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View Full Version : Are simunition uppers subject to NFA or CA-AWB?


superhondaz50
09-28-2011, 7:19 PM
I walked past a 10" simunition upper at a gun show several months back and didn't think anything of it at the time, but today I got to wondering if a simunition upper is regulated by the NFA? What about the CA-AWB? Not a regular round but some goofy paintball round, its centerfire, so I assume it's regulated by both.
Kinda interesting to think about...

brando
09-28-2011, 7:44 PM
It's not a goofy paintball round - it's probably THE best tactical training aid for LEO and warfighters. I don't think they're NFA controlled items, but that's a question I never considered for the simple fact that civilians tend not to use them. You could always ask the company...

heycorey
09-28-2011, 7:57 PM
I walked past a 10" simunition upper at a gun show several months back and didn't think anything of it at the time, but today I got to wondering if a simunition upper is regulated by the NFA? What about the CA-AWB? Not a regular round but some goofy paintball round, its centerfire, so I assume it's regulated by both.
Kinda interesting to think about...

I attended a carbine course in TX where part of the course used simunition. There were several military guys attending the course with their M4's. The instructor used simunitions bolt conversion kits with the M4's. If the upper you're talking about was only using a conversion kit, a 10" upper would quality as an SBR if it could be used with a standard bcg as well. I don't know if the company produces a simunitions only upper.

I doubt that simunition itself is regulated by any NFA regs, but the instructor also indicated that the company that sells simuntion was focused soley on leo/military customers. The instructor got qualified to use simunations because he has a lot of leo/mil students. I don't think civilians can purchase their products.

superhondaz50
09-28-2011, 7:59 PM
No, it was a full upper, with bolt, and a weird clear mag. The barrel was painted blue.

heycorey
09-28-2011, 8:06 PM
No, it was a full upper, with bolt, and a weird clear mag. The barrel was painted blue.

Well ... by golly, I got curious and googled a bit. It looks like they're trying to expand their customer base. (http://simunition.com/en/products/theme/civilian) I'd guess that they're still trying to control access to their product (via trained instructors). I'd also bet it's fairly expensive.

Diabolus
09-28-2011, 8:14 PM
Simunition costs a ton of money. Good training if you can afford it.

locosway
09-29-2011, 3:00 AM
It's not a goofy paintball round - it's probably THE best tactical training aid for LEO and warfighters. I don't think they're NFA controlled items, but that's a question I never considered for the simple fact that civilians tend not to use them. You could always ask the company...

Mostly because a lot of companies restrict the sale of high end training equipment to LEA's only. Glock has a Sim pistol, but it's LEA only. I've also inquired into sim training platforms, and I'm always told LEA only. I do know that some training companies can get some sim equipment, but it's really limited, and I think you have to show that you do some training with LE.

MrPlink
09-29-2011, 3:39 AM
Mostly because a lot of companies restrict the sale of high end training equipment to LEA's only.

a former Blackwater/Xe buddy of mine told me they will not sell as a matter of policy, not legality. Can anybody verify this?

Dirtbiker
09-29-2011, 8:32 AM
I've trained with simunitions and it's as close to the real thing as you can get. The rounds however hurt like HELL.

If you want a good training platform that anyone can buy go for a gas powered airsoft rifle. I have a G36 the look and feels like the real thing. It holds 30 rounds per mag and the bolt cycles like a rifle. You just don't get the boom and the expended shells.

locosway
09-29-2011, 11:01 AM
a former Blackwater/Xe buddy of mine told me they will not sell as a matter of policy, not legality. Can anybody verify this?

That's all it is, is policies, and liabilities. No one wants to train "civilians" because who knows what those crazy people will do... :rolleyes:

superhondaz50
09-29-2011, 12:15 PM
These do hurt like hell, I've had a buddy who's used one before. So does NFA apply? I don't think California defines it as a firearm because it's not intended to be used as a weapon, I just don't know what the feds say would say, I assume the same thing. I think it may fall into the same category as a blank firing only barrel... not regulated. I just thought it would be cool to have a 10 inch LEGAL upper on an AR that doesn't violate any law, pretty much something only for display, and nostalgia.

Quiet
09-29-2011, 4:19 PM
These do hurt like hell, I've had a buddy who's used one before. So does NFA apply? I don't think California defines it as a firearm because it's not intended to be used as a weapon, I just don't know what the feds say would say, I assume the same thing. I think it may fall into the same category as a blank firing only barrel... not regulated. I just thought it would be cool to have a 10 inch LEGAL upper on an AR that doesn't violate any law, pretty much something only for display, and nostalgia.

All Federal & CA gun laws apply.

A firearm equiped to shoot simunition is still a "firearm". [PC 12001(b)]

Possessing a simuntion 10" barrel AR upper with a AR rifle will get you arrested for possessing a SBR.

If you want something for display, get airsoft.


Penal Code 12001
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

superhondaz50
09-29-2011, 5:46 PM
Penal Code 12001
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

But is a simunition "gun" designed to be used as a weapon? The manufacturer says no, the same reason spud guns and flare launchers are ok because they are not designed to be a weapon, yet they use combustion to expel a projectile, it is however a fine line, and I'm definitely not gonna walk it. I think a better display item would be to lathe up a solid dummy barrel.

starsnuffer
09-29-2011, 7:13 PM
The only thing keeping a simunition gun from becoming a real gun is the BCG.

If you had a SBR with a "broken" or "nonfunctioning" bolt carrier, you'd still have a SBR. I'm pretty sure there are guidelines for making a weapon non-functional for display purposes, and that more then altering the BCG is required.

-W

superhondaz50
09-29-2011, 8:58 PM
Aren't the barrels only capable of accepting a 9mmFX round?