PDA

View Full Version : .380 or 9mm handgun thoughts...


Boristheblade
09-27-2011, 10:09 AM
I'm getting the itch for another pistol and I'm thinking about getting another pistol..
Right now I have a H&K USP 40 and love the gun, but want something small too.

I have been tossing around the idea of a .380 for the size of most of the guns. I like the S&W .380 body guard, Ruger LCP 380 and the Taurus 380 MILLENNIUM.

I also have a friend with a barely used Kahr P9 he will sell me for $300.00.

Thoughts ???

SoCal Bob
09-27-2011, 10:12 AM
Depends on what you want to use it for, .380's are good for concealment but the 9mm round is less expensive and easier to find. If the Kahr is a good price and you like it, get it and then get a .380 later.

Briancnelson
09-27-2011, 10:14 AM
I'd never buy a .380. You can get a 9mm that's just as easy to conceal, and has a much better round.

paul0660
09-27-2011, 10:24 AM
Thoughts ???

Buy the P9, although it really isn't very concealable. At that price, it probably has some issues, but you can pass it along to the next victim without losing money if you cannot get it to work.

Next thought is get a revolver.

chiselchst
09-27-2011, 10:35 AM
I'd never buy a .380. You can get a 9mm that's just as easy to conceal, and has a much better round.

I agree. I swapped out of a .380 for a 9mm, the only 9mm I own. I have a Kahr PM9, and it's very small. Check out this site for some good size info (might load slowly, be patient): http://mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf

Lone_Gunman
09-27-2011, 10:35 AM
Buy the P9. Sell the P9. Buy a PM9 with the money from the P9. PM9 is the smallest 9MM you're going to get in CA unless you find one to PPT or go through a single shot exemption. I wouldn't buy a .380 unless I was going to regularly be in situations where I absolutely couldn't conceal anything larger.

I just DROSed an LC9, if I had had the money I would have gotten the PM9, but I really needed something thinner and a little smaller to CCW than my G26. The LC9 fit the bill, the PM9 would have fit it a little better but you know how budgets can be...

RedFord150
09-27-2011, 10:43 AM
The 9mm is a better caliber. I will not argue that.
I bought a Bersa Thunder in .380 and love the gun. I paid around $270 plus tax and fees. This was brand new, not used. I think it is the best gun in that price range.
FTR, I owned a 9mm in the past and sold it.
Good luck.

den888
09-27-2011, 10:44 AM
I'd get the 9mm, cheaper ammo for practice!

loose_electron
09-27-2011, 11:12 AM
Funny thing is the 9mm - .380 rounds are different by 2mm in shell length and thats really it.

Ultra small 9mm has gotten a lot closer in size to the .380
The Bersa 380 is a great little pistol for the price, but the Ruger LC9 is roughly the same size. Can not really beat the LCP for the size.

Swift Justice
09-27-2011, 11:16 AM
I'd never buy a .380. You can get a 9mm that's just as easy to conceal, and has a much better round.

I've never seen any 9mm that will conceal as easily, or as many places, as my Ruger LCP.

That being said, the 9 is clearly a better round than the 380 and if you can conceal something that it shoots than that is the way to go. I carry as much gun as I can conceal given the occasion - either a G17 (sometimes), a G26 (usually), or an LCP (when I can't conceal either of the other two).

Boristheblade
09-27-2011, 11:19 AM
Ok thanks for the info I will look at 9mm then.

BajaJames83
09-27-2011, 11:26 AM
9mm is alot easier to find and cheaper. and there are pocket 9mm out there.....

Boristheblade
09-27-2011, 11:37 AM
Yeah the availability and price of 9mm has me leaning more towards the 9mm.

InGrAM
09-27-2011, 11:39 AM
If it is for CC then pick whatever you can conceal and will conceal EVERYDAY, which means whatever is most comfortable for you. If it is not for CC, then get whatever you want to have fun with. .380's can be really fun to shoot. I have a mustang plus II and it is a fantastic .380.

stix213
09-27-2011, 1:30 PM
I'd never buy a .380. You can get a 9mm that's just as easy to conceal, and has a much better round.

Have you ever held a Ruger LCP? I've never seen a 9mm as easy to conceal as an LCP.

InGrAM
09-27-2011, 1:47 PM
Have you ever held a Ruger LCP? I've never seen a 9mm as easy to conceal as an LCP.

Check this out, it isn't as small as the LCP but it is tiny for a 9mm
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3377/keltecpf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us//my-images/198/keltecpf9.jpg/)

Boristheblade
09-27-2011, 2:12 PM
Ok here is info off Kahr's website.

P9 / PM9
Caliber: 9mm / 9mm

Capacity: 7+1 / 6+1, 7+1 (magazine with grip extension)

Operation: Trigger cocking DAO; lock breech; "Browning - type" recoil lug; passive striker block; no magazine disconnect

Barrel: 3.6" / 3.0"

Length O/A: 5.8" / 5.42"

Height: 4.5" / 4.0"

Slide Width: .90"

Weight 15 ounces / Pistol 14 ounces


Magazines: 1 each: 6 rd flush floorplate & 7 rd extended grip

The Kel tec is about as big as the P9, but .5" shorter in height than the P9.


Its only .38" longer, .5" taller and 1 ounce heavier. I know for CC and wanting to keep something as small as possible but it almost seems hard to justify spending almost $800.00 when I can get the P9 for $300.00.

I don't have a CC and I can't get one. I'm just looking for something that won't stick out if I ever feel the need to carry. I know I'll probably get **** for saying that, but its the truth.

esartori
09-27-2011, 2:35 PM
I say get 9mm for many of the reasons stated above. Better round IMHO.

jessegpresley
09-27-2011, 2:44 PM
Its only .38" longer, .5" taller and 1 ounce heavier. I know for CC and wanting to keep something as small as possible but it almost seems hard to justify spending almost $800.00 when I can get the P9 for $300.00.

Three things. I don't think you're gonna find the P9 for $300 because it's non rostered, so it's gonna cost a bit more to have someone do the SSE.

Second, you can buy a PM9 new for $630 from Grabagun, for example. The "almost $800.00" Kahr is with the DLC slide and night sights. So now the price difference has shrunk to about $300.

Lastly, the build quality of the PM9 is superlative to that of the Kel-Tec, and despite some teething problems with some Kahrs, I would personally trust a Kahr more than a Kel-Tec. In fact, I do.

Bad Kitty
09-27-2011, 2:54 PM
When I bought my .380's, the ammo was about $7 a box...the price of .380 is terrible now. 9mm you can still find for $10 a box on sale.

paul0660
09-27-2011, 3:01 PM
I don't have a CC and I can't get one. I'm just looking for something that won't stick out if I ever feel the need to carry. I know I'll probably get **** for saying that, but its the truth.

I still think what you want is a snub nose revolver. They conceal better than any semi auto and always work. There are frequently .38's in the FS forum for less than $400.

Sturnovik
09-27-2011, 3:05 PM
I'm getting the itch for another pistol and I'm thinking about getting another pistol..
Right now I have a H&K USP 40 and love the gun, but want something small too.

I have been tossing around the idea of a .380 for the size of most of the guns. I like the S&W .380 body guard, Ruger LCP 380 and the Taurus 380 MILLENNIUM.

I also have a friend with a barely used Kahr P9 he will sell me for $300.00.

Thoughts ???

.38 special +P snub. Enough said. There more reliable and very good at CCW. Regardless, out of that list I'd recommend the LCP. Everywhere I read, as much of a bummer as it is, the SW has had issues and the Taurus I havent seen very much if anything on review wise.

Smith just lowered there price on their snubs. 642's are 400 up here. If stainless isnt your flavor, get a 442.

