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View Full Version : featureless builds... how do you run yours fast?


benbangui
09-26-2011, 1:25 AM
hey all... crazyness in my life is bringing me back to CA again. before, i was just over "running & gunning" in CA cause i cant stand the idea of running a featureless AR... though i have never tried it...

now im considering making my AR featureless with the different grip so i can actuate mag release... or switching platforms to the mini-14. i could be wrong but i just cant see using a bullet button being faster then the the wierd grip or running a mini14. if i am wrong, please let me know what you think :) or maybe show me video of it being pretty fast and efficient with practice?

please be patient with me as well as i might not be able to respond all the time, right away, due to family circumstances.

here is my AR now:
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff513/benbangui/IMG_4191.jpg




check out my youtube channel below to see videos of me running it.
and again, any advice deciding what to do will be appreciated :)



and if any of you read the thread i had a while back of me sighting in this rifle, i have sighted it in since, and it was perfectly fine the next time i tried. it was simply that i was closer then 25yards when i sighted it in. and was trying to overthink it before my next trip to the range :)


.

Merc1138
09-26-2011, 1:42 AM
You're right, there is absolutely no way a bullet button is faster than using a "weird grip".

Not having to find a tool. Not having to shove a tool into the mag release. Can clear a malfunction faster. Not having a rivet put through the finger of a glove. Not having a ring with a nub on the end of your finger. etc.

There is absolutely no way that you can use a BB as fast as someone can push a regular magazine release with their finger, featureless would be faster. The grip you'll get used to, and they're cheap. The bigger problems(and more expensive) you have are needing to swap out that flash hider and pinning/replacing the collapsing stock(you don't need to spend any money replacing the VFG, just take it off).

MrPlink
09-26-2011, 1:48 AM
it appears once again you are over thinking this.

fin grips (and related) just changes the way your firing hand holds the gun, THAT'S IT!

Things that dont make you go "fast":

-folding stocks
-flash hiders
-vertical foregrips

I dont know if you own any pre-bans but I do, so let me promise you that a featureless rifle with detachable 30rd magazine is 1000x more evil (and "fast") than any pistol grip + 10rd mag locked rifle PERIOD.

tenpercentfirearms
09-26-2011, 6:26 AM
Running a MonsterMan Grip on my 3 gun rifle doesn't seem to effect me at all. I don't think I would be any faster with a regular pistol grip. I would be faster with more training probably.

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 6:55 AM
Exile machine (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pages/hammerhead-configurations-2.html)

CSACANNONEER
09-26-2011, 7:17 AM
U15, MM, grip wrap or Exile, they all work fine.

October
09-26-2011, 7:22 AM
just wondering...are you doing tactical training or something? Why the need to "go fast"? You have an awful nice setup, I would leave as is instead of having to put those hideous grips on, change your nice stock, flash hider, etc etc. The rivet finger glove things work exceptionally well for BB

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 7:37 AM
just wondering...are you doing tactical training or something? Why the need to "go fast"? You have an awful nice setup, I would leave as is instead of having to put those hideous grips on, change your nice stock, flash hider, etc etc. The rivet finger glove things work exceptionally well for BB

in some matches the winner is determined by hundredths of a second not just shot placement.

Merc1138
09-26-2011, 8:37 AM
just wondering...are you doing tactical training or something? Why the need to "go fast"? You have an awful nice setup, I would leave as is instead of having to put those hideous grips on, change your nice stock, flash hider, etc etc. The rivet finger glove things work exceptionally well for BB

Because maybe looks aren't always the most important?

Besides, getting a muzzle brake would only help with keeping on target anyway. A rivet in the finger of a glove still isn't as fast as a regular mag release either.

