, National Bank, funding and assumption of the revolutionary debt).
5. Know the significance of domestic resistance movements and ways in which the central government responded to such movements (e.g., Shays’ Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion).
6. Describe the basic law-making process and how the Constitution provides numerous opportunities for citizens to participate in the political process and to monitor and influence government (e.g., function of elections, political parties, interest groups).
7.Understand the functions and responsibilities of a free press. . . ."

Etc.

ALSO, ask for a copy of the lesson plan itself and specifically ask to have the "objective of the lesson" included in writing with the lesson plan somewhere.

So, you need three things in writing:
1] Lesson plan itself
2] Number of standard being addressed by the lesson
3] The "objective of the lesson"

The objective of the lesson will sound something like this: "SWBAT ("Students will be able to...") understand and explain the rights provided for in the U.S. Bill of Rights."

This could be very damning if the teacher writes something like "SWBAT ("Students will be able to...") understand and explain the rights provided for in the U.S. Bill of Rights which are fundamental/most important/etc."

Because then this narrows the scope of her message if her lesson excludes rights which she feels are 'wrong'--such as the right to keep and bear arms.

Excluding rights she disagrees with amounts to indoctrination--if especially if you set her up by asking questions requiring subjective answers--such as the following:

"How do you feel about the 2nd Amendment?"

"How do you feel about guns?"

"How do you feel about the right of non-LEOs to own firearms for purposes of lawful self-defense?"

"How do you feel about the right of non-LEOs to carry concealed loaded firearms for purposes of lawful self-defense?"

"How do you feel about the right of ordinary citizens to own 'military grade rifles'?" (Avoid the term "Assault Rifle"--let her bring it up.)

If she rejects these, and if you have in your hands lesson plans showing she denied that the 2nd Amendment is an enumerated right, you can nail her for indoctrination.
Go for it.

You can start here: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/cr/cf/documents/socialcontent.pdf

"Research has documented that the interests, prejudices, and ideas children develop as they mature are influenced directly by everything they see and hear. Much of a child’s early development takes place in school; therefore, instructional materials contribute to a positive or negative school experience. The California Legislature recognized the vital role of instructional materials in the formation of a child’s attitudes and beliefs when it adopted Education Code sections 60040 through 60044, 60048, and 60200 (see the Appendix).

In addition to providing positive school experiences and encouraging students’ aspirations, instructional materials should reflect a pluralistic, multicultural society composed of unique individuals. The Education Code sections referenced in this document are intended to help end stereotyping in instructional materials by showing diverse people in positive roles contributing to society. Instructional materials used by students in California public schools should never portray in an adverse or inappropriate way the groups referenced in the laws."

Go to the link for the document cited above.

Download it.

Print it all out.

Highlight the parts which you think the teacher is violating.

Bring it and show it when you meet the principal.

Hang in there.

MindBuilder
10-01-2011, 6:05 PM
So the teacher thinks the Second Amendment isn't really a right? Perhaps remind her that it is the people that ultimately determine what is a constitutional right, and the American people like the Second Amendment. They like it so much that people like Barack Obama have to say things like this:

"...I've been very consistent. I teach constitutional law. What I said was that I believe in the Second Amendment as being an individual right and have said that consistently. ... and in fact what I have been saying consistently is what the Supreme Court essentially said today...[June 26, 2008 The day the Heller decision was handed down]..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJFO6COAMCY

Also, the majority of both the House and Senate support individual gun rights, including significant numbers of Democrats.

And all nine Supreme Court justices found the Second Amendment to be an individual right in Heller. Though the four in the dissent may have only supported the individual right if you were enrolled in the militia and with state permission.

BT JUSTICE
10-01-2011, 6:43 PM
Homeschool is sounding better every day...

jeep7081
10-01-2011, 7:43 PM
If you are serious, get the teacher to state her position on, and interpretation of, the Second Amendment in writing.

From there, you can begin to build a careful case that the teacher is indoctrinating the students--not teaching them.

Then do your homework and make your case against the indoctrination.

Indoctrinating students is illegal--even in this f^#*ed up state.

That teacher can get in big trouble if found guilty of indoctrinating students.

Find out exactly which standard the teacher was allegedly teaching.

Here is how you phrase your question: "Which one of the California History/Social Science Standards was the teacher allegedly teaching on the day my daughter was removed from class for allegedly disrupting?"

Ask for the specific number of the California History/Social Science Standard allegedly being taught.

Each standard has a specific number.

For example:

"United States History and Geography: Growth and Conflict (http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/histsocscistnd.pdf)

Students in grade eight study the ideas, issues, and events from the framing of the Constitution up to World War I, with an emphasis on America’s role in the war. After reviewing the development of America’s democratic institutions founded on the Judeo-Christian heritage and English parliamentary traditions, particularly the shaping of the Constitution, students trace the development of American politics, society, culture, and economy and relate them to the emergence of major regional differences. They learn about the challenges facing the new nation, with an emphasis on the causes, course, and consequences of the Civil War. They make connections between the rise of industrialization and contemporary social and economic conditions.

8.1 Students understand the major events preceding the founding of the nation and relate their significance to the development of American constitutional democracy.

1. Describe the relationship between the moral and political ideas of the Great Awakening and the development of revolutionary fervor.
2. Analyze the philosophy of government expressed in the Declaration of Independence, with an emphasis on government as a means of securing individual rights (e.g., key phrases such as “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”).
3. Analyze how the American Revolution affected other nations, especially France.
4. Describe the nation’s blend of civic republicanism, classical liberal principles, and English parliamentary traditions.

8.2 Students analyze the political principles underlying the U.S. Constitution and compare the enumerated and implied powers of the federal government.
1. Discuss the significance of the Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, and the Mayflower Compact.
2. Analyze the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution and the success of each in implementing the ideals of the Declaration of Independence.
3. Evaluate the major debates that occurred during the development of the Constitution and their ultimate resolutions in such areas as shared power among institutions, divided state-federal power, slavery, the rights of individuals and states (later addressed by the addition of the Bill of Rights), and the status of American Indian nations under the commerce clause.
4. Describe the political philosophy underpinning the Constitution as specified in the Federalist Papers (authored by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay) and the role of such leaders as Madison, George Washington, Roger Sherman, Gouverneur Morris, and James Wilson in the writing and ratification of the Constitution.
5. Understand the significance of Jefferson’s Statute for Religious Freedom as a forerunner of the First Amendment and the origins, purpose, and differing views of the founding fathers on the issue of the separation of church and state.
6. Enumerate the powers of government set forth in the Constitution and the fundamental liberties ensured by the Bill of Rights.
7. Describe the principles of federalism, dual sovereignty, separation of powers, checks and balances, the nature and purpose of majority rule, and the ways in which the American idea of constitutionalism preserves individual rights.

8.3 Students understand the foundation of the American political system and the ways in which citizens participate in it.
1. Analyze the principles and concepts codified in state constitutions between 1777 and 1781 that created the context out of which American political institutions and ideas developed.
2. Explain how the ordinances of 1785 and 1787 privatized national resources and transferred federally owned lands into private holdings, townships, and states.
3. Enumerate the advantages of a common market among the states as foreseen in and protected by the Constitution’s clauses on interstate commerce, common coinage, and full-faith and credit.
4. Understand how the conflicts between Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton resulted in the emergence of two political parties (e.g., view of foreign policy, Alien and Sedition Acts, economic policy, National Bank, funding and assumption of the revolutionary debt).
5. Know the significance of domestic resistance movements and ways in which the central government responded to such movements (e.g., Shays’ Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion).
6. Describe the basic law-making process and how the Constitution provides numerous opportunities for citizens to participate in the political process and to monitor and influence government (e.g., function of elections, political parties, interest groups).
7.Understand the functions and responsibilities of a free press. . . ."

Etc.