Sturnovik
09-27-2011, 3:05 PM
I still think what you want is a snub nose revolver. They conceal better than any semi auto and always work. There are frequently .38's in the FS forum for less than $400.

+1.

Boristheblade
09-27-2011, 3:09 PM
Three things. I don't think you're gonna find the P9 for $300 because it's non rostered, so it's gonna cost a bit more to have someone do the SSE.



I have a friend that will sell his P9 to me for $300.00. What is SSE?


Snub nose.... I will take a look at them when I gt a chance to go to a gun store. Thanks guys.

jessegpresley
09-27-2011, 3:12 PM
I still think what you want is a snub nose revolver. They conceal better than any semi auto and always work.

.38 special +P snub. Enough said. There more reliable and very good at CCW.

I purchased a J frame Smith & Wesson 642 from Jetguns.com for $337 delivered. Even after my $75 DROS I was just a hair over $400 for a dead reliable gun that weighs just 15 ounces.

Quickdraw Mcgraw
09-27-2011, 3:15 PM
I still think what you want is a snub nose revolver. They conceal better than any semi auto and always work. There are frequently .38's in the FS forum for less than $400.

The only reasons to go .380ACP are Kahr p380($590-$650) or Ruger LCP($350-450)! Both guns are amazing at dissapearing on you, not even an airweight .38 can compare! Even superlight airweights are 12-15oz. vs. 9oz. in the LCP.

btw just waiting to pick up my LCP so I may be biased at the moment.

Sturnovik
09-27-2011, 3:18 PM
I have a friend that will sell his P9 to me for $300.00. What is SSE?


Snub nose.... I will take a look at them when I gt a chance to go to a gun store. Thanks guys.

Cops keep going back to them for backups simply because they are quality. Tiny bits of lint and junk wont retard the slide and if it dont go boom, pull the trigger again. I have always agreed they dont got much capacity, but honestly, its a backup gun and/or CCW gun. Your not trying to take on china or something...

The previous post indicates you can find them cheaper as well which is good. I heard now there 400 and almost bought one, they used to be 460ish.

mif_slim
09-27-2011, 3:18 PM
9mm for sure.

380 is going for 15 bucks, 9mm for 9 bucks practice rounds...then there are kahr and kel-tec and lc9 to name a few that are small like 380's.

paul0660
09-27-2011, 3:19 PM
The only reasons to go .380ACP are Kahr p380($590-$650) or Ruger LCP($350-450)! Both guns are amazing at dissapearing on you, not even an airweight .38 can compare! Even superlight airweights are 12-15oz. vs. 9oz. in the LCP.

btw just waiting to pick up my LCP so I may be biased at the moment.

Yes I think you are over the top in love with your LCP!

Weight is less of an issue than shape, imo. I tried the Kahr and it looked a little brickish in my pocket. My snubnose does not.

Sturnovik
09-27-2011, 3:21 PM
9mm for sure.

380 is going for 15 bucks, 9mm for 9 bucks practice rounds...then there are kahr and kel-tec and lc9 to name a few that are small like 380's.

Well said, its a 9mm or go for a snub. Those ar decent 9mm's, ones I wouldn't mind CCW. I prefer snubs but those are very thin and nice pistols.

+1

Boristheblade
09-27-2011, 3:42 PM
Ok hold on... What caliber snub are you guys talking about? If you're talking about .380 didn't you guys just say the ammo cost more? I'm getting confused..

Sturnovik
09-27-2011, 3:45 PM
Ok hold on... What caliber snub are you guys talking about? If you're talking about .380 didn't you guys just say the ammo cost more? I'm getting confused..

.380 is a pistol round.

.38 special +p is the best snubbie round you can get. An example would be the Smith and wesson 642, 442, and a Ruger LCR.

Those all shoot .38 special and .38 special +P ammo.

.380 can be more expensive, at least in my area I can get .38 special for snubs cheaper than .380 pistol rounds, but honestly thats what the internets for. Can always find deals on it.

Boristheblade
09-27-2011, 3:57 PM
.380 is a pistol round.

.38 special +p is the best snubbie round you can get. An example would be the Smith and wesson 642, 442, and a Ruger LCR.

Those all shoot .38 special and .38 special +P ammo.

.380 can be more expensive, at least in my area I can get .38 special for snubs cheaper than .380 pistol rounds, but honestly thats what the internets for. Can always find deals on it.

Thanks for straightening that out for me.

Oceanbob
09-27-2011, 3:58 PM
I still think what you want is a snub nose revolver. They conceal better than any semi auto and always work. There are frequently .38's in the FS forum for less than $400.

Yes..This...^^^a good idea.

Having owned several .380s over the years (Walther PPK was my last one)..I would never own one again.

Especially in todays world of small 9MMs...Personally I can carry a Glock 26 very well. (Or G27 in .40..same size)

11 Rounds of hot 9MM will take care of you.

Be well, Bob

Sturnovik
09-27-2011, 4:06 PM
Yes..This...^^^a good idea.

Having owned several .380s over the years (Walther PPK was my last one)..I would never own one again.

Especially in todays world of small 9MMs...Personally I can carry a Glock 26 very well. (Or G27 in .40..same size)

11 Rounds of hot 9MM will take care of you.

Be well, Bob

+1.

Well said bob, I agree. I didnt know if he had a price limit or not, otherwise I would have said G26 too. It dont get much better with firepower and size than a G26/G27.

junkit_boy
09-27-2011, 4:11 PM
Get a 9mm. I have a FNP-9 for sale if you are interested. Fantastic gun.

Boristheblade
09-27-2011, 4:14 PM
+1.

Well said bob, I agree. I didnt know if he had a price limit or not, otherwise I would have said G26 too. It dont get much better with firepower and size than a G26/G27.

I don't have a real price limit. Mostly the offer my friend gave me for the P9 and being reasonable about pricing. I spent coin on my HK when I first bought it so money isn't really an option. I just don't think I need to spend $650-700 on this gun to get something I like.

stormvet
09-27-2011, 5:03 PM
Just say no to .380. Buy the 9.

InGrAM
09-27-2011, 5:26 PM
+1.

Well said bob, I agree. I didnt know if he had a price limit or not, otherwise I would have said too. It dont get much better with firepower and size than a G26/G27.

The g26 is a good option :thumbsup:
But I think for size and weight the kel-tec p-11 is better compared to the g26 but reliability is not as set in stone with a name correlation that the g26 has. NTM, the trigger is harsh on the p-11. For a CC pistol, the price, weight, size and capacity make the p-11 second to none.

But he does't want a CC gun. So that is pointless, lol.

paul0660
09-27-2011, 5:30 PM
I don't have a real price limit. Mostly the offer my friend gave me for the P9 and being reasonable about pricing. I spent coin on my HK when I first bought it so money isn't really an option. I just don't think I need to spend $650-700 on this gun to get something I like.

I have owned three Kahrs, and what I got out of it was learning how to RMA.

I would buy a used one that I personally put 100 rounds of carry ammo through without issue, or a new one.

They are the best CCW gun out there (if you don't want mag capacity), when they work.

Matt P
09-27-2011, 9:08 PM
Yes..This...^^^a good idea.

Having owned several .380s over the years (Walther PPK was my last one)..I would never own one again.