SuperSet
09-26-2011, 9:21 AM
The easiest transition from that build to a featureless would be to slap a Solar Tactical grip on there. They make a grip that molds perfectly to the MagPul MIAD/MOE as I'm running that setup as well. Your firing hand will rest at the same firing angle so the only difference is that your thumb won't go over to the left, it'll stay straight.
Additionally, you'll need to pin your stock (if you want to keep that one) or buy a fixed stock (I like the VLTOR A1 fixed) and swap your FH for a muzzle brake (lots to choose from).
One other thing is that you'll have to ditch your vertical fore grip. You'll have to adapt your support hand stance as I prefer a thumb over grip anyway.
Welcome back!

October
09-26-2011, 10:15 AM
obviously if he is doing competition shooting or something featureless would be better. but he didn't say he was nor would i think he would put a bb in the first place. thus why i asked... what's the application going to be.

i know its not all about looks. but i have shot the CA legal grips and they feel to awkward and clumsy.

Merc1138
09-26-2011, 10:45 AM
obviously if he is doing competition shooting or something featureless would be better. but he didn't say he was nor would i think he would put a bb in the first place. thus why i asked... what's the application going to be.

i know its not all about looks. but i have shot the CA legal grips and they feel to awkward and clumsy.

He mentioned "running & gunning" which usually seems to involve going out to some BLM land or something, setting up a course of targets at various "stations" and running between with a shot timer.

What the appeal of that is, I don't know, not going to debate it here. It's like a competition but not.

chead
09-26-2011, 10:45 AM
Grip fins (vs. something like a MonsterMan) give you some leverage with the heel of your palm to bring the rifle from ready to on target, which helps a lot.

benbangui
09-26-2011, 10:58 AM
ill reply to every comment when i get a chance later. i dont have any tactical training, but i do set up my own courses of fire and try to run them as proficiently and fast as i can.

i know its not gonna make "me" faster. i was just wanting your guys opinions on what works and doesnt work for you, to "run" a CA rifle. i can switch platforms, it doesnt matter to me (thats why i posed switching to a Mini-14) i just want to see your opinions on what works best performance wise.

like i said, check out my videos on youtube and you will see im not just talking about bench shooting at the range. i want performance :) thanks again for your guys advice :)

SuperSet
09-26-2011, 11:11 AM
I saw your video and noted that you definitely are very skilled with your rifle. So, a change to a featureless build will not affect you much. From what I've seen, the more skilled the shooter, the quicker they can adapt to slight changes in their configuration.

CK_32
09-26-2011, 11:14 AM
Not if you have a raddlock!







:hide: :D

Saber2Golf
09-26-2011, 11:16 AM
You're right, there is absolutely no way a bullet button is faster than using a "weird grip".

Not having to find a tool. Not having to shove a tool into the mag release. Can clear a malfunction faster. Not having a rivet put through the finger of a glove. Not having a ring with a nub on the end of your finger. etc.

There is absolutely no way that you can use a BB as fast as someone can push a regular magazine release with their finger, featureless would be faster. The grip you'll get used to, and they're cheap. The bigger problems(and more expensive) you have are needing to swap out that flash hider and pinning/replacing the collapsing stock(you don't need to spend any money replacing the VFG, just take it off).

+1 on everything you said, my reply in my head was nearly verbatim.

Nowwhat
09-26-2011, 11:31 AM
Grip fins (vs. something like a MonsterMan) give you some leverage with the heel of your palm to bring the rifle from ready to on target, which helps a lot.

how do you work the safety....:rolleyes:

soopafly
09-26-2011, 11:37 AM
how do you work the safety....:rolleyes:

take your pick:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=AR-15+ambi+safety/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=AR-15_ambi_safety

sevensix2x51
09-26-2011, 11:38 AM
how do you work the safety....:rolleyes:
Adding an ambi safety puts the controls on the passenger side of the rifle, and gives a nice little shelf for the thumb to ride on.

SuperSet
09-26-2011, 11:39 AM
That's why you have an ambidextrous safety.