ALSO, ask for a copy of the lesson plan itself and specifically ask to have the "objective of the lesson" included in writing with the lesson plan somewhere.

So, you need three things in writing:
1] Lesson plan itself
2] Number of standard being addressed by the lesson
3] The "objective of the lesson"

The objective of the lesson will sound something like this: "SWBAT ("Students will be able to...") understand and explain the rights provided for in the U.S. Bill of Rights."

This could be very damning if the teacher writes something like "SWBAT ("Students will be able to...") understand and explain the rights provided for in the U.S. Bill of Rights which are fundamental/most important/etc."

Because then this narrows the scope of her message if her lesson excludes rights which she feels are 'wrong'--such as the right to keep and bear arms.

Excluding rights she disagrees with amounts to indoctrination--if especially if you set her up by asking questions requiring subjective answers--such as the following:

"How do you feel about the 2nd Amendment?"

"How do you feel about guns?"

"How do you feel about the right of non-LEOs to own firearms for purposes of lawful self-defense?"

"How do you feel about the right of non-LEOs to carry concealed loaded firearms for purposes of lawful self-defense?"

"How do you feel about the right of ordinary citizens to own 'military grade rifles'?" (Avoid the term "Assault Rifle"--let her bring it up.)

If she rejects these, and if you have in your hands lesson plans showing she denied that the 2nd Amendment is an enumerated right, you can nail her for indoctrination.
Go for it.

You can start here: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/cr/cf/documents/socialcontent.pdf

"Research has documented that the interests, prejudices, and ideas children develop as they mature are influenced directly by everything they see and hear. Much of a child’s early development takes place in school; therefore, instructional materials contribute to a positive or negative school experience. The California Legislature recognized the vital role of instructional materials in the formation of a child’s attitudes and beliefs when it adopted Education Code sections 60040 through 60044, 60048, and 60200 (see the Appendix).

In addition to providing positive school experiences and encouraging students’ aspirations, instructional materials should reflect a pluralistic, multicultural society composed of unique individuals. The Education Code sections referenced in this document are intended to help end stereotyping in instructional materials by showing diverse people in positive roles contributing to society. Instructional materials used by students in California public schools should never portray in an adverse or inappropriate way the groups referenced in the laws."

Go to the link for the document cited above.

Download it.

Print it all out.

Highlight the parts which you think the teacher is violating.

Bring it and show it when you meet the principal.

Hang in there.

Very well said. Great input.

-hanko
10-01-2011, 8:11 PM
I'm a little amazed that you're asking IF you should file a complaint...were it I, I'd let the excrement hit the fan to the max.

I was very lucky to have educated my boys in Texas schools :)

-hanko

IWc
10-01-2011, 9:31 PM
So the teacher thinks the Second Amendment isn't really a right? Perhaps remind her that it is the people that ultimately determine what is a constitutional right, and the American people like the Second Amendment. They like it so much that people like Barack Obama have to say things like this:

Also, the majority of both the House and Senate support individual gun rights, including significant numbers of Democrats.

And all nine Supreme Court justices found the Second Amendment to be an individual right in Heller. Though the four in the dissent may have only supported the individual right if you were enrolled in the militia and with state permission.

Please cite the justices voted at that time.

Next time, please be more careful not to rewrite the history.

IWc
10-01-2011, 9:46 PM
Very well said. Great input.

I'm second for this too, however I thought that 8.2.1, about the Mayflower Compact had been replacement the Viking (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/rev-early.htm) and I noticed from eastern side States' have replacement the school text book to correction the history is starting from the Viking.

IWc
10-01-2011, 9:56 PM
I'm sure NRA can dealing with the schooling problem on 2A plus Eddie Eagle (http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/)

GaryV
10-01-2011, 9:59 PM
Please cite the justices voted at that time.

Next time, please be more careful not to rewrite the history.

??? Maybe I'm not understanding you properly, but are you trying to say you disagree with Mindbuilder's statement that all nine justices found that the Second Amendment protected an individual right? If that is the case, I direct you to the first paragraph of the joint dissent:

The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right.

They all nine found it to be an individual right. The dissenters just said that you could only exercise it while actively serving in the militia.

huntercf
10-01-2011, 11:04 PM
Your daughter is awesome! Please thank her for me for having the courage to speak up in class, and pat yourself on the back for raising her well.

One potential pitfall is the school could possibly use outside resources to make your life miserable. This thread highlights some possible repercussions they may attempt. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=297283) The child just mentioned that daddy had a gun, the school called the cops, cops wanted to check it.

This would border on illegal for LE, also the school would be in big trouble. As a teacher I am required by law to report child abuse if I have reasonable suspicion; however, if the parents can show that I reported them as retribution I would lose my credential (license). The school would be liable if they called the police that Dad has a gun and the police conducted an illegal search (gun ownership is not illegal). The school can only report that Dad has a gun if it is on school property or being used to abuse the child.

Paul S
10-01-2011, 11:24 PM
Marvelous discussion..lots of good proposals for action...and of course some not so good in just under 150 posts.
But have we ever heard from the OP since the initial post?

capntroy
10-02-2011, 12:39 AM
Kudos to your daughter for resisting the liberal brainwashing!

There is hope for the next generation.

BillCA
10-02-2011, 12:40 AM
First off, I like Battleship's comment ... but altering "child" to adolescent instead, to indicate someone who is a 'young adult'. She certainly showed it in speaking her mind! :cool:

Recommendations:

Daughter writes a polite letter to the teacher. It should be "understanding" that not everyone can keep abreast of everything in today's fast-moving, sound-bite oriented culture. Then it should specifically address the teacher's knowledge shortcoming - that the 2008 Heller decision by SCOTUS changed the legal landscape. For additional points, add in McDonald v. Chicago and instruct the teacher on its significance. Point out that 2A jurisprudence is in its infancy, like free speech was in 1908 and is likely to expand significantly in the future.
Present the letter to the teacher in a parent/teacher conference, with a copy for the principal.
Include a copy of the Heller Decision (I can provide you a PDF copy) and McDonald decisions.
Also include Dr. Joyce Malcom's book To Keep and Bear Arms: The Origins of an Anglo-American Right which was cited in the Heller decision. That'll cost you between $10-$20 at Amazon. If she doesn't want to read it, ask the Principal to donate it to the school library. (Request a donation receipt.)
In the conference, focus not on your daughter's "behavior", but on her questioning of authority and her correctness of argument. Ask both if the purpose of a school is to educate students with the truth or get them to accept whatever instructors tell them. Even if your daughter's attitude indicated hostility or disrespect, that's beside the point. It would be appropriate if the teacher had said something equally offensive, such as "The right to freedom of worship extends only to State sponsored religions."


If the teacher had been teaching the history of the space program and insisted that John Glenn had been the first man in space (instead of Yuri Gagarin), your daughter would likewise have been honor bound to correct the teacher (he was the first American to orbit the planet, Alan Shephard was the first American in space). Such corrections should not and cannot be held against a student who is correct. Nor should a student be chastised for making such a correction when s/he is right.

echo1
10-02-2011, 1:44 AM
Your girl done good! She's 14 so that puts her in what, 9th grade? She should use this experience as the basis to write an essay, as an eloquent and literay way to go straight for the jugular. A short story, novella or thesis for Honors credit. There's always some writing competion with a cash prize, or scholarship ducats. The confrontation with authority, and unfair treatment for stating the truth, has been learned first hand by her. "Oppressed under the thumb of the MAN". PAX

PsychGuy274
10-02-2011, 6:02 AM
*EDIT*

Double post.

PsychGuy274
10-02-2011, 6:03 AM
I've only read through the first page of this thread so I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but how about outing the school, teacher and principle's name? It seems like its time for an email and letter bomb expressing our concerns.

SanPedroShooter
10-02-2011, 7:06 AM
Marvelous discussion..lots of good proposals for action...and of course some not so good in just under 150 posts.
But have we ever heard from the OP since the initial post?

