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October
09-25-2011, 8:13 PM
Im assuming the round limiters arent legal in CA to use in a 30 body magazine:
http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG281/101

But im wondering the technicality of it? All I can find is that WELDING a limiter to the bottom mag plat is the only way to legally do it....but how is it any different? Couldnt you just get a different plate for that mag if you wanted to go back to high cap? This IS the plate so it seems to be part of the same concept.

anyways, wishful thinking. So wheres a good place to buy some already blocked 10/20 Pmags? Im having trouble finding some for a decent price (LEss than 30 bucks a pop)

Redlinegts
09-25-2011, 8:15 PM
http://www.riflegear.com/p-351-magpul-pmag-10-round-20-body-magazine-223556mm.aspx

incredablehefey
09-25-2011, 8:32 PM
Dont assume anything!
they ARE legal in Cal

October
09-25-2011, 8:36 PM
Dont assume anything!
they ARE legal in Cal

putting them inside of a hi cap mag to limit them down to ten, apparently, is not legal to do. According to magpul that is. This device is exactly what I was looking for so I could use 30 rounders and then take it out when I visit out of state. But of course, CA is pretty bent wrist about anything. Stupid.

hayaku
09-25-2011, 9:12 PM
putting them inside of a hi cap mag to limit them down to ten, apparently, is not legal to do. According to magpul that is. This device is exactly what I was looking for so I could use 30 rounders and then take it out when I visit out of state. But of course, CA is pretty bent wrist about anything. Stupid.

what do you mean its not legal to do? is there a link/article stating that as fact?

October
09-25-2011, 9:17 PM
what do you mean its not legal to do? is there a link/article stating that as fact?

from magpuls website:


NOTE: This product does not make PMAG 20 magazines legal in jurisdictions where magazines with a capacity of 20 rounds are prohibited. Consult all local, state, and federal regulations prior to usage.

huynh408
09-25-2011, 9:29 PM
thats just saying you cant have PMAG 20 in every state, Consult all local, state, and federal regulations prior to usage. what you can do is get rebuild kits which is actually legal and produce a 10/20 etc. the 10/20 plate has to be permanent and not be able to go back and create a 20 rounder again.

xxMichaelAnthony
09-25-2011, 10:48 PM
Technically that by itself wouldn't make it legal. You would still have to glue/pin the floor plate. So they are right by saying that.

CPC 12020c: (25)(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

Even then its a bit cheaper to take spent shells and put them under the spring to limit the capacity.

FeuerFrei
09-26-2011, 4:48 AM
Keep searching and reading.
This should help you. http://mobile.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4419244

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 5:01 AM
And many of us do not side with those who say it needs welds, glue epoxy, rivits...blah blah blah to be permanent.


kUR31CYk4dg

October
09-26-2011, 5:59 AM
And many of us do not side with those who say it needs welds, glue epoxy, rivits...blah blah blah to be permanent.


kUR31CYk4dg

lol see....thats why these freagin legalities, loop holes, work arounds, etc etc are confusing. whats PERMANENT? Welding or gluing to a floor plate? I couldn't just "CUT" off the blocking part if I wanted to out of state from a "PERMANENT" fixed mag?

I just wanna be able to make my 30's 10's so i can shoot them without buying new mags but be able to convert when i go to arizona and vegas, etc.

Which, by definition of the law...i can not do

gunsarefun
09-26-2011, 6:10 AM
lol see....thats why these freagin legalities, loop holes, work arounds, etc etc are confusing. whats PERMANENT? Welding or gluing to a floor plate? I couldn't just "CUT" off the blocking part if I wanted to out of state from a "PERMANENT" fixed mag?

I just wanna be able to make my 30's 10's so i can shoot them without buying new mags but be able to convert when i go to arizona and vegas, etc.

Which, by definition of the law...i can not do
I personally do not agree with the fellow in the video. I believe you do need something as simple as a rivet to keep the floor plate from being able to come off. THAT, is permanently modified. I mean geeze, if the law ever got reversed and we could have NORMAL capacity mags again, all a guy has to do is take 60 seconds to drill out your rivet.