Especially in todays world of small 9MMs...Personally I can carry a Glock 26 very well. (Or G27 in .40..same size)

11 Rounds of hot 9MM will take care of you.

Be well, Bob


It seems there are several in this thread who have suggested that .380 is less effective then 9mm. Is that based on what you have experienced, or just what you have read/heard?
I can understand the affordability advantage of 9mm for a individual who wants to train more.
It is my opinion to discount, or suggest .380 in some of its smaller sizes does not deserve consideration due to what you feel is a less effective cartridge, could be a dis-service to a fellow member.
Its seems some of you who feel its less effective must be aware of more information then I am.
I thought by now on this forum we all could agree that its shot placement much more at issue with stopping a threat, or being effective in a gun fight, then a big bullet going down range.
Yes, certainly carry the biggest cartridge shooting handgun you can control/carry as much as possible.
I just hope the original poster does not leave 380 out of the question due to members here feeling its not as effective in stopping someone.
Unless you used it, and it did not stop that subject, how can you know it would not be effective for someone else?
I was in LE work for a very short time (7 yrs) and I never shot anyone.
I feel I am a little bit educated on this subject just due to my involvement in instructing for Tulare/Kings County/Madera/fresno city/County/Utah. Not that makes me an expert. Just more that the topic of cartridge comes up a little bit in classes.
What do I carry?
A 5.7 30% of the time, a NAA .22 Mag 70% of the time.
Better to have ANY handgun on your person most of the time, then the perfect handgun/cartridge some of the time.
I do not choose when I may need a firearm.
If I did, it would be a rifle anyways.
So, my choice works for me, and if I could only have one on my CCW it would be the little .22 mag.
Why not? I have never shot anyone, so how would I know my little single action would not be effective? I feel for me, it will be.
So much so, I am willing to stake my life, and my childrens lives on it.

My apologies if you feel this is an effort to turn this into a cartridge discussion. It was not.

chrisf
09-27-2011, 10:19 PM
Its all up to you, Try them both out and make a choice, What would better suite YOU. But if your going .380 id go with the ruger lc9 but thats just me (I'm a ruger kinda guy) 9mm is cheaper so you can shoot more rounds to get proficient at it which is a plus.

CGK60
09-28-2011, 6:17 AM
I'm looking for a 9 over a 380, cheaper ammo.

tacticalcity
09-28-2011, 6:40 AM
Given a choice I would want a 9mm or above. 380s serve a purpose, and sometimes that's the best tool for the job because of circumstances beyond what round is best. But since you're being offered a great deal on a 9mm I would go for it.

CaliTheKid
09-28-2011, 8:37 AM
Different guns for different situations.
What matters is that you have one with you.

If you can, get two.

A G26 (or similar sized 9MM) and a Ruger LCP will cover you in almost any situation. If you can't get an LCP, a 342 Smith is a great choice too.

Briancnelson
09-28-2011, 10:02 AM
Have you ever held a Ruger LCP? I've never seen a 9mm as easy to conceal as an LCP.

I have owned one. And it turns out with the right holster, I can conceal my p89 in my ordinary street clothing almost as well. That's a full size, metal frame gun. I am sure the same will be true when my supertuck arrives for my new XD. Maybe not in small shorts and a tight t-shirt, or in as many places, but it's completely concealable in what I would ordinarily wear on a work day, or in a pair of baggy cargo shorts and a camp shirt during the summer, and a lot more effective.

Not that I get the chance much sadly, since I live in LA County.

I never could shoot a tiny pistol very well, other than the .38 Bodyguard revolver I also owned, and that hurt my hand to shoot. And I have tiny hands.

There are plenty of nice, small 9mm's out there if you want a compact that are more easily shootable than an LCP or any other .380. The ammo is cheaper and more widely available, most of the 9mm's have better options for aftermarket additions and extensions, etc. In my opinion the subcompact 9's have shown themselves to be more reliable than the tiny .380's as well.

I stand by my statement. I know some of you are fans of .380 but I wouldn't recommend one to anyone who asked me, anyway.

If you must have a very small gun for whatever reason, I would get a .38 +p snubnose revolver all day long before a .380. You can use it's ammo in a larger .357 if you have one, it's smaller than most anything else, the ammo is cheaper than .380 and more easily reloadable (and shares a die with .357) if you want to go that direction. I think it's more reliable than virtually any .380 I've seen as well.

bombadillo
09-28-2011, 10:15 AM
I went back and forth on a bunch of guns for awhile and was in the same boat. I narrowed it down to wanting either a .38sp +P or a 9mm. I didn't feel the .380acp had enough oomph behind it so one of the former would work better. 9mm has a TON of options for ammo so your gun will like one of the many options out there. .38sp is another good one because they're so consistent but you're limited to 6 or 7 rounds max and reload is slower. The Smith 637 is great because it will shoot single action with a hammer as well as D/A in a defense situation and has a transfer bar so you can carry it chambered and ready, and they're really safe to handle. The Smith 642 was the hammerless version of essentially the same thing for me, but at DAO and no adjustable sights, I wasn't digging it too much. Trigger felt a bit heavy for me. Then I looked at the Ruger LCR and in .357mag, the weight was next to nothing, it ran mag rounds which was awesome, and had a GREAT trigger compared to the smith.

Then I came across a deal too good to pass up. I already have thousands of 9mm rounds including many types of defense ammo so I got a ruger LC9 which is a 19oz gun, has a real manual safety which a lot of people don't like but when I pull a 1911 from a holster I am used to pulling it out, releasing the safety, and firing so it feels natural to me. Its a 7+1 single stack mag fed gun that felt good in the hand, and has a pinky grip that felt great. It had adjustable sights and hardly anything to catch on. I like that its a hammer fired gun, not a striker fired which is just a personal preference. I thought the trigger was better than the Kahr PM9, and I got it with a holster, extra magazine, pouch, fired shot, and cleaning rod for $329 shipped. I couldn't beat the price so I snagged it. Can't wait for it to get out of dros and practice with it.

For what your'e looking for, I'd recommend these:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=76031
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/76/76031.jpg

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=73923
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/73/73923.jpg

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_922/products_id/26311
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/26/26311.jpg
I liked this one a lot because you can still fire it single action, but there's no real hammer to snag on anything

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_922/products_id/26306
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/26/26306.jpg

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_49_76/products_id/69296
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/69/69296.jpg

And last but not least the ruger.

All are great carry options, everyone has an opinion on them but for one reason or another they all have their ups and downs. Autos are quicker to reload but more prone to having a failure of some kind like a stovepipe or FTF. Revolvers are a little fatter due to the cylinder but generally they are a bit smaller and easier to conceal for the average joe. The triggers on the whole lot of them are going to take getting used to if you're used to firing single action because in a defense situation, you're going to be squeezing that thing off so make 6 shots out of a cylinder count can be difficult. All have great ammo options so a .38+p versus a 9mm+P is just an ammo debate and people will have differing view points on that one. Good luck with your decision and this is some of what I just went through deciding what I wanted.

tacticalcity
09-28-2011, 11:24 AM
It seems there are several in this thread who have suggested that .380 is less effective then 9mm. Is that based on what you have experienced, or just what you have read/heard?
I can understand the affordability advantage of 9mm for a individual who wants to train more.
It is my opinion to discount, or suggest .380 in some of its smaller sizes does not deserve consideration due to what you feel is a less effective cartridge, could be a dis-service to a fellow member.
Its seems some of you who feel its less effective must be aware of more information then I am.
I thought by now on this forum we all could agree that its shot placement much more at issue with stopping a threat, or being effective in a gun fight, then a big bullet going down range.
Yes, certainly carry the biggest cartridge shooting handgun you can control/carry as much as possible.
I just hope the original poster does not leave 380 out of the question due to members here feeling its not as effective in stopping someone.
Unless you used it, and it did not stop that subject, how can you know it would not be effective for someone else?
I was in LE work for a very short time (7 yrs) and I never shot anyone.
I feel I am a little bit educated on this subject just due to my involvement in instructing for Tulare/Kings County/Madera/fresno city/County/Utah. Not that makes me an expert. Just more that the topic of cartridge comes up a little bit in classes.
What do I carry?
A 5.7 30% of the time, a NAA .22 Mag 70% of the time.
Better to have ANY handgun on your person most of the time, then the perfect handgun/cartridge some of the time.
I do not choose when I may need a firearm.
If I did, it would be a rifle anyways.
So, my choice works for me, and if I could only have one on my CCW it would be the little .22 mag.
Why not? I have never shot anyone, so how would I know my little single action would not be effective? I feel for me, it will be.
So much so, I am willing to stake my life, and my childrens lives on it.

