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Inquirer
09-27-2011, 2:05 AM
Hey Guys,

Went out to the range the other day to test out a few handguns and narrow down the field of contenders. The range I went to didn't have any kind of flat rate rentals so I didn't get a chance to shoot all my options, but I did get to shoot the Glock 17, the CZ 75, the Baby Eagle/Jericho 941 and the Sig X5.

That said, let me go from worst to best.

The X5 jammed twice in two magazines. FTFs on both counts. Screw that gun.
The Glock felt really solid, but I shot like **** with it.
The CZ75 felt good and I was hitting center mass with rapid mag dumps every time.
The Baby Eagle [i]felt[i] the best in my hand, but I couldn't really tell if I was shooting any better with it than the CZ75.

That said, the guys at the range warned me that the Baby Eagle isn't available anymore (which from what I read isn't entirely true) and that parts are way harder to find for it than the CZ 75. I think I'd be happy with both, but in addition to the aesthetics of the Baby Eagle (best looking gun ever IMO), the ergonomics are outstanding. So is the Baby Eagle feasible in CA, or at all? Or should I just get a CZ? I also felt the EAA Witness (though I didn't shoot it), and liked how much the beavertail extended. Just felt very stable. Any thoughts on those?

Thanks a lot in advance.

--Inq

Hoot951
09-27-2011, 2:20 AM
The Baby Eagle and the EAA Witness are not on the roster so the only way to get them is through PPT but the CZ 75 are on the roster so you can easily go buy them at a local gun store. You could keep checking the firearm for sale section and wait til one pops up they usually do. I myself have a Witness for sale but im in So Cal.

RollingCode3
09-27-2011, 2:22 AM
CZ or Glock = good choice.... you can't go wrong

By the way, it is called MAGAZINE

tacticalcity
09-27-2011, 2:22 AM
Try a 1911 before you buy. Glocks and 1911s are great guns to learn on. You'll find plinking on the range is not always the best way to figure out what gun is best for you when you're new. Because you don't know what you're doing yet. That's not an insult. None of us did at first.

I recommend you take a professional defensive handgun course. See the Competition, Action Shooting and Training Section here on Calguns. Odds are there is school in your backyard. The bigger schools rent guns. The smaller ones don't. All will let you bring your own gun. Besure to read the course description and required gear and and amount of ammo needed.

There is a lot to shooting a handgun you are never going to learn plinking on the range with your buddies. A course will give you a nice foundation to build on. Every range trip there after will be about becoming a better shooter and having fun at the same time. When you get sloppy, you'll know how to diagnose and fix the problem. You'll be safe, accurate, efficient, and an example to others. Mostly though, you'll just enjoy the heck out of the course and leave a better shooter than you thought possible. Most fun you can have with your pants on.

davbog44
09-27-2011, 4:14 AM
A lot depends on what your intended use (or uses) for the gun are. The SIG for example, is really designed to be more of a race gun and really isn't in the same category as the other three, which are more duty / carry / home defense type pistols.

Glocks for sure are built to take a lickin' and keep on tickin' but you will need to figure out if the accuracy issues you had are due to unfamiliarity, or the Glock's grip angle. Some people just never learn to like / get along with it.

The CZ's are excellent, and you won't go wrong if you go that route.

BTW, semi automatic pistols use magazines, not clips.

morrcarr67
09-27-2011, 6:50 AM
The Baby Eagle and the EAA Witness are not on the roster so the only way to get them is through PPT but the CZ 75 are on the roster so you can easily go buy them at a local gun store. You could keep checking the firearm for sale section and wait til one pops up they usually do. I myself have a Witness for sale but im in So Cal.

Not true. These guns are easily had via the SSE.

Don't know what the SSE is? Read these:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=383692

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=441766

esartori
09-27-2011, 8:35 AM
I'd say cz or glock are your best bets. If u like the cz-75, take a look at the sp-01 as well.

dascoyne
09-27-2011, 9:39 AM
http://www.hausofguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/clipsvsmags.jpg

Bug Splat
09-27-2011, 10:01 AM
I say go CZ. Its a solid pistol for a good price.

Briancnelson
09-27-2011, 10:18 AM
Of the ones you've named, if you have your heart set on those, I'd choose the CZ.

Might try an XD and an M&P though. There are people who like both of those a lot.

MrExel17
09-27-2011, 11:10 AM
From thoughs choices I would pick CZ 75 good solid gun. I agree with (esartori) check out the SPO1 awesome gun. If I can recommend also the Single Action trigger too, the SPO1 does not have them out of the box but the 75B does your choice of .9 or .40 I have the .40 and man I sure love it a lot.

Head416
09-27-2011, 1:20 PM
I own a Baby Eagle, and it does feel great in my hand.

I wish I had gotten a CZ-75 instead.

JoeinLA
09-27-2011, 1:36 PM
CZ or Glock in 9mm. Or a good 1911.

Though my personal recommendation for a new shooter is a .22 pistol. I went the other route, and wish I had gotten a .22 first. They're cheap, and even cheaper to shoot, and they won't give you "bad habits" that a larger caliber will (i.e., anticipating recoil). And once you're comfortable with the .22, you'll have learned a bunch and will have a much better idea of what you want in your "real" gun.

Or just get a Glock or CZ in 9mm, or a good 1911. You won't go wrong with any of those 3 choices, and no matter what, you'll probably end up with all three eventually.

Also, your tastes and what you think makes a handgun "good" will change and evolve. The CZ, Glock, and 1911 are very, very well respected guns, so at the very least you know you're not buying something that most people wouldn't spend their money on.

Just my $0.02. I'm not firearms expert, just giving my personal, un-expert, opinion.

goldengate
09-27-2011, 1:38 PM
I had a CZ75b. Excellent gun, but I have to sell it. Once money start flowing again, I am looking at a Sp-01. Shot one at the range and I like it slightly better than the B model because of the tritium sights and beaver tail.

NytWolf
09-27-2011, 2:46 PM
From the list, I would go CZ-75B also. But given more money, I would also go the SP-01. Its ergonomics are better.

jessegpresley
09-27-2011, 3:05 PM
Try a 1911 before you buy. Glocks and 1911s are great guns to learn on.

Typically I don't agree with you, and this is no exception.

The 1911 is a gun for the enthusiast, not the noob or casual plinker. And I say this as a 1911 fan.

"most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. " -Larry Vickers

"The 1911 is an aficionado’s weapon, and still has a place in the modern arsenal for those who are dedicated to it." -Hilton Yam

Out of the OPs list the CZ 75 is a much better choice for the beginning shooter.

Inquirer
09-27-2011, 3:25 PM
Gents,

Thanks for the responses. That said, there are a couple points that seem to come up in many of the posts.