IJnuclear2009
09-26-2011, 12:26 PM
One thing that most people forget is that just because you switch over to featureless does not mean you can use hi cap mags in California, unless you had the mags before the ban. I like the look of a featureless ar15 you just have to adapt and conquer it in order to get good.

macey109
09-26-2011, 12:36 PM
One thing that most people forget is that just because you switch over to featureless does not mean you can use hi cap mags in California, unless you had the mags before the ban. I like the look of a featureless ar15 you just have to adapt and conquer it in order to get good.


if they are stamped preban it needs to be proven that you took posession post. Um 5th ammendment rights.

Nowwhat
09-26-2011, 12:49 PM
That's why you have an ambidextrous safety.

tried that...but when working the safety with the kydex grip, my hand shifts out of place for a moment...

3GunFunShooter
09-26-2011, 1:23 PM
I run the U-15 for my rifles. I was lucky and bought them when they first came out.
If I was just getting started I would seriously look at the Exile Machine grip/stock.
When I go out of state I do switch to an A2 stock and pistol grip. Don't want to be made fun of by the other free state competitors. LOL.
Mini 14 is a good choice also. I ran a stock one for 2 years, then bought an ASI custom
Mini 14. Which is almost as accurate as my JP upper. ( this was before the OLL's)

Exile Machine
09-26-2011, 1:31 PM
Grip fins (vs. something like a MonsterMan) give you some leverage with the heel of your palm to bring the rifle from ready to on target, which helps a lot.

You also have the option to wrap your hand around the gun (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/exile-machine-hammerhead-ar-15-grip-black-1.html). Best leverage available. You can shoot one handed if need be, or even from the hip, if that's your thing. :43:

http://exilemachine.com/images/IMG_7465.JPG

3GunFunShooter
09-26-2011, 2:35 PM
Exile Machine is right about the best leverage. I have seen shooters with the MM grip almost lose control of their rifle because they hit a wall, or at a very odd angle, shooting down at targets over a tall barricade. Not easy to one hand a rifle with MM on it. Then again I have small hands so my perception could be skewed.

SuperSet
09-26-2011, 2:40 PM
All good points concerning the Exile grip. It is easier to control the weapon with one hand vs. a Solar Tac/MMG.
Regarding the safety, unless you have extremely long thumbs, you'll still need an ambidextrous safety to work it. I'm not sure why you mention your hand shifting since you still have to use your thumb to work it.

WW2Buff
09-26-2011, 2:44 PM
I've used a MM for years now and couldn't be happier. I could see losing control of my rifle if I fell or something similar if I wasn't using two hands but only a little more so that with a standard pistol grip. Check a few grips out and see what you like. The only thing as fast as a featureless in CA is a RAW or illegal.

Bladewurk
09-26-2011, 2:53 PM
Superset knows whats up here..dont sweat the featureless it will not hold you back. I like your style in your vids..

GM_77
09-26-2011, 4:56 PM
Here is the bottom line for featureless:

If you own 30rnd magazines there is no way in this world a BB will ever be even close to be as fast as a featureless. And here is the undebatable reason why... When he gets to 10 rounds he changes mags, you don't.

If you don't own 30rnd magazines you will still be faster but not by a huge margin.



If I were to recommend featureless to a friend I would go with Solar-Tac but if my friend has big hands he could go with the Exile Machine setup. There is nothing you can't do (weapon manipulation) with the Solar-Tac setup that you can with an RAW.

I've done all kinds of shooting with the Solar-Tac and don't notice not being able to wrap my hand around the pistol grip. One handed both right and left, malfunction drills etc no problem. The closest feel you can get to your BB gun will be the Solar-Tac grip. I put some skateboard surface material on it to give it more grip.

For Exile machine the best ergonomic setup is the one he posted. But its just not for me when I shoot from the prone position. The other options don't provide as much leverage like the type III setup. I feel the Exile machine is more subject to how it will fit your body. If it does fit then its probably equal with the Solar-Tac grip.

I run a featureless AR15 with Aimpoint, Redimag, Daniel Defense RIS II FSP so its a heavy gun and I prefer the Solar-Tac when it comes to manipulation of the weapon system and shooting different positions.