My apologies if you feel this is an effort to turn this into a cartridge discussion. It was not.

Unfortunately your argument is a loosing one. It's not even debatable. 9mm is more effective than .380. Most training schools won't even let you train with .380. It is not considered powerful enough to be a "defensive" round. They are making 9mms in .380 size packages these days. Most are not on the roster at the moment, but as more and more are release they will get submitted for evaluation and eventually make the roster.

I agree .380 and even .22lr has its place. But there is no argument about which is more effective.

theneko
09-28-2011, 11:53 AM
9mm - because "friends don't let friends shoot .380"...
:hide:

Sturnovik
09-28-2011, 1:22 PM
Unfortunately your argument is a loosing one. It's not even debatable. 9mm is more effective than .380. Most training schools won't even let you train with .380. It is not considered powerful enough to be a "defensive" round. They are making 9mms in .380 size packages these days. Most are not on the roster at the moment, but as more and more are release they will get submitted for evaluation and eventually make the roster.

I agree .380 and even .22lr has its place. But there is no argument about which is more effective.

Precisely. Well put.

In any case, every .380 platform I have shot had issues. There are quality designs but you end up paying alot more and the snubs arent bad guns. Anything could but your better off with a 9mm or .38 special +P.

RedFord150
09-28-2011, 1:31 PM
...In any case, every .380 platform I have shot had issues. ....

Have you shot a Bersa Thunder?
This is the platform I shoot in .380 that does not have issues. I am conceding the 9mm is a better caliber. I am merely pointing out that the Bersa is very well liked by those who have actually owned it, myself included. If the gun did not meet my expectations, I would have sold it in a minute.
The trigger on the Bersa far exceeds any snubbie I have compared it to. It is capable of 1.5" groups (5 shots) from 15 yards without using a rest.

Sturnovik
09-28-2011, 1:40 PM
Have you shot a Bersa Thunder?
This is the platform I shoot in .380 that does not have issues. I am conceding the 9mm is a better caliber. I am merely pointing out that the Bersa is very well liked by those who have actually owned it, myself included. If the gun did not meet my expectations, I would have sold it in a minute.
The trigger on the Bersa far exceeds any snubbie I have compared it to. It is capable of 1.5" groups (5 shots) from 15 yards without using a rest.

Aye, it was one of the better ones actually! I liked it in terms of quality but out of 2 I shot in two different circumstances, I had 2-3 failures. I actually forgot Bersa's .380, very good .380 as well. Out of all them, it had the best accuracy of the .380's I tried.

I had tried AMT's, Bersas, Walthers, Keltec's, Kahr's and I tried the LCP. But good point, if the OP really wants a .380 and no exceptions, he shouldn't forget the .380 Bersa.

Matt P
09-28-2011, 2:34 PM
Unfortunately your argument is a loosing one. It's not even debatable. 9mm is more effective than .380. Most training schools won't even let you train with .380. It is not considered powerful enough to be a "defensive" round. They are making 9mms in .380 size packages these days. Most are not on the roster at the moment, but as more and more are release they will get submitted for evaluation and eventually make the roster.

I agree .380 and even .22lr has its place. But there is no argument about which is more effective.

My argument for what there taccity? I was unaware I was creating an argument.
Most training schools? There are certainly recommendations from schools on what to use in cartridge, but can you cite one that says "No to .380 because of the cartridge" vs no because those handguns typically come in very small sizes?
So, what schools are you talking about. And how do you know this is their policy?
Who considers it not enough a "defensive" round? Gun magazines?

If you felt my argument was about the cartridge itself, then I should have made myself more clear for you, or others.
Clearly 9mm based only on a direct comparison between the two cartidges is considered to be more effective. I would not argue that.
The one factor that has the greatest impact on being effective in the defensive use of a handgun is accuracy. The application of that cartridge/handgun to that threat.
That alone is such a big factor, but not as great as you have to be armed with a handgun to be able to defend yourself with one.
So, have to have one on you, and you have to apply it with some degree of accuracy to be effective.
If the only thing that had the biggest impact was the size of the bullet, and all other things being equal, then yes bigger would be better.
It is unfortunate, that bigger almost always means more reaction for action.

They both are sooo important, that it's my opinion they both deserve way more consideration then what cartidge this or that one fires.
That was my point.
To discount 380 only because 9mm is better, takes nothing into account of options in .380 that could allow for that to be the handgun you carry most.

RedFord150
09-28-2011, 2:46 PM
Aye, it was one of the better ones actually! I liked it in terms of quality but out of 2 I shot in two different circumstances, I had 2-3 failures. I actually forgot Bersa's .380, very good .380 as well. Out of all them, it had the best accuracy of the .380's I tried....

I have had 2 FTF's in the 4 years I have owned mine. Both were WWB out of a ProMag magazine. Other than this, the gun feeds everything. For defensive use, I keep it loaded with Cor-Bon DPX 90 grain JHP's or Remington Golden Sabre 102 Grain JHP's.
Several Bersa owners have reported similar issues with ProMags. I think I will only buy Bersa mags from this point forward.
Thank you for an honest and well thought reply.

Marlin Hunter
09-28-2011, 4:26 PM
I'm getting the itch for another pistol and I'm thinking about getting another pistol..
Right now I have a H&K USP 40 and love the gun, but want something small too.

I have been tossing around the idea of a .380 for the size of most of the guns. I like the S&W .380 body guard, Ruger LCP 380 and the Taurus 380 MILLENNIUM.

I also have a friend with a barely used Kahr P9 he will sell me for $300.00.

Thoughts ???

You said 9mm or 380.

Have you priced 380 ammo?

380 pistols are usually straight blow back operated. 9mm pistols are usually short recoil (drop barrel) operated. If you want the smallest and somewhat effective pistol, 380 will be your only choice. It is slightly less effective than a 38 special, unless you buy special defense ammo, but the 38 is not as slim. some may disagree with that statement.

stix213
09-28-2011, 4:30 PM
I have owned one. And it turns out with the right holster, I can conceal my p89 in my ordinary street clothing almost as well. That's a full size, metal frame gun. I am sure the same will be true when my supertuck arrives for my new XD. Maybe not in small shorts and a tight t-shirt, or in as many places, but it's completely concealable in what I would ordinarily wear on a work day, or in a pair of baggy cargo shorts and a camp shirt during the summer, and a lot more effective.

Not that I get the chance much sadly, since I live in LA County.

I never could shoot a tiny pistol very well, other than the .38 Bodyguard revolver I also owned, and that hurt my hand to shoot. And I have tiny hands.

There are plenty of nice, small 9mm's out there if you want a compact that are more easily shootable than an LCP or any other .380. The ammo is cheaper and more widely available, most of the 9mm's have better options for aftermarket additions and extensions, etc. In my opinion the subcompact 9's have shown themselves to be more reliable than the tiny .380's as well.

I stand by my statement. I know some of you are fans of .380 but I wouldn't recommend one to anyone who asked me, anyway.

If you must have a very small gun for whatever reason, I would get a .38 +p snubnose revolver all day long before a .380. You can use it's ammo in a larger .357 if you have one, it's smaller than most anything else, the ammo is cheaper than .380 and more easily reloadable (and shares a die with .357) if you want to go that direction. I think it's more reliable than virtually any .380 I've seen as well.