Ha ha, four pages off one post n run... I suppose there are people, unlike me, who dont spend an hour or two (or more) driving a keyboard all weekend, but come on...

Dutch3
10-02-2011, 7:23 AM
I am a Patron Life member of the NRA, NRA Certified instructor, leader of a local NRA Member's Council, and a highly qualified public school teacher in California. I teach 8th grade GATE history at one of the top 10 Middle Schools in the state. I think I am qualified to comment on this.

Your daughter uncovered the teacher's ignorance, and was right to comment in class on her view of the Constitution. Believing that 2A is a relic of the past and irrelevant shows that the teacher has no understanding of current significant issues and how the Constitution still addresses everyday life. This teacher cannot be teaching students to be thinkers.


You are obviously well qualified. I wish our district would hire teachers with the desire to objectively instruct and inform rather than promoting their personal agendas.

We keep getting neo-hippies from Chico State. :(

Target-Ed
10-02-2011, 7:40 AM
I substitute in 5 districts in San Diego County. I occasionally substitute for government classes and do ask students for their interpertation of the 2nd and 14th amendment among other amendments.
Q-1 What does a "well regulated" militia mean? The answer I look for or end up explaining is that a militia was not a formal organization, it was all of the men and boys of a certain age who turned out from a town or village. Well regulated refers to their proficiency with their weapon equal to that of a "regular" in the militaryy....a professional soldier. When Madison wrote this, weapons were muzzle loaders and required constant drill to maintain proficiency in loading and firing at a rate of 4 rounds per minute of aimed fire. THis militia was called out to deal with marauding animals or other threats to the community.
The second amendment has no requirement for a formal state regulated miitary organization.

Ed

geeknow
10-02-2011, 7:52 AM
op, contact the school board. Be polite. Be persistent. If you feel that the board isnt taking you serious, let them know that you will also be contacting the media. Again, being polite and persistent here will take you a lot further than if you allow emotion to take over...too easy to be dismissed, or labled a 'gun freak'. Our message MUST be wrapped in fact and reason. With regard to both the principal and the district, they both like to feel as though they are the 'final authority' on all matters. They are not. You need to simply find leverage, and apply pressure. Constant, grating pressure.

classicist
10-02-2011, 8:41 AM
Unfortunately:

“The constitutional rights of students in public school are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings.” Bethel School Dist. No. 403 v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675, 682 (1986). That includes the First...

Though the statement of the instructor was incorrect per recent Supreme Court precedent, the school will probably argue that it was within her right as an educator to stagnate speech where it constitutes a “material and substantial interference with schoolwork or discipline.” Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 511 (1969).

Not saying that it's right... that's almost certainly going to be the school's position.

bruss01
10-02-2011, 10:16 AM
I disagree that nothing can be done. There is a legal and ethical way to essentially sink that teacher's entire career by triangulating local and national press, and finding a couple of friendly politicians. I do not have the bandwidth to do it. I would like to see someone start with letters to the teacher, the school, the school administration, concerned parents, local politicians, and the press (especially the 2A bloggers).

If that teacher was in error, then that teacher can admit that teacher's mistake, and stay employed.

If that teacher wishes to use a paid government position for further an ILLEGAL AGENDA that is contrary to our own constitutional rights, then that teacher should no longer get any tax money (i.e., get a new job at a private school).

AGAIN, PLEASE DO NOT EVER THINK THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE POWER THAT YOU HAVE.

One dedicated person, working with a team of other good, moral, honest and correct people - CAN legally and politically clean up this type of institutional evil. We need more people in this fight, and we do not need people saying that it can't be done. I have been doing this stuff for years, and it IS doable.


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

Right... in essence you just agreed with my post. You said you would do it - IF YOU HAD THE BANDWIDTH (time, money) and A TEAM of like-minded people to support the effort (other parents). Sure, if you've got those assets and choose for this issue to be what you spend them on, you can ultimately prevail in the end. The average person doesn't have those assetts, plain and simple. The majority of parents in a typical school district in CA would not see this as an issue worth going to bat for. Very few people have the money to spend in lawyers fees, and little time to show up for PTA meetings that happen at 3:30 in the afternoon. But if someone does have those assets, they could fight hard at this and win a few years down the road. And then maybe have the hard work undone the next time the board chairman or principal is replaced by a successor.

As far as "take the kid out of the school system" that has pros and cons. Some kids believe everything a teacher says just because they are an authority figure. Some have a critical mind and question what they are being taught if it doesn't make sense compared to things they already know. If you put a child in an environment where everybody is on the same page about everything, you teach them "herd mentality" (moo) and when they leave that environment for one in which their ideas are not accepted by the majority, they are already ingrained to go along with the majority viewpoint. Some kids do need to live a sheltered life because they are not strong enough to stand up and take an unpopular stance. Some, like the op's child, are stronger and being in an environment of diverse, challenging or oppositional viewpoints only makes them stronger because they learn the reasons behind what they believe (and become articulate in defending them) and they develop the backbone to do what they believe in rather than blindly follow the herd.

I think the key is knowing what kind of child you have (the kind who need to be sheltered) or the kind who will benefit from and grow stronger by being challenged. Sounds to me like the OP's daughter is doing fine where she's at.

gunsmith
10-02-2011, 10:32 AM
It might not really be the teachers fault!

We are on the frontlines of this argument & the Heller/McDonald cases are relatively recent. All the high-school text books say the say thing in California ( afaik ) the text books teach that the 2A is only applicable to the National Guard.

This has bothered me for a long time since dating the mom of a highschooler 10 years ago. The real culprit are the text books-they need to be updated.

The teacher is just a bureaucrat incapable of independent thought, she only knows what the text book says and probably knows more about Lady Gaga then recent SCOTUS decisions

I quoted my self in the hopes that folks will start looking at the real problem here-textbooks need to be updated.

smogcity
10-02-2011, 10:38 AM
I would forward this to Andrew Brietbart's "big" website (of Acorn and the Weiner/sexting expose fame). They are soon launching "Big Education", focusing on these kind of matters in public education.

glbtrottr
10-02-2011, 10:57 AM
So...

....He looks like a real poster. 153 posts, posts in the marketplace...where did he go?

bohoki
10-02-2011, 11:03 AM
http://i.imgur.com/tE9tU.jpg

hk91666
10-02-2011, 11:10 AM
http://i.imgur.com/tE9tU.jpg

What idiot wrote this letter? Hopefully not a math teacher!

jeep7081
10-02-2011, 11:44 AM
http://i.imgur.com/tE9tU.jpg

Please tell me the parent went down there and told that teacher to pound sand and put him in his place?!

I think teachers forget, their just teachers. If more parents would show up and confront these people, this **** wouldn't happen.

NotEnoughGuns
10-02-2011, 11:48 AM
Public schools are a joke. My wife and I home school our kids and suggest it highly for any parents that are able.
If it were me, I'd be at the school raising hell.

Librarian
10-02-2011, 12:32 PM
I've only read through the first page of this thread so I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but how about outing the school, teacher and principle's name? It seems like its time for an email and letter bomb expressing our concerns.

I strongly disagree.

Not because the incident event doesn't deserve a response, but because I don't believe large scale intervention at this level of the educational system would be an effective use of time.

It seems to me that discussion among the parents and the teacher and principal should resolve the two issues at hand: (1) avoid any punitive action against the student; (2) prevent a repeat error by the teacher.

Cali-Shooter
10-02-2011, 12:49 PM
Plenty of teachers and even university professors are morons, who are not actually that well-educated (or have tons of the "wrong" education) and are more opinionated than factual.

