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Spirit 1
09-24-2011, 7:43 PM
Hi all, wondering about the best shot on a bear with a handgun. Bears are around here and many times it's impossible to carry a long gun, or I don't happen to have one with me.

Knowing bears are real fast movers and lots of fat, flesh & fur, where's best to place the shot with a pistol? I've heard that deep center in the chest is about the only hope for any kind of quick stop, hoping to hit the heart.

Most often carrying a 9mm and thinking FMJ might be best for penetration. Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear. I know head shots are pretty much hopeless because of the thick skull.

What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm, where to shoot that critter? Assuming him charging....?

Thanks!

Oceanbob
09-24-2011, 8:18 PM
Shoot a bear with a nine and you will only make him madder. :43:

Bear Spray is a better option.

I really don't think most people have the shooting skill to kill a charging bear with one or two shots from a .44 magnum. Which I consider the MINIMUM caliber on a bear. Follow up shots from a .44 Magnum are difficult at best.

Bear Spray is a better option.

Of course, when backpacking most .44 magnums are heavy and who wants to have one in a holster while hiking..?..not me.

For me, "If" I go hiking or backpacking I carry a Glock 29 in 10MM. Sure, it's not a .44 magnum but it is better than a nine. 10 rounds of Bullalo Bore is what I would carry. :)


http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=219


Probably the second best option is to carry a .22 pistol and always go hiking with a slower partner. ;) As soon as the bear charges, shoot your partner in the leg and run. hehehe.

Be well
Bob

-hanko
09-24-2011, 8:20 PM
Hi all, wondering about the best shot on a bear with a handgun. Bears are around here and many times it's impossible to carry a long gun, or I don't happen to have one with me.

Knowing bears are real fast movers and lots of fat, flesh & fur, where's best to place the shot with a pistol? I've heard that deep center in the chest is about the only hope for any kind of quick stop, hoping to hit the heart.

Most often carrying a 9mm and thinking FMJ might be best for penetration. Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear. I know head shots are pretty much hopeless because of the thick skull.

What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm, where to shoot that critter? Assuming him charging....?

Thanks!
If, by "around here" you mean Montana, Idaho, Alaska, or any of the traditional brown bear haunts, you should already know a 9mm is useless...if not, learn.:rolleyes:

Otoh, if you're speaking of a location where brown bear don't live, you're asking about black bear. They are NOT fast movers. For blackies, you're better off with bear spray.

The only charge you might expect would be if you're ignorant enough to get between a sow and her cub.

I'd suggest learning about bear habits...you probably won't hit a "charging" bear and if you got lucky the 9mm is not the choice for bear. Grab some bear spray.

hth

-hanko

LovingTheYear1911
09-24-2011, 8:25 PM
30-06 pistol, duh!

Honestly speaking, I have seen bears while I go hiking and almost all the time, they will run away. Unless you enter a mama bears territory with her young near by, you will usually see their fury butts running away from you.

On the other hand, if you meet a big cat..........

Distro
09-24-2011, 8:50 PM
Bears are very socially awkward. Just ask the bear what they are doing there, and they will run away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk8pRJ7jV94

RealBarber
09-24-2011, 8:51 PM
S&W 500

osxgp
09-24-2011, 10:59 PM
S&W 500

Agreed. or the S&W .460 magnum

eqlzr
09-24-2011, 11:03 PM
Hi all, wondering about the best shot on a bear with a handgun.

Thanks!

A bear with a handgun is worth far more alive than dead.

chim-chim7
09-24-2011, 11:05 PM
+1. I have a 500 Magnum 4" barrel that I keep around for hiking in Bear country. I am not going to end up on the news dead from a Bear attack. I constantly train with it, and can shoot a 5 shot string pretty fast and accurately. I also make my own rounds tailored to my style. I would not consider anything less if your really serious about safety with a pistol. Nothing but a serious Magnum round is going to keep you from getting killed by a raging bear. The bear might die later on but not before he gets to your first. People who carry 9mm, .40,.45 are foolish.

Spirit 1
09-24-2011, 11:35 PM
Yeah, well, thanks guys. 8 replies & every one missed what was said in the introductory post:

"Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear."

"What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm,"

So I guess I never will find out where, in what part of their body, is the best & most effective place to shoot a bear.

Thanks anyways! I'll keep searching....

Jasonaspears
09-24-2011, 11:40 PM
I would think that if your only hope is a 9mm, I'd shoot for the head trying for a shot between the eyes.

Tiberius
09-24-2011, 11:57 PM
I doubt a head shot would work - I've heard of rounds deflecting off bear skulls (and off human skulls too - lots of variables there). In a no choice, get eaten or use the 9, I'd try for a throat shot - maybe you could nail the spine. Of course, you could just wait til you've been eaten, then shoot from the inside - at least you probably wouldn't miss. In that situation night sights would probably help.

If you're going to shoot a charging bear with a 9, you might want to save the last round for youself, for when the bear is getting medieval on yo ***.

Seriously, there's some good advice above. Blackies don't need shooting, and if you're in grizzly country, you're going to want something more. Otoh, there's always the golden BB theory, but you'd hate to bet on it. There's an internet story about a guy in Alaska who went for a walk, got charged by a grizzly and dropped it with a Ruger .454 Casull. The gun - a revolver - jammed after 4 shots due a high primer on one round. But 4 was enough for a weak and starving bear.

If it were me, and 9 was the only choice, I'd go FMJ, +P+ if I could, and avoid center mass and go throat/eye/head. I'd also be buying lottery tickets if I thought I was that lucky.

bob7122
09-24-2011, 11:58 PM
a bear would be on you before you could aim properly and get a nice shot that would go into his nose, eye, ear and kill him. bear spray ready to go would be best, it really works or either .454 casull/ 44 mag mare's leg that would be cool.

a bear charging you is quick and won't give you enough time to aim. bear spray is like a chemical shotgun that is super powerful.

hopefully someone can post a vid on how fast bears charge.

Remaxman
09-25-2011, 12:18 AM
If you get charged by a bear, the absolute best place to shoot with a 9mm would be directly into your own skull!
Don't bother shooting the bear as it will only make him more pissed off!!:oops:
My brother is a wildlife Biologist who has worked with bears and other large predators. He and others that have had experience with bear attacks will most likely agree anything smaller than a 357 mag is MUCH to small to try and stop a bear and even a 357 is questionable. Most would recommend either a 44, 460 or 500 magnum. I understand in a emergency situation you need use what you have, but if you intend to be anywhere in bear country I suggest you plan ahead and take the right weapon. Why take a chance?:stupid:

joelj320
09-25-2011, 12:18 AM
I say if a bear in on top of you because you pissed it off try shooting it in the mouth I guess

sevensix2x51
09-25-2011, 12:39 AM
My Canadian friend says to carry bear spray and wear some little jingle bells on your pack to make your presence known when hiking in bear country. He also says that the best way to know if you are in bear country is to look for their droppings. Supposedly, their scat is easy to identify. It smells strongly of pepper, and has little jingle bells in it.