I wasn't saying that a .380 is better than 9mm for concealed carry. There are certainly lots of good 9mm carry options today. The slim lightweight 9mm options available right now can beat .380 on many points. My point though is just that a small .380 like an LCP is certainly potentially easier to conceal than even the smallest/lightest 9mm out (again even though the 9mm may very well be the better choice).

Serafino
09-28-2011, 4:47 PM
P9 is a great little gun, and if you want something more concealable at that price you can always cut off the bottom of the grip so it will take PM9 mags and have the best of both worlds (P9 ‘Covert’ like Kahr used to make). I did this recently and am very happy with the results.

Tarn_Helm
09-28-2011, 4:58 PM
I'm getting the itch for another pistol and I'm thinking about getting another pistol..
Right now I have a H&K USP 40 and love the gun, but want something small too.

I have been tossing around the idea of a .380 for the size of most of the guns. I like the S&W .380 body guard, Ruger LCP 380 and the Taurus 380 MILLENNIUM.

I also have a friend with a barely used Kahr P9 he will sell me for $300.00.

Thoughts ???

.380 works, if you know what ammo to run through it.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

.380 Auto +P Ammo - 100 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 294 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box

.380 Auto +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo
SKU: 27A/20
List Price: $26.53 Our Price: $24.12
Your Savings: $2.41

Sturnovik
09-28-2011, 5:33 PM
I have had 2 FTF's in the 4 years I have owned mine. Both were WWB out of a ProMag magazine. Other than this, the gun feeds everything. For defensive use, I keep it loaded with Cor-Bon DPX 90 grain JHP's or Remington Golden Sabre 102 Grain JHP's.
Several Bersa owners have reported similar issues with ProMags. I think I will only buy Bersa mags from this point forward.
Thank you for an honest and well thought reply.

No problem at all, I honestly forgot about that pistol, thank you for reminding me budd!:)

I guess the ones I got to try were just some lemons, but either way, yea pro mag I find makes an ok range mag. But mecgar, glock or factory oem magazines are as good as it gets when buying a new handgun.

Sunday
09-28-2011, 5:45 PM
I have a PM7 that works really good and is accurate. My favorite to carry is a Smith 442 . It disappears in my front pocket and is with me pretty much 24/7.

bombadillo
09-28-2011, 8:54 PM
My argument for what there taccity? I was unaware I was creating an argument.
Most training schools? There are certainly recommendations from schools on what to use in cartridge, but can you cite one that says "No to .380 because of the cartridge" vs no because those handguns typically come in very small sizes?
So, what schools are you talking about. And how do you know this is their policy?
Who considers it not enough a "defensive" round? Gun magazines?

If you felt my argument was about the cartridge itself, then I should have made myself more clear for you, or others.
Clearly 9mm based only on a direct comparison between the two cartidges is considered to be more effective. I would not argue that.
The one factor that has the greatest impact on being effective in the defensive use of a handgun is accuracy. The application of that cartridge/handgun to that threat.
That alone is such a big factor, but not as great as you have to be armed with a handgun to be able to defend yourself with one.
So, have to have one on you, and you have to apply it with some degree of accuracy to be effective.
If the only thing that had the biggest impact was the size of the bullet, and all other things being equal, then yes bigger would be better.
It is unfortunate, that bigger almost always means more reaction for action.

They both are sooo important, that it's my opinion they both deserve way more consideration then what cartidge this or that one fires.
That was my point.
To discount 380 only because 9mm is better, takes nothing into account of options in .380 that could allow for that to be the handgun you carry most.


I'm not sure where you're going with this. The only thing I gathered out of that is that shot placement trumps all and that is always going to be the case. If a person is wearing heavy clothing, just a big guy in general, or shooting through something like a door or otherwise, I'd rather have a 9mm+P or a .38sp+P ANY day over ANY .380acp round. It just doesn't have the kinetic energy that the others can have. Revolvers and 9mm's can tend to run really hot loads these days and these small defense guns are built for it. The .380's don't really hold much more ammo if any, so other than just strictly for size alone why would you go for a round that A.) Cost WAY more than 9mm or .38sp, and B.) Isn't as effective a cartridge in a defense situation? It makes no sense. Are you saying the recoil is going to make you a worse shot because its more potent or what is it that you're going for here.

As always, shot placement trumps all. I'd rather shoot somebody in the head with a .22lr than a .44mag to the leg most times. (with the exception of the femoral artery)

Bigger rounds moving faster leave bigger holes and more damage to human tissue, and that is not debatable.

Smaller guns are typically harder to control than a larger gun

ANY gun you buy for self defense, you should train with to the best of your ability to comfortably make center of mass and head shots with regularly, repeatably, and consistently before making it a carry gun.


I know you talked about the NAA .22lr and that for me is MUCH harder to shoot well than a little subcompact 9mm or J-Frame any day of the week. The FN 5.7x28 is a great little round for piercing, but I also wouldn't want to use it as a "stopping" type of gun. They just don't have the expansion and shock that a quality hollow point 9mm or .38 round has.

Just my .02

Matt P
09-28-2011, 10:17 PM
I'm not sure where you're going with this. .
Much like how I feel with your response.
Heavy clothing, a door and other things? I would rather use a rifle then the handguns you suggest.
My point was that there were suggestions that .380 was not considered as being effective in a defensive situation, and thus did not deserve consideration for the poster.
Unless you shot someone wearing heavy clothing, a big guy, or through a door and it did not stop that individual, then you have no idea if it will or will not work to stop someone.

In those situations, there are so many other factors then merely what cartridge you are shooting and how effective it is.

Do you carry concealed, do you have a permit? How long have you carried concealed for?
What is the handgun you DO carry concealed?
How often do you carry it?
Just because you and others feel certain cartridges would never be a consideration for your defensive carry, does not mean they may be the perfect cartridge in the perfect sized/shaped handgun for someone else.
Size, model, features, manufacture and cartridge all deserve consideration.

Reading do not buy a .380 because its not as effective in threat management as 9mm should not be a main reason not to consider it.
I saw that suggested, thus my efforts to encourage other considerations.

My NAA is .22 mag. If I have pants on, I have that gun with me.
As it was when we went on our walk this morning, along with being in my pocket when I worked out at the gym. I use free weight, no cardio at gym.
It is the perfect handgun for me because it is always with me.
How I carry it, few others would work as well as this.
Lastly what made it soooo easy to choose it, is I also factor in all the times I have been close to shooting someone......Hmmm.. None.
Pointing at someone? A few, but in LE only.
You seem well versed on issues as they relate to self defense dillo, I would think you could agree 9 out of 10 times mere presentation will be enough to de-escalate.
Heck, how many time have you pointed your handgun at someone other then for work?
There are hundreds of other guns better then my little .22 mag. But then I could not carry them as easily as I do the .22 mag. Thus, I would fail at the most important issue of handguns and being effective.

Not having one when I need it the most.

bombadillo
09-28-2011, 10:32 PM
Reading do not buy a .380 because its not as effective in threat management as 9mm should not be a main reason not to consider it.
I saw that suggested, thus my efforts to encourage other considerations.

I only disagree on this because I think that caliber should play a huge factor on what you should pick as a defensive weapon period. If I can conceal a 9mm or a .380 equally well, I'm going to choose the 9mm due to better ammo options, and a much more potent round period. There are some great carry guns out there chambered in .380 but if there is something similar in size, weight, or any resembling features, I'd go with the bigger caliber any day of the week.

You seem well versed on issues as they relate to self defense dillo, I would think you could agree 9 out of 10 times mere presentation will be enough to de-escalate.

Absolutely agreed!


Heck, how many time have you pointed your handgun at someone other then for work?

Only once. I drew and they backed off right quick. I was an ordinary citizen and it was a 5 on 2 event with weapons involved. That was all it took was a draw of an XD9SC and people backed right off. No I'm not LEO either.


...