Take a Handgun Class
I have shot before, and a couple years ago I took a two-hour, one-on-one handgun class with a tutor. I shot the Glock, a Ruger MKIII, and my instructor's .45 1911. His verdict at the end of our two hours was he'd rather have anyone else at the range that day shooting at him than me.
Get a Glock or a 1911
I like the idea of Glocks and 1911s - anything proven and trusted gets points automatically. But for some reason or another, I shot better with all the other guns than the Glock. I may be way off base with this comment, but my belief is that if one is an inherently better shot with the ergonomics of another gun, you should go with the one you shoot best with. I do love the form factor of the 1911 (admittedly, not as much as the Baby Eagle), but I haven't shot one in 9mm yet. I don't want a .45. Too much recoil, and too expensive. Don't want to reload yet. If anybody has 9mm 1911 recommendations (that are cheap) then let me know.
Try an XD, M&P, or XXX
I was going to try all of the above, but I didn't want to spend five bucks each time, especially as I was going with a friend and didn't want to rack up our tab while he just shot one gun. Ended up spending 60 bucks, which was about as much as I felt comfortable spending. So maybe next time I will take out an XD or an M&P (both of which I held and handled), but at the end of the day I went with what felt the best in my hand, which was the ergonomics of the CZ family and the ruggedness of the Glock.


At Morrcarr: Thanks for the info about SSE - I have a friend in Texas, so would he be able to do the modification? Does it require serious gunsmithing and/or a licensed FFL holder? Thanks for the intel.

At JoeInLA: Good recommendations, and I definitely appreciate the $.02. Looking back on my performance at the range, I see what you mean about forming bad habits - namely anticipating recoil. While I was happy with the way I shot, I do remember catching myself bracing for an impending shot (especially with the Glock, which I felt to have way more recoil and muzzle intensity than any of the other pistols). Ideally I'd like to train on a gun that has the same ergonomics in both .22 and 9mm. I seem to remember EAA Witness packages that are a pretty good deal on 9mm/.22LR combo kits.

Thanks to everybody for your responses. Further suggestions on what to get would be appreciated, especially if you keep in mind my large hand size and my better performance on the CZ-style grips.

Thanks!

--Inq

junkit_boy
09-27-2011, 4:08 PM
I had the CZ p-01. Fantastic gun..wish I didn't sell that one. Either way, your first gun will definitely wont be your last.

darmog
09-27-2011, 4:31 PM
Ideally I'd like to train on a gun that has the same ergonomics in both .22 and 9mm. I seem to remember EAA Witness packages that are a pretty good deal on 9mm/.22LR combo kits.

--Inq

My current favorite handgun is the CZ P-01 which is their compact model. I've put about 1400 rounds so far thru it. I did rent the 7b and SP01 as well when I was testing out a few handguns. For me, the P0-1 felt like a more well balanced firearm in terms of weight and size compared to the SP01. With either, you can practice with your 9mm and when you just want to plink with a .22, you can just swap out the slide with a CZ Kadet kit for some .22 goodness on the same frame. Course, Glocks could do that, too, with their aftermarket kits, but if you really like the CZ family more then you're already in a good position to get the gun you want and still practice with .22s on the same trigger.

Iknownot
09-27-2011, 5:03 PM
I offer no opinion on the things you tried out, but I would like to point out that I would not base an reliability decision on any range rental.

Rental guns are about as beat on and used up a gun you will ever seen in your life.

I have rented, borrowed, tried, etc a variety of guns between people I know and range trips I have made and the only ones I have ever had problems with were the range rentals.

Just my 2 cents.

IPSICK
09-27-2011, 5:20 PM
Nobody has mentioned that the Baby Eagle and the EAA are based on the CZ75 design with some differences. So it's not a surprise those 3 worked well for you.

I'd recommend buying the CZ75 SP-01 at this point along with ammo and more training.

ZX-10R
09-27-2011, 6:48 PM
What's the budget?

Try M&P series, try FNP-9/40, try 1911, try M9/ 92, try SR9, try a lot of guns.

Then narrow it down.

Inquirer
09-27-2011, 8:07 PM
Respondents -

I already know that CZs/Eagles/Witnesses are all related. I allude to that in my posts. But yes, ergo-wise, that's what I seem to respond to. As for the Beretta 92, I don't really like it. The gun literally creeps me out. As for the FN offerings, they're too fu#king small. They feel like toys and my hand overlaps them by 3/4". As for the SR9, they feel alright but cheap. I like metal guns - they shoot straight and true and feel like they can stand the abuse. The only other guns I'd like to really get time on right now are the Witness, the M&P9, and the XD9. Oh well, next range trip. But I'd love to hear people's thoughts on the S&W, EAA, and Springfield offerings. Please, no more recommendations for a 1911 unless you're recommending a specific 9mm 1911 variant. Like I say, I have next to no interest in .45's. Too expensive, too much gun.

--Inq

InGrAM
09-27-2011, 8:10 PM
Check out a 1911. But CZ's are fantastic guns, you really cant go wrong with one just like the glock. The M&P is also a great gun, basically a glock with better ergos, I love mine.

P220
09-27-2011, 9:56 PM
Try some Modern Handguns:
-SIG P220 with beaver tail (SA/DA or SAO)
-HK USP (or you can find used HK45)
-M&P
-Glock 22/23

chrisf
09-27-2011, 10:12 PM
I know everyone is going to get on me about this BUT: I say go try out a ruger p95 and see if you like it. It being your first handgun is a good choice. Its easy on the pockets (budsgunshop.com has them for $300 free shipping) And its a great durable PROVEN handgun. Some of us in the army used them as our sidearms for a while. Hey guys before you reticle me calm down lol. I know you glock guys are coming.

CK_32
09-27-2011, 10:26 PM
CZ or Glock = good choice.... you can't go wrong

By the way, it is called MAGAZINE


This!

But I will ALWAYS!! recommend Glock over anything else due to simplicity of design and maintenance. And you can beat the crap out of it with out crying (Glocks look better with dings on them ;)) and they will run through just about any abuse.

So I say Glock. I also shot like **** but get a little more practice and maybe a 3.5 connector with a $.25 trigger job and it will amaze you trust me.

I shot a nickel size group with my 17 with 3.5 connector and night sights after a $.25 trigger job.

GuillermoAntonio
09-27-2011, 10:32 PM
Respondents -

I already know that CZs/Eagles/Witnesses are all related. I allude to that in my posts. But yes, ergo-wise, that's what I seem to respond to. As for the Beretta 92, I don't really like it. The gun literally creeps me out. As for the FN offerings, they're too fu#king small. They feel like toys and my hand overlaps them by 3/4". As for the SR9, they feel alright but cheap. I like metal guns - they shoot straight and true and feel like they can stand the abuse. The only other guns I'd like to really get time on right now are the Witness, the M&P9, and the XD9. Oh well, next range trip. But I'd love to hear people's thoughts on the S&W, EAA, and Springfield offerings. Please, no more recommendations for a 1911 unless you're recommending a specific 9mm 1911 variant. Like I say, I have next to no interest in .45's. Too expensive, too much gun.