On a more serious note, if a bear is really charging you and you have no choice but to defend yourself with a 9mm, I would probably just put every round I had into upper-center mass, you can probably sneak a few in just below the neck and above the ribcage, since they run on all fours. I would go for the FMJ, since I haven't ever seen a heavy hard-cast load for 9mm. I base this on absolutely nothing, however.

http://www.inberg.ca/hunting_essentials/black_bear_anatomy.htm

Synergy
09-25-2011, 12:48 AM
Yeah, well, thanks guys. 8 replies & every one missed what was said in the introductory post:

"Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear."

"What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm,"

So I guess I never will find out where, in what part of their body, is the best & most effective place to shoot a bear.

Thanks anyways! I'll keep searching....

Do you reload? Use the 147 grain ball and load for a +p power.

CK_32
09-25-2011, 1:13 AM
Best bet is getting a ak pistol and spraying the hell out of it.

Your better off throwing your 9mm at him and scaring him off. But like said above bear spray is best if anything. I wouldn't trust anything under a 50BMG for a for sure kill on one.

Dhena81
09-25-2011, 1:31 AM
Yeah, well, thanks guys. 8 replies & every one missed what was said in the introductory post:

"Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear."

"What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm,"

So I guess I never will find out where, in what part of their body, is the best & most effective place to shoot a bear.

Thanks anyways! I'll keep searching....

No one answered your question the way you wanted because its not a good idea. Besides what part of a 9mm not considered being effective against a bear did you not understand?


Personally I would rather shoot in the ground to scare. Rather than shoot a bear in this magical place which your going to be able to hit under extreme stress that will enable you to stop a bear with a 9mm.

Steve1968LS2
09-25-2011, 8:22 AM
If you stop a bear with a 9mm go buy some lotto tickets and then head straight to Vegas cause you're one lucky mofo..

-hanko
09-25-2011, 9:12 AM
Yeah, well, thanks guys. 8 replies & every one missed what was said in the introductory post:

"Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear."

"What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm,"

So I guess I never will find out where, in what part of their body, is the best & most effective place to shoot a bear.

Thanks anyways! I'll keep searching....
You're very welcome...:rolleyes:

WHERE are you hiking??

-hanko

JTROKS
09-25-2011, 9:23 AM
A bear charging and all I have is a wondernine... Assuming it's a brown bear facing me and my nine has normal/non-CA mags I would be aiming at the head/mouth/nose/eyes area of the bear. 15 rounds should slow him down some, but I'm gonna be ready to do my move, a quick skip to the left or right and ninja flip it to the next high spot. Now I'll be reloading during this move. Bear would have his mouth wide open at awe due to my display of agility and coolness factor. Then I'll double tap him through the mouth straight into his brain. How's that?

On a serious side. I wouldn't want to encounter a grizzly or brown bear and all I have with me is a 9mm pistol. You can get a used 5 shot pump shotgun for around $250 and a box of slugs for around $7. The best way to prevent a bear encounter is not to enter his domain, but if you insist then respect the bear. If he doesn't want you there then find another area to explore.

I love this youtube clip. I don't understand a word they are saying, but they all laughed at it in the end.

EcEzaDvftDk

epcii
09-25-2011, 9:24 AM
I don't know how true the claim is that a 9mm round will bounce off of a bear's skull. But, if anything, I'd say anywhere on its underside. More preferably, neck or chest. Neck to go for major arteries and maybe get into its chest, seeing as they walk on all fours. Chest for obvious reasons.

Spirit 1
09-25-2011, 10:20 AM
I don't know how true the claim is that a 9mm round will bounce off of a bear's skull. But, if anything, I'd say anywhere on its underside. More preferably, neck or chest. Neck to go for major arteries and maybe get into its chest, seeing as they walk on all fours. Chest for obvious reasons.


Thanks! That's what I've figured would be best, mouth, neck, chest. I read that their heart is very low in the chest cavity so maybe a pretty difficult shot. Mainly hoping to at least buy time to get away. Kind of hard to believe that a bear who has just been shot 10, 15, 20 times will still feel like Mr. Bada** & want to keep up the charges.

To others: I live in a remote area in bear & mountain lion country in central Cal.
Person was attacked by bear a couple of miles away last year or so, F&G also had to come & dispatch a vicious mother bear & 2 mean yearling cubs recently, another woman was extremely & severely mauled by a mountain lion a short while back.

I cannot have a long gun or large caliber gun with me at all times. Just like your own house & grounds, when you're outside doing stuff in the yard or whatever, you can't be constantly dragging along a .375 H&H rifle can you? I can park a 12 ga loaded with slugs or a large caliber rifle fairly near, but gotta get the 20-30+ feet to grab it!

Main reason I never asked this question before, though I really need the answer: because I knew lots of guys would roll out with nothing but scathing insults about my gross ignorance, incredible stupidity, amazing lack of knowledge about ballistics & firearms, plus extremely lame brain about bears in general. Well, ya didn't let me down on that one anyway!

I framed the first post to make it clearly known: there's absolutely no possibility of any other choice in personal defense under the circumstances. I will invariably find myself continually exposed to possible attacks on a daily basis. By your answers being the only answers, which are impossible to accomplish, then I'm supposed to leave the 9 in the house and forget about self defense!

'xcuse me, but that ain't real bright either, is it? I'd rather take my chances with the 9 & spare mag!

Thanks...

Lugiahua
09-25-2011, 10:33 AM
it's actually cheaper and easier to just buy a bear spray from nearby store than train how to kill a bear with 9mm...

Corbin Dallas
09-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Hi all, wondering about the best shot on a bear with a 9mm. Bears are around here and many times it's impossible to carry a long gun, or I don't happen to have one with me.

What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm, where to shoot that critter? Assuming him charging....?

Thanks!

Get bear spray and carry a 10mm with extra magazines and some doubletap or buffalo bore HOT rounds.

You'd probably be better off throwing your 9mm at the bear over shooting at it with a 9mm...

:facepalm:

KracknCorn
09-25-2011, 10:57 AM
Thanks! That's what I've figured would be best, mouth, neck, chest. I read that their heart is very low in the chest cavity so maybe a pretty difficult shot. Mainly hoping to at least buy time to get away. Kind of hard to believe that a bear who has just been shot 10, 15, 20 times will still feel like Mr. Bada** & want to keep up the charges.

To others: I live in a remote area in bear & mountain lion country in central Cal.
Person was attacked by bear a couple of miles away last year or so, F&G also had to come & dispatch a vicious mother bear & 2 mean yearling cubs recently, another woman was extremely & severely mauled by a mountain lion a short while back.

I cannot have a long gun or large caliber gun with me at all times. Just like your own house & grounds, when you're outside doing stuff in the yard or whatever, you can't be constantly dragging along a .375 H&H rifle can you? I can park a 12 ga loaded with slugs or a large caliber rifle fairly near, but gotta get the 20-30+ feet to grab it!