Ordnance1
10-02-2011, 2:51 PM
I just want to thank everyone for the helpful advice and support with respect to this situation and I have requested a meeting with the teacher to get her side of the story and to let her know about my displeasure with the whole scenario. Depending where this meeting leads (it may not yield any results for all I know) The next step will be a meeting with the principal. I am going to request a summary of the meeting in writing from the teacher as well as transcribe it myself while my wife and I meet with her in order to document the results should we need to take it to the next step up the ladder. I really don't believe that she had any intention to educate the 2a as was evidenced by her response to my daughter's challenge. We live in Tracy and this is not the first ridiculous incident that I have seen occur at this school. My wife's friend's son was suspended for three days for drawing a swastica on a WWII map he put together for history class to indicate German positions vs. a star indicating American positions. The teacher called him a white supremecist and racist and sent him to the office. The funny thing is that his girlfriend is asian. Anyway, I told my daughter how proud I was of her for standing up for what is right and suggested a bit more diplomacy next time but told here it was an excellent example of not taking everything you are taught at face value. She has always been a strong willed person who listens to both sides of the story and formulates her ideas and beliefs with respect to such. Anyway, my wife and I took her (and my son) to Six Flags yesterday to help all of us unwind and spend some family time together. She is behind my decision to resolve this with the teacher and or school board 100% and wanted to be there during the meeting but I suggested it would be best for just my wife and I to be there at least during the initial meeting(s). I must say I am overwhelmed to see so much support from fellow Calgunners and residents of CA, perhaps there is hope yet for the state if we just don't give up trying. I will keep everyone up to date as things progress with this situation and thanks again for all the support.

voiceofreason
10-02-2011, 3:17 PM
My wife's friend's son was suspended for three days for drawing a swastica on a WWII map he put together for history class to indicate German positions vs. a star indicating American positions. The teacher called him a white supremecist and racist and sent him to the office. The funny thing is that his girlfriend is asian.

A white woman at my wife's work had an asian boyfriend that was known for coming into work and dropping off flowers and visiting. Given that he often brought food for everyone, the managers and co-workers never had a problem with it.

A new asian guy was hired and after 2 weeks filed a formal complaint with management regarding this woman because of a comment she made. She mentioned in passing that he looked like the asian guy from "Heros", a tv show popular at the time. He DID look like the character "Hiro". He was offended, as he is Chinese and the actor is Japanese. He felt that she was racist and believed she couldn't tell asians apart.

Anyhow, management (4 managers: 2 assistant, the general, and the regional) met with him and the woman for a formal meeting.

The regional manager took this incident very seriously. The rest of the managers including the general manager thought this situation was hugely funny.

After he spoke for 25 minutes explaining what happened and what he felt, an assistant manager piped up with, "Dude, have you seen her boyfriend?". He said no. "Y'know, the guy that brings in all the treats and bread sticks."

He replied, "Yeah, I know him!" with a smile.

"Dude, that's her boyfriend."

"Really?"

Then he apologizes to her with the room cracking up with laughter. The regional manager walked out annoyed that his time was wasted, the misunderstanding was cleared up then and there for good.

He really did look like "Hiro".

Tarn_Helm
10-02-2011, 5:02 PM
tenpercentfirearms is correct, the teacher should've been a bit more rico-suave than to let a kid win that easily. And you, OP, need to meet with the teacher first.

For a teacher, the law is clear, per ED Code S48900, the OP's daughter was in the wrong if she:


Which is why:

Meet with the teacher.

You need to find out what the objective/purpose of the day's lesson was? "How was the lesson connected to the CA content standards?" is a great first question to ask the teacher when you meet with her. Did your daughter know? IOW, is there an agenda posted in the room for the day's activities/topics? Had the teacher said they were going to cover all of the BoR throughout the week/unit? Or were those three Amendments the most relevant to the day's topic? While your daughter is firmly aware of her 2A rights, was the 2A necessary for the day's lesson?

If the teacher cannot defend her choice of those particular Amendments for the day's lesson then you have a complaint to lodge with the principal, board, etc. But don't forget about your daughter's behavior in class. That needs to be addressed, too, in a meeting with the teacher.

Yeah, you probably cannot nail the teacher for infringing a kid's "right of free speech" because in the setting of a classroom those rights are heavily circumscribed by the California Education Code.

All the teacher has to say is, "She disrupted class"--even if your kid is right--and the teacher can eject the student.

However, if you re-read my other post, you can nail her for indoctrination.

She excluded part of the Bill of Rights and has expressed antipathy to the 2nd Amendment--or will do so under your skillful cross-examination.

That lends credence to charges of indoctrination.

Good luck.

;)

bohoki
10-02-2011, 5:23 PM
yea imagine if someone said the 13th amendment doesnt apply to individuals

Mark in Eureka
10-02-2011, 5:29 PM
My mother was a teacher, and while the schools ask for parent participation, they really do not want you in the classroom. Volunteer to be in the classroom. Complain to the principal and/or the school board if you are not allowed to audit you child's classroom activities. Be known for going School Board Meetings and speaking up.

jamesob
10-02-2011, 5:54 PM
raise hell with the princible and school board then call fox news.:43:

jumbopanda
10-02-2011, 6:41 PM
Opinions are like *******s...

NoJoke
10-02-2011, 7:38 PM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. ?

Ironically, my daughter - who goes to a Christian private school won first prize in a calligraphy competition - see below.

On another project this year, she was chosen best for a poster about herself. Center of the poster, in no uncertain terms was a picture of her Browning Buck Mark....the gun she love to shoot.

Get your kid into private school and don't look back. Don't try to take on the public indoctrination machine.

http://members.cox.net/ned946/2nd%20art%20sm.jpg

7x57
10-02-2011, 8:52 PM
Get your kid into private school and don't look back. Don't try to take on the public indoctrination machine.


Which was presumably the point of the quote in my .sig, that guns won't help if the state educates your children. Funny how that isn't an issue at all in gun-rights circles...a peril of being a single-issue voter, I guess.

When my eldest was in a small private Christian daycare I was told that he kept making Lego guns, and he wasn't supposed to do that. I told them that I expected him to follow their rules, but not to make any extra ones on my account because I thought gun control meant using both hands. The only thing I heard after that was when he learned to tell them that the thing he was holding and making "kapow" sounds was a spaceship. No rule against spaceships, apparently. :D

7x57

oaklander
10-02-2011, 9:57 PM
No rule against spaceships, apparently. :D

Exactly - and when they think you are a space cadet, they do tend to forget that space cadets also like rights. . .

1BigPea
10-03-2011, 4:33 PM
I'm looking forward to hearing how the meeting with your daughters teacher goes.

Double_tap
10-03-2011, 4:38 PM
Quite frankly the teacher needs to realize her job is to teach a curriculum. her opinions have no place in a classroom full of impressionable young minds and I dont want my children to have to hear her voice said opinions when it comes to the constitution of the united states.
Teach from the book, shut the **** up, drive home and play with your cats while you desperately scour match.com for an equally pathetic person to play house with.

Common
10-03-2011, 4:48 PM
My girlfriend is nearly finished with her credential and one of the things we were talking about was incorporated rights. It is still the view of the credentialing program that the 2nd amendment is not incorporated.

Teachers are required to stick to the state approved curriculum.

POLICESTATE
10-03-2011, 4:51 PM
State should revoke the teacher's teaching license/permit/whatever and tell them to reapply when they get their **** together.

Dutch3
10-03-2011, 5:16 PM
My girlfriend is nearly finished with her credential and one of the things we were talking about was incorporated rights. It is still the view of the credentialing program that the 2nd amendment is not incorporated.

Teachers are required to stick to the state approved curriculum.

Then we need to disincorporate the credentialing program. The 2nd amendment to the Constitution of The United States of America is not something that is subject to a particular "view" or opinion. It is very simple to understand and has been upheld by SCOTUS to be a guranteed individual right. No gray area.