--Inq

I chose CZ-SP01 for my first gun earlier this year, and boy, I am happy i did, I did exactly what you are doing today and lucky me, decided for the CZ, and I say lucky me, because when you are first experiencing handguns, you are not sure what to look for, so at some point in time there is somewhat of a gamble there.
I have since bought a Sig p226, p229, and shot a dozen of other brands autos, and believe me, i am happier with my CZ.
Based on the small responsiveness from you to the amount of people flat out yelling CZ to you, it seems to me you are pushing the CZ on the side, perhaps because you dont like the looks that much?
So my question is, have you seen/shot a CZ-75 SP-01?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=116361&stc=1&d=1317187875

PanaDP
09-27-2011, 10:43 PM
Honestly, knowing what I know now about handgun marksmanship I would get a ruger mkIII or 22/45 for my first handgun. You will shoot more and develop better habits without having to deal with recoil.

tacticalcity
09-28-2011, 2:54 AM
Typically I don't agree with you, and this is no exception.

The 1911 is a gun for the enthusiast, not the noob or casual plinker. And I say this as a 1911 fan.

"most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. " -Larry Vickers

"The 1911 is an aficionado’s weapon, and still has a place in the modern arsenal for those who are dedicated to it." -Hilton Yam

Out of the OPs list the CZ 75 is a much better choice for the beginning shooter.

Well, I don't know who you are. So I won't take it personally.

As for the Vickers quote, the things that require fixing like occassionally bending the extrator to adjust tension or polishing various surfaces if you want to shoot odd shaped ammo are see-spot-run stuff and are rarely required if at all. Buy the gun the way you want it and there is nothing to "fit". That was a referrance to aftermarket parts not always being drop in. So I respectful disogree with him. It is not the he is wrong, as much as it is that he is overstating things considerably.

Glocks, Glock Clones and 1911s have a single trigger pull and are easy to master. He said he didn't have a very good experience with the Glock, it stands to reason he may not have much luck with Glock clones for similar reasons - maybe not. 1911s on the other hand are very easy to shoot even for new guys without much training. The trigger pull is very light, the rest is very short, and the weight absorbs recoil very well. Its got a long barrel, long sight radius, all of which make it great for a target gun. Which most first guns are. The guy is not a cop. He doesn't need a duty weapon or "primary". He needs something that is easy to learn on. A nice long barrelled single action gun with a nice long sight picture is just that. Plus should he decide to sell it down the road, if he takes care of it, he won't loose his shirt. 1911 fever has struck and it is arguably the most desired handgun on the market right now. Used ones go for just a hair under what new ones cost.

The real solution for him is to get some training, learn how to shoot handguns and how to properly evaluate and compare them, then make a purchase based on important criteria and solid foundation. If he knows how to shoot, and what features help him shoot well, he can make an educated choice. But few people do it the smart the way.

If you find issue with any of that, I submit it is your own issue and has nothing to do with me or my advice. Next time don't call me or anybody else out like that. It is very rude, and you burn a bridge for no good reason. I don't recall ever doing anything like that to you.

Inquirer
09-28-2011, 3:45 AM
Well, I don't know who you are. So I won't take it personally.
...
The real solution for him is to get some training, learn how to shoot handguns and how to properly evaluate and compare them, then make a purchase based on important criteria and solid foundation. If he knows how to shoot, and what features help him shoot well, he can make an educated choice. But few people do it the smart the way.

If you find issue with any of that, I submit it is your own issue and has nothing to do with me or my advice. Next time don't call me or anybody else out like that. It is very rude, and you burn a bridge for no good reason. I don't recall ever doing anything like that to you.

Easy, guys, you both had relevant, informative things to say, you just disagree. That's allowed among gentlemen.

First things first - while I'm not one to underestimate the value of training, I think it's putting the cart before the horse a bit to say I should become a proficient shooter before I buy a gun. With all due respect, I think the point of buying your first gun is to learn to shoot. Then once you know what you like and don't like about it, you can sell it and get what you respond to. So the question becomes, "What's the best choice for the first pistol?"

I like the ergos of the Glock but not the way it shoots. Whether that's due in part to my lack of training, I don't know, but I know that I shot fairly well with the CZ and CZ variants - significantly better than with the Glock. If it's a question of training, I don't really understand the discrepancy. That said, I haven't yet ruled out the Glock (I appreciate the durability, the availability of parts, and the track record), and I certainly haven't ruled out any 1911 variants. The 1911's a venerable workhorse, and while the idea of having to tune it and replace crap all the time isn't appealing, I have always wanted a 1911.

I just don't know if it makes sense for me to have a 1911 as my first gun, unless my grandfather gave me some battle-scarred GI that I'd lovingly oil and learn inside and out. But being that both my grandfathers are dead and I don't want a .45, it makes even less sense to buy what seems to be regarded as at best a "finicky" pistol in a caliber it wasn't designed for. Although again, nobody's made any 9mm 1911 recommendations so I can't say for sure.

That being said, it would be very nice to try out all the handguns everyone's mentioned. The M&P, the XD, the EAA Witness and a 9mm 1911 would all be nice to get to try out. When I have the funds for a test run range trip, I'll be sure to do so. As for the individual choices, I don't think Sigs are for me. The one I shot, I didn't care for, and they're very expensive (save the reasonably-priced P250, (http://sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p250-full-size.aspx) which is kind of interesting). I can't recall right now if I held a full-sized USP but I think the compact was a bit small for my hands. Didn't shoot it, so I can't say if I liked it. As for the M&P, I didn't mind the way it felt but I didn't get a chance to put any rounds through it. I will when I can. I was also warned away by a friend who said the M&P's trigger is crap.

As for Guillermo - I think you misunderstand. I was saying I enjoyed the CZ family of guns the most. The Baby Eagle (a CZ variant) felt the best in my hand, pointed really well, and shot well. The CZ was also awesome, but there were a few (very few) things I did not like about it, or things that I just preferred on the Baby Eagle. The slide stop on the Baby Eagle seemed easier to use - I remember myself favoring to hit the slide stop with my left hand on the CZ75 whereas I could just activate it with my right thumb on the Eagle. So based on this criteria and single shooting experience alone, I'd pick the Baby Eagle. If it turns out that parts are impossible to find for it or I can't get the pistol, then I'll revert to the CZ.

I have to say, though, pending a shooting trip with it, the EAA Witness is looking very, very tempting.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/76/76085.jpg The full-size 9mm CZ-based Witness is available with a .22LR combo kit for under $500 so I can train on the same platform that I'd shoot with. From what I've seen, they've gotten great reviews on forums (with the exception of cracked slides on the 10mm Witness). I don't know what the parts availability is like or how the reliability is so if anybody's got some first hand anecdotes to share that would be much appreciated, but it seems like a really solid contender and a good first gun choice.

Thanks for the feedback, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Again, if anybody knows about 9mm 1911s, please chime in.

Regards,

--Inq

tacticalcity
09-28-2011, 4:06 AM
It is not putting the cart before the horse at all. But that is a common misconception. Learning how to evaluate different guns is part of any basic firearms course. It is one of the main reasons people take them.

Until you have some fundamentals, you have ZERO clue how to evaluate a gun. Plinking at the range tells you nothing if you don't know how to shoot in the first place. On a range you can cheat. You can cock back the hammer, bypass the safety and DA pull, and in doing so not get the first clue how the gun will perform if you actually had to use it to defend yourself when time is a luxury you will not have.