Main reason I never asked this question before, though I really need the answer: because I knew lots of guys would roll out with nothing but scathing insults about my gross ignorance, incredible stupidity, amazing lack of knowledge about ballistics & firearms, plus extremely lame brain about bears in general. Well, ya didn't let me down on that one anyway!

I framed the first post to make it clearly known: there's absolutely no possibility of any other choice in personal defense under the circumstances. I will invariably find myself continually exposed to possible attacks on a daily basis. By your answers being the only answers, which are impossible to accomplish, then I'm supposed to leave the 9 in the house and forget about self defense!

'xcuse me, but that ain't real bright either, is it? I'd rather take my chances with the 9 & spare mag!

Thanks...

Your not gonna get a definite answer with your question... unless someone hunts bears with 9mms on a constant basis. Bears are burly creatures and no matter what you want to think a 9mm can or can not do, it doesn't change the fact it's a little round. You can probably kill it eventually, but when you're in a bear attack, you want to stop it immediately. Whether the myth of bouncing bullet off the skull is true or not, you may not even hit it's head when it's charging. A body shot with a 500s&w will probably take it down or severely hurt it way more than a 9mm. Hey, it's your life and you can feel comfortable with whatever caliber you choose, but don't think a bear is going to just stand there and let you take the time to aim at specific parts.

ginman
09-25-2011, 11:05 AM
If a 9mm is only option, aim for the throat or strait at the nose or eyes. I think that's your only hope really. Hitting the bear in a place that forces it to stop.

Spirit 1
09-25-2011, 1:23 PM
If a 9mm is only option, aim for the throat or strait at the nose or eyes. I think that's your only hope really. Hitting the bear in a place that forces it to stop.

And thanks for that too! That's makes 2 useful answers to the question and both similar, also what I'd figured was best to do too. Hope I never have to find out what works or doesn't.

aghauler
09-25-2011, 1:39 PM
My Canadian friend says to carry bear spray and wear some little jingle bells on your pack to make your presence known when hiking in bear country. He also says that the best way to know if you are in bear country is to look for their droppings. Supposedly, their scat is easy to identify. It smells strongly of pepper, and has little jingle bells in it.

http://www.inberg.ca/hunting_essentials/black_bear_anatomy.htm

Must have seen this poster:
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss202/aghauler32/Bear%20s/cid_C8FE3A8AD63746139290BCDC913A397.jpg

I met two bears at the corner of my garage one afternoon, I was practically run over by them, I mometarily thought "I can scare these guys off" then realized "yo momma" was BEHIND me somewhere (she is a 400-500 pounder and a fast runner, had just gone around the corner of the next house) at which point I retreated to my front porch and let the two 100+pounder kids pass through.

thenodnarb
09-25-2011, 2:49 PM
Must have seen this poster:
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss202/aghauler32/Bear%20s/cid_C8FE3A8AD63746139290BCDC913A397.jpg


so many hilarious posts in this thread. This has got to be the funniest. Although I hear that black bears are more likely to actually eat you than grizzlies.

I like this one:
http://7.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/94/55/collegehumor.82e4c4fb99417cf8f831498d1963c344.jpg

Cali-Shooter
09-25-2011, 2:54 PM
If I don't have anything up to or stronger than a .44 magnum, I'd just carry bear spray and a .357 magnum for backup.

I wouldn't be caught dead out in the Sierras or anywhere like that without at least bear spray.

MrOrange
09-25-2011, 4:01 PM
Thanks! That's what I've figured would be best, mouth, neck, chest. I read that their heart is very low in the chest cavity so maybe a pretty difficult shot. Mainly hoping to at least buy time to get away. Kind of hard to believe that a bear who has just been shot 10, 15, 20 times will still feel like Mr. Bada** & want to keep up the charges.

To others: I live in a remote area in bear & mountain lion country in central Cal.
Person was attacked by bear a couple of miles away last year or so, F&G also had to come & dispatch a vicious mother bear & 2 mean yearling cubs recently, another woman was extremely & severely mauled by a mountain lion a short while back.

I cannot have a long gun or large caliber gun with me at all times. Just like your own house & grounds, when you're outside doing stuff in the yard or whatever, you can't be constantly dragging along a .375 H&H rifle can you? I can park a 12 ga loaded with slugs or a large caliber rifle fairly near, but gotta get the 20-30+ feet to grab it!

Main reason I never asked this question before, though I really need the answer: because I knew lots of guys would roll out with nothing but scathing insults about my gross ignorance, incredible stupidity, amazing lack of knowledge about ballistics & firearms, plus extremely lame brain about bears in general. Well, ya didn't let me down on that one anyway!

I framed the first post to make it clearly known: there's absolutely no possibility of any other choice in personal defense under the circumstances. I will invariably find myself continually exposed to possible attacks on a daily basis. By your answers being the only answers, which are impossible to accomplish, then I'm supposed to leave the 9 in the house and forget about self defense!

'xcuse me, but that ain't real bright either, is it? I'd rather take my chances with the 9 & spare mag!

Thanks...
I misread the original hypothetical question, and was ready to come to your defense and tell you that braining him is your only choice, since you can blow the heart completely out of an animal with a long arm and they can still run 50 yards before collapsing, until I saw this post.

This takes "NOTHING BUT A 9!!" out of the argument. "there's absolutely no possibility of any other choice in personal defense under the circumstances" - how does that happen? It's not like you just accidentally wandered through with your standard city-slicker defense piece, which would also render the question of which load moot. No, you're occupying a known danger area, and should prepare yourself with some forethought. "I will invariably find myself continually exposed to possible attacks on a daily basis."

Even if you were just visiting somebody in that area, you should pack accordingly. Or are you subject to some sort of court order that prohibits you from using anything but a 9x19mm? Even if that is what's on your CCW, that doesn't preclude your carrying something heavier when out & about in rural areas.

"I'm supposed to leave the 9 in the house and forget about self defense!" I'm not aware that it's illegal to use a .44 or .454 for SD against human aggressors. Is this another Spirit 1 - specific legal restraint?

BayouBullets
09-25-2011, 6:17 PM
Yeah, well, thanks guys. 8 replies & every one missed what was said in the introductory post:

"Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear."

"What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm,"

So I guess I never will find out where, in what part of their body, is the best & most effective place to shoot a bear.

Thanks anyways! I'll keep searching....

The one good thing about 9mm, if that's all you've got, is the speed of follow-up shots. Don't believe anyone who tells you a 9mm won't penetrate a bear's skull. Unless the bear's skull is more than 6 inches thick, the 9mm will enter the brain. Aim for the center of the charging face above the black of the nose and keep firing as soon as your front sight returns to the bear's face. If you actually manage to get a shot into the semi-circle above the nose (draw a semi-circle with the flat bottom at the black of the nose extending as wide as the outer edge of the eye-seockets), it's over. Even with a 9mm. BTW, if loading for bear protection be sure to use 124 gr FMJ +P.
--Back in the old days, the wisdom was that the ideal handgun round for brown bear defense was .357 magnum, NOT .44 magnum. The reason was the balance between power and accuracy, and the speed advantage for the second and third shot. The basic idea was ( and I believe still should be) that no hand-gunner should count on taking out a charging bear with one shot. Thus disqualifying .44 magnum because recovery time from each shoot was just too slow. Most shooters can easily fire 3 accurate rounds of .357 for every two in .44 mag. With novice shooters, that's even more true. More hits penetrating vital areas like the brain (or into the chest cavity id you miss the head) = more chance to bring the bear down faster.