October,
If I were you, I'd just buy a half dozen rebuild kits online, a good deal is like $12-13 a piece, and just permanently modify a couple to 10 rounds and leave a couple of them in rebuild form. When you travel out of state, leave the 10 rounders here and take your rebuilds with you.

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 6:54 AM
I personally do not agree with the fellow in the video. I believe you do need something as simple as a rivet to keep the floor plate from being able to come off. THAT, is permanently modified. I mean geeze, if the law ever got reversed and we could have NORMAL capacity mags again, all a guy has to do is take 60 seconds to drill out your rivet.

October,
If I were you, I'd just buy a half dozen rebuild kits online, a good deal is like $12-13 a piece, and just permanently modify a couple to 10 rounds and leave a couple of them in rebuild form. When you travel out of state, leave the 10 rounders here and take your rebuilds with you.

for the cost of a tube of epoxy its a simply task. ... just know the AG and DoJ issued a statement that welds, epoxy, rivets were not permanent and there is no true definition of it. They concluded and conceded that fact under pressure from the public. They defer the understanding of "permanently altered" to a jury tasked with ruling on it. So you only need to prove to a juror that the magazine held no more than 10 at the time of arrest.

The charge will be a violation of importation, sale or manufacture of said magazine. There is no law stating a magazine must NEVER have the ability to hold more than 10... only that a magazine with the capacity limited to 10 or less permanently is not a large capacity magazine. The DAs job is to prove your rivet, weld is not forever to prove your guilt.

Epoxy, rivets, welding, screws, bolts, pins are NOT permanent by magazine law. They are ONLY considered permanent by laws defining THOSE things as permanent... (the magazine law DID NOT define those things). Even when those are defined as "permanent", some are NOT lawful and the process is also concidered...(type of weld and type of weld material used...type of process used to pin).

Your epoxy, rivet and weld is just there to appease an Officer looking at it. Just like saying "sir" when addressing him/her. Thanking him/her for the ticket or warning. Its not about the law... its about bowing your head in respect to your masters.... and hoping they will not arrest you.

shooterdude
09-26-2011, 12:07 PM
I personally do not agree with the fellow in the video. I believe you do need something as simple as a rivet to keep the floor plate from being able to come off. THAT, is permanently modified. I mean geeze, if the law ever got reversed and we could have NORMAL capacity mags again, all a guy has to do is take 60 seconds to drill out your rivet.

October,
If I were you, I'd just buy a half dozen rebuild kits online, a good deal is like $12-13 a piece, and just permanently modify a couple to 10 rounds and leave a couple of them in rebuild form. When you travel out of state, leave the 10 rounders here and take your rebuilds with you.

Here goes THIS discussion...AGAIN!

Its ok to disagree with my viewpoint. Not everyone agrees what permanent means so go ahead and glue, rivet, weld, whatever...that still may or may not meet the definition of permanent in CA.

For me, I would rather not hassle it so I just use C-products 10 round magazines and avoid potential heartburn.

Iggy
09-26-2011, 12:34 PM
Like the video I believe it to be a permanent mod. The Magpul limiter replaces the base plate lock, although Magpul states that it is not a permanent modification, it is in terms of CA law.

The magazine cannot be used as a 20 round magazine with the limiter unless it is disassembled, the Magpul limiter removed, and the original floor plate lock installed. Once it is disassembled it is no longer a magazine and if reassembled differently than originally, the person assembling it just created a hi capacity magazine.

Simple put, a Magul magazine with a 20 round body and a Magpul 10 round limiter, CANNOT be used as a high capacity magazine unless MODIFIED. This modification if done is considered MANUFACTURING a high capacity magazine.

You can pin or glue it if you want but it's not going to be more legal. There are pistol magazines on the market from the factory that are limited to 10 rounds by having a longer than normal follower and the floor plate is not fixed. These are still not considered high cap mags.

deviljon
09-26-2011, 12:38 PM
I wonder if anybody makes a 20 round mag that stops at 10 rounds, but if you were to press a button on the mag would then allow for an additional 10 rounds to be loaded? It wouldn't be legal in California since it isn't permanent, and using it in a state without the 10rd limit would be pointless, but just a thought :)

sirsloth
09-26-2011, 12:51 PM
There is no such thing as permanent. It doesn't matter if you've epoxied, riveted, welded, whatever. Given the proper tools and/or parts, ANY blocked magazine can be turned back into a 30 rounder.