An entry level course teaches you the differences between actions, and depending on what gun your rent/borrow lets you see first hand how a particular action effects your shooting. You learn trigger control drills, which includes exploiting trigger reset, which until you know how to do that you have no clue why a short reset is important or how to compare the reset of different guns. The list of important things you would never know to consider before getting training goes on and on.

So a basic course is the best way to get some fundamentals and learn how to evaluate what gun will work best for you before you actually buy. After all, it is not an inexpensive purchase. It would suck to spend a lot of money then take a course and find out you HATE your gun. A very common experience by the way.

I myself thought I wanted a completely different gun before my first civilian course than after. Before that I thought I knew what I was doing because I was military and carried for a living. What I learned in that first civilian course changed everything.

As for telling people not to be rude and not to single people out they do not know...I stand by that as well. There is zero call for such rudeness. People get banned for less. The golden rule applies.

ZX-10R
09-28-2011, 7:25 AM
1911.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb85/mosepeda2000/IMG_2736.jpg

Inquirer
09-28-2011, 8:43 AM
It is not putting the cart before the horse at all. But that is a common misconception. Learning how to evaluate different guns is part of any basic firearms course. It is one of the main reasons people take them.

Until you have some fundamentals, you have ZERO clue how to evaluate a gun. Plinking at the range tells you nothing if you don't know how to shoot in the first place. On a range you can cheat. You can cock back the hammer, bypass the safety and DA pull, and in doing so not get the first clue how the gun will perform if you actually had to use it to defend yourself when time is a luxury you will not have.
...
As for telling people not to be rude and not to single people out they do not know...I stand by that as well. There is zero call for such rudeness. People get banned for less. The golden rule applies.

I just think you may have overestimated his hostility is all - probably poor phrasing, not hostile intent.

As for your input, it's definitely appreciated. I'm still having trouble agreeing with the training advice, if only for the simple reasons that I'm not quite as new to guns as you seem to think I am. I have taken professional instruction, shot multiple guns and different calibers, and don't "cheat". On the CZ, I load a mag, snap the slide back, and shoot. I have a pretty well-balanced modified weaver stance, and I shoot with both eyes open. And practically speaking - what am I going to say when they tell me to show up for class with a pistol and 500 rounds of ammunition? :D

On the 1911 front, you may be right - but I still haven't heard any 9mm 1911 recommendations. They would be appreciated. In any case, I'm really leaning toward the EAA Witness Combo kit - like others have suggested, I think it would be good to learn on a .22 to iron out and/or prevent any bad habits, shoot a ton for cheap, and then when I'm ready move up to the higher caliber on the exact same platform. Thoughts on that would be much appreciated too.

Thanks,

--Inq

paul0660
09-28-2011, 9:02 AM
CZ with a .22 conversion is the cat's meow. The witness combo is a great deal if you can find one and get it here.

If you like to shoot you will eventually get a 1911 of some type, and probably a Glock as well, even if it is just to get the fanboys to stop bugging you.

And don't forget there is a revolver or two in your future as well. Be patient, study, and you can find good deals on everything.

zfields
09-28-2011, 9:05 AM
You know my pick.

Inquirer
09-28-2011, 10:19 AM
You know my pick.

Yeah, well, after hearing about your CS experience with them I'm a little hesitant to jump in there. But it's a top contender right now regardless. ;)

The top three at the moment are:

EAA Witness 9mm/22LR Combo
IWI Baby Eagle 9mm Full-Size
CZ 75 SP-01


I'm gonna make another range trip first either way to test the M&P, XD, hopefully the Taurus PT1911 in 9mm if I can find it (unless somebody has a 9mm 1911 suggestion), and probably the Sig P226 (although it's out of my price range).

Also, can anybody make a concrete distinction between the CZ-75 and the Witness?:confused: Just wondering what the major differences are.

--Inq

someR1
09-28-2011, 10:43 AM
CZ or Glock = good choice.... you can't go wrong

By the way, it is called MAGAZINE

^^I agree
But I'm a Glock whore :cool2:

paul0660
09-28-2011, 10:55 AM
One difference between the EAA and CZ's is that the EAA is not on the roster. Here is a good forum about the Witness:

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?board=27.0

Sunday
09-28-2011, 11:11 AM
I would first pick a common brand gun like Ruger, Smith and Wesson, Springfield XD series, Glock ETC. Not saying others are bad but parts and repair should be taken into consideration. That is why an AR type of rifle is so great parts are available everywhere and reasonably priced .. Revolver or semi? what ever is fun. A serious note about 1911 types and this is a subject I can say I know the more you spend the better it will be no Kimbers or other low end range toys . A $500.00 Glock,Ruger,S@W etc will out last most any 1911 at 4X the price. But once you shoot a high quality 1911 you will understand the love for the 1911. " Kinda like driving the Toyota during the week and taking the Ferrari out for a pleasure drive." As mentioned a shooting safety and how to shoot class wouldn't hurt and they are really fun to take.. A 22 pistol is really a good choice to learn how to shoot with. A Ruger TARGET semi auto pistol 22 of your choice will let you learn and will be in your collection the longest, I would sell all my other guns before part with my Ruger 22. As it is my favorite to shoot gun.

InGrAM
09-28-2011, 11:19 AM
RIA 9mm 1911, if you want a 9mm 1911 option for less than $1000.

Fun, cheap to shoot, and reliable as hell. The biggest misconception with 1911's is that they are unreliable, not true. If you get a loose fitted gi spec 1911 it will feed brass casings. NTM, people try to modify, customize, and squeeze as much accuracy out of their 1911's all leading to problems if the modifications are not done properly.

But pick what you want and what fits your hand the best.

oghl888
09-28-2011, 12:10 PM
The CZ is a great choice. It's a good fitting gun for most hands, and has a .22 conversion kit available for inexpensive practice. I have 4 CZ's in my collection and I almost always bring at least one of them to the range with me. The 1911's, of which I have 5, are great also but requires more training time to keep up the skills. Glock ( I have 3 G17s) are good also, but the shape and grip angle is a bit peculiar feeling to me. I have them simply because they need less care, that's it, no other reasons.

The other CZ derivatives are also good choices. CZ tuning/aftermarket supplies are also coming along pretty nicely, if you ever want to upgrade it.