Anchors
09-25-2011, 6:27 PM
A bear with a handgun is worth far more alive than dead.

Hence the right to arm bears!

mif_slim
09-25-2011, 7:09 PM
Honestly, we just brought home a 400~ lbs bear and the thickest part of the bear is the neck and the butt. The ribs would be the best place to shoot a bear with a 9mm IF you have to. It was measured to be less then 1.75" with hide/fat/meat/bone before hitting vitals. If the reports of FBI are saying a 9mm penetrate 12" of ballistics then that is plenty of penetration. The question is, how fast will it die after getting hit in the vitals?

From my hunting experience, it depends on the bears condition. We've done heart shot and they run hundreds of yards and we've made the same shot and it's a DRT.

So, all these people telling you to shoot yourself first either has never been hunting before, has been hunting but uses the biggest baddest caliber or, regurgitating what they've read online.

I'm not advising you to use a 9mm but since you mention it I'm just answering your question.

Like some has said though, buy a bear spray because it's better. It's only 40 bucks and worth every penny.

Goodluck and be safe.

jben
09-25-2011, 7:15 PM
:yawn:Why are people so freaked out about black bears in California?

DFG has recorded 12 (twelve!!!) bear attacks since 1980.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/bear/bear_incidents.html :willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Go ahead and carry your 9mm for bears. It is VERY VERY unlikely you'd need it so it doesn't matter that it won't help. And, it will help for the 2 legged animals that are likely to be the real problem.

Spirit 1
09-25-2011, 9:07 PM
The one good thing about 9mm, if that's all you've got, is the speed of follow-up shots. Don't believe anyone who tells you a 9mm won't penetrate a bear's skull. Unless the bear's skull is more than 6 inches thick, the 9mm will enter the brain. Aim for the center of the charging face above the black of the nose and keep firing as soon as your front sight returns to the bear's face. If you actually manage to get a shot into the semi-circle above the nose (draw a semi-circle with the flat bottom at the black of the nose extending as wide as the outer edge of the eye-seockets), it's over. Even with a 9mm. BTW, if loading for bear protection be sure to use 124 gr FMJ +P.
--Back in the old days, the wisdom was that the ideal handgun round for brown bear defense was .357 magnum, NOT .44 magnum. The reason was the balance between power and accuracy, and the speed advantage for the second and third shot. The basic idea was ( and I believe still should be) that no hand-gunner should count on taking out a charging bear with one shot. Thus disqualifying .44 magnum because recovery time from each shoot was just too slow. Most shooters can easily fire 3 accurate rounds of .357 for every two in .44 mag. With novice shooters, that's even more true. More hits penetrating vital areas like the brain (or into the chest cavity id you miss the head) = more chance to bring the bear down faster.


THANK YOU!

That's much what I was thinking, but I wanted more opinions to verify. A friend regularly hunted bear with a .357 [handloads] in CA for years, but after a close call said he was switching up to .44 mag. He wasn't available to ask this question I posted as we both moved, not in contact.

Spirit 1
09-25-2011, 9:25 PM
I misread the original hypothetical question, and was ready to come to your defense and tell you that braining him is your only choice, since you can blow the heart completely out of an animal with a long arm and they can still run 50 yards before collapsing, until I saw this post.

This takes "NOTHING BUT A 9!!" out of the argument. "there's absolutely no possibility of any other choice in personal defense under the circumstances" - how does that happen? It's not like you just accidentally wandered through with your standard city-slicker defense piece, which would also render the question of which load moot. No, you're occupying a known danger area, and should prepare yourself with some forethought. "I will invariably find myself continually exposed to possible attacks on a daily basis."

Even if you were just visiting somebody in that area, you should pack accordingly. Or are you subject to some sort of court order that prohibits you from using anything but a 9x19mm? Even if that is what's on your CCW, that doesn't preclude your carrying something heavier when out & about in rural areas.

"I'm supposed to leave the 9 in the house and forget about self defense!" I'm not aware that it's illegal to use a .44 or .454 for SD against human aggressors. Is this another Spirit 1 - specific legal restraint?

It was all explained in my prior posts, but: I LIVE in bear country. There are bears where I live.

I cannot lug along a rifle or 12ga all the time, everywhere I go, whatever I'm doing outdoors on my property.

The largest calibre handgun I own is 9mm. I don't have the option$ of purcha$ing a larger calibre. I have rifle or shotgun, but cannot drag one around for everything I do, continually.

In first post I made clear that I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from the best choice.

In first post I asked one fundamental, basic, simple question, after explaining the situation:

IF I HAVE NO OTHER DEFENSE AVAILABLE AGAINST BEAR EXCEPT A 9MM PISTOL > > > > WHERE'S THE BEST SHOT PLACEMENT?

Stupid me allright, because I actually hoped for friendly & helpful replies from fellow forum members. The very large majority of replies were not helpful at all. Instead they are undeserved slap in the face insults intended to ridicule.

Spirit 1
09-25-2011, 9:31 PM
Honestly, we just brought home a 400~ lbs bear and the thickest part of the bear is the neck and the butt. The ribs would be the best place to shoot a bear with a 9mm IF you have to. It was measured to be less then 1.75" with hide/fat/meat/bone before hitting vitals. If the reports of FBI are saying a 9mm penetrate 12" of ballistics then that is plenty of penetration. The question is, how fast will it die after getting hit in the vitals?

From my hunting experience, it depends on the bears condition. We've done heart shot and they run hundreds of yards and we've made the same shot and it's a DRT.

So, all these people telling you to shoot yourself first either has never been hunting before, has been hunting but uses the biggest baddest caliber or, regurgitating what they've read online.

I'm not advising you to use a 9mm but since you mention it I'm just answering your question.

Like some has said though, buy a bear spray because it's better. It's only 40 bucks and worth every penny.

Goodluck and be safe.

Thank you very much for a very polite & helpful answer! Bear spray is in the plan, as soon as finances cooperate....

Thanks!

zfields
09-25-2011, 9:57 PM
Id carry a peice of steak.


Throw the steak at it to confuse it, then run to grab your shotgun thats 30-40 feet away.

Cali-Shooter
09-25-2011, 10:18 PM
Come to think of it, a 12 gauge with slugs would have a decent fighting chance at a bear.

The problem? It's most likely going to end up being camp defense at most, since it's heavy as f**k and you're not likely to lug a 10 lb longarm for hiking.

resident-shooter
09-25-2011, 11:12 PM
this thread is funny. OP is saying "I know 9mm would be useless, so what do I do with it?" DIE WITH IT

Echidin
09-26-2011, 12:46 AM
:yawn:Why are people so freaked out about black bears in California?