Colt-45
09-28-2011, 10:40 PM
I'd never buy a .380. You can get a 9mm that's just as easy to conceal, and has a much better round.

This about sums it all up.

Boristheblade
09-29-2011, 6:39 AM
Thanks for the additional info guys. I think when I get a chance I need to go handle some revolvers and other semi's.
I can see the trigger on a revolver slowing me down in the beginning since my other handgun is a semi, but with time I could get used to it.

Matt P
09-29-2011, 9:20 AM
Bom, that was well written.
I can only assume you do not have a permit.
I have carried a handgun on my person for at least 20 years. I own a variety of them. To include a Mustang, along with a Beretta 25, and I still carry the NAA .22 mag.
When you carry that much, you will learn a thing or two what makes for an effective handgun.
I have learned due to my actual use of carrying concealed, that there are just more things to consider then carrying what you think is the least in a self defense cartridge.
Even in your situation, a derringer may have been enough to get the same effect, or end result.
The only thing one can say from your own hands on, was that a handgun was shown and the problem stopped.
Your own example proved my point.
You had to have a handgun on you at that time to stop that.
Your cartridge selection had nothing to do with it.

Sometimes due to what we choose for a concealed carry handgun and being consumed with cartridge choice, can mean not having it when you may need it. Simply because it's too this or that, and we cannot easily get it on our body as frequently as we like.

You certainly can suggest in your opinion this gun and this cartridge.
Unless you have carried them, shot them, used them in self defense, what really is your perspective coming from on this topic?
What is your background that should cause any of us to take notice at what you suggest?

My perspective is from someone who truly has grown to embrace the value of its way, way more important to have on you then any other consideration. More so based on over 20 plus years of carrying.
Oh, and I often carry 2 guns on me, along with a flashlight. I should mention the 5.7 has a streamlight TLR-2 on it also, in a holster I made myself.
I offer that as an example because I consider myself to be pretty plugged in with what is happening in the training world, use of force world, and so many other factors as it relates to firearms.
My students/clients/friends deserve the very best info in how to be properly prepared.

Most times, you just will forgo carrying concealed when you try to carry what you feel is the BEST self defense cartridge.

Briancnelson
09-29-2011, 9:24 AM
Actually, the point is, you can conceal just as easily a gun that has a better cartridge.

Why would you bother getting an inferior gun with more expensive ammo when you can have a 9mm with fractionally larger dimensions that shoots cheaper, better ammo more reliably than almost any .380 on the market?

Sure, you want to not have guns you won't carry, I get that, but that still does nothing to address the issue of buying an inferior gun for similar money.

Choosing a gun on the principle of "it's just a tiny bit smaller, and boy, I'll only have to flash it at someone probably" is going to really suck when you have to use it.

Especially if the guy is wearing, say, a thick leather jacket that stops your crummy .380.

Matt P
09-29-2011, 10:16 AM
Do you have a permit brian?
How long have you carried for?
Choosing a gun on the principle of "it's just a tiny bit smaller, and boy, I'll only have to flash it at someone probably" is going to really suck when you have to use it.
How many times have you been in that situation and had to use it?
I have been robbed by knife point once, and robbed by force once. Both times I was not armed.
Both of those situations would have been adverted by showing any handgun.
Have you shot through a thick leather jacket with 380 and 9mm?

Why use examples in this situation to establish your point, that you very well may have no experience with?

Briancnelson
09-29-2011, 10:55 AM
Do you have a permit brian?
How long have you carried for?

How many times have you been in that situation and had to use it?
I have been robbed by knife point once, and robbed by force once. Both times I was not armed.
Both of those situations would have been adverted by showing any handgun.
Have you shot through a thick leather jacket with 380 and 9mm?

Why use examples in this situation to establish your point, that you very well may have no experience with?

Ahh the classic argument of someone who has nothing to rebut facts. "I have so and so credential and so I get to make up my own facts".

Whether or not I have a permit has nothing to do with the questions I just asked you, and it's a lame rhetorical excuse. Having one doesn't make your argument immune to logic.

People with CCW permits do sometimes have to do more than flash their guns, they have to use them. That's just factual. Google is your friend.

Statistics and ballistic tests show that a thick cover garment can dissipate most of the force of a .380. Ask the FBI, ask anyone who has ever done any ballistic testing at all. Penetration matters. This is not even a debatable fact.

Documented testing and the experience of everyone who has ever owned a .380 pistol (and I own, and have owned several, just for fun) shows that they are demonstrably less reliable than many major 9mm subcompacts (I formerly owned one of these as well).

Simple Google-fu shows that the ammo is more expensive than 9mm.

Simple Google-fu, or in my case actually measuring the guns, shows that the subcompact 9mm is only a tiny bit larger than the Bersa .380 I once owned. Certainly not enough to print even in summer clothing if I bother to take any effort to conceal it. Easily small enough to carry daily.

Not a single fact just referenced here requires a permit to have knowledge of it. You having a permit doesn't make it any less true.

Please don't act like you can ignore facts just because you have a CCW, it doesn't make you God, it's not an internet I win button. it just means you can carry a gun. I'd have one too, except I live in LA, and I'm not rich or famous so there's little point in applying.

Mofo-Kang
09-29-2011, 11:18 AM
.380 was considered adequate for most police in Europe for most of the 20th century. It'll get the job done. It seems from reading this like many people have fallen into the "X is better than Y, therefore Y is useless" way of thinking.

And I love how these discussions always seem to degenerate to the ridiculous. I'd love to see the leather jacket that will stop a .380 at self-defense ranges.

That said, if you want to feel that .380 is tiny, just spend a few minutes loading 180 grain .40 into mags before loading some .380s, as I found out last night! lol

Briancnelson
09-29-2011, 11:25 AM
Sure, and smoking was considered healthy during more than half of the last century, and in the century before that European doctors recommended bloodletting and claimed most women were subject to fits of hysteria.

Progress is a good thing.

It won't stop it. I didn't say it would stop it. Again, reading comprehension is your friend. It isn't a bulletproof vest. But it will diminish its penetration sufficiently to keep it from doing sufficient damage to your target to stop him.

A 9mm has a much better chance of continuing through the cover garment, into flesh with sufficient force to fragment properly and cause a bigger wound.

This is ballistics 101 stuff. It's all over available for free, just look it up. You don't have to believe me.

Hell if you are one of those folks who has to see it to believe it, toss a Goodwill thick leather jacket over cube of ballistic gel and go shoot it with your .380, then a 9mm, watch what happens to the bullets.

It all boils down to one basic question, which is why would you choose a gun which gives you no useful concealability advantage and shoots an inferior, more expensive round, over the 9mm, given a choice of guns? oh and many .380's are as or more expensive than the comparable 9mm subcompact? How anyone can give that advice with a straight face indicates to me it's more a faith based belief than one based in logic.

InGrAM
09-29-2011, 11:34 AM
Sure, and smoking was considered healthy during more than half of the last century, and in the century before that European doctors recommended bloodletting and claimed most women were subject to fits of hysteria.

Progress is a good thing.

It won't stop it. I didn't say it would stop it. Again, reading comprehension is your friend. It isn't a bulletproof vest. But it will diminish its penetration sufficiently to keep it from doing sufficient damage to your target to stop him.

A 9mm has a much better chance of continuing through the cover garment, into flesh with sufficient force to fragment properly and cause a bigger wound.

This is ballistics 101 stuff. It's all over available for free, just look it up. You don't have to believe me.

Hell if you are one of those folks who has to see it to believe it, toss a Goodwill thick leather jacket over cube of ballistic gel and go shoot it with your .380, then a 9mm, watch what happens to the bullets.