Looks like you have a good start with this.

chrisf
09-28-2011, 3:06 PM
Let me put it this way everyone has a different opinion, and thee only one that really matters is yours! I still say ruger :-) (my opinion)

Inquirer
09-28-2011, 5:57 PM
Got calls in to Valkyrie Arms to see if EAA Witnesses and Baby Eagles are doable. If not, I'm probably gonna go with an SP-01 or an SP-01 Tactical. Again, that's pending an injury report after shooting the Rock Island 9mm and an M&P, but I already photoshopped myself a custom version of the Tactical that would make me grin every time I went to the range.
Observe:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2my9sh1.jpg

--Inq

InGrAM
09-28-2011, 6:23 PM
Got calls in to Valkyrie Arms to see if EAA Witnesses and Baby Eagles are doable. If not, I'm probably gonna go with an SP-01 or an SP-01 Tactical. Again, that's pending an injury report after shooting the Rock Island 9mm and an M&P, but I already photoshopped myself a custom version of the Tactical that would make me grin every time I went to the range.
Observe:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2my9sh1.jpg

--Inq

Pretty cool. The color scheme reminds me of a tactical Sig P series

Spirit 1
09-28-2011, 6:58 PM
Just a side comment about CZ: when purchasing from the CZ Custom you'll find excellent prices, no sales tax, shipping included and another very big plus. They'll do a trigger job or any desired custom work up front at reasonable price & save you having to pay to ship a gun out & back. Really hard to beat their price point and of course CZ quality is legendary.

Inquirer
09-28-2011, 8:23 PM
Spirit - thanks for the tip. I'd definitely like to wind up with something along custom lines, although the SP-01 Tactical (http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-sp-01-tactical/) seems pretty sweet right out the gate. Although I could live without the decocker, the Tritium Night Sights seem like a great add-on that would be substantially more expensive to install aftermarket. I don't believe it's on the CA Approved List though. Really, really irksome. If anybody knows of a reseller selling the SP-01 Tactical here in Cali, let me know.

But if I do have to start with the standard SP-01 (http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-sp-01/), what are some modifications that you guys would recommend? You know, sights, trigger, springs, etc. Anything I could do myself? CZCustom has what they're calling a Competition Sight Package for $130, which apparently comes in Competition and Tactical Flavors. Not really sure what the advantage of the Tactical sight is over the Tritium sights, but maybe someone can point that out. Any recommendations of minor upgrades are welcome too. Thanks in advance. Getting excited about this.

--Inq

BayouBullets
09-28-2011, 8:31 PM
From the list, I would go CZ-75B also. But given more money, I would also go the SP-01. Its ergonomics are better.

How is the SP-01 different than the 75B other than the dust cover? Are you referring to the beavertail? You can get the 75B in the extended swept beavertail if you hunt a little. Other than that and the dust cover with the light rail on it, I can't think of any difference between the two. Did I forget something?

--BTW, My vote on the OP's question goes for a 75B unless you feel the need for a light rail. In that case, the SP-01 Tactical.

BayouBullets
09-28-2011, 8:49 PM
Yeah, well, after hearing about your CS experience with them I'm a little hesitant to jump in there. But it's a top contender right now regardless. ;)

The top three at the moment are:

EAA Witness 9mm/22LR Combo
IWI Baby Eagle 9mm Full-Size
CZ 75 SP-01


I'm gonna make another range trip first either way to test the M&P, XD, hopefully the Taurus PT1911 in 9mm if I can find it (unless somebody has a 9mm 1911 suggestion), and probably the Sig P226 (although it's out of my price range).

Also, can anybody make a concrete distinction between the CZ-75 and the Witness?:confused: Just wondering what the major differences are.

--Inq

CZ 75B is an older design with fewer cost-saving techniques. The Witness is an adaptation that deliberately tried to find "cost-savings in the production process." You'll never notice the difference until you hit 5000+ rounds down the pipe, but it will eventually start to show. You'll also notice the steel CZ is heavier than the steel Witness even though the dimensions are almost identical. Probably part of the reason why the CZ's seem more durable. --To put it bluntly, putting the Witness through the same torture test the SP-01 went through for NATO certification, would probably result in a Witness paper weight. Unless you want a 38 Super, get the CZ.

Inquirer
09-28-2011, 11:52 PM
How is the SP-01 different than the 75B other than the dust cover? Are you referring to the beavertail? You can get the 75B in the extended swept beavertail if you hunt a little. Other than that and the dust cover with the light rail on it, I can't think of any difference between the two. Did I forget something?

--BTW, My vote on the OP's question goes for a 75B unless you feel the need for a light rail. In that case, the SP-01 Tactical.

From what I can tell, these are the differences.
http://i53.tinypic.com/29lcjdj.jpg

Full Rail Dust Cover
Slide Stop is Larger and Further Back
Trigger is More Steeply Hooked
Larger and More Accessible Magazine Release
Larger Beavertail
More Ergonomic Safety/Decocker


Obviously this doesn't include any internals, but I don't know if there are any differences there. Also depending on which SP-01 you get you may get Tritium night sights.
Man, I really want an SP-01 Tactical now. :facepalm:

--Inq

GuillermoAntonio
09-29-2011, 3:40 AM
From what I can tell, these are the differences.
http://i53.tinypic.com/29lcjdj.jpg

Full Rail Dust Cover
Slide Stop is Larger and Further Back
Trigger is More Steeply Hooked
Larger and More Accessible Magazine Release
Larger Beavertail
More Ergonomic Safety/Decocker


Obviously this doesn't include any internals, but I don't know if there are any differences there. Also depending on which SP-01 you get you may get Tritium night sights.
Man, I really want an SP-01 Tactical now. :facepalm:

--Inq
7.-Grip, the grip was improved, some say the difference is awesome.

zfields
09-29-2011, 6:25 AM
From what I can tell, these are the differences.
http://i53.tinypic.com/29lcjdj.jpg

Full Rail Dust Cover Yup
Slide Stop is Larger and Further Backwhich isnt a big deal, it shouldnt be released from the slide stop anyways
Trigger is More Steeply Hooked I find it very uncomfortable, i wish the SA triggers would work on the DA models
Larger and More Accessible Magazine Release yes, something they changed on the SA model
Larger Beavertail BIG TIME, I love the upswept tail on the 75SA/SP01
More Ergonomic Safety/Decocker that decocker would get in the way for me. I still think the SA safety is one of the best, most natural out there.


--Inq

The grip on either is very nice, I wouldnt worry about it to much.

The Virus
09-29-2011, 8:31 AM
M&P 9
load it and shoot it..........

Inquirer
09-29-2011, 9:06 AM
The grip on either is very nice, I wouldnt worry about it to much.

Yeah, the grip isn't what worries me - that seems similar. But the beavertail is what I most want, followed by the slide stop, which I need to operate with my left hand, subsequently chapping my @$$. You say that the SA does away with these petty annoyances - is an SA the right choice for a starting gun? I've also been intrigued by the 85 Combat lately - I'd like to learn to shoot ambi, although that may be putting the cart before the horse a bit.

Side note: What do they mean by a "Drop Free Mag"? Is that just a looser tolerance magazine well? Won't almost all mags drop free with gravity's help?

--Inq

zfields
09-29-2011, 9:25 AM
Yeah, the grip isn't what worries me - that seems similar. But the beavertail is what I most want, followed by the slide stop, which I need to operate with my left hand, subsequently chapping my @$$. You say that the SA does away with these petty annoyances - is an SA the right choice for a starting gun? I've also been intrigued by the 85 Combat lately - I'd like to learn to shoot ambi, although that may be putting the cart before the horse a bit.

Side note: What do they mean by a "Drop Free Mag"? Is that just a looser tolerance magazine well? Won't almost all mags drop free with gravity's help?