DFG has recorded 12 (twelve!!!) bear attacks since 1980.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/bear/bear_incidents.html :willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Go ahead and carry your 9mm for bears. It is VERY VERY unlikely you'd need it so it doesn't matter that it won't help. And, it will help for the 2 legged animals that are likely to be the real problem.



Probably because bears are opportunistic and no one wants to be reported as being the 13th black bear attack in CA. The number of black bear attacks in North America are still much higher than the 12 reported in the state of California. Black bears don't have nearly the reputation for attacking people as brown bears, but attacks can and do still occur.

Just a few days ago I returned from a backpacking trip in Sequoia National Park where a 200-250 lbs. black bear popped out on to the trail about 30-40 ft. ahead of us. The bear seemed unimpressed with all the hooting and hollering we were making. Eventually it just continued slowly on its way. You're right in saying that it is very unlikely you'll need to use a firearm on a black bear as I didn't have to unholster my weapon the entire time I was in the park, but it still never hurts to be prepared. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

A bear in the wild is still quite a thing to see if the closest to seeing a live bear has been the zoo. It is really an animal that commands respect. My real concern while in the park were cougar. You may never see them coming until they're already on you.

tuna quesadilla
09-26-2011, 1:28 AM
Probably because bears are opportunistic and no one wants to be reported as being the 13th black bear attack in CA. The number of black bear attacks in North America are still much higher than the 12 reported in the state of California. Black bears don't have nearly the reputation for attacking people as brown bears, but attacks can and do still occur.

Just a few days ago I returned from a backpacking trip in Sequoia National Park where a 200-250 lbs. black bear popped out on to the trail about 30-40 ft. ahead of us. The bear seemed unimpressed with all the hooting and hollering we were making. Eventually it just continued slowly on its way. You're right in saying that it is very unlikely you'll need to use a firearm on a black bear as I didn't have to unholster my weapon the entire time I was in the park, but it still never hurts to be prepared. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

A bear in the wild is still quite a thing to see if the closest to seeing a live bear has been the zoo. It is really an animal that commands respect. My real concern while in the park were cougar. You may never see them coming until they're already on you.

Yup. It's like the statistic for lightning strikes. They say that getting hit by lightning is incredibly rare. The people who *think* they're smart will look at that statistic and say "Well then I guess it's safe for me to be outside in a lightning storm" while everybody else runs for cover. And guess what... that one guy who THINKS he's being smart and playing the statistics, is the one guy who ends up being hit by lightning because he was the one standing out there. :facepalm: The point is, I don't really care how rare some folks say it is; I'm going to prepare myself for it anyways. :)

-hanko
09-26-2011, 10:48 AM
interesting way to stop a brown bear attack...

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/sep/18/gutsy-wrangler-huge-horse-save-boy-from-charging/

Yeah, i know it's ot from the firearm standpoint...

-hanko

Quickdraw Mcgraw
09-26-2011, 11:14 AM
Bear spray for sure! $30 is pretty cheep for some piece of mind. Get the kind that comes with the belt holster!

It works amazing well on the two legged predators also! I've seen it clear a whole Bar!

redcliff
09-26-2011, 7:32 PM
Aim for the nose of the bear if hes charging. The sinus cavity provides a fairly large openning to the brain and a miss can hit the spine or other tender places like his eye.

And although no one would recommend a 9mm for bear protection, Grizzly bears have been killed by them before..so if luck is on your side you might survive. On the other hand they've been known to survive 8 hits from a 30-06 or larger and live for years.

sequoia_nomad
09-26-2011, 7:40 PM
Bear spray for sure! $30 is pretty cheep for some piece of mind. Get the kind that comes with the belt holster!
!

Better hope it's not windy. If a 9mm is all you have, 115 grains will fly a lot truer through a breeze than a vaporized liquid, which could just as well get blown back into your face or onto your companions.

osxgp
09-27-2011, 12:20 AM
This is not an easy question to answer because a 9mm would most likely only piss a bear off, regardless of shot placement. Your better off playing dead and saving your ammo.

pacifico23
09-27-2011, 12:44 AM
I don think there's many places in California where bear spray wouldn't be a better option. Pluse persboally i think it would be tragic to kill the animal if there was a non lethal weapon like the bear spray that worked more effectively.

But if you live near like huger freaking brown bears and grizzlies. I would to carry one too. Alaskan Super Redhawk .454 Casul would be my choice. I think that is one of the most awesome revolvers. One day I shall have.

7x57
09-27-2011, 1:28 AM
Yeah, well, thanks guys. 8 replies & every one missed what was said in the introductory post:

...

So I guess I never will find out where, in what part of their body, is the best & most effective place to shoot a bear.


You missed what every one of those replies was telling you...you can't hit any particular spot on a charging bear anyway.

7x57

Sleighter
09-27-2011, 4:57 AM
I understand your question and limitation of owning only a 9mm, and not being able to purchase another caliber. But from my research it seems that bear spray has proven to be far more effective at stopping a bear attack than almost any firearm.

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf

http://news.byu.edu/archive08-mar-bearspray.aspx

The BYU study is by a well respected bear expert and draws upon the largest sample of data available. It shows that bear spray is effective 92% of the time while guns are effective only 67%.

If bear spray were only $30-40, I would invest in that before the ammo needed to carry your 9mm for bear defense.

You've mentioned that bear spray is "part of your plan" and that you're saving up for it. I would suggest you make it your primary plan and only draw your 9 once the can is empty. If money is really holding you back from buying the spray I'm sure enough Calguns members would paypal gift you enough funds to protect yourself.

Although your hypothetical is interesting, you've asserted that it isn't hypothetical, but a real situation. In that case, take the realistic advice and use the spray. Until you can reply with why that isn't feasible, it's hard to provide better advice about target area selection.

skyscraper
09-27-2011, 7:35 AM
Yeah, well, thanks guys. 8 replies & every one missed what was said in the introductory post:

"Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear."

"What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm,"

So I guess I never will find out where, in what part of their body, is the best & most effective place to shoot a bear.

Thanks anyways! I'll keep searching....
No, you received good advice (bear spray) you just failed to accept it.

starsnuffer
09-27-2011, 9:17 AM
The trick to surviving a bear attack is to always travel with a fat friend. You don't have to be fast, just don't be the slowest in your group.

-W

Remaxman
09-27-2011, 11:38 AM
Aim for the nose of the bear if hes charging. The sinus cavity provides a fairly large openning to the brain and a miss can hit the spine or other tender places like his eye.

And although no one would recommend a 9mm for bear protection, Grizzly bears have been killed by them before..so if luck is on your side you might survive. On the other hand they've been known to survive 8 hits from a 30-06 or larger and live for years.