It's all about what you feel most comfortable with. By all means, take into account other people's opinions, but in the end it is your choice to make.

21SF
09-26-2011, 12:51 PM
Ok even tho you sent me a nasty PM.

Ill give you some advise...

Get 10 rounders or 10/20's. the 30's will make it hard to shoot off the bench, if your tall like me then it doesnt matter. But helps.

shark92651
09-26-2011, 1:01 PM
They never defined "permanent", and when people asked for clarification and examples they basically said "everyone knows what permanent is so we are not going to define it" - I'm paraphrasing of course. They left it vague on purpose, but the language IS in the law. Just go with what you are comfortable with. Since we sell modified mags we err on the side of caution and put a roll pin in the floor plate so that at least anyone handling the mags would not be able to disassemble them without tools.

Quiet
09-26-2011, 2:12 PM
What is "permanent"?

It first get decided upon, when a LEO examines the magazine to determine if it's a large capacity magazine.

It then gets decided upon, when the DA's Office decides on if they will prosecute you for manufacturing a large capacity magazine.

It lastly gets decided upon, when it's given to a jury to decide if it really is "permanent" 10 round magazine or a large capacity magazine.

So, your comfort level on how "permanent" you make your modified magazines should be based off that.

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 2:18 PM
They never defined "permanent", and when people asked for clarification and examples they basically said "everyone knows what permanent is so we are not going to define it" - I'm paraphrasing of course. They left it vague on purpose, but the language IS in the law. Just go with what you are comfortable with. Since we sell modified mags we err on the side of caution and put a roll pin in the floor plate so that at least anyone handling the mags would not be able to disassemble them without tools.

No one is questioning what it says. We are saying you are adding definition in the CHARGEABLE crime that isn't there.

This is the crime I must be charged with....
PC12020.(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

thats it... thats the whole crime.

In order to define what IS NOT a LCM they added this under the EXEMPTIONS to PC12020 (2).

As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

Nowhere does it say a rivet meets that standard...nor epoxy...nor welding, nor screws... nor bolts... nor a pin....NOTHING. You are saying that its OK. So if one of your Customer gets arrested their defense is, "Riflegear told me it was ok."

Our interpretation of the law is just as valid as yours. The only thing you have is the fact POLICE like your way since it separates them from the common peasants. Police don't need to limiting the capacity of magazines. So to make themselves extra special SOME of them want to see epoxy, welds, bolts pins and screws in magazines. I say SOME of them because I know several who agree with us that its NOT needed.

October
09-26-2011, 2:25 PM
i guess the question is... has anyone actually gone through the legal process defending themselves like said scenarios above?

it seems like all the legality hoo ha thrown about on pretty much every thread is just THIS CAN HAPPEN BUT WE AREN'T REAL SURE.

but like said before, nothing is permanent. it would make more sense to just ban high cap SIZE mags and not allow ANY to be blocked rather than allowing them that are as long as their permanent. since any large body mag can be converted back.

shark92651
09-26-2011, 2:29 PM
I didn't say a word about your interpretation not being valid, I just gave mine. Nowhere in my post did I say the law says a word about epoxy or rivets, etc... I pointed out that the law does contain the language of (A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds as a clarification of what is NOT a high cap and we feel more comfortable selling our mags the way we do. People are free to do whatever they want but they need to at least hear both sides of the argument.

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 2:41 PM
i guess the question is... has anyone actually gone through the legal process defending themselves like said scenarios above?

it seems like all the legality hoo ha thrown about on pretty much every thread is just THIS CAN HAPPEN BUT WE AREN'T REAL SURE.

but like said before, nothing is permanent. it would make more sense to just ban high cap SIZE mags and not allow ANY to be blocked rather than allowing them that are as long as their permanent. since any large body mag can be converted back.

well they need to allow people to comply with the law. which means you need a legal means to limit the capacity. not only a legal means but an actual way to do that.

its like saying the only legal magazine is one assembled on the moon. No one can do that so that law wouldn't be obtainable and wouldn't pass the test of what the DoJ was told to do... write a law against LCM and have an exception for and definition of what is and isn't a LCM.

saying "permanently altered" meant physical obtained is an impossible goal to achieve.. therefore the law is impossible to meet and abide by. Even a 10rd magazine can be made to hold 11.