--Inq

Get on gtalk you bastard.


Im a believer you shouldnt depend on the slide stop to drop you slide. As for the drop free mags, the 75b still has that, but is a very easy fix.

lswanie
09-29-2011, 10:20 AM
Uh, a 1911 is not a good starter pistol unless the shooter already has extensive hot range firearms safety experience. Do not start off with an S/A only .45...not a good idea. Tons of AD's, and literally the only safe way to store it for live use is with the hammer cocked and reliance on the grip safety. You CANNOT drop the hammer on a 1911 and store it that way with a round in the chamber among other safety quirks a beginner should not be dealing with

Not a good starter pistol...

Inquirer
09-29-2011, 10:40 AM
Uh, a 1911 is not a good starter pistol unless the shooter already has extensive hot range firearms safety experience. Do not start off with an S/A only .45...not a good idea. Tons of AD's, and literally the only safe way to store it for live use is with the hammer cocked and reliance on the grip safety. You CANNOT drop the hammer on a 1911 and store it that way with a round in the chamber among other safety quirks a beginner should not be dealing with

Not a good starter pistol...

This makes a lot of sense to me... Glad I'm not a sissy for being a little intimidated by position one.:rolleyes:

lswanie
09-29-2011, 10:48 AM
This makes a lot of sense to me... Glad I'm not a sissy for being a little intimidated by position one.:rolleyes:

Guns are designed for destroying stuff; not shooting pieces of paper and making you feel manly

Inquirer
09-29-2011, 10:51 AM
Guns are designed for destroying stuff; not shooting pieces of paper and making you feel manly

Coulda fooled me.

NytWolf
09-29-2011, 11:15 AM
How is the SP-01 different than the 75B other than the dust cover? Are you referring to the beavertail? You can get the 75B in the extended swept beavertail if you hunt a little. Other than that and the dust cover with the light rail on it, I can't think of any difference between the two. Did I forget something?

--BTW, My vote on the OP's question goes for a 75B unless you feel the need for a light rail. In that case, the SP-01 Tactical.

Other than what Inquirer posted, it just feels better in the hands. It's hard to explain without actually handling them side by side. The SP-01 just fits better.

InGrAM
09-29-2011, 11:19 AM
Uh, a 1911 is not a good starter pistol unless the shooter already has extensive hot range firearms safety experience. Do not start off with an S/A only .45...not a good idea. Tons of AD's, and literally the only safe way to store it for live use is with the hammer cocked and reliance on the grip safety. You CANNOT drop the hammer on a 1911 and store it that way with a round in the chamber among other safety quirks a beginner should not be dealing with

Not a good starter pistol...

Yes, it is a good starter pistol. Any idiot can work a 1911 with out having ND's. where do you come off automatically assuming that someone will have a ND just because they are new to pistols and they buy a 1911? That is ignorance, no offense. Also, you leave your 1911 cocked without the safety engaged? Sure does sound like it in your post. That is idiotic on so many levels. As long as the "newbie" buying the 1911 knows that you always check a firearm before handling it, they will be fine.
Enough with your FUD.

InGrAM
09-29-2011, 11:21 AM
This makes a lot of sense to me... Glad I'm not a sissy for being a little intimidated by position one.:rolleyes:

You need to get over your fears, a firearm will NEVER go bang unless you squeeze the trigger. Or with some guns, drop it on a hard surface :facepalm:

lswanie
09-29-2011, 11:39 AM
Yes, it is a good starter pistol. Any idiot can work a 1911 with out having ND's. where do you come off automatically assuming that someone will have a ND just because they are new to pistols and they buy a 1911? That is ignorance, no offense. Also, you leave your 1911 cocked without the safety engaged? Sure does sound like it in your post. That is idiotic on so many levels. As long as the "newbie" buying the 1911 knows that you always check a firearm before handling it, they will be fine.
Enough with your FUD.

A bunch of high end 1911's have no safety other than the grip safety...

As far as an accidental discharge; when it comes to guns, you are always better safe than sorry. If you go to a 1911 forum you will find a large portion of people there would be saying the exact same things I am saying.

I am not saying keeping a round chambered in a 1911 is a good idea, it is just the way the firearm was designed to be used over 100 years ago. The 1911 is a combat pistol from the ground up, plain and simple. If you have a handgun for self defense, and you do not have a round in the chamber; what is the point? You cannot drop the hammer on a 1911 and assume it is safe, because he firing pin is still primed to shoot; and in rare cases, this has happened.

If you are just buying to to shoot pieces of paper at a range; I guess it really does not matter. However, I still maintain that 1911's are not user friendly to newcomers, and if you disagree with me; just go over to a 1911 forum and argue your case there

InGrAM
09-29-2011, 2:02 PM
A bunch of high end 1911's have no safety other than the grip safety...

As far as an accidental discharge; when it comes to guns, you are always better safe than sorry. If you go to a 1911 you will find a large portion of people there would be saying the exact same things I am saying.

I am not saying keeping a round chambered in a 1911 is a good idea, it is just the way the firearm was designed to be used over 100 years ago. The 1911 is a combat pistol from the ground up, plain and simple. If you have a handgun for self defense, and you do not have a round in the chamber; what is the point? You cannot drop the hammer on a 1911 and assume it is safe, because he firing pin is still primed to shoot; and in rare cases, this has happened.

If you are just buying to to shoot pieces of paper at a range; I guess it really does not matter. However, I still maintain that 1911's are not user friendly to newcomers, and if you disagree with me; just go over to a 1911 forum and argue your case there

1. High end 1911's with only a grip safety. You are talking about competition 1911s not the average 1911.

2. You are just as likely to get a Negligent discharge form a glock, M&P, CZ, any other pistol as you are from a 1911. Once again you are saying that someone will have a ND just because the gun is SAO, that is ignorant.

3.The firing pin is static and does nothing on a 1911 until it is hit by the hammer. With a striker-fried gun the striker is primed and cocked a pre-set amount until the trigger is pressed. I do not see how either are any different? In both cases a spring is compressed to operate the firing mechanism. It is perfectly safe to carry and leave a 1911 with a round in the chamber as well as any other modern firearm.

Do you think Hi-Powers are safe to leave cocked and locked? Because military's all around the world have been doing it since the 30's
NTM, that the world uses CZ-75's which is a SA/DA gun with no decocker. How is it any safer to carry this gun or leave it cocked and locked?

If OP does not want a 1911 because he is uneasy about the SAO set up on the 1911 and other pistols, then he should not be getting a CZ without a decocker. Plan and simple.

lswanie
09-29-2011, 2:26 PM
1. High end 1911's with only a grip safety. You are talking about competition 1911s not the average 1911.

2. You are just as likely to get a Negligent discharge form a glock, M&P, CZ, any other pistol as you are from a 1911. Once again you are saying that someone will have a ND just because the gun is SAO, that is ignorant.

3.The firing pin is static and does nothing on a 1911 until it is hit by the hammer. With a striker-fried gun the striker is primed and cocked a pre-set amount until the trigger is pressed. I do not see how either are any different? In both cases a spring is compressed to operate the firing mechanism. It is perfectly safe to carry and leave a 1911 with a round in the chamber as well as any other modern firearm.