Aim for the eye or nose of a charging bear????????????
You must be joking, right?
Get the damn bear spray and be done with it.
At least with that you'll stand a chance for survival.
Hitting a 2 inch target at 25 yards is hard enough when it's on paper in a range and not moving. Put that 2 inch target on a charging, bears head running at you at 35 miles an hour w/teeth chomping, your hearts beating outa your chest and your about to Sh_ _ your pants? Forget it! Try that...and your gonna die...:facepalm:

JeremyS
09-27-2011, 11:51 AM
Main reason I never asked this question before, though I really need the answer: because I knew lots of guys would roll out with nothing but scathing insults about my gross ignorance, incredible stupidity, amazing lack of knowledge about ballistics & firearms, plus extremely lame brain about bears in general....

I framed the first post to make it clearly known: there's absolutely no possibility of any other choice in personal defense under the circumstances. I will invariably find myself continually exposed to possible attacks on a daily basis. By your answers being the only answers, which are impossible to accomplish, then I'm supposed to leave the 9 in the house and forget about self defense!...
You aren't accepting the advice you're being given. Nearly everyone in the thread has told you that bear spray is more effective than a firearm unless you're packing an extreme magnum caliber. You want to use your 9mm, even though people are telling you that there is a cheap, easily-carried, and superior alternative.

If you really want to shoot at a bear, this ammo from double tap (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=268) would probably be my first choice, followed by this from buffalo bore (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=225).

Unless it was actually in the process of charging me, I'd give it a few warning shots if I felt threatened. Most black bears aren't aggressive and will run from you if you scare them or often just open noticing you.




...you could always be like Bella Twin (do a google search) and kill a record grizzly with a single shot .22:

http://www.angelfire.com/on2/LandOwner/images/GRIZLEY2.JPG

epcii
09-27-2011, 12:19 PM
The trick to surviving a bear attack is to always travel with a fat friend. You don't have to be fast, just don't be the slowest in your group.

-W

Lol, shows where your loyalty lies.

Spirit 1
09-27-2011, 8:15 PM
Too many replies now to answer individually.

To those with further helpful advice, thank you. Also thanks especially for the offer of assistance, Sleighter. The best spray runs about $60-$75+ with shipping. I believe this one is best, and an interesting website with info, pics & exciting video:

http://www.udap.com/product.htm

For what it's worth I've lived in California bear country much of my life, which is many years. Entirely familiar with size, speed, temperment and a lot of bear's habits. Friends who hunt bear with handgun told me where to shoot, IF you are hunting and can pick an easy bullet placement. What I was never told is where is best to place a bullet in a frontal attack, to disable quickly or kill. Simple question, very simple question. I innocently thought I could find out from more experienced friends here.

To those who simply piled on more insults, the joke's actually on you. Instead of wisdom or cleverness or experience all you really showed was inability to read & comprehend the simple facts & question I wrote out plainly in my posts. I asked for information, not opinions.

The insults are a real shame on the community here, which is supposed to be like minded friends gathered together for like minded discussions. Because that was the majority of replies here I won't be taking member Sleighter up on his offer, but thanks very much anyway.

Jasonaspears
09-27-2011, 8:37 PM
Too many replies now to answer individually.

To those with further helpful advice, thank you. Also thanks especially for the offer of assistance, Sleighter. The best spray runs about $60-$75+ with shipping. I believe this one is best, and an interesting website with info, pics & exciting video:

http://www.udap.com/product.htm

For what it's worth I've lived in California bear country much of my life, which is many years. Entirely familiar with size, speed, temperment and a lot of bear's habits. Friends who hunt bear with handgun told me where to shoot, IF you are hunting and can pick an easy bullet placement. What I was never told is where is best to place a bullet in a frontal attack, to disable quickly or kill. Simple question, very simple question. I innocently thought I could find out from more experienced friends here.

To those who simply piled on more insults, the joke's actually on you. Instead of wisdom or cleverness or experience all you really showed was inability to read & comprehend the simple facts & question I wrote out plainly in my posts. I asked for information, not opinions.

The insults are a real shame on the community here, which is supposed to be like minded friends gathered together for like minded discussions. Because that was the majority of replies here I won't be taking member Sleighter up on his offer, but thanks very much anyway.

I think you've missed all of the helpful advice you've been given. Sure, if you only have a 9mm available there have been a number of posts outlining where to shoot but if your life is really at risk as you are inferring, get the bear spray or a larger caliber weapon. Odds are much greater that if you keep the 9mm, you'll end up being bear poo.

Spirit 1
09-27-2011, 9:54 PM
I think you've missed all of the helpful advice you've been given. Sure, if you only have a 9mm available there have been a number of posts outlining where to shoot but if your life is really at risk as you are inferring, get the bear spray or a larger caliber weapon. Odds are much greater that if you keep the 9mm, you'll end up being bear poo.


No, sir, and I take that as an insult too! A person would have to be a mumbling, stumbling chin dribbling idiot to not be able to understand what people were staying in their posts.

What's missed is that I already covered the fact that 9mm is not the best choice IN MY FIRST POST! Already explained! Then repeated! But... ? ? ?

So what's so blasted cool about going out of one's way to insult a fellow member of Calguns forum? Yes, people may have advice, great, give it! But that's no excuse for scathing insults, no excuse at all.

Jasonaspears
09-27-2011, 10:04 PM
Any chance that maybe you're taking this a bit too personally? I haven't read any scathing insults to you...just suggestions. Now go find a charging bear and let us know what it really takes to stop him with your 9mm...I want to know.

JeremyS
09-27-2011, 11:24 PM
Bear sprays under $30:


http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=605484

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=413150

chim-chim7
09-28-2011, 12:06 AM
9mm is not the best choice, that being said all I have is this darn Ruger 9. How do I stop a large bear with it........answer you don't. You run your arse off. In a high stress event trying to shoot a fast moving target with critical shot placement is not easy. Even professionals that constantly train for this have trouble. You see a Bear you slowly walk backwards, don't look it in the eyes. If it advances you run your arse off. Save the gun for a last ditch effort if he catches you. Then you can unload on him point blank and hit your marks. Run your arse off!

ALSystems
09-28-2011, 3:15 AM
I'd go for bear spray like the others have suggested.

As far as the 9mm handgun, I don't think even if I hit a charging bear with a full magazine of 9mm bullets would stop it in time. Though I might get lucky.

Maybe a bigger hoster to carry a more effective firearm would work.

Maybe it's easier to just shoot your buddy in the leg to offer as bear bait. :rolleyes:

redcliff
09-28-2011, 4:54 AM
Aim for the eye or nose of a charging bear????????????
You must be joking, right?
Get the damn bear spray and be done with it.
At least with that you'll stand a chance for survival.
Hitting a 2 inch target at 25 yards is hard enough when it's on paper in a range and not moving. Put that 2 inch target on a charging, bears head running at you at 35 miles an hour w/teeth chomping, your hearts beating outa your chest and your about to Sh_ _ your pants? Forget it! Try that...and your gonna die...:facepalm:

I was responding to the OP's question of where to aim with a handgun, not the use of bear spray. My advice was to aim for the nose (not the eye). Facepalm all you'd like but where would you aim if that was your only choice of a defense weapon?