Permanently altered means what it means as what a common person would think it ment... = forever in that condition.

As soon as you define PA as a physical standard its impossible to obtain WITHOUT a set standard...such as a process and a means to meet it.

The DoJ was not mandated to make such a standard and they said that. There is no standard. The standard is what a jury wants to see. Until a jury convicts and that conviction is over-turned on appeal there is no standard.

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 2:47 PM
I didn't say a word about your interpretation not being valid, I just gave mine. Nowhere in my post did I say the law says a word about epoxy or rivets, etc... I pointed out that the law does contain the language of (A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds as a clarification of what is NOT a high cap and we feel more comfortable selling our mags the way we do. People are free to do whatever they want but they need to at least hear both sides of the argument.

No but you said, "They left it vague on purpose, but the language IS in the law.". That implies your way is the way the law was writen...when NEITHER yours nor ours is.

Your language is NOT in the law and its NOT vague at all. Its clear as day to anyone who reads it. You need it to be vague to satisfy your requirement of a pin.

I am not saying that to be mean, I am just pointing out you need to justify your position or it doesnt make sense to pin it.

oh and I can take ANY and EVERY magazine you sell that is NOT pinned and (with my fingers without a tool) make it old 11 or more.... think about it. So when you start selling every single magazine with pinned or epoxied floor plates...then we will talk again about this.

shark92651
09-26-2011, 3:03 PM
No, it's not clear as day or else we wouldn't be seeing this question and debate come up every few days. Either way people would be saying "some guy on the internet told me it was legal" LOL.

21SF
09-26-2011, 3:05 PM
Im printing this page as proof!!!!!! lol

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 3:12 PM
No, it's not clear as day or else we wouldn't be seeing this question and debate come up every few days. Either way people would be saying "some guy on the internet told me it was legal" LOL.

touch'e LOL

as it stands....
A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

says nothing about pins, epoxy, welds.... screws, bolts. It just says its been ALTERED (meaning from one thing to another) and that is permanent.

I (nor You) can alter something that was never a thing to begin with.

Quickdraw Mcgraw
09-26-2011, 3:23 PM
Dang ya'll gave me a headach...thanks!

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 3:28 PM
Dang ya'll gave me a headach...thanks!

as shooters vid says...its not Monday unless we argue over this topic...:eek:

XDshooter
09-26-2011, 3:42 PM
I received some parts. Some long body PMAGs, a couple springs, a couple followers, and a couple base plates.

I assembled a couple 10 round magazines from these parts. Nothing needs to be altered. END OF STORY.


This part of the law does not apply to my magazines.
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 3:44 PM
^ "Long body" Its all in the wording.

October
09-26-2011, 4:58 PM
so how do we conclude this. Yes, its ok if you have a Parts kit, to insert this object and PERMANENTLY LEAVE it in there as a fixed 10 rounder?

If a LEO asked to inspect your magazine, what would he conclude from it? Dont we have LEO's on here? I want to know what they would think. That would be my deciding factor.

dieselpower
09-26-2011, 5:02 PM
so how do we conclude this. Yes, its ok if you have a Parts kit, to insert this object and PERMANENTLY LEAVE it in there as a fixed 10 rounder?

If a LEO asked to inspect your magazine, what would he conclude from it? Don't we have LEO's on here? I want to know what they would think. That would be my deciding factor.

if you have any doubt in your mind you need to fall back on critical thinking..which says you need to epoxy the floor plate.

critical thinking tells us to; use the path of least resistance, Occam's razor and error on the side of caution.

the only people who do not need to epoxy, rivet, weld and/or pin are those who understand the concept enough to defend their action to a governing authority.