Everything will probably work but I feel that is the most robust option.

stix213
09-26-2011, 5:01 PM
The only thing that isn't fast for me about my Hammerhead grip, is the safety - my thumb can't reach it anymore. I have fairly small hands though, so it may not be a problem for other people. Other than that, seems just as fast.

benbangui
09-26-2011, 5:53 PM
so i gotta scrap the verticle grip... but i can get a AFG?

would have to pin my CTR stock and add one of the kydex style wraps?

or scrap the ctr, and run a exile or stocks listed, but basically it cant be adjustable correct?

will always have problems with safety... i already have a ambi...


or maybe just run a mini 14 and i just cant have a verticle grip or mags with larger capacity then 10...? but i still could have a AFG right?

those are mostly hypothetical questions by the way :)

maybe ill just sell my AR, get a mini14 and get more back into precision shooting... :(

stix213
09-26-2011, 5:57 PM
so i gotta scrap the verticle grip... but i can get a AFG?


AFG not recommended for featureless. There have been lots of threads on it, shouldn't be hard to find.

SuperSet
09-26-2011, 6:26 PM
Yes, if you want to keep your CTR, you'll have to pin it. Or just run a fixed stock like the ACE, VLTOR A1 (my favorite) or GI A1/A2. And no go on the vertical foregrip although AFG seems like a gray area. I find the AFG uncomfortable so I don't run it.

And although it's a fine weapon, I wouldn't use the term Mini14 and precision in the same sentence.

The Virus
09-26-2011, 6:27 PM
You should probably decide what type of shooting you are going to do.......

Snooky
09-26-2011, 6:37 PM
Our gun laws in CA are terrible - all these grip/button stuff is BS.

OC-Indian
09-26-2011, 6:42 PM
My choice was the HammerHead. My next AR10 build will have one too. Grip reminds me of the 30-06's I grew up on. Dropping mags the way God intended....

WDE91
09-26-2011, 6:49 PM
Our gun laws in CA are terrible - all these grip/button stuff is BS.

Umm why thank you captain obvious :cool:

benbangui
09-26-2011, 8:54 PM
Yes, if you want to keep your CTR, you'll have to pin it. Or just run a fixed stock like the ACE, VLTOR A1 (my favorite) or GI A1/A2. And no go on the vertical foregrip although AFG seems like a gray area. I find the AFG uncomfortable so I don't run it.

And although it's a fine weapon, I wouldn't use the term Mini14 and precision in the same sentence.

haha agreed, i didnt mean the mini14 was a precision rifle :) i ment that i would get a mini-14 as my "battle rifle" but go back into precision shooting :) that being my main focus :)

soopafly
09-26-2011, 9:21 PM
Our gun laws in CA are terrible - all these grip/button stuff is BS.
Agreed...I hope you are joining the fight and not just complaining and doing nothing about it;)
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=108030
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
http://www.crpa.org/
http://nramemberscouncils.com/

you're welcome

PyroFox79
09-27-2011, 1:56 AM
I think the hammerhead is pretty cool. I would run it out of state mainly because I have become so used to it that a pistol grip feels awkward. My shot gun is the only thing I own with a collapseable stock and a pistol grip. Personally I prefer it to a pistol grip. I admit it does take some getting used to. But I have been using it for about a year and I love it. Thanks exile.

para38super
09-27-2011, 6:04 AM
I run a mini 14 and love it. But man, I have to say your 1911 is beautiful!!!

benbangui
09-27-2011, 10:32 AM
I run a mini 14 and love it. But man, I have to say your 1911 is beautiful!!!

thanks :) i did it myself! bobbed, undercut triggerguard, baked on gunkote :)

Bobby Ricigliano
09-27-2011, 10:43 AM
Yet another reason to go featureless is that it is much faster to clear a malfunction such as a double feed. Hopefully you'll never have one but Murphy's law says it will happen at the worst possible time. Try quickly stripping that mag and getting your hands in there to clear the chamber when you have to find your 'tool' first. FAIL.