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll137/ranjaz/BlackBearSkull0012mjt.jpg

supersonic
09-28-2011, 6:57 AM
Hi all, wondering about the best shot on a bear with a handgun. Bears are around here and many times it's impossible to carry a long gun, or I don't happen to have one with me.

Knowing bears are real fast movers and lots of fat, flesh & fur, where's best to place the shot with a pistol? I've heard that deep center in the chest is about the only hope for any kind of quick stop, hoping to hit the heart.

Most often carrying a 9mm and thinking FMJ might be best for penetration. Yes, I'm fully aware that 9mm is far from being a good choice for bear. I know head shots are pretty much hopeless because of the thick skull.

What I'm asking is when one doesn't have the choice, has only 9mm, where to shoot that critter? Assuming him charging....?

Thanks!

Actually, since I doubt anyone has mentioned this yet, there IS a spot you could (theoretically) hit that would stop ANY bear with that 9mm. But the question will remain: who on Earth is a good enough shot? Because a 115-147 grain bullet going 1100fps+ right in the balls is going to render any male species helpless (if not speechless!)......oh, wait: what if it is a female that is charging us? DOH!:eek::p

truep
09-28-2011, 8:13 AM
There are documented cases of a bear being shot dead with one shot from a Ruger Alaskan at close range.

Spirit 1
09-28-2011, 2:23 PM
9mm is not the best choice, that being said all I have is this darn Ruger 9. How do I stop a large bear with it........answer you don't. You run your arse off. In a high stress event trying to shoot a fast moving target with critical shot placement is not easy. Even professionals that constantly train for this have trouble. You see a Bear you slowly walk backwards, don't look it in the eyes. If it advances you run your arse off. Save the gun for a last ditch effort if he catches you. Then you can unload on him point blank and hit your marks. Run your arse off!


Disabled: cannot run, and wouldn't anyway.

Bears charge at hi speed, some say up to 60MPH or faster! Humans run about 17-20+ mph max. A neighbor couple driving in their car clocked a bear running up the road ahead to get away from the car. They clocked it at 50+ MPH, and it ran for about 1/8-1/4 mile. Finally threw itself up against a bank on roadside face first, as if to climb, but couldn't. They drove on by.

When charged it's better to back away fairly quickly, but not pose a threat or run. If you turn & run the bear will likely pursue & take you down from behind. Better to change direction of walking to angle away from bear at 90*. No threat to him at all, but he sees you leaving, problem often solved.

From many reports, anything you can do to make yourself look larger may help, jumping up on a rock or stump, spreading out your coat and arms etc. Bears in their social life use this bluff showing of size this same way to scare off other bears, part of their habits. I've done it and it worked so far. So far....

If the bear isn't close it usually helps to throw stuff like rocks or big sticks and shout, make a ruckus. They usually leave, slowly. Blacks aren't normally all that aggressive.

None of that applies to Grizzlies, but they're virtually extinct in Cali by most reports. Here it's smallish black bears. Many will hunt them with .357 mags.

The last one that tried to climb in my window about 3 feet away from the porterhouse steak I was eating measured 7 1/2' to 8' tall on his haunches, with head roughly 18" wide [including all the fur of course.] So probably a few hundred lbs.

Do yourself a favor and don't ever try to outrun a bear. Watch the videos on that bear spray link I posted. Fascinating & very, very scary!

Spirit 1
09-28-2011, 2:30 PM
Bear sprays under $30:


http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=605484

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=413150

Thank you, Jeremy!

I usually have a couple of full cans of Berryman's carb spray cleaner at my worbench out doors, a couple of feet away. If you've ever gotten even one drop of that in your eye you'll know it's probably an excellent bear spray, and shoots at least 6' or so.

They have an incredibly keen sense of smell, meaning their sensitive olfactory is much more easily offended by such sprays.

7x57
09-28-2011, 2:33 PM
There are documented cases of a bear being shot dead with one shot from a Ruger Alaskan at close range.

There is a documented case of a charging mamma grizzly being shot dead with one shot from a .410 loaded with birdshot. Still, I don't recommend carrying .410 birdshot loads for bear protection.

7x57

Spirit 1
09-28-2011, 2:43 PM
I was responding to the OP's question of where to aim with a handgun, not the use of bear spray. My advice was to aim for the nose (not the eye). Facepalm all you'd like but where would you aim if that was your only choice of a defense weapon?

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll137/ranjaz/BlackBearSkull0012mjt.jpg

Excellent, thanks!

Many seem to forget that while 9mm is not the greatest powerhouse, there were continuous complaints about it some years back. Many 'authorities' said it was a poor choice for protection because of a common problem of OVER-PENETRATION! That is, in FMJ it just kept going & going! They complained that too often it was a GST&T, or 'gun shot through & through' and the spent round exited target & kept going, possibly injuring others.

Even black bears have several, like 6-10 inches of fat, plus a heavy fur coat. This causes hollow points to jam up with fat & fur and quickly slow down, never entering any vitals. An FMJ'd 9mm with some powder behind it will penetrate much deeper, I think moreso in a heavier grain bullet. Mine can handle very hot handloads. 125-147 FMJ 9mm +P+ penetrates well. 20 rounds helps too, if I can reload.

Spirit 1
09-28-2011, 2:48 PM
Actually, since I doubt anyone has mentioned this yet, there IS a spot you could (theoretically) hit that would stop ANY bear with that 9mm. But the question will remain: who on Earth is a good enough shot? Because a 115-147 grain bullet going 1100fps+ right in the balls is going to render any male species helpless (if not speechless!)......oh, wait: what if it is a female that is charging us? DOH!:eek::p


Haah! Grizzlies commonly rear up on their haunches & manwalk to scare you off, blacks not nearly so often. But if one did: there's your shot at the huevos! Probably even discourage a female I'd think, ouch.....

Danhood
09-28-2011, 2:56 PM
Disabled: cannot run, and wouldn't anyway.

Bears charge at hi speed, some say up to 60MPH or faster! Humans run about 17-20+ mph max. A neighbor couple driving in their car clocked a bear running up the road ahead to get away from the car. They clocked it at 50+ MPH, and it ran for about 1/8-1/4 mile. Finally threw itself up against a bank on roadside face first, as if to climb, but couldn't. They drove on by.

When charged it's better to back away fairly quickly, but not pose a threat or run. If you turn & run the bear will likely pursue & take you down from behind. Better to change direction of walking to angle away from bear at 90*. No threat to him at all, but he sees you leaving, problem often solved.

From many reports, anything you can do to make yourself look larger may help, jumping up on a rock or stump, spreading out your coat and arms etc. Bears in their social life use this bluff showing of size this same way to scare off other bears, part of their habits. I've done it and it worked so far. So far....

If the bear isn't close it usually helps to throw stuff like rocks or big sticks and shout, make a ruckus. They usually leave, slowly. Blacks aren't normally all that aggressive.