October
09-26-2011, 5:12 PM
if you have any doubt in your mind you need to fall back on critical thinking..which says you need to epoxy the floor plate.

critical thinking tells us to; use the path of least resistance, Occam's razor and error on the side of caution.

the only people who do not need to epoxy, rivet, weld and/or pin are those who understand the concept enough to defend their action to a governing authority.


Your're pretty good with words. Im gonna start listening to everything you say on here.

looks like ill be getting the ones already blocked, lol.

Iggy
09-26-2011, 5:21 PM
the only people who do not need to epoxy, rivet, weld and/or pin are those who understand the concept enough to defend their action to a governing authority.

It still doesn't apply if they don't understand why it's pinned. If they don't understand they should just use 10 rounds mags in 10 round bodies.


Did you guys read my post? Why would pinning make this anymore permanent?

Oh and by the way adding a 10 round limiter to a 30 round body is still a high capacity magazine, unless Magpul mad a 10 round limiter for 30's.


Like the video I believe it to be a permanent mod. The Magpul limiter replaces the base plate lock, although Magpul states that it is not a permanent modification, it is in terms of CA law.

The magazine cannot be used as a 20 round magazine with the limiter unless it is disassembled, the Magpul limiter removed, and the original floor plate lock installed. Once it is disassembled it is no longer a magazine and if reassembled differently than originally, the person assembling it just created a hi capacity magazine.

Simple put, a Magul magazine with a 20 round body and a Magpul 10 round limiter, CANNOT be used as a high capacity magazine unless MODIFIED. This modification if done is considered MANUFACTURING a high capacity magazine.

You can pin or glue it if you want but it's not going to be more legal. There are pistol magazines on the market from the factory that are limited to 10 rounds by having a longer than normal follower and the floor plate is not fixed. These are still not considered high cap mags.

shooterdude
09-26-2011, 5:30 PM
Why is this an issue? If you aren't 100% comfortable using a magazine that has been modified to only hold 10 rounds then don't use it. Buy yourself some 10 round steel or aluminum magazines and be done with it already.

October
09-26-2011, 5:38 PM
Why is this an issue? If you aren't 100% comfortable using a magazine that has been modified to only hold 10 rounds then don't use it. Buy yourself some 10 round steel or aluminum magazines and be done with it already.

because. Some people like the option of having this product so that they can limit their mags while they are in state and unlimit them when they are out instead of buying all new mags.


make sense?

WHich, can be done with any blocked mag in high cap body anyways. SOme easier than others. Since we concluded NOTHING is permanent.

sirsloth
09-26-2011, 5:44 PM
LOL ninja edit.

ArkinDomino
09-26-2011, 5:59 PM
And many of us do not side with those who say it needs welds, glue epoxy, rivits...blah blah blah to be permanent.


kUR31CYk4dg

QFT.

October
09-26-2011, 6:09 PM
LOL ninja edit.

cuz he was right haha

supersonic
09-26-2011, 6:26 PM
And many of us do not side with those who say it needs welds, glue epoxy, rivits...blah blah blah to be permanent.



You are correct. We sure don't!!!:cool:

shooterdude
09-27-2011, 6:01 AM
Why is this an issue? If you aren't 100% comfortable using a magazine that has been modified to only hold 10 rounds then don't use it. Buy yourself some 10 round steel or aluminum magazines and be done with it already.

because. Some people like the option of having this product so that they can limit their mags while they are in state and unlimit them when they are out instead of buying all new mags.


make sense?

WHich, can be done with any blocked mag in high cap body anyways. SOme easier than others. Since we concluded NOTHING is permanent.


Does NOT make sense. I'll quote myself, "Why is this an issue? If you aren't 100% comfortable using a magazine that has been modified to only hold 10 rounds then don't use it. Buy yourself some 10 round steel or aluminum magazines and be done with it already."

Since no one will ever win the argument about "permanent" other than the state if they WANT/NEED to and IF you are not 100% comfortable with a modified magazine then buy some extra magazines for in state use. If you can afford a rifle that costs $1000 +/- then another $25 for a couple of 10 round mags is a no-brainer if you are concerned about using modified magazines. You can ALWAYS use a few more mags.

gunsarefun
09-27-2011, 6:51 AM
Your epoxy, rivet and weld is just there to appease an Officer looking at it. Just like saying "sir" when addressing him/her. Thanking him/her for the ticket or warning. Its not about the law... its about bowing your head in respect to your masters.... and hoping they will not arrest you.