Look at the fictional fantasy the "state approved curriculum" has turned our history into. Or the 7th grade Social Studies text that has a chapter instructing students to "be a Muslim for a week", while they are not permitted to utter the word "God" at school.

These credentialing programs indoctrinate young teachers so they in turn can indoctrinate their students. A damn shame, and likely a crime as well.

Tarn_Helm
10-03-2011, 5:46 PM
My girlfriend is nearly finished with her credential and one of the things we were talking about was incorporated rights. It is still the view of the credentialing program that the 2nd amendment is not incorporated.

Teachers are required to stick to the state approved curriculum.

Your girlfriend's credential program has no say whatsoever over how she teaches the Bill of Rights.

None.

And if the credential program thugs say or even insinuate that they do, then it is lawsuit time.

There is an organization that fights this kind of nonsense and defends teachers who refuse to become statist, socialist, or Marxist sycophants: Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (http://thefire.org/).

Washington State Rejects Political Litmus Test for Education Students: Unconstitutional ‘Dispositions’ Criteria Wither Under Public Scrutiny

http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/6832.html

PULLMAN, Wash., February 28, 2006—Six months ago, Ed Swan feared that his teaching career would end before it started, merely because his ideology differed from that of his professors at Washington State University (WSU). Today, thanks to a campaign of public exposure by the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), WSU has completely repealed the criteria it used to punish Swan.

“WSU has finally done the right thing and abandoned its unconstitutional and unfair ‘dispositions’ requirements,” stated FIRE Interim President Greg Lukianoff. “This is a tremendous victory not just for Ed Swan, but for the freedom of thought and conscience of every WSU education student.”

Last fall, Swan was given poor marks on “dispositions” criteria used by WSU’s College of Education for expressing, after he was asked, his conservative political and religious beliefs. (For example, Swan was penalized for admitting that he opposes gun control and does not believe that white privilege and male privilege exist.) Indeed, before FIRE took the case public, WSU had even threatened Swan with dismissal if he did not sign an unconstitutional contract obliging him to submit to even more ideological litmus tests.

Washington State’s then-current “dispositions” criteria, similar to those used at colleges of education nationwide, required students to have a commitment to vague ideological concepts such as “appreciat and valu[ing] human diversity,” sensitivity to “community and cultural norms,” and respecting “others’ varied talents and perspectives.” WSU made no effort to ensure that these broad requirements were not used to discriminate against students with political perspectives that might conflict with those of their professors. Other education programs require students to have a commitment to “social justice,” another oft-politicized concept.

“Most everyone professes to believe in ‘diversity’ and ‘social justice.’ But the problem is that no two people define the terms the same way,” said Lukianoff. “The danger of ‘dispositions’ is that they mandate subjective and politicized evaluations of students and therefore often result in the enforcement of official viewpoints. It is not an educator’s job to police students’ beliefs.”

After FIRE intervened last fall, exposing WSU to widespread condemnation, the university pledged not to use “dispositions” criteria in an unconstitutional manner. Swan’s path to graduation appeared clear, but no systematic changes were immediately made. The National Association of Scholars also wrote to the U.S. Department of Education about the problem. Then, last week, WSU finally fulfilled its commitment by revamping the dispositions evaluation forms that contained the unconstitutional requirements. The new forms are devoid of language likely to be abused for purposes of ideological discrimination.

“While this new ‘dispositions’ scheme is a true and fundamental improvement over the old one, WSU must be careful not to allow its faculty members to continue to engage in political discrimination in other ways,” noted Lukianoff. “Having the ‘right’ politics must never be a qualification for getting a teaching degree at WSU.”

FIRE has also intervened in a conflict over “dispositions” criteria at Brooklyn College and expects to see more such cases in the future because of the widespread adoption of this evaluation rubric. “Until the abuse of ‘dispositions’ ends, FIRE will be extremely vigilant at America’s schools of education,” Lukianoff concluded.

FIRE is a nonprofit educational foundation that unites civil rights and civil liberties leaders, scholars, journalists, and public intellectuals from across the political and ideological spectrum on behalf of individual rights, due process, freedom of expression, academic freedom, and rights of conscience at our nation’s colleges and universities. FIRE’s efforts to preserve liberty at Washington State University can be viewed at thefire.org/wsu.

yS6IA93o79s
***

Remember folks, there [I]are teachers out there who fight for the rights of their students and who fight for the right to teach the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights.:chris:

huntercf
10-03-2011, 6:34 PM
My girlfriend is nearly finished with her credential and one of the things we were talking about was incorporated rights. It is still the view of the credentialing program that the 2nd amendment is not incorporated.

Teachers are required to stick to the state approved curriculum.

Actually that isn't entirely true. Teachers are required to do certain things by state law: Take accurate attendance, ensure student safety, report suspected and/or known child abuse. There are 6 areas that teachers are judged in their evaluations. As far as curriculum goes, that is up to the district, school and teacher. When I went through my credential program I never heard anything about 2A, if I had heard any negative/incorrect information I would have opened my big mouth; which did happen a few times because I have a problem with idiots in power positions. Teachers are entitled to their opinions BUT they should be telling the students that they are ONLY opinions and they need to make up their own mind.

five.five-six
10-03-2011, 7:41 PM
**** her up!

no kidding, CS gas is in order

highpowermatch
10-03-2011, 8:20 PM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

Your daughter is awesome!!!

stylett9
10-03-2011, 8:29 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html

I would love to wake up one morning with this has a headline.

stylett9
10-03-2011, 8:31 PM
I think a polite, well worded letter to the principal outlining that the entire bill of rights is applicable in this country and how you while you respect the teacher's right to not care for guns, that you find it offensive that the teacher is attempting to indroctronate the students with her political views.

Teach the facts, not opinion!

This comment wins. +1

NoJoke
10-04-2011, 6:22 AM
My girlfriend is nearly finished with her credential and one of the things we were talking about was incorporated rights. It is still the view of the credentialing program that the 2nd amendment is not incorporated.

Teachers are required to stick to the state approved curriculum.

Union?

tenpercentfirearms
10-04-2011, 6:52 AM
My girlfriend is nearly finished with her credential and one of the things we were talking about was incorporated rights. It is still the view of the credentialing program that the 2nd amendment is not incorporated.

Teachers are required to stick to the state approved curriculum.

FUD. You just had to get them all riled up didn't you?

I seriously doubt any "credentialing program" even covers the 2nd Amendment. They are too busy trying to teach you about differentiated instruction, realia, and making you do long complicated lesson plans you will never use again.

You generally learn about your content with your undergraduate degree and learn how to teach with a credential.

Further, what is the "state approved curriculum"? There are CA State Content Standards. A quick search of the content standards for "2nd:, "Second", and "rights" reveals no relevant results.

Can you link to this "state approved curriculum?"

donw
10-04-2011, 8:18 AM
one of the things i taught my kids (who are all now grown adults) is that if you let the politicians, they WILL take away the 2A...then...which liberty will be next on the "Not really a right" list? speech? religion? press? assembly?

the current administration is making one of the most blatant, open assaults, we've ever witnessed on the 2A...if he wins...he WILL go after another...then another, then another...make no mistake about it.

whether her teacher likes it OR NOT, the 2A is a part of the Constitution and MUST be respected as such!

tenpercentfirearms
10-04-2011, 9:27 AM
the current administration is making one of the most blatant, open assaults, we've ever witnessed on the 2A...if he wins...he WILL go after another...then another, then another...make no mistake about it

Really, how are they doing that?

This thread just keeps on giving.

http://www.thestoragealchemist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/fud2.jpg

CycloSteve
10-04-2011, 1:40 PM
http://i.imgur.com/tE9tU.jpg

If my son came home with this letter, I would remove him from that school the next day. Private education appears more and more appealing each and every day.

MasterYong
10-04-2011, 4:24 PM
That's so sad.