Do you think Hi-Powers are safe to leave cocked and locked? Because military's all around the world have been doing it since the 30's
NTM, that the world uses CZ-75's which is a SA/DA gun with no decocker. How is it any safer to carry this gun or leave it cocked and locked?

If OP does not want a 1911 because he is uneasy about the SAO set up on the 1911 and other pistols, then he should not be getting a CZ without a decocker. Plan and simple.

I am only going to comment on 3 here because the rest is preferences in gun safety, and my advice is always start off with the most idiot proof thing possible and work from there.

With 1911's (maybe the CZ too; I don't know and am only speaking to what I do know here), when you lower the hammer; the firearm is not totally de-cocked and safe to stow away (not that anything with a round in the chamber really is). All that it takes is for the hammer to come back a little bit and then fall back onto the primer and fire off the round; it does not need to be fully cocked back to do so

A couple of example problems I can think of is, "oh no there's a bad guy, I am cocking my gun, my finger slipped, bang" or "whoops it snagged on my belt loop, bang". Then there are the freakish horror stories that may or may not be true. I remember reading on another forum, that they actually banned lowering the hammer on top of rounds during weapons training in the Marine Corps, towards the end of widely implementing the 1911; because there were numerous AD's associated with it.

Yes I think it is safe to carry cocked and locked if you know what you are doing and are trained in a hot range environment (I believe I pointed this out in my first post).

dagger10k
09-29-2011, 2:49 PM
Can you provide an example? I don't recall ever seeing a 1911 with only a grip safety.

A bunch of high end 1911's have no safety other than the grip safety...

lswanie
09-29-2011, 3:01 PM
Can you provide an example? I don't recall ever seeing a 1911 with only a grip safety.

I am not sure if you are going to find one out of the box that way anymore, but there are plenty of DIY article's if you Google the subject. I think the original model by Browning had no thumb safety. If this guy on this other board is correct that is the case

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?144283-Original-1911-Without-Thumb-Safety!

EDIT: After reading through that it appears the Army added a thumb safety, so I am not sure if that model ever made it into circulation

dagger10k
09-29-2011, 3:20 PM
Yeah, the model 1910 had no thumb safety, and some people may have removed their own, but it seems like this does not qualify as "A bunch of high end 1911's", no? :)

I am not sure if you are going to find one out of the box that way anymore, but there are plenty of DIY article's if you Google the subject. I think the original model by Browning had no thumb safety. If this guy on this other board is correct that is the case

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?144283-Original-1911-Without-Thumb-Safety!

EDIT: After reading through that it appears the Army added a thumb safety, so I am not sure if that model ever made it into circulation

lswanie
09-29-2011, 3:45 PM
Yeah, the model 1910 had no thumb safety, and some people may have removed their own, but it seems like this does not qualify as "A bunch of high end 1911's", no? :)

I bet by the end of the day my ffl buddy could call a handful of high end 1911 manufacturers and custom order "a bunch" of 1911's with no thumb safeties. He wouldn't do it because it would make him look like a retard. Point I am making here is it is done; because at the end of the day it is your brain and the trigger with these things, more so than with guns that have internal safeties. EDIT: After reading that sounds pretty stupid; I am having trouble wording that basically 1911's are harrier and less forgiving than normal modern day handguns

Mainly 1911's are designed from the ground up to be cocked and locked, and the user is supposed to rely on the grip safety and their brain as the primary safety function. Everything else is an addition not inherently built into the design of the gun. The half cock "intercept notch" thing for example which is supposed to keep it going off (and as I mentioned earlier sometimes fails), is an example.

The difference between these and guns with internal safeties is small but enormous and seems to be often over looked

InGrAM
09-29-2011, 3:58 PM
I am only going to comment on 3 here because the rest is preferences in gun safety, and my advice is always start off with the most idiot proof thing possible and work from there.

With 1911's (maybe the CZ too; I don't know and am only speaking to what I do know here), when you lower the hammer; the firearm is not totally de-cocked and safe to stow away (not that anything with a round in the chamber really is). All that it takes is for the hammer to come back a little bit and then fall back onto the primer and fire off the round; it does not need to be fully cocked back to do so

A couple of example problems I can think of is, "oh no there's a bad guy, I am cocking my gun, my finger slipped, bang" or "whoops it snagged on my belt loop, bang". Then there are the freakish horror stories that may or may not be true. I remember reading on another forum, that they actually banned lowering the hammer on top of rounds during weapons training in the Marine Corps, towards the end of widely implementing the 1911; because there were numerous AD's associated with it.

Yes I think it is safe to carry cocked and locked if you know what you are doing and are trained in a hot range environment (I believe I pointed this out in my first post).

Why would anyone EVER decock a 1911 with a round in the chamber? The gun is not designed to do that. There for, your argument has no standing. The 1911 is designed to be used cocked and locked with a thumb and grip safety. Period.

lswanie
09-29-2011, 4:17 PM
Yes, it is a good starter pistol. Any idiot can work a 1911 with out having ND's. where do you come off automatically assuming that someone will have a ND just because they are new to pistols and they buy a 1911? That is ignorance, no offense. Also, you leave your 1911 cocked without the safety engaged? Sure does sound like it in your post.

Why would anyone EVER decock a 1911 with a round in the chamber? The gun is not designed to do that. There for, your argument has no standing. The 1911 is designed to be used cocked and locked with a thumb and grip safety. Period.

That has been one of my points all along if you go back and read through my posts.

Exactly why it is not a good gun for a first handgun. That is a dangerous safety option outside (hell, anywhere) of a hot range. This is all coming full circle to my original post.

Also words have been put into my posts lol. I don't leave my 1911 around loaded with the safety off, and in no way said that anywhere in there. In a combat situation I sure as hell am not going to have the safety on, and that my friend; is when having the option to go DA will be the difference between a visual warning and a manslaughter/murder charge

With guns it is better safe than sorry, always

InGrAM
09-29-2011, 4:31 PM
That has been one of my points all along if you go back and read through my posts.

Exactly why it is not a good gun for a first handgun. That is a dangerous safety option outside (hell, anywhere) of a hot range. This is all coming full circle to my original post.

Also words have been put into my posts lol. I don't leave my 1911 around loaded with the safety off, and in no way said that anywhere in there. In a combat situation I sure as hell am not going to have the safety on, and that my friend; is when having the option to go DA will be the difference between a visual warning and a manslaughter/murder charge

With guns it is better safe than sorry, always

Decocking a 1911 is not a safety function of the firearm. It has nothing to do with how the gun operates. So, why do you keep talking about it as if it was a safety feature? Just because someone is new to the platform does not mean they are automatically going to try and decock the firearm, that is ridiculous.

From the way you are typing in this thread you are leading me to believe that you have no experience with the 1911 platform. If you did, you would understand that "decocking" a 1911 is absurd.

lswanie
09-29-2011, 4:40 PM
Decocking a 1911 is not a safety function of the firearm. It has nothing to do with how the gun operates. So, why do you keep talking about it as if it was a safety feature? Just because someone is new to the platform does not mean they are automatically going to try and decock the firearm, that is ridiculous.