You are pretty much right.;) EPOXY is STUPID, it is indeed way overkill.

The difference for me, is that if I take 60 seconds to drill an 1/8" hole, and pop a rivet, there is little to no chance an officer will consider it anything but a legal mag. By chance if that failed, the odds would severely be in my favor with a jury with that tiny little 1/8" rivet in place giving the APPEARANCE of permanently altered.

Like I said, the difference between epoxy and a rivet, 60 more seconds with that 1/8" drill bit and my rivet is gone, if I wanted to go out of state or the law is eventually overturned.

To cap, my investment of a .10 cent rivet and 60 seconds of my time is worth knowing a LEO or DA can't waste my time on something that yes, I could most likely win anyway, but take up much more than 60 seconds of my time to do so.

415dog!
09-27-2011, 11:17 AM
To the Guy who asked for Leo opinion....a limiter is gtg in my book. If the mag only holds ten then I take it apart its no longer a mag...same goes for the guys who want to glue it etc...I can sit there on a t stop and tear apart your magazine. Once its in pieces its no longer a magazine. Just my opinion and not advice

Javi
09-27-2011, 11:31 AM
To the Guy who asked for Leo opinion....a limiter is gtg in my book. If the mag only holds ten then I take it apart its no longer a mag...same goes for the guys who want to glue it etc...I can sit there on a t stop and tear apart your magazine. Once its in pieces its no longer a magazine. Just my opinion and not advice

Well, I like your opinion :) I'd personally just stick with the plug and toss the old follower.

shooterdude
09-27-2011, 1:42 PM
To the Guy who asked for Leo opinion....a limiter is gtg in my book. If the mag only holds ten then I take it apart its no longer a mag...same goes for the guys who want to glue it etc...I can sit there on a t stop and tear apart your magazine. Once its in pieces its no longer a magazine. Just my opinion and not advice

Well, I like your opinion :) I'd personally just stick with the plug and toss the old follower.

Just like in my video :-)

XDshooter
09-27-2011, 2:26 PM
This is where everyone is getting hung up.

That part of the law does not apply to my magazines. I don't have to permanent anything, since it's a 10 round mag. If you remove any one piece of the magazine, then it's no longer a magazine.

I never started with a magazine that holds more than 10, so I didn't modify anything in the first place, therefore nothing needs to be permanent.


Hell, you can take a piece out of HK USP 40 mags, and they'll hold ~13 rounds. BUT, they are sold with every single USP 40 and it's even on the Cali Roster. BUT, once you take that piece out, it's no longer a magazine.

The prosecution would have argue some weird constructive possession if they still consider a magazine with missing parts a magazine. Then all rebuild kits would be illegal. SO BASICALLY NOT GONNA HAPPEN.


If you can dismantly without damaging the magazine (meaning it could be used later in a hi-cap format) then it's illegal. If the magazine has been PERMANENTLY altered so that taking out the block in the magazine would destroy the magazine beyond use, then you are good to go. I know 50% or more of the people here would disagree with me on this, but the law states that it must be PERMANENTLY blocked, and since this is technically a pretty big offense (although not so much for first time offenders) I would say that it's not worth it to cut any corners on it.


Check out ADDAX Tactical. They sell em for just under 30 bucks, last time I checked. Sucks to pay so much for em, but such is the price of being a gun owner in California I suppose.

Iggy
09-27-2011, 2:35 PM
If you can dismantly without damaging the magazine (meaning it could be used later in a hi-cap format) then it's illegal. If the magazine has been PERMANENTLY altered so that taking out the block in the magazine would destroy the magazine beyond use, then you are good to go.

I don't understand your logic here. Once you have taken a magazine apart it is just parts. You can not take constructive possession into account other wise magazine rebuilt kits would be illegal.