My seventh-grade social studies teacher spent a month on the constitution, when he only had to spend like 2 or 3 days as far as the required material was concerned.

He also started with the 2nd amendment, explaining that it secures the rest and secures our freedom.

That was his last year teaching, sadly. Retired and didn't teach another class. Many students hated that teacher and dreaded having to be in his class because he was a bit dry, took no nonsense at all, and didn't really appreciate students trying to have fun in his class.

I thought he was the best teacher I ever had.

curtisfong
10-04-2011, 4:38 PM
You need somebody who isn't perceived as an enemy to talk to the teacher and the administration. Preferably a "liberal" (or somebody who can credibly pose as one) who believes in civil rights, and is ready to present gun rights as civil rights in a way such that the teacher (and administration) doesn't feel threatened.

hornswaggled
10-04-2011, 11:43 PM
Consult an attorney if you don't get some type of rectification. It sucks being in such a litigious society, but hey sometimes you gotta play the game. I'm 99% sure the school and board will circle their wagons like liberal bureaucracies always do and try to stonewall you. Hit them where it counts.

ldivinag
10-05-2011, 3:12 AM
you people think anything can be turned around on this teacher?

their minds are made up already...

tenpercentfirearms
10-05-2011, 6:33 AM
you people think anything can be turned around on this teacher?

their minds are made up already...

Yeah actually I do. That is why I think he should meet with her and discuss the issue. Bring in the school board and lawyers and all of the other silly suggestions and you are correct, she will get defensive and not want to change. Talk to her like a normal human being without getting her boss involved and she might.

Don29palms
10-05-2011, 7:01 AM
I don't see what the problem is. The teacher is correct. We don't have rights anymore. We only have privileges that the government allows us to have. As far as 2A goes, that right was taken away long ago especially here in Kalifornia. You can only get permission to own certain firearms that the government will let you have.

You don't need permission to exercise a RIGHT! If you have to get permission it is no longer a RIGHT it's a PRIVILEGE!

BillCA
10-05-2011, 9:05 AM
the current administration is making one of the most blatant, open assaults, we've ever witnessed on the 2A...if he wins...he WILL go after another...then another, then another...make no mistake about it
Really, how are they doing that?

This thread just keeps on giving.


It's not that Obama will restrict other rights if the 2nd is neutered, it's that all politicians will work to neuter various provisions of the constitution until it's meaningless.

Start with the 7th amendment that guarantees a jury trial for civil suits over $20 in value. Some bright boy might determine that inflation has changed the value from $20 to $800 (or $1000 or $10,000), depriving many of the right to a jury trial in civil suits.

Or perhaps the term unreasonable search loses much of its meaning as government lawyers argue away the standard meaning of "expectation of privacy" to something much smaller and much more limited. For example, arguing that the contents of your pockets aren't really private as most people often remove items during purchases or digging for change in a pocket. Or perhaps the argument is that you failed to engage some security on an electronic device (perhaps options that reduce it's usefulness or connectivity) so that means your personal information has no "expectation of privacy".

Fictitious Simily
10-05-2011, 9:10 AM
Call Sean Hannity...he loves to get this kind of educational abuse out there.

+1 on that

basalt
10-05-2011, 9:38 AM
BRAVO! You should be proud of the two of you!

I know a ton of teachers, and every one of them is an extremely anti-gun liberal (my personal experience, not a shot an any teachers out there). It seems most people that want to become teachers are. Most are women, most are liberal. It takes a special person to dedicate so much of themselves to teaching our children for so little. Liberals just fall into that category more often.

However, all the history teachers I know are men, and all of them are the most anti-gun liberals I know. This is a problem with teaching in general. Only the best teachers are able to present both sides in an unbiased way. I think the biggest outrage is the teacher voiced her personal belief that the 2nd amendment isn't a real right. Although maybe she was even taught that in college? That is why it is up to us to educate our children and fill in the gaps. And teach them to voice their opinion and exercise their rights in a respectful manner.

Take it to the school board, and take some press with you.

Wherryj
10-05-2011, 11:19 AM
Well, to be fair, you can't blame just the teacher. Most our own politicians don't feel that ANY of the amendments in the Bill of Rights ACTUALLY still apply.

curtisfong
10-05-2011, 12:08 PM
you people think anything can be turned around on this teacher?

Absolutely false. The trick is the right approach, something a minority of gunnies seem to be able to do when confronted by a hoplophobe.

Hint: oaklander is on the right track.

oaklander
10-07-2011, 2:46 AM
Absolutely false. The trick is the right approach, something a minority of gunnies seem to be able to do when confronted by a hoplophobe.

Hint: oaklander is on the right track.

YES!!!

This IS a civil right. And although we as gun owners (of all races) are NOT as screwed as the blacks were (and are, many times) - we DO NEED TO STAND UP.

This means that public employees who attempt to diminish the RIGHT are metaphorical fair game for any and all legal and ethical remedies.

This includes the following:

1) Lawyer letters to all relevant decisionmakers at the school, the district, the county, city, and state.

2) Letters to relevant press outlets both online and off.

3) Letters to teacher licensing associations and unions.

4) Letters to other opinion leaders and decisionmakers.

ALL letters should ONLY ask for appropriate discipline and counseling for the teacher. She is not our opposition, but at the same time - we can never let this happen. I know this is an ongoing issue, and I have just outlined a way to STOP it.

My mom was a teacher, so I do not want to hear sympathetic things about them. I LOVE TEACHERS!

BUT - They work FOR THE TAXPAYERS AND SHOULD FOLLOW THE LAWS AND RULES ON ALL RIGHTS.

If we use the above reasonable and fair procedure, this issue will stop - OR - will end up in litigation. I can't speak for any group on litigation stuff, but I can say that it is not smart these days to think that anti-rights stuff will win in any court in any part of the state. Judges are rational people, and being anti-rights kind of gives you a glass ceiling.

This stuff is political. Guns are the new "do not mess with" thing. Everyone is afraid of litigation, and for good reason - we generally win it now. No judge wants to be overruled by the Supreme Court. That looks bad!


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

Tarn_Helm
10-07-2011, 3:39 AM
YES!!!

This IS a civil right. And although we as gun owners (of all races) are NOT as screwed as the blacks were (and are, many times) - we DO NEED TO STAND UP.

This means that public employees who attempt to diminish the RIGHT are metaphorical fair game for any and all legal and ethical remedies.

This includes the following:

1) Lawyer letters to all relevant decisionmakers at the school, the district, the county, city, and state.

2) Letters to relevant press outlets both online and off.

3) Letters to teacher licensing associations and unions.

4) Letters to other opinion leaders and decisionmakers.

ALL letters should ONLY ask for appropriate discipline and counseling for the teacher. She is not our opposition, but at the same time - we can never let this happen. I know this is an ongoing issue, and I have just outlined a way to STOP it.

My mom was a teacher, so I do not want to hear sympathetic things about them. I LOVE TEACHERS!

BUT - They work FOR THE TAXPAYERS AND SHOULD FOLLOW THE LAWS AND RULES ON ALL RIGHTS.

If we use the above reasonable and fair procedure, this issue will stop - OR - will end up in litigation. I can't speak for any group on litigation stuff, but I can say that it is not smart these days to think that anti-rights stuff will win in any court in any part of the state. Judges are rational people, and being anti-rights kind of gives you a glass ceiling.

This stuff is political. Guns are the new "do not mess with" thing. Everyone is afraid of litigation, and for good reason - we generally win it now. No judge wants to be overruled by the Supreme Court. That looks bad!


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

You can do all this in combination with what I suggested.

In terms of strategy, this will amount to a sort of pincer movement: You are pressuring from two different directions, the inside (via mechanisms internal to the school system) and the outside (via mechanisms and people external to the school system).

Getting this in the press could really help too.