None of that applies to Grizzlies, but they're virtually extinct in Cali by most reports. Here it's smallish black bears. Many will hunt them with .357 mags.

The last one that tried to climb in my window about 3 feet away from the porterhouse steak I was eating measured 7 1/2' to 8' tall on his haunches, with head roughly 18" wide [including all the fur of course.] So probably a few hundred lbs.

Do yourself a favor and don't ever try to outrun a bear. Watch the videos on that bear spray link I posted. Fascinating & very, very scary!

I'm not sure where your drawing your info from but bears can not run at 60 mph. The fastest land animal is the cheetah and the fastest speed recorded of them is around 70mph. Ever seen a Cheetah those things are built for speed. Bears are not.
From the bear fact website;
Running Speed: Lean bears can exceed 30 mph. Can run uphill, downhill, or on level ground. Fat bears in winter coats overheat and tire quickly.
http://www.bear.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=38

Also California Grizzles are not "virtually extinct" they are extinct and have been for almost 90 years.
The grizzly bear appears on the flag of California, though they are extinct in the state, the last one having been shot in 1922
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_bear

Get some bear spray and you will be fine.:)

supersonic
09-28-2011, 4:00 PM
:yawn:Why are people so freaked out about black bears in California?

DFG has recorded 12 (twelve!!!) bear attacks since 1980.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/bear/bear_incidents.html :willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:



And zero deaths from these attacks.:thumbsup: (I particularly liked the one attack in '93 when the black bear merely bit some guy in his booty).:p

JAGACIDA
09-28-2011, 4:21 PM
:yawn:Why are people so freaked out about black bears in California?

DFG has recorded 12 (twelve!!!) bear attacks since 1980.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/bear/bear_incidents.html :willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Go ahead and carry your 9mm for bears. It is VERY VERY unlikely you'd need it so it doesn't matter that it won't help. And, it will help for the 2 legged animals that are likely to be the real problem.

That's because the bears only have had internet access since 1990.
But seriously, I wouldn't carry a 9 unless it were my only option. Pepper spray is recommended. I'm in bear country and a .44 reigns supreme for black bear.
Now let's talk moose.

P220ST
09-28-2011, 4:42 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but I assume bear spray is like a beefed up version of mace/pepper spray? If so, I've been in the "vicinity" of someone getting pepper sprayed before (I was about 5 feet away to the side of the victim). My eyes stung like crazy for about 10 mins or so. If I were to pop a bear with some spray, how greatly would I be affected by the aftermath?

HK4113
09-28-2011, 8:57 PM
B lacks aren't normally all that aggressive.

None of that applies to Grizzlies, but they're virtually extinct in Cali by most reports. Here it's smallish black bears. Many will hunt them with .357 mags.

The last one that tried to climb in my window about 3 feet away from the porterhouse steak I was eating measured 7 1/2' to 8' tall on his haunches, with head roughly 18" wide [including all the fur of course.] So probably a few hundred lbs.

Do yourself a favor and don't ever try to outrun a bear. Watch the videos on that bear spray link I posted. Fascinating & very, very scary!

First of all brown bears have been extinct in CA since the 1924, so you only have black bears. That said you already answered your own question, regarding black bear aggressiveness.

Bkwy0scRXBU

troutbum54
09-28-2011, 8:59 PM
:yawn:Why are people so freaked out about black bears in California?

DFG has recorded 12 (twelve!!!) bear attacks since 1980.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/bear/bear_incidents.html :willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

Go ahead and carry your 9mm for bears. It is VERY VERY unlikely you'd need it so it doesn't matter that it won't help. And, it will help for the 2 legged animals that are likely to be the real problem.

Exactly this ^
even if a black bear charges you it doesn't mean you are going to die. I've gotten in between a mama and her cub and while it was tense for a bit the cub finally got back to its mama. In this case I had my dog with me which I think made the bear leary about charging me. Two of my friends have both been charged by a bear. One it was a bluff charge and nothing happened to him. The second one got charged and knocked down and other than a pair of soiled shorts he was ok. Unless hunting them I would think best options are bear spray and or a good dog.

troutbum54
09-28-2011, 9:10 PM
There are documented cases of a bear being shot dead with one shot from a Ruger Alaskan at close range.

how about with a 22?

Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single shot bolt action .22 rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big bear was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long Rifle cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Long Rifles, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records today.
“Grizzly Guns” by H. V. Stent

Go Packers!
09-28-2011, 9:41 PM
Bears Suck!

Go Packers!

7x57
09-28-2011, 9:46 PM
Exactly this ^
Unless hunting them I would think best options are bear spray and or a good dog.

The problem with a dog is they have a habit of ranging ahead and around, finding a bear, pestering it until it's furious, and then deciding they're in over their head. What do wolves do when they're in over their head? Right, go to the pack for help--which in this case means running back to the two-legged pack leader with an enraged bear on their tail.

A leash is probably a good idea in bear country.

7x57

Spirit 1
09-29-2011, 11:58 AM
I'm not sure where your drawing your info from but bears can not run at 60 mph. The fastest land animal is the cheetah and the fastest speed recorded of them is around 70mph. Ever seen a Cheetah those things are built for speed. Bears are not.
From the bear fact website;
Running Speed: Lean bears can exceed 30 mph. Can run uphill, downhill, or on level ground. Fat bears in winter coats overheat and tire quickly.
http://www.bear.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=38

Also California Grizzles are not "virtually extinct" they are extinct and have been for almost 90 years.
The grizzly bear appears on the flag of California, though they are extinct in the state, the last one having been shot in 1922
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_bear

Get some bear spray and you will be fine.:)

Just because an internet website states something, dosn't means it's take to the bank true. It's well known by those who hunt bear that they can move much faster than 30mph when they charge. How would you suppose they take down deer?

Also, as I wrote, my neighbor and his wife, traveling in their car, timed a black bear with their speedometer at 50 mph for about 1/8 to 1/4 mile as they followed it. That's a verifiable fact to me, not an internet guesstimate.

Some info about grizzlies & blacks. Grizzlies are slower than California black bears:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/92795-How-quick-is-a-charging-bear...-really?

http://www.udap.com/video.htm

That's from the folks that make the best bear spray.

Thanks...

Spirit 1
09-29-2011, 12:15 PM
how about with a 22?

Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single shot bolt action .22 rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big bear was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long Rifle cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Long Rifles, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records today.
“Grizzly Guns” by H. V. Stent

Thanks, amazing!

I was also amazed when I called Fish & Game about the blackie that tried to climb in my window. Don't know for sure now, but thinking he was Cali F&G, but maybe Federal. I wanted to know the legalities of shooting one.

Anyways he said they don't trap them around here anymore, but "...call in some sharpshooters from down south...". I asked him what they use to bring down bears, his answer, ".223." WHAT?!

I asked him 3 different times after and he replied the same every time, the F&G 'sharpshooters' always use a .223 for taking down California black bears.

I'm not sure, but it's my guess 'sharpshooters from down south' might be sniper guys from military bases