Not trying to flame but I will spark this. I wasn't aware that anyone wore thick leather jackets anymore? NTM, why would you carry a .380 in the winter time? You wouldn't. So, there fore, that argument is no longer rational. A small .380 handgun, is for summer clothes and summer carry. It gets hot here in parts of CA and that is the only time I would even consider carrying a firearm of that size. In the colder climate it would not matter. Just argument that was not placed out so far ;) lol

Briancnelson
09-29-2011, 5:04 PM
Ok, so the guy rides a motorcycle and he's wearing a motorcycle protective jacket and a helmet. I use this example because there have been armed robberies in the LA area with this exact MO. During warm weather. Saw one on the news just the other day.

Same problem, thick outer garment and you are carrying a .380. It's not leather but it will have the same effect on ballistics.

Low probability? Perhaps, but you are carrying for a low probability event in the first place. Odds are you will never be molested or mugged or robbed. Odds are you will never witness a robbery.

Why would you carry an inferior gun when you can carry an almost identically sized gun with a better round, for less money? I don't see any rational argument for it.

InGrAM
09-29-2011, 5:36 PM
Ok, so the guy rides a motorcycle and he's wearing a motorcycle protective jacket and a helmet. I use this example because there have been armed robberies in the LA area with this exact MO. During warm weather. Saw one on the news just the other day.

Same problem, thick outer garment and you are carrying a .380. It's not leather but it will have the same effect on ballistics.

Low probability? Perhaps, but you are carrying for a low probability event in the first place. Odds are you will never be molested or mugged or robbed. Odds are you will never witness a robbery.

Why would you carry an inferior gun when you can carry an almost identically sized gun with a better round, for less money? I don't see any rational argument for it.

Unless you are carrying a Colt mustang and you just want to feel cool :rolleyes:

nrgcruizer
09-29-2011, 6:12 PM
I'm in the same boat as you. I was looking at Bersa 380s, Kahr, & Diamondbacks. But I decided against the .380 after seeing how much it cost for ammunition.

I'm going to stick with the 9mm. Ammo is abundant. It's cheaper bulk or per box. It'll give me more trigger time on the range. I'd pick up that Kahr if I were you. Or you can tell your friend I'm very interested and PM me his info. :43:

bombadillo
09-29-2011, 8:59 PM
Bom, that was well written.
I can only assume you do not have a permit.
I have carried a handgun on my person for at least 20 years. I own a variety of them. To include a Mustang, along with a Beretta 25, and I still carry the NAA .22 mag.
When you carry that much, you will learn a thing or two what makes for an effective handgun.
I have learned due to my actual use of carrying concealed, that there are just more things to consider then carrying what you think is the least in a self defense cartridge.
Even in your situation, a derringer may have been enough to get the same effect, or end result.
The only thing one can say from your own hands on, was that a handgun was shown and the problem stopped.
Your own example proved my point.
You had to have a handgun on you at that time to stop that.
Your cartridge selection had nothing to do with it.

Sometimes due to what we choose for a concealed carry handgun and being consumed with cartridge choice, can mean not having it when you may need it. Simply because it's too this or that, and we cannot easily get it on our body as frequently as we like.

You certainly can suggest in your opinion this gun and this cartridge.
Unless you have carried them, shot them, used them in self defense, what really is your perspective coming from on this topic?
What is your background that should cause any of us to take notice at what you suggest?

My perspective is from someone who truly has grown to embrace the value of its way, way more important to have on you then any other consideration. More so based on over 20 plus years of carrying.
Oh, and I often carry 2 guns on me, along with a flashlight. I should mention the 5.7 has a streamlight TLR-2 on it also, in a holster I made myself.
I offer that as an example because I consider myself to be pretty plugged in with what is happening in the training world, use of force world, and so many other factors as it relates to firearms.
My students/clients/friends deserve the very best info in how to be properly prepared.

Most times, you just will forgo carrying concealed when you try to carry what you feel is the BEST self defense cartridge.


I completely understand what you are saying and I'm not sure why you would or wouldn't think I have a carry permit. Kind of an odd question to ask on a gun board. Yes I carry legally, and a gun has stopped a potentially life threatening situation. What caliber was of no importance and who knows, if I had a .22lr NAA, who knows they may have laughed it off. If I had a .500 smith, they may have all crapped themselves. Caliber at that point was of no importance because I had a gun that I was proficient with and had plenty of capacity. If I had to shoot a guy 4 or 5 times with a .22 revolver, and only had 2 shots left and there were 4 guys still coming after me, we'd have a problem. If I had a 9mm with 8-10 rounds or more, I could have used one round potentially to put someone down. (I know the same thing can be said about placement and a .22lr, but thats another argument) The thing is a larger round has more kinetic energy, period. I would rather have more energy and ft. lbs. of energy hitting somebody, with a better expanding bullet that retains its weight while passing through flesh.

To simplify, which one would you want to get hit in the leg with, a .22lr HP or a 9mm Winchester Talon??? I know what one I would.

I haven't been carrying as long as you have, but still know my limitations with firearms and what I'm capable of and I'll always choose a 9mm over a .380 any day of the week just because of "stopping power." There is a reason guys hunt with a .454 and a .460SW and a .500SW over a .357mag, .41mag, or smaller rounds for bear. Same concept with humans. You wouldn't bring out a .38 special for a black bear so why would you bring a .22lr to a gun fight.

Matt P
09-29-2011, 9:27 PM
Ahh the classic argument of someone who has nothing to rebut facts. "I have so and so credential and so I get to make up my own facts".
Amazing you would type this.
I guess brian you are the expert. Yes, I know you do not have a ccw, and you can use the vast resources of the internet to support your opinions. Heck, when you have that, who needs actual experience?

Richard Erichsen
09-29-2011, 9:49 PM
I'd never buy a .380. You can get a 9mm that's just as easy to conceal, and has a much better round.

+1 on size/weight being all but equiv. There was a time when the .380 were generally more compact, but that changed over 10 years ago.

luckygunner
09-29-2011, 10:22 PM
Unless your going to carry it I would go with the 9mm. Much cheaper to shoot and it's a more powerful round with a wider variety of firearms available for it.

I'm a big fan of the 9mm in general.

__________________
9mm ammo (http://www.luckygunner.com/handgun/9mm-ammo)

mtwelve
09-29-2011, 10:24 PM
The sad truth is that regardless of caliber a sharp assailant with a piece of sprinkler pipe will walk off with your 380/9/40 while it it is still in the waistband of your gym shorts.:rolleyes:

Matt P
09-29-2011, 10:27 PM
Bom I asked that because once you become dedicated to carrying, you may/will after some time discover limitations with what you thought was the perfect handgun.
I did not start with what I carry now.
My sense of what makes for the perfect carry handgun for me has evolved over all those years.
So, in a effort to discover more information as it relates to self defense with a handgun, I simply talked with as many individuals as I could through my early employment in LE, post rangemaster, along with owning a gun shop which dealt mostly only with Military/LE, to becoming certified in concealed carry instruction, attendence in firearm related schools and on and on. In fact just today I had a very long discussion with an SO Deputy on the events of his use of lethal force on a man who had stabbed his (offender) father to death. He is not the first cop I have talked to in length about having been involved in a lethal use of force event.
My point is that I have come to my opinion on all the above. Without all of that, my opinion would be based much more on what I read, or this guy told me so.

Keep in mind bom I have never said that 380 is better then 9mm.

As for the laughing issue about a 22. Would you laugh off a .22 pointed at you?
Why make bad guys more impressive then they actually are? Again, I have worked around them, arrested them, booked them, transported them and on and on. I have never met a subject in LE work so bad, he would laugh at a 22. pointed at him.
But, how would you know that? ................. Again, I know this because of working in that field. That experience thing brian thinks is my crutch.
You assume things about criminals and their behaviors that comes from what either seen on TV, read, or been told.
Have you ever had any handgun pointed at you? Would you be more affected if it was a S&W 500? Just using that as an example really shows how much you do not know bom. No insult meant with that.
I will stop with that............