Keep fighting.
:chris:

951temec
10-07-2011, 3:47 AM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

If its a public school, they usually avoid any and all controversy. and purposefully bringing up controversial topics will just get you sent to a "counselor" which is pretty much just a disciplinary dean, for the people who went to high school in the 60's and 70's here.

They're not actually telling your daughter that she shouldn't have a firearm, or that she should feel bad for doing so. she's just avoiding controversy.
Its the same for the parents who want their children to be taught about, gun control, gay rights, and marijuana legalization in schools. the answer is simply no to both sides.

the school system wants to "stay in the middle/be moderate"

oaklander
10-07-2011, 11:43 AM
If its a public school, they usually avoid any and all controversy. and purposefully bringing up controversial topics will just get you sent to a "counselor" which is pretty much just a disciplinary dean, for the people who went to high school in the 60's and 70's here.

They're not actually telling your daughter that she shouldn't have a firearm, or that she should feel bad for doing so. she's just avoiding controversy.
Its the same for the parents who want their children to be taught about, gun control, gay rights, and marijuana legalization in schools. the answer is simply no to both sides.

the school system wants to "stay in the middle/be moderate"

WRONG!

There is no middle here. It IS AN INDIVIDUAL RIGHT - THAT IS THE LAW.

And that is what need to be taught to the kids.

We must not try to smooth over rights violations. A public teacher is not entitled to say that something is X when it is really Y. Having a public teacher even SAY it it is not a right is repugnant.

We do not back down on this.


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

Bad Kitty
10-07-2011, 1:52 PM
When I was in junior high, I had a 2A discussion with a history teacher. He was convinced that the 2A referred to the National Guard and the military.

I pointed out that if we refer to the first 10 amendments as the "Bill of Rights", as in they are individual rights, then wouldn't the Second Amendment be out of place in such a context?

oaklander
10-07-2011, 2:18 PM
When I was in junior high, I had a 2A discussion with a history teacher. He was convinced that the 2A referred to the National Guard and the military.

I pointed out that if we refer to the first 10 amendments as the "Bill of Rights", as in they are individual rights, then wouldn't the Second Amendment be out of place in such a context?

I am a stickler for law. Even laws I do not like. When they conflict, I go with the one that is common sense. HERE, our own supreme court has RULED that it is an individual right. Teachers can certainly discuss different viewpoints, and I LOVE TO SEE THIS SORT OF DISCUSSION. But not in lower class levels.

Kids below a certain age do not have the ability to discern subtleties. Until they are old enough to really understand the complex issues, they should be taught THE LAW. Also, at a young age, the "opinions" of teachers ARE THE LAW for kids. The kids simply do not have the ability to understand an opinion versus a "fact."

As we re-establish our rights, we must stay vigilant like this. Sorry to sound so harsh - but this IS A RIGHT THAT PEOPLE HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED FOR. My tax money SHOULD NOT PAY for someone to disrespect it.

The teacher needs counseling and a reprimand. If this happens a few times, it will discourage other teachers from using PUBLIC money to teach things that are simply NOT TRUE!

AGAIN GUYS/GALS - it IS an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT - and that is what WILL BE TAUGHT.

Any questions, class?

;-)


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

dantodd
10-07-2011, 2:37 PM
the school system wants to "stay in the middle/be moderate"

Think of this in terms of other civil rights. Would a school teach that Religious Freedom is outdated and really you should only belong to one of the "good" religions? Would a school teach that the 14th amendment doesn't really constitute a "right" and that desegregation isn't really necessary because people of other races can have separate but equal access to services.


In a decade or two anyone teaching that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms isn't an individual right will sound just as bigoted and out of touch as the examples above.

We should do what we can to ensure that it starts now.

AXI
10-07-2011, 7:30 PM
OK, so my daughter comes home from middle school this week and starts talking about the constitution. Her teacher was reviewing the first, third, and ninth amendments and my daughter puts her hand up and asks why they are not covering the second amendment. Now although she is only 14, my daughter and I spend many enjoyable hours at the range and she is quite a good shot, not to mention she is more responsible with a firearm than some adults I know. She is also a firm believer in RKBA and 2a so she was somewhat upset when the teacher responded that the 2nd Amendment is really just a remnant of colonial days and not really a right in todays society. My daughter got quite upset and started telling the teacher and the class that ALL the amendments INCLUDING the second are absolutely applicable today and that while SOME people may not appreciate or agree with them all, it was her duty as a teacher to educate students on all of them equally and let them make their own decisions regarding them. She also told the teacher that as a teacher, it was extremely irresponsible and arrogant of her to think that she could decide which amendments she would teach her students about and which not. At that point she was ejected from the class and sent to the office for "disrupting" the students education. She told the principal about the situation but he just shrugged it off and told her not to be causing a disturbance in the class like that again. This incident has really got me worked up and the more I think abut it the more I want to file a complaint with the school board. This teacher cannot be allowed to arbitrarily decide what course material she can teach and what she can leave out. This amounts to nothing short of propaganda of sorts. What's next? Is she going to start putting a spin on historical events as well to suit her own liking? I really feel that something needs to be done about this. Any thoughts from others here? What would you do if you were in this situation?

File a lawsuit. I'm not kidding.

Also, contact the NRA.

Teacher Sp Ed
10-07-2011, 9:02 PM
Tuna Quesadilla,

I just opened this thread, yes I know that it has been going on for 6 pages. I am surprised that no one has called you out yet, or maybe they know that you are simply irresponsible in your posts.

Your suggestion that your daughter say that her teacher touched her as a remedy for the teacher teaching something that you disagreed with is at best irresponsible and calls into question your ability to use or own a firearm with the adult sensitivity needed of a responsible adult.

As a teacher, lawyer, gun owner, licensed to carry individual and father your judgement is to be seriously questioned.

gunsmith
10-07-2011, 10:46 PM
Tuna Quesadilla,

I just opened this thread, yes I know that it has been going on for 6 pages. I am surprised that no one has called you out yet, or maybe they know that you are simply irresponsible in your posts.

Your suggestion that your daughter say that her teacher touched her as a remedy for the teacher teaching something that you disagreed with is at best irresponsible and calls into question your ability to use or own a firearm with the adult sensitivity needed of a responsible adult.

As a teacher, lawyer, gun owner, licensed to carry individual and father your judgement is to be seriously questioned.

methinks your sarcasm meter needs adjusting good sir. ;-)

Anyway, this thread has gone on and on and my comments are probably the best.
It's probably not really the teachers fault, the text books are written that way.

We are on the front line and know stuff, the teacher only knows whats in the text book.

We need to change textbooks nation wide to address this problem.

oaklander
10-08-2011, 12:25 AM
File a lawsuit. I'm not kidding.

Also, contact the NRA.

Wrong. Not appropriate for lawsuit. Ties up judicial resources. Will lose in first responsive pleading. IMHO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

oaklander
10-08-2011, 12:33 AM
All, like I said above - we just do what I outlined. Nothing else.

What I outlined is what any other civil rights group would do. Even joking about making false allegations is morally wrong.

This is not a religous battle. But keeping and regaining our rights IS A MORAL BATTLE. That means WE are the good guys, and we ACT LIKE GOOD GUYS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

shooter5
10-08-2011, 12:44 AM
File the complaint all day!! Let them know your going to be a HUGE pain in their ***.. Thats the only way this kind of BS stops.. I know not everyone can afford an alternative school, but you have to at least threaten to pull her if they push back on you!

The schools get their matching Federal dollars "per butt in seat".. That's really the only way to get their attention.

Good luck to you!

safewaysecurity
10-08-2011, 12:44 AM
Funny thing. They actually discussed the Second Amendment in my sister's class yesterday. And then teacher was talking about automatic weapons and how they are dangerous to society and everyone in the class that was voicing their opinion was anti-gun and my sister knowing me and having gone to the range with me understands what the Second Amendment is about and basically was the only one in the class that stood up for the constitution and tried her best to school everyone on it. I'm kinda proud.