Plain and simple, if you have a magazine that can hold 10 rounds and you modify it from that state you are constructing a high capacity magazine. No where does it say that the magazine must be damaged to be considered permanent.

If you have a 10 round magazine and it stays that way, then it is permanent unless you modify it.

Now if you have a magazine that for some reason under normal use it turns into a high capacity magazine then it was not permanent. For example rivets on the side of a 20/30 round body. If the rivets fail and the follower is allowed to continue then the result was not permanent.

Sugacookie
09-27-2011, 2:38 PM
putting them inside of a hi cap mag to limit them down to ten, apparently, is not legal to do. According to magpul that is. This device is exactly what I was looking for so I could use 30 rounders and then take it out when I visit out of state. But of course, CA is pretty bent wrist about anything. Stupid.

To install the round limiter you replace the inside lower plate (dont know what it is called) I suppose you could trying them with out but id assume you would have feeding issues (the spring being loose)

hayaku
09-27-2011, 2:44 PM
If you can dismantly without damaging the magazine (meaning it could be used later in a hi-cap format) then it's illegal. If the magazine has been PERMANENTLY altered so that taking out the block in the magazine would destroy the magazine beyond use, then you are good to go. I know 50% or more of the people here would disagree with me on this, but the law states that it must be PERMANENTLY blocked, and since this is technically a pretty big offense (although not so much for first time offenders) I would say that it's not worth it to cut any corners on it.


Check out ADDAX Tactical. They sell em for just under 30 bucks, last time I checked. Sucks to pay so much for em, but such is the price of being a gun owner in California I suppose.


permanence is a state of mind and point in time... a competent metalworker could take that 10 round cproducts mag and weld another body on and extend it (and keep doing it to get to 100 rounds if he wanted). he could use the original spring and extend that too. he could put in a limiter to keep it 10 rounds max load and still keep it legal.

no matter what you do to it, you can still rebuild it. metal can be cut, welded, added to, repaired. same with the plastic/polymer stuff. all you need are the tools, know-how, and resources and permanence loses its definition.

permanent and "never ever" can't be control...

Wildeman_13
09-27-2011, 3:01 PM
All the legal versus not legal stuff aside. Just do what I do when I travel to AZ. I leave all my mags here and buy new cheap ones there. I then shoot them to my hearts content, disassemble them into parts, come back to CA, and either throw them into the box with the other parts kits, or build 10 rounders later. This way my stock of mags is always being replaced, if/when the mag law goes away I already have parts to build 30rnders, and if the zombies come I can always make use of more mags. ;)

October
09-27-2011, 4:44 PM
Any chance or word of ANY of these absurd non productive gun laws going away here?

dieselpower
09-27-2011, 4:55 PM
If you can dismantly without damaging the magazine (meaning it could be used later in a hi-cap format) then it's illegal. If the magazine has been PERMANENTLY altered so that taking out the block in the magazine would destroy the magazine beyond use, then you are good to go. I know 50% or more of the people here would disagree with me on this, but the law states that it must be PERMANENTLY blocked, and since this is technically a pretty big offense (although not so much for first time offenders) I would say that it's not worth it to cut any corners on it.


Check out ADDAX Tactical. They sell em for just under 30 bucks, last time I checked. Sucks to pay so much for em, but such is the price of being a gun owner in California I suppose.

and you need to understand that there isnt a single 10rd magazine you own that I can not alter to hold an 11th round... WITHOUT TOOLS!!!! Unless you have pinned, welded and or epoxied all of them. Glock magazines, XD magazines, 10 rd AR15 magazines, 1911 Wilson combat extended magazines,... all of them can be taken apart by using finger power alone
.

Drop 3 or 4 spring coils out the bottom and place the floor plate back on. The spring tension will hold the plate in place and with less spring in the magazine, it will hold more than 10. hence... its illegal by your standards and the floor plate needs to be welded in place to STOP this criminal behavior.

Therefore not a SINGLE 10 round magazine you own is LEGAL... they are 100% ILLEGAL by your standards. Please turn yourself into the nearest LEA for 12020 violations and 12276.1 violations if you use them in a fixed magazine locked rifle.

thank you for your support. we don't need criminals like you goofing things up for us. LOL I am joking... don't get all bent out. Just trying to prove a point. No magazine made is permanent. No magazine altered is permanently altered by your standards.