The most important thing bom reading on the internet and magazines do not make you or anyone else any kind of an authority on what you feel are the choices for anyone to carry and why.


9mm is a wonderful defensive choice, but not so much better then .380 to null and void that series.


Oh, and its yours and brians lack of experience that allows for you to think cartridge is the most important issue.

Dueces...

bombadillo
09-29-2011, 10:50 PM
But, how would you know that? ................. Again, I know this because of working in that field. That experience thing brian thinks is my crutch.
You assume things about criminals and their behaviors that comes from what either seen on TV, read, or been told. [/B]

Absolutely not. I am not assuming anything because of what I've read or been seeing on television. I've studied enough from active duty police officers, military personnel, and others who are CLOSE friends on duty and in the line of fire. Nothing I've said is coming out of my ***. Its coming from many others experience that they've learned that I put to good use.
Have you ever had any handgun pointed at you? Would you be more affected if it was a S&W 500? Just using that as an example really shows how much you do not know bom. No insult meant with that.
I will stop with that............

Yes I have. I've had 3 guns pointed at me actually, from 2 handguns which I didn't stick around long enough for me to find out the caliber, and a 12ga shotgun. Yes, the shotgun was the worst because it had the largest bore and I knew the potential hole it could put in me. I'm not ignorant and you seem to think you know everything about all aspects of shooting and others intentions just because you've been LEO. I've done a handful of training right alongside LEO and have too many friends active and studied enough to understand people, behavioral issues, and how criminals act in certain situations so don't speak in any condescending manner because you feel like you've been there, done that. YES I have had guns pointed at me. Have you...

The most important thing bom reading on the internet and magazines do not make you or anyone else any kind of an authority on what you feel are the choices for anyone to carry and why.

And finally, I'm not reading on the internet or magazines. I've been living life and studying from mistakes of my colleagues and friends in law enforcement and the military.

9mm is a wonderful defensive choice, but not so much better then .380 to null and void that series.

Dueces...


...

pyromensch
09-29-2011, 11:02 PM
If it is for CC then pick whatever you can conceal and will conceal EVERYDAY, which means whatever is most comfortable for you. If it is not for CC, then get whatever you want to have fun with. .380's can be really fun to shoot. I have a mustang plus II and it is a fantastic .380.

just as was mentioned. it is not for the "cheapnest" of the ammo, because (hopefully), you won't you cheap ammo for SD.

you honestly need to practice "alot" for competetion. you need to find a reliable, and relatively accurate ammuniton, for self defense, because the distances, won't be "target shooting" range.

bsg
09-29-2011, 11:14 PM
the G26 is my selection for a subcompact semi auto.

LDSGJimbo
09-29-2011, 11:32 PM
+ 1 on a snub nose. Otherwise a ruger 9mm

Sent from my motorola with tapatalk.

loose_electron
09-29-2011, 11:57 PM
Chill guys, its a discussion, not a political power struggle.
I come to forums to discuss and share ideas, thats great.
I alos love to get knowledge in these discussions from people
with experience and the knowledge they get from that experience.

We can all learn from each other if we all are willing to listen
with an open mind.

Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge, experience and opinions.

stix213
09-30-2011, 1:03 AM
I think the .380 vs 9mm argument for carry often misses the point. What's really important is:

1) Carry 100% of the time legalities allow
2) Carry the best cartridge you can while never violating #1

If you never once put on shorts and a Tshirt, and decide you can just leave your 9mm at home cause you're "just making a quick run to the store," then you've made a good choice. If you even occasionally leave your gun behind then you failed choosing the right gun for yourself. Caliber choice is meaningless if you're unarmed.

Its not that much more complicated than that. Its really a personal choice, and not a blanket X > Y decision. If you'll carry a .380 100% of the time, while a 9mm only in the 90% range, then you should really get yourself a .380. If you'd carry either 100% of the time, then you should carry a 9mm.

Briancnelson
09-30-2011, 7:42 AM
Amazing you would type this.
I guess brian you are the expert. Yes, I know you do not have a ccw, and you can use the vast resources of the internet to support your opinions. Heck, when you have that, who needs actual experience?

When "experience" leads to to just invent or ignore facts, I guess noone does.

You get to have your own opinions based on experience, not your own facts.

Your key advice so far has been "carry whatever, whether it is reliable or not, because all you'll ever have to do is pull it out and they will run away". I have enough cops in the family, and enough ability to read news, to know that this is terrible advice. And I've done enough defensive training to tell you that none of the instructors I learned from would agree with it.

If your experience gives you some good logical reason why you wouldn't want to carry a better gun in the same size with a better round, or you have some actual factual statistical backup for that, I'd love to see it.
Instead, all I see from you when I or others post is "you couldn't possibly understand, because I am a credentialed elite with a CCW, and therefore my word is law". Which is of course nonsense. It means you passed a short course on defensive handgun use and accurately shot a few targets, and THAT'S IT. Many of us have been in situations where we were shot at or a gun aimed at us. I have been, for sure. It doesn't give you any special insight into firearms use, other than a strong urge to own one next time.

The only thing you've said I can agree with is that you want to own a firearm you'll carry daily, no matter what clothing you are wearing. Beyond that, you need to justify to me why you'd want a less reliable, less powerful, more expensive weapon for that task when there are equally good ones in 9mm. If you can't, then your experience is worth bupkiss.

Anyway, I have nothing useful further to say on the actual subject, so I'll depart having said that.

BayouBullets
09-30-2011, 5:06 PM
I personally would rather carry 9mm than 380. I have yet to find a 380 more concealable than the smaller 9's that I can actually shoot well. I wouldn't hesitate to use a 380 for self-defense otherwise, but given the same size and capacity, I'd go with the more powerful cartridge. A Makarov works for me just fine too. I've never found a 380 smaller than a mak that I can shoot nearly as accurately. You may find it more difficult to get ammo, but if you load your own, the Mak will safely handle Hornady JHP's loaded to velocity comparable to standard NATO 9mm rounds (1150 fps range). Just remember to go up on the recoil spring weight commensurately with the extent of the loading. That hot, I'd probably go with a 21# recoil spring. I like the 19# with Hornady factory 9x18's. Those are my first choice in SD rounds already loaded by the factory. Don't hate me all you Barnaul/Tula fans. LOL.

Mofo-Kang
10-01-2011, 12:15 AM
Sure, and smoking was considered healthy during more than half of the last century, and in the century before that European doctors recommended bloodletting and claimed most women were subject to fits of hysteria.

Yes, and that's not quite the same thing, is it?


It won't stop it. I didn't say it would stop it. Again, reading comprehension is your friend. It isn't a bulletproof vest. But it will diminish its penetration sufficiently to keep it from doing sufficient damage to your target to stop him.

I would be very surprised if any leather jacket worn by real people in the real world could make a significant difference at self-defense ranges.


A 9mm has a much better chance of continuing through the cover garment, into flesh with sufficient force to fragment properly and cause a bigger wound.

This is ballistics 101 stuff. It's all over available for free, just look it up. You don't have to believe me.

I don't have to look it up, nor do I have to believe you, since I know it very well myself. I'm not arguing that .380 is better in any way at all. I'm saying that the fact that 9mm is a better performer doesn't mean that .380 is a worthless one.


It all boils down to one basic question, which is why would you choose a gun which gives you no useful concealability advantage and shoots an inferior, more expensive round, over the 9mm, given a choice of guns? oh and many .380's are as or more expensive than the comparable 9mm subcompact? How anyone can give that advice with a straight face indicates to me it's more a faith based belief than one based in logic.

Maybe they just like the .380 they have better than the 9s they've tried?