From the way you are typing in this thread you are leading me to believe that you have no experience with the 1911 platform. If you did, you would understand that "decocking" a 1911 is absurd.

Having a double action pistol is safer for a beginner than having a single action only semi-automatic pistol. That is all I was saying at the beginning. People drop the hammer on their 1911s all the time and it is dumb, but people do it

I can read through your post and make the argument you think it is okay to throw a 1911 into a beginners hands and say, "hey this is as safe as a .22 revolver to learn with. Just don't pull the trigger and you are totally good to go." You keep trying to make this a you are right I am wrong thing, when all I am trying to say is single action semi autos are particularly dangerous weapons. Proper gun safety takes experience; not just reading and memorizing rules

EDIT: I was saying that having a gun cocked and locked as the safest way to keep it loaded is a dangerous safety option; not dropping the hammer on it. You seem to automatically assume the absolute worst meaning out of what is written

Briancnelson
09-29-2011, 5:09 PM
Having shot a 1911, I just wouldn't recommend one as a first gun. Second gun for sure, but I just think there are better guns to learn on that are easier in the overall ownership sense, and require a little less TLC to keep running perfectly.

They are great fun, but I wouldn't want it to be my first and only pistol is all.

InGrAM
09-29-2011, 5:31 PM
Having a double action pistol is safer for a beginner than having a single action only semi-automatic pistol. That is all I was saying at the beginning. People drop the hammer on their 1911s all the time and it is dumb, but people do it

I can read through your post and make the argument you think it is okay to throw a 1911 into a beginners hands and say, "hey this is as safe as a .22 revolver to learn with. Just don't pull the trigger and you are totally good to go." You keep trying to make this a you are right I am wrong thing, when all I am trying to say is single action semi autos are particularly dangerous weapons. Proper gun safety takes experience; not just reading and memorizing rules

EDIT: I was saying that having a gun cocked and locked as the safest way to keep it loaded is a dangerous safety option; not dropping the hammer on it. You seem to automatically assume the absolute worst meaning out of what is written

I do think that it is OK to show someone how to use a gun and then hand it to them so they can use it. If you can not operate a 1911 then you cannot operate plenty of other firearms out there. I will agree with you that a DA pistol is more "dummy proof" than a 1911 but your argument that a person new to 1911's will automatically try and decock the gun is completely idiotic.

How is cocked and locked a "dangerous" safety option? How is it any better than a glock or M&P which has no external safety? Do you think that a person new to handguns will forget to disengage the safety on a 1911? Maybe so, but you did not make that argument, you just kept saying that they will try and decock it.

I have a feeling what is in bold is what you mean. If so, then I will agree with you that a person new to handguns might forget to disengage the safety on a 1911 when they need it most.

Inquirer
09-29-2011, 5:46 PM
Glad this semantic argument is wrapping up. Seemed like you two were just playing he said she said bull*****.

All guns are inherently very f--king dangerous. Ingram, he means there's more margin for error on a cocked and locked SA pistol, which from what I understand is true. DA/SA is just one less thing to think about - and that seems like a good thing for a new shooter.

That said, Valkyrie Arms wants $890 for the SP-01 Tactical which, frankly, ain't gonna happen. So maybe I'll just buy the CZ 75 SA! :P

--Inq

Go Navy
09-29-2011, 6:06 PM
Hold on a minute. $5 for a trial is cheap compared to the street prices of the really good pistols. I would say you've narrowed down the possibilities too much already. You need to check out the Beretta 92, H&K, FN, Ruger SR9 (2011 model) and SIG at the very least. I say forget about a 1911/.45 acp; You can add one of those later but don't buy one as a first gun.

Inquirer
09-29-2011, 6:17 PM
Navy,

Last week wasn't my first shooting experience. I know I don't like Berettas, the HK's are too expensive, the FN is like a baby toy in my hand, and the SR9 feels like as cheap a POS as it did a few years ago. The Sig I tried that day was junk city, but I'm open to trying out the fabled P226. However, that one's out of my price range too so it's a relative non-issue. As stated earlier in the thread - I have no interest in .45. Not only is it too much gun - it's too damned expensive to shoot.

Guns I'm still totally open to are the EAA Witness, the M&P 9, the XD, and the RIA 9mm 1911. Otherwise, give me a Baby Eagle or a CZ. I got big mitts, and those Czech girls seem to know how to fill 'em.

--Inq

Ranger20
09-29-2011, 6:54 PM
Nothing wrong with continuing to test and rent a few more to decide..
Take your time.. and make a good first choice..
This will save you money,time and frustration!

Inquirer
09-30-2011, 8:34 AM
Just out of curiosity, who's got the best prices on the 9mm RIA? Anybody know if there's a shop that stocks them regularly? Can be in the Southland or up North; I'm moving soon so it doesn't matter all that much.

Thanks,

--Inq

BayouBullets
09-30-2011, 3:50 PM
OK. You're comparing strictly to a standard model. It looks like you prefer the rail, so the rest of this is just academic clarification for other readers: Omega versions of the 75B have the same trigger as the SP-01, same extended beavertail grip and mag release, but not the longer slide stop release. (That's the one I missed earlier.) The decocker or standard safety is a drop-in-switch option for all CZ's with the Omega trigger system. If you wanted, you could switch your Tactical's decocker to a traditional safety. You can even get the standard 75B with a decocker, but you can't switch it back to standard safety because the internals on that trigger system won't allow it. So the decocker option is the same as well. I couldn't say either way on the tritium night sight option. I've never really felt the need for it. In summary, If you are not a light rail fan, but prefer the grip, safety and trigger features associated with the SP-01, look for a 75B Omega version. On a side note: The 75D PCR version also has the omega trigger, decocker, and extended mag release. The extended beavertail on it isn't quite as generous as the SP-01 or the 75B Omega, but it's close. It doesn't have the light rail or the extended slide stop release either, but would be considerably less concealable with the former. As for the latter, I don't use it anyway.

Inquirer
10-01-2011, 1:28 AM
Thanks for the great post, Bayou. Are you a CZ guy from way back? I like the idea of switching the decocker to a safety, especially until I get more time on the trigger. And the Omega sounds awesome, but it's non-roster and thus even harder to get than an SP-01 (non-tactical version). I'm moving back to Los Angeles in a few days, so carry is a relative non-issue, although I would in the future like to own a more compact handgun. Not even that tied to the Night Sights and, although I would prefer the rail and the ergos of the SP-01, the only real difference I really like is the extended beavertail (and I like the ambi/extended controls). I'll keep you guys posted as I get the chance to shoot more. It's basically evolved into a fight between CZ models unless something else - XD, MP9, 1911 9mm - really wows me.

Although... THIS IS SUCH A GOOD DEAL! (http://www.gunforall.com/shopcart/mcartfree/product.asp?intprodid=176085&thisitem=eaa%20999175%20witness%209mm/22lr%20combo%20bl)

--Inq