You need to re-read the law. PA = can not be altered back without triggering illegal manufacturing violations. Thats all it means.

October
09-27-2011, 5:26 PM
OWNED

aznanimekid
10-06-2011, 6:58 PM
has anyone used these and compared them to magblocks MCL? any advantage to either?

Madpyro
10-15-2011, 4:07 PM
Over 10 is over 10! 11 or 20, still the same. You make my brain hurt.

BuckleNose
10-15-2011, 4:17 PM
knowing is half the battle.:batman:

sirsloth
10-15-2011, 4:18 PM
Actually, you are just trying to say that I am stupid without sounding like an a**hole. Don't act like you're being polite right after you say something rude; your point was made before you called me a criminal and told me to go turn myself in and shut up... on top of which, I was speaking strictly about 10/20 mags, not 10 round mags with a trimmed spring to hold one more measly round (there is a big difference, legally, between 11 rounds and 20, wouldn't you agree? 11 rounds could be played off as an error, a fluke, where you did not intend to break the law, even if you did. There is no legal defense for having a 20 round mag capable of holding 20 rounds, as it is obviously an illegal configuration, and doesn't take any modifications to be illegal in its original configuration. You're comparing apples to oranges here, and the two aren't the same situation at all)

As it pertains to 10/20 mags (mags designed to hold 20 but have been altered to hold 10):

Countless times people have been prosecuted successfully for "misinterpreting the law" as it is stated. Remember, the judge is the one who interprets the law, not us. Judges are not machines or robots, they are unique individuals with unique thoughts and opinions. While it is their job to be as objective as possible, it's impossible for them all to think exactly alike and to execute the law exactly the same way each and every time for each respective situation. Some judges will say that blocking it is enough, where others will say that it isn't. Just the way things are. To think they can all connect their brains to some magical law book that will spit out the perfect answer each time is to play a cruel joke on yourself...

Each officer also has his/her own idea of how the law applies and none of them will give you a concrete answer about it unless they are standing there with their ticket book writing up a citation. They don't want to be blamed for you making a mistake so they don't want to advise you on anything. Not blaming them necessarily, as the law is after all very subjective... Which is why we have judges; to interpret the law.

So you can read the law all you want, and you can think you know the penal code backward and forward, but have fun telling the cops that while they write you a ticket/arrest you/whatever they do. You will probably get a good chuckle out of them; I wouldn't count on you changing their mind with your arguments.

The suggestions I gave were overkill so that no officer anywhere can possibly question your setup.

To sum it up, if you want to toe the line with respect to gun laws, then go ahead (and believe me, you are toeing the line much more with a 10/20 mag that IS configured to hold 20 than a 10 round mag that COULD be configured to hold more than 10). I am simply saying that if you can do something to remove any doubt in the arresting officer's mind, then you are doing yourself a favor. Pinning the mag so that it can never be used for anything higher than 10 rounds is just smart business when it comes to gun laws and California. Not saying you're stupid if you don't do this, you are just taking a chance with the law (something I don't consider to be worth the trouble).

To the original poster, sorry, I obviously didn't understand what you are talking about, as I thought you were talking about 10/20 mags (Mags designed for 20 but that can only hold 10). It is, after all, the name of the post...

:facepalm:

XDshooter
10-17-2011, 10:12 AM
If you can dismantle without damaging the magazine (meaning it could be used later in a hi-cap format) then it's illegal. If the magazine has been PERMANENTLY altered so that taking out the block in the magazine would destroy the magazine beyond use, then you are good to go. I know 50% or more of the people here would disagree with me on this, but the law states that it must be PERMANENTLY blocked, and since this is technically a pretty big offense (although not so much for first time offenders) I would say that it's not worth it to cut any corners on it.


Check out ADDAX Tactical. They sell em for just under 30 bucks, last time I checked. Sucks to pay so much for em, but such is the price of being a gun owner in California I suppose.


You are delusional. Nothing is permanent. Not OEM mags, not Addax Tactical mags, not anyone's mags.