BillCA
10-08-2011, 8:38 AM
YES!!!

This IS a civil right. And although we as gun owners (of all races) are NOT as screwed as the blacks were (and are, many times) - we DO NEED TO STAND UP.

This means that public employees who attempt to diminish the RIGHT are metaphorical fair game for any and all legal and ethical remedies.

This includes the following:

1) Lawyer letters to all relevant decisionmakers at the school, the district, the county, city, and state.

2) Letters to relevant press outlets both online and off.

3) Letters to teacher licensing associations and unions.

4) Letters to other opinion leaders and decisionmakers.

ALL letters should ONLY ask for appropriate discipline and counseling for the teacher. She is not our opposition, but at the same time - we can never let this happen. I know this is an ongoing issue, and I have just outlined a way to STOP it.
<snip for brevity>

Oaklander,

I agree with you but there is one more place that needs to be brought into line -- the university teaching programs. Teachers who specialize in History or American History are taught in universities and obtain their degrees therefrom. It is this "content" that forms the teacher's knowledge. Credentials for teaching only means they have been taught how to be a teacher.

This would be attacking the source of a teacher's ignorance or bias against the right. Teachers should no longer be graduating from universities thinking that the 2nd is a relic, outdated, outmoded or obsolete.

I think it would be interesting to ask anyone who is, or who knows someone who is, taking university level classes in American History to pay attention to how their university treats the Second Amendment and/or the bill of rights. I'm sure many good professors have updated their materials since Heller just as I'm sure some have not, either through laziness or ignorance.

Super Spy
10-08-2011, 5:01 PM
OP, I think your daughter deserves a big raise to her allowance. You are clearly raising her right, so Bravo to You Sir!

oaklander
10-08-2011, 7:30 PM
Oaklander,

I agree with you but there is one more place that needs to be brought into line -- the university teaching programs. Teachers who specialize in History or American History are taught in universities and obtain their degrees therefrom. It is this "content" that forms the teacher's knowledge. Credentials for teaching only means they have been taught how to be a teacher.

This would be attacking the source of a teacher's ignorance or bias against the right. Teachers should no longer be graduating from universities thinking that the 2nd is a relic, outdated, outmoded or obsolete.

I think it would be interesting to ask anyone who is, or who knows someone who is, taking university level classes in American History to pay attention to how their university treats the Second Amendment and/or the bill of rights. I'm sure many good professors have updated their materials since Heller just as I'm sure some have not, either through laziness or ignorance.

Yes, I am hoping that the newer scholars (like Winkler) will have an effect on the discourse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

doubledgarage
10-09-2011, 3:15 AM
My AP US History teacher insisted the 2nd Amendment meant the National Guard, etc...

HowardW56
10-09-2011, 5:29 AM
My AP US History teacher insisted the 2nd Amendment meant the National Guard, etc...

How long ago were you in AP US History class? Prior to Heller & McDonald that was a common argument by the anti-gun segment of the population.

They argued that it was a collective right rather than an individual right...

doubledgarage
10-09-2011, 5:33 AM
How long ago were you in AP US History class? Prior to Heller & McDonald that was a common argument by the anti-gun segment of the population.

They argued that it was a collective right rather than an individual right...

2000 or so. Damn, time flies. :(

HowardW56
10-09-2011, 5:35 AM
2000 or so. Damn, time flies. :(

Heller, in 2008, determined that it is an individual right.

crazy
10-09-2011, 10:21 AM
I wish I had cojones like that when I was your daughters age. Im sure you're very proud of her.

Which Way Out
10-09-2011, 11:18 AM
Kinda makes you want to go back to school. Can you imagine the fun you could have
raising your hand and asking questions with no worry of your grades.

OP please give an update on how things are progressing if any. Tnx

ElToro
10-09-2011, 11:42 AM
i graduated in 92 from a high school in San jose. my sr year econ/.gov teacher was a raging right winger ( it helped that it was an AP class) and most of my friends in our class were correct thinking smart kids.

my junior year US history teacher was a mountain man living history recreator. dude would show up in his buckskins and bring his flintlock to school once a year for display and shoot a blank (powder only). good gawd. could you imagine that today. theyd arrest everyone. now, he was a self admitted old school democrat and in 92 he was almost 60, but he did believe in the 2A and all the others. and he was very fair in respecting all points of view and good at getting kids involved in discussion needless to say, aside from being into history and .gov i got along with these men like peas and carrots.

to the OP - you need to get a national media type involved. having a news crew show up and make fools of these clowns will be fun for them. have your daughter record her 1 on 1 lectures with her i-phone for posterity. in my meeting with the principal and teacher i would make it abuntlty clear there will be unfun times ahead of they hold this against her and unfairly single her out over this..

The Wingnut
10-09-2011, 12:47 PM
my junior year US history teacher was a mountain man living history recreator. dude would show up in his buckskins and bring his flintlock to school once a year for display and shoot a blank (powder only). good gawd. could you imagine that today. theyd arrest everyone. now, he was a self admitted old school democrat and in 92 he was almost 60, but he did believe in the 2A and all the others. and he was very fair in respecting all points of view and good at getting kids involved in discussion needless to say, aside from being into history and .gov i got along with these men like peas and carrots.

I'm wondering if this is the same guy who gave the presentation to my school when I was in 4th grade at Fammatre Elementary in San Jose. He finished the presentation by firing off a blank and filling the auditorium with blackpowder smoke and the stench of rotten eggs. It was awesome.

IlDuche
10-09-2011, 12:54 PM
BRAVO! You should be proud of the two of you!

I know a ton of teachers, and every one of them is an extremely anti-gun liberal (my personal experience, not a shot an any teachers out there). It seems most people that want to become teachers are. Most are women, most are liberal. It takes a special person to dedicate so much of themselves to teaching our children for so little. Liberals just fall into that category more often.


Very true, but my missus breaks the cycle on that one. To the OP- wish your kid was in my wife's elementary school class. She would have gotten immediate A's, and they probably would have gone to the range together!

Soldier415
10-09-2011, 1:58 PM
Tuna Quesadilla,

I just opened this thread, yes I know that it has been going on for 6 pages. I am surprised that no one has called you out yet, or maybe they know that you are simply irresponsible in your posts.

Your suggestion that your daughter say that her teacher touched her as a remedy for the teacher teaching something that you disagreed with is at best irresponsible and calls into question your ability to use or own a firearm with the adult sensitivity needed of a responsible adult.

As a teacher, lawyer, gun owner, licensed to carry individual and father your judgement is to be seriously questioned.
Lighten Up Francis...

gunsmith
10-09-2011, 5:23 PM
I've known a lot of teachers & none of them come close to the legal understanding you achieve by long term participation in the gun rights movement.

Text books all say the same thing, that the 2A is for the Nat Guard - houghton mifflin is the problem

Teacher Sp Ed
10-09-2011, 7:19 PM
The Constitutional Rights Foundation's pretrial motion in this years Mock Trial Program is a 2A issue. Many high schools in the State will be looking at this issue. For more information see the thread on Mock Trial. I am the teacher and lawyer coaching my high school's team this year.

OleCuss
10-09-2011, 8:30 PM
Thank you for your service in this area! Good to see active intellect working with our kids.

Personally, I'd hate to be a teacher nowadays. Fortunately we have a fair number of smart teachers dedicated to improving the intellect of our kids - and I get an earful from a lot of them about how the average teacher isn't even average (borne out by testing results, btw). And then the teachers have to be indoctrinated by a credentialling program which is less interested in teaching than it is in political correctness. Oh, and I've met a few of those who teach the teachers - I've generally been massively unimpressed.

So when I meet the bright and dedicated ones I'm honestly thrilled and grateful at their dedication and willingness to put up with all the insanities with which they are afflicted.

God Bless You!