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entgunguy
09-27-2011, 3:35 PM
on the hkpro forum someone posted a question regarding using an hk usc for home defense. a lot of the responses were no- not because of the bullet but from the possible legal ramifications in using an evil looking rifle vs a plain jane handgun. i personally think from a ballistics standpoint you cannot beat a .45 acp for home defense but the responses do bring up a valid point because likely there would be litigation following a shooting. i have an hk usc which i have available for home defense but i am thinking about putting it back in the safe and just stick with my 1911 or glock 21.

are there any legal cases out there where the weapon used in self defense was questioned just because it was militarylike?

venturasurf
09-27-2011, 3:44 PM
If you use a steak knife in this state to defend your home there would be litigation. I say as long as you're going to get harassed by the system for defending your home you might as well use the best tool you have available for the job as long as it really is legal to own.

donw
09-27-2011, 3:57 PM
any firearm used in SD/HD will come under scrutiny.

it's the circumstances under which you chose to use the firearm that is critical.

as an example, I've heard that some CCW classes will advise NOT to use hand loaded ammo as than can constitute some "Planning" to shoot someone deliberately.

choosing to use a firearm (Of any kind) here in California is probably the worse place in the world, for legal purposes, for SD with all the perverted and convoluted laws pertaining to the ownership, use and possession of firearms.

i know a man who spent 7 years in prison for killing an invader that had, earlier, threatened to kill him. after the threat was made, he took out his AK to be accessible "Just in case". later, the invader DID, indeed, burst into his home with a revolver in hand, the man shot him once, killing him instantly.

the man was convicted of "Lying in wait" under some DA's convoluted way of interpreting his act of self defense into one of "Lying in wait manslaughter".

the use of an AK was NOT an issue at the time.

the DA contention was: the man knew of the threat, he should have notified LE and filled out a report.

Josh3239
09-27-2011, 4:00 PM
The idea of "don't use an evil gun for self defense" is just fear mongering from the tin foil hat club - they have no leg to stand on. The only question that will come up when you shoot do defend yourself is if it was lawful or not.

Bhobbs
09-27-2011, 4:01 PM
any firearm used in SD/HD will come under scrutiny.

it's the circumstances under which you chose to use the firearm that is critical.

as an example, I've heard that some CCW classes will advise NOT to use hand loaded ammo as than can constitute some "Planning" to shoot someone deliberately.

choosing to use a firearm (Of any kind) here in California is probably the worse place in the world, for legal purposes, for SD with all the perverted and convoluted laws pertaining to the ownership, use and possession of firearms.

i know a man who spent 7 years in prison for killing an invader that had, earlier, threatened to kill him. after the threat was made, he took out his AK to be accessible "Just in case". later, the invader DID, indeed, burst into his home with a revolver in hand, the man shot him once, killing him instantly.

the man was convicted of "Lying in wait" under some DA's convoluted way of interpreting his act of self defense into one of "Lying in wait manslaughter".

the use of an AK was NOT an issue at the time.

the DA contention was: the man knew of the threat, he should have notified LE and filled out a report.


And then allowed himself to be murdered like a good lower class citizen.

zfields
09-27-2011, 4:12 PM
And then allowed himself to be murdered like a good lower class citizen.

But at least his family could have sued the state afterwards!

Caladain
09-27-2011, 4:15 PM
And then allowed himself to be murdered like a good lower class citizen.

Nope, he would have then had a clean shoot on his hands.

Type of gun doesn't matter, as long as it's a legal firearm. Use a total Mall-ninja AR15 with 15 lights and puppy killing thing that goes up shroud.

If the DA is out to get you, he'll throw anything he can think of against the wall to see if it sticks. You should have a good lawyer in such a case...don't go budget, and you should be fine.

Josh3239
09-27-2011, 4:18 PM
But at least his family could have sued the state afterwards!

Fat chance. Multiple cases showing the state is not required to protect you.

Crowesnest
09-27-2011, 4:26 PM
Use your handgun or buy a shotgun! As far as your rights in California? Screw it.... Californians are sue happy and the way things are headed in this effed up state, criminals will have all the rights, not honest citizens.

motorwerks
09-27-2011, 4:31 PM
Fat chance. Multiple cases showing the state is not required to protect you.

And that we are not allowed to protect ourselves ether.

Dreaded Claymore
09-27-2011, 4:33 PM
Use your handgun or buy a shotgun! As far as your rights in California? Screw it.... Californians Americans are sue happy and the way things are headed in this effed up state, criminals will have all the rights, not honest citizens.

Fixed.

ZX-10R
09-27-2011, 4:51 PM
CA is lame. CA liberal gun owners respond not too use evil guns..."Gun owners" will use whatever. I will use what I want and argue later.

tomd1584
09-27-2011, 4:53 PM
If it's a matter of life or death for myself or my family, i'm using the weapon that gives me the best odds of living- REGARDLESS if its a 'evil' looking rifle. PERIOD.

rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6.

ZX-10R
09-27-2011, 6:37 PM
If it's a matter of life or death for myself or my family, i'm using the weapon that gives me the best odds of living- REGARDLESS if its a 'evil' looking rifle. PERIOD.

rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6.

Exactly. My family is worth more than the filth that messed up my floor. Heck I would sue their family for raising filth.

Merc1138
09-27-2011, 6:40 PM
Heck I would sue their family for raising filth.

Hmmm. People like to bring up generational poverty, nurture vs. nature, etc. I don't think anyone has actually tried to sue the parents of scum for being bad parents yet.

Cole125
09-27-2011, 6:45 PM
Best thing to do is avoid shooting someone by all means possible, even if you are in the right this state is so Fed up you will probably still go to jail. If someones in your house and you point a 12g shotgun or AR at them and say GTF out, chances are they will.

October
09-27-2011, 6:47 PM
If all guns in CA are suppose to have trigger locks in your home, by law, then it seems like a gun for self defense would be pointless and you might as well get a huge knife under your bed or something. If I hear something in my living room, I have 2 seconds to grab the closest thing to me. If my gun has a trigger lock, I have to grab the key, grab the gun, unlock the lock, cock the gun, then receive a bullet to my head because I took too long

ap3572001
09-27-2011, 6:56 PM
on the hkpro forum someone posted a question regarding using an hk usc for home defense. a lot of the responses were no- not because of the bullet but from the possible legal ramifications in using an evil looking rifle vs a plain jane handgun. i personally think from a ballistics standpoint you cannot beat a .45 acp for home defense but the responses do bring up a valid point because likely there would be litigation following a shooting. i have an hk usc which i have available for home defense but i am thinking about putting it back in the safe and just stick with my 1911 or glock 21.

are there any legal cases out there where the weapon used in self defense was questioned just because it was militarylike?

Its best when Your defense guns raise no questions. A DA revolver 38/357 , DA Service type pistol or. A 12 gauge pump can keep You very safe.

Bhobbs
09-27-2011, 7:24 PM
Nope, he would have then had a clean shoot on his hands.

Type of gun doesn't matter, as long as it's a legal firearm. Use a total Mall-ninja AR15 with 15 lights and puppy killing thing that goes up shroud.

If the DA is out to get you, he'll throw anything he can think of against the wall to see if it sticks. You should have a good lawyer in such a case...don't go budget, and you should be fine.

That's my point. The DA doesn't want you to defend yourself. That's why they throw what ever they can at you to see what sticks.

If the DA wanted you to defend yourself he would see the dead guy was armed and in the living guys house and would realize it was self defense.

NYY
09-27-2011, 8:04 PM
ive thought of this.. im sure a lot of people have. If you hear commotion or ruckus that you dont have a good feeling on, depending on weapon locations (most of you keep all them together) or some dont.. but you do have a second to think about, okay, if i have to use this, it will most likely get confiscated, so use my cheapest rifle? Or others choose the most effective weapon so that they can assure safety. everyone is different.

Reductio
09-27-2011, 8:09 PM
It's probably not a problem.... but I'm still just going to grab my Mossy 500 that looks like it just came off the Big 5 gun rack. It's better for HD anyhow in most ways.

Some crazy butt riot situation? Out comes the AR.

socalocalypse
09-27-2011, 9:17 PM
As I always say, the last thing you ever want to do is use a gun to defend yourself in CA. If i heard something downstairs id call the cops, do what the dispatcher suggested, and have a gun ready in case attacked. Maybe yell i have a gun before the cops arrive to discourage an intruder.

I know real life is more complex. I'm also confident that if I shot someone no matter the good cause my life would be turned upside down. Bankruptcy and jail time are a very realistic outcome of defending my life with a gun, so Id like to think id have the presence of mind to avoid it at all costs. Easier said than done in an emergency and half your brain goes out the window.

Sent from my SCH-R910 using Tapatalk

Droppin Deuces
09-27-2011, 9:24 PM
Evil looking..?
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/doghair/LMTACOG.jpg
That looks like a symbol of freedom to me, son!

Coyotegunner
09-28-2011, 1:01 AM
I have a SOCOM.While a neighbor was having his truck stolen.I hit the garage door button.Racked the slide in the light of the garage.Hit the panic button on the truck key fob.All the neighbors came out.The guy in the truck stayed in the truck until the owner had the cops there.Funny thing.I do not think a pistol would have had the same result.The police officer asked me to go back inside with the gun.I never left my property.Of course if I had fired it we would have a different ending.I will quote another calgunner here-If I can not bring a shotgun to a gun fight,then I am not coming.

Sir Stunna Lot
09-28-2011, 1:49 AM
I have a SOCOM.While a neighbor was having his truck stolen.I hit the garage door button.Racked the slide in the light of the garage.Hit the panic button on the truck key fob.All the neighbors came out.The guy in the truck stayed in the truck until the owner had the cops there.Funny thing.I do not think a pistol would have had the same result.The police officer asked me to go back inside with the gun.I never left my property.Of course if I had fired it we would have a different ending.I will quote another calgunner here-If I can not bring a shotgun to a gun fight,then I am not coming.

out of curiosity, could this situation have been turned around and have u charged with brandishing?

ChaneRZ
09-28-2011, 1:54 AM
+1 on this. It'll be another count if you pointed the gun at him also.

Big D
09-28-2011, 2:05 AM
Google the Harold Fish case. The prosecution made a big deal about the caliber and the fact that hollow point bullets were used in that case.

Inquirer
09-28-2011, 3:08 AM
Use your 1911 - your rifle won't fit under your pillow.

tacticalcity
09-28-2011, 3:35 AM
The DA has a job to do. He's going to make you out to be a bad guy any way he can. If you used a squirt gun filled with vinegar he'll make it sound like you used a chemical weapon developed by the soviets. Nothing you do will change that. Not your choice of gun, not your choice of ammo, not your level of training. That's just how it goes. Hope you never need to pull the trigger outside of recreation. Train as if you will. It's the old saying, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Quiet
09-28-2011, 6:46 AM
Several years ago...

A college student in FL used his semi-auto AK-47 style rifle to prevent a home invasion robbery.

A minor in TX used his dad's semi-auto AR-15 style rifle to prevent a robbery.

In both cases, the person using the firearm in defense was not prosecuted.

It all depends on the circumstances of the shooting and the position of the DA's Office.

Distro
09-28-2011, 9:39 AM
Several years ago...

A college student in FL used his semi-auto AK-47 style rifle to prevent a home invasion robbery.

A minor in TX used his dad's semi-auto AR-15 style rifle to prevent a robbery.

In both cases, the person using the firearm in defense was not prosecuted.

It all depends on the circumstances of the shooting and the position of the DA's Office.

The Police spokesperson had a great quote in that one. "We don't try to hide things from our children."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-q2zHIovOE

QuarterBoreGunner
09-28-2011, 9:49 AM
The idea of "don't use an evil gun for self defense" is just fear mongering from the tin foil hat club - they have no leg to stand on. The only question that will come up when you shoot do defend yourself is if it was lawful or not.

This right here folks; if it's a good shoot, it's a good shoot.
If it's questionable... well, then things get... complicated.

I'd worry less about the tool you use and worry more about deciding when and how to use that tool effectively and lawfully.

entgunguy
09-28-2011, 10:18 AM
it is all about perception. i have also heard that one should not use handloads for self defense. why not? a bullet is a bullet but in the eyes of the DA it may be perceived as intent. in the case of the homeowner doing jail time, i wonder if he had chosen something besides an ak47 then maybe the DA would not have pursued a prosecution. i don't know.

we as gun owners know a bullet from a mini 14 is just as deadly as one from an ar15 but the public perceives the ar15 as much more lethal purely based upon its looks.

it would be nice if any lawyers or members of law enforcement would chime in with their experiences on this subject.

Linkpimp
09-28-2011, 10:38 AM
IMO I think as long as I havenít painted it up, then youíll be fine lol..

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_9505-1.jpg


I don't think anyone as anything close to the evil these bad boys portray.. hahaha

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_5960.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_8381-1.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_0635.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_9528-1.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_0632.jpg

Linkpimp
09-28-2011, 10:39 AM
Of course lets not forget about the matching accessories too.. lol..

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_7746.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_7727-1.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_6240.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_7222.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_7351.jpg


Sorry guys I got to be me.. hahahahahahaaa..

Have a great one everybody..

Link

QuarterBoreGunner
09-28-2011, 10:43 AM
^shameless self promotion.

Linkpimp
09-28-2011, 10:49 AM
well To be far thou this is my home protection rifle.. ;)

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_9209.jpg


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_9239.jpg


^shameless self promotion.

Nooo.. come on you know me by now.. I just like to through in my two cents and stir the pot.. hahahaa

theicecreamdan
09-28-2011, 10:51 AM
If someones in your house and you point a 12g shotgun or AR at them and say GTF out, chances are they will.

If you're lucky enough to have a rational person breaking into your house, otherwise all bets are off.

TheExpertish
09-28-2011, 10:59 AM
If you use a steak knife in this state to defend your home there would be litigation. I say as long as you're going to get harassed by the system for defending your home you might as well use the best tool you have available for the job as long as it really is legal to own.

I agree.

on the hkpro forum someone posted a question regarding using an hk usc for home defense. a lot of the responses were no- not because of the bullet but from the possible legal ramifications in using an evil looking rifle vs a plain jane handgun. i personally think from a ballistics standpoint you cannot beat a .45 acp for home defense but the responses do bring up a valid point because likely there would be litigation following a shooting. i have an hk usc which i have available for home defense but i am thinking about putting it back in the safe and just stick with my 1911 or glock 21.

are there any legal cases out there where the weapon used in self defense was questioned just because it was militarylike?

I love H&K and especially the USC, but I think it's a poor choice for home defense. Shotgun day in and day out. Plus you'll save yourself at least $800.

If all guns in CA are suppose to have trigger locks in your home, by law, then it seems like a gun for self defense would be pointless and you might as well get a huge knife under your bed or something. If I hear something in my living room, I have 2 seconds to grab the closest thing to me. If my gun has a trigger lock, I have to grab the key, grab the gun, unlock the lock, cock the gun, then receive a bullet to my head because I took too long

Trigger locks or a safe, but what you do with it in your own home is up to you. If you have children then it's best to keep it locked in some fashion. If you need something locked and fast a biometric safe is your best bet.

well To be far thou this is my home protection rifle.. ;)

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_9209.jpg

Okay, now that is sweet. Flying Tigers style.

PanaDP
09-28-2011, 11:56 AM
Several years ago...

A college student in FL used his semi-auto AK-47 style rifle to prevent a home invasion robbery.

A minor in TX used his dad's semi-auto AR-15 style rifle to prevent a robbery.

In both cases, the person using the firearm in defense was not prosecuted.

It all depends on the circumstances of the shooting and the position of the DA's Office.

Florida and Texas are very different places from California. They might as well be different countries.

RONIN.
09-28-2011, 12:04 PM
any firearm used in SD/HD will come under scrutiny.

it's the circumstances under which you chose to use the firearm that is critical.

as an example, I've heard that some CCW classes will advise NOT to use hand loaded ammo as than can constitute some "Planning" to shoot someone deliberately.

choosing to use a firearm (Of any kind) here in California is probably the worse place in the world, for legal purposes, for SD with all the perverted and convoluted laws pertaining to the ownership, use and possession of firearms.

i know a man who spent 7 years in prison for killing an invader that had, earlier, threatened to kill him. after the threat was made, he took out his AK to be accessible "Just in case". later, the invader DID, indeed, burst into his home with a revolver in hand, the man shot him once, killing him instantly.

the man was convicted of "Lying in wait" under some DA's convoluted way of interpreting his act of self defense into one of "Lying in wait manslaughter".

the use of an AK was NOT an issue at the time.

the DA contention was: the man knew of the threat, he should have notified LE and filled out a report.

yes the man should of filed a report.. but as we know, the police are 5mins away when 2 mins are needed..

the leo's are spread so thin these days..

Inquirer
09-28-2011, 12:18 PM
IMO I think as long as I havenít painted it up, then youíll be fine lol..
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/linkpimp/IMG_0632.jpg

That is terrific. It's kind of haphazard, but the aesthetic really works somehow. Like some kind of Mad Max warrior boy who found some grease paint and decided to scrawl some at-once-amateurish-and-awesome skulls to ward off enemies. That is, it's not very clean but it's somehow all the cooler for it. Gonna have to get you to tag my Saiga when I get it. :)

--Inq

javalos
09-28-2011, 12:29 PM
We are living in a day and age where government would rather have an unarmed victim rather than a armed survivor.

For self defense, I have a pump shotgun. Big intimidation factor to hopefully scare the bad guy off and tends to be looked upon a bit more favorably for a self-defense scenario rather than a AK-47.

stix213
09-28-2011, 12:50 PM
If you come out of your bedroom with a truly evil looking gun in CA, you're more likely to scare the crap out of the perpetrator seeing that they aren't used to seeing evil guns in the hands of civilians. I would think this would actually make it less likely that he would force you to shoot him. My opinion

Quiet
09-28-2011, 3:01 PM
Florida and Texas are very different places from California. They might as well be different countries.

None of the Korean store owners that defended their stores during the LA Riots were ever charged with a crime.

PanaDP
09-28-2011, 3:30 PM
None of the Korean store owners that defended their stores during the LA Riots were ever charged with a crime.

Point being? You know as well as I do that, given the same borderline-of-legality situation, the California resident would likely be charged if not convicted while the Florida and Texas residents probably wouldn't even be charged.

luckystrike
09-28-2011, 4:52 PM
None of the Korean store owners that defended their stores during the LA Riots were ever charged with a crime.

Awesome.

peter95
09-28-2011, 8:48 PM
None of the Korean store owners that defended their stores during the LA Riots were ever charged with a crime.

That is true.... but because it was a riot. Now, if there was no riot, the government will try their best to put innocent civilians in jail...

LDSGJimbo
09-28-2011, 9:29 PM
I'd think its simply more likely to get the press/DAs interest (often the same thing). You may not want to be the subject of an investigation.

HBchevelle68
09-28-2011, 9:57 PM
any firearm used in SD/HD will come under scrutiny.

it's the circumstances under which you chose to use the firearm that is critical.

as an example, I've heard that some CCW classes will advise NOT to use hand loaded ammo as than can constitute some "Planning" to shoot someone deliberately.

choosing to use a firearm (Of any kind) here in California is probably the worse place in the world, for legal purposes, for SD with all the perverted and convoluted laws pertaining to the ownership, use and possession of firearms.

i know a man who spent 7 years in prison for killing an invader that had, earlier, threatened to kill him. after the threat was made, he took out his AK to be accessible "Just in case". later, the invader DID, indeed, burst into his home with a revolver in hand, the man shot him once, killing him instantly.

the man was convicted of "Lying in wait" under some DA's convoluted way of interpreting his act of self defense into one of "Lying in wait manslaughter".

the use of an AK was NOT an issue at the time.

the DA contention was: the man knew of the threat, he should have notified LE and filled out a report.

Reading that story made me sick to my stomach. Its disturbing how their are so many people in this world who lack common sense.

If another nation were to threaten our nation is it wrong for us to put troops on stand by? or to raise the threat level? This is the exact same thing but on a person to person level.

kosherbacon
09-28-2011, 10:04 PM
My mall ninja AR with light, red dot and tactool green laser is my go-to-gun for HD, appearances be damned. I'd rather survive, baby-killing rifle or not.

peter95
09-28-2011, 11:14 PM
Reading that story made me sick to my stomach. Its disturbing how their are so many people in this world who lack common sense.

If another nation were to threaten our nation is it wrong for us to put troops on stand by? or to raise the threat level? This is the exact same thing but on a person to person level.


+1
Amen to that.... this is exactly why I don't understand why this government. Bad Guy kills someone and he goes to jail (if they ever catch him) for killing an innocent man while the innocent family cries over his death.
Guy protects himself and they put him in jail for self protection? Psshhht.... beats me....

Everything is screwed up. All I know is that if anything likebthis ever happened to a fellow calgunner, we shall stay strong together and do a March in front of court...

mag360
09-29-2011, 4:13 AM
if it wasn't for bullet buttons I'd use my saiga 12...but I'm using my SW1911pd with light/laser instead.

sendithit
09-29-2011, 11:48 AM
Lots of opinions and thoughts of what the govt/LEOs/atty would do if certain types of firearms are used for hd. It would be interesting if someone HERE can post first-hand experience of what happened to them after they used an AR/AK for self-defense in home-defense in anywhere California.

Personally for hd, I'd go by force+1 for the win and would use whatever I felt comfortable with whatever I prefer to have within reach (and not what others might think of me) because my personal fear and the fear for my family in my house during a home invasion is my impetus to live/survive/win through the fight.

Show me an attorney who took the time to CHOOSE a handgun to defend himself and his family in his/her house when an AR/AK was also readily available then I might have to re-think my position. Until then, let's not be victims of political over-correctness.

Mofo-Kang
09-29-2011, 12:28 PM
That is true.... but because it was a riot. Now, if there was no riot, the government will try their best to put innocent civilians in jail...

Really? So every time anyone uses a gun for self-defense they're going to trial?

tacticalcity
09-29-2011, 12:39 PM
Really? So every time anyone uses a gun for self-defense they're going to trial?

No. It depends on the circumstances. It also depends on the cops/DA you draw. If they have no axe to grind, and it is clearly a good shoot you're good to go. If they have their own agenda...or there is some question about the shoot...you're screwed. Just like any other run in with law enforcement. It depends on countless variables. Some cops just write up and pass it along without trying to influence the call. Others will see you were clearly in the right and do everything they can in the way they write it up to see it is viewed that way by their superiors. The human factor plays a role every step of the way. Life is not black and white.

All you can do is train as best you can to know how to make the right call in that fraction of a second. Beyond that, it's not in your hands. No gun choice or ammo choice will matter. No matter what you use, if the DA wants your hide he will make it out to be the worst possible choice if he thinks it helps him secure a conviction. That's his job.

tacticalcity
09-29-2011, 12:40 PM
Lots of opinions and thoughts of what the govt/LEOs/atty would do if certain types of firearms are used for hd. It would be interesting if someone HERE can post first-hand experience of what happened to them after they used an AR/AK for self-defense in home-defense in anywhere California.

Personally for hd, I'd go by force+1 for the win and would use whatever I felt comfortable with whatever I prefer to have within reach (and not what others might think of me) because my personal fear and the fear for my family in my house during a home invasion is my impetus to live/survive/win through the fight.

Show me an attorney who took the time to CHOOSE a handgun to defend himself and his family in his/her house when an AR/AK was also readily available then I might have to re-think my position. Until then, let's not be victims of political over-correctness.

Expecting such an answer is fantasy. Even if such a person wanted to talk to you, they would either be behind bars or prevented from doing so by a gag order included in their plea agreement. You don't just walk away clean after they come after you unless you win at trial. If they offer a probabtion deal on a lesser charge you're gonna take it rather than risk a jury of 12 non-gun owning liberals with their own personal bias and pile of charges that includes every possible little thing the DA can think of.

Besides, using a neutered AR or AK for self defense is not exactly the best idea. You either have clumbsy featureless rifle or a 10 rounder with no realistic magazine changes. Better to use a different weapon under those circumstances and save the neutered AR for recreation. So if you did have a case of somebody using an AR or AK in self defense, odds are it was not legally configured so that completely changes the argument. Their crime was having an illegally configured rifle. Even if the shoot was clean, they still are in the wrong.

I seriously doubt you will find many cases of somebody using a California configured AR or AK in self defense. You will however find plenty of examples of people using other types of firearms...but it's unlikely they will want to say much about it on a public forum. Doing so probably opens them up to both criminal and civil liability, even if no gag order is in place. It would be really stupid on their part.

Besides, it doesn't matter. If you're worried about this you have your priorities backwards. Yes, you should be training as much to know when NOT to fire as when to fire. There should be lots of friend and foe drills worked into your training. You should be ever concious that the bad guy might actually be a good guy. That the noise down stairs might be your teenager or her boyfriend sneaking around and not a burglar. No kid is "that" good that you can just deny the possibility. So caution is required. Beyond that, if they decide to make an example out of you...well at least you and your loved ones are still alive. That is priority #1. If you have to go to jail, or loose all your money in order for your kids to grow up...it is worth it.

bruceflinch
09-29-2011, 12:44 PM
Dang Linkpimp! When the Zombies find out about your gear, they're just gonna avoid Orange County! :eek:

tacticalcity
09-29-2011, 1:16 PM
Something to note, if you attend one of the big schools training courses they include a legal and ethical lecture in the training. They also open themselves up to be called as expert witnesses on your behalf. So if the DA tries to characterize you as a mad man for using an AR or AK, they can be called as an expert rebutal witness to that. The smaller schools with only 1 or two day range only courses aren't as good for this. You want the big name schools, with the longer courses that include lecture time. That way the experts can testify that you wouldn't just shoot somebody without thinking of the legal and ethical consequences. That your fired because under those circumstances it was the only call. Because you've been trained as best as possible to know the difference. All of which works in your favor.

cabinetguy
09-29-2011, 2:15 PM
if someone bursts into my house they had better a good reason for doing so, unfortunately, robbery is the most likely. my front door is pretty secure, it would take a tool or several kicks to get in, the windows however are easy. my 12 guage is the go to, but if someone comes banging in the wee hours, im sending the wife and soon to be kid to a safer area with the phone to call the cops while I try to see what is going on. its not that the evil rifle might look bad, I just think buckshot is optimal for where I live.

cabinetguy
09-29-2011, 2:17 PM
oh, and if its a gunfight and I have to open the safe, i would have no issues with a ar for home defense. the da can deal with my attorney on that issue later.

javalos
09-29-2011, 3:15 PM
As some people have so well pointed out, going in front of a judge regarding a home self-defense shooting depends on the reporting officer/s, the DA's office, and the circumstance involving the shooting. If the shooting is clean and not fishy looking, the officers understanding and sympathetic, and the DA's office doesn't have an axe to grind against gun owners and isn't PC, your probably good to go.

jcaoloveshine
09-29-2011, 3:27 PM
I'm just gonna approach this from a practical point of view.

Having any gun in CA outside of a shotgun/handgun is impractical in a suburban/urban environment, not even gonna get into the whole "omg shoot through 10 walls if it's not a shotttiee!! argument".

1. If you have to defend yourself, your gun is basically gone. In fact, that's probably the least of your worries and the cost of the gun will seem like nothing in the long run after you've factored in time spent clearing your name and (most likely) hiring a lawyer. So do you really want to lose some high speed low drag tacticooled Delta Ranger Magpul Team 6 carbine worth $2000+? Just buy a shotgun or practical handgun.

2. Worst case scenario, you go to trial. Being that this is California, and in the eyes of hte public any gun that doesn't look like Elmer Fudd's shotgun is probably one of those AK47 hipfire assault weapons, I would assume aesthetics would matter. So again, just get a shotgun or handgun.

I feel like most of these "omg is my carbine a good defense gun??" threads are pure fantasy, like if your house gets burglarized you're really going to bust out I Am Legend style and save the day? Come on now.....

matticus
09-29-2011, 3:28 PM
Evil looking..?
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/doghair/LMTACOG.jpg
That looks like a symbol of freedom to me, son!

:79: hell yea!

Remaxman
09-29-2011, 5:21 PM
Hey, if you that worried about it...don't own a gun. Otherwise, shoot first and deal with the crap later!

sendithit
09-29-2011, 5:28 PM
Expecting such an answer is fantasy. Even if such a person wanted to talk to you, they would either be behind bars or prevented from doing so by a gag order included in their plea agreement. You don't just walk away clean after they come after you unless you win at trial. If they offer a probabtion deal on a lesser charge you're gonna take it rather than risk a jury of 12 non-gun owning liberals with their own personal bias and pile of charges that includes every possible little thing the DA can think of.

Besides, using a neutered AR or AK for self defense is not exactly the best idea. You either have clumbsy featureless rifle or a 10 rounder with no realistic magazine changes. Better to use a different weapon under those circumstances and save the neutered AR for recreation. So if you did have a case of somebody using an AR or AK in self defense, odds are it was not legally configured so that completely changes the argument. Their crime was having an illegally configured rifle. Even if the shoot was clean, they still are in the wrong.

I seriously doubt you will find many cases of somebody using a California configured AR or AK in self defense. You will however find plenty of examples of people using other types of firearms...but it's unlikely they will want to say much about it on a public forum. Doing so probably opens them up to both criminal and civil liability, even if no gag order is in place. It would be really stupid on their part.

Besides, it doesn't matter. If you're worried about this you have your priorities backwards. Yes, you should be training as much to know when NOT to fire as when to fire. There should be lots of friend and foe drills worked into your training. You should be ever concious that the bad guy might actually be a good guy. That the noise down stairs might be your teenager or her boyfriend sneaking around and not a burglar. No kid is "that" good that you can just deny the possibility. So caution is required. Beyond that, if they decide to make an example out of you...well at least you and your loved ones are still alive. That is priority #1. If you have to go to jail, or loose all your money in order for your kids to grow up...it is worth it.

Dude, this hypothetical subject matter IS subject to fantasy replies/opinions/etc. But until someone here is able to tell us what happened to him/her for using an AR/AK on a hostile suspect to protect him/herself and their family during an hd situation, then all we can do is fantasize what we would do in similar circumstances. There is no pat answer that will make it correct for everyone. All I and others know is what we think we'll do and with what based on our training/experience/and the law. Let me put it this way: If there is a law that prohibits me from using aa legally owned AR/AK for hd, then as a law-abiding firearms-owning US citizen, these two platforms would not be my choice.

But......if an AR/AK were all I had available at that very moment of suspect hostile action, I'd have no problem preserving my life and the lives of my loved ones with it. Hell, I'd use my truck to stop the threat if that's what it takes at that very moment. We pays our monies and we takes our chances.

Btw, gun toting, firearms training, actual shoot/no-shoot encounters, unarmed hostile encounters, and tool vs job discretion are not foreign subjects to me for the past 28 years....and so far I've come through relatively safe and unscathed physically, mentally, emotionally, and legally. This doesnt make me a better legally armed person than the next, but I do know what I've done and what Im apt to do when a hostile situation presents itself to me ;)

rugershooter
09-29-2011, 8:13 PM
I'm just gonna approach this from a practical point of view.

Having any gun in CA outside of a shotgun/handgun is impractical in a suburban/urban environment, not even gonna get into the whole "omg shoot through 10 walls if it's not a shotttiee!! argument".

1. If you have to defend yourself, your gun is basically gone. In fact, that's probably the least of your worries and the cost of the gun will seem like nothing in the long run after you've factored in time spent clearing your name and (most likely) hiring a lawyer. So do you really want to lose some high speed low drag tacticooled Delta Ranger Magpul Team 6 carbine worth $2000+? Just buy a shotgun or practical handgun.

2. Worst case scenario, you go to trial. Being that this is California, and in the eyes of hte public any gun that doesn't look like Elmer Fudd's shotgun is probably one of those AK47 hipfire assault weapons, I would assume aesthetics would matter. So again, just get a shotgun or handgun.

I feel like most of these "omg is my carbine a good defense gun??" threads are pure fantasy, like if your house gets burglarized you're really going to bust out I Am Legend style and save the day? Come on now.....

Aside from the ballistics, why exactly would it be impractical to own any gun besides a shotgun or handgun in CA? There are plenty of rifles/carbines that are perfectly legal and there's a lot that are just as PC as a shotgun such as the Marlin 1894. And that's a perfectly viable gun for HD.

How much do you value your life? Is it worth 2K to you? How about $500? Get whatever gun you're comfortable with that is within your budget. You know, shotguns aren't the only option for SD long guns. Carbines are good options, too. One of my best friends is getting a Marlin 1894 in .357 for SD. Less recoil than a shotgun was one of the main reasons she's getting it.

The main issue is whether or not the shooting was legally justified. Aside from that, people should use whatever they can afford that is comfortable and that they can shoot well.

chrisf
09-29-2011, 9:49 PM
If you use a steak knife in this state to defend your home there would be litigation. I say as long as you're going to get harassed by the system for defending your home you might as well use the best tool you have available for the job as long as it really is legal to own.

All I have to say about this is "you may all go to hell and ill go to texas"
And for all you folks that aren't texans, I have a quote for that too. "I wasn't born a texan but I got there as fast as I could"

Inquirer
09-29-2011, 10:03 PM
All I have to say about this is "you may all go to hell and ill go to texas"
And for all you folks that aren't texans, I have a quote for that too. "I wasn't born a texan but I got there as fast as I could"

But... You're in Hayward.

sendithit
09-29-2011, 11:06 PM
Its unfortunate when law-abiding legal-gun-owning US citizens believe that LEOs and the DA will hang them out to dry on a righteous sd shoot in an hd setting especially when there is apparent and obvious evidence that a suspect entered one's castle without one's permission to commit a felony crime while instilling FEAR in the castle-owner's mind.

If you're honestly in fear for your and your loved one's lives and the crook refuses to leave in spite of your presence, your command for him/her to leave, the display of the firearm of your choice in your hand(s), then the crook is an obvious threat to your and your loved one's safety...and...you must stop that threat. You're nnot a mind reader and there's no way for you to know what the crook is going to do next inside your home.

If for some reason my righteous shooting of a hostile uninvited badguy in my house goes to trial, I will only be concerned about MY state of mind (read: level of fear and anxiety for MY and MY loved one's safety in MY home) and why I utilized my firearm to stop the threat. If a crook gets shot in MY home, it will be attributed to his/her actions, not mine.

And....its not LEO's job to ensure I am safe in my own home. It is mine and mine alone. LEOs are not my personal security 24/7 and will more than likely not be in my house when a hostile crook and I confront each other.

LEO's job is to search for and apprehend the crook who was smart enough to leave when I commanded him/her to do so.

You do what you gotta do to stay safe and alive. I also doubt LEOs will skew their investigation of a righteous shoot no matter how anti-cop a burglary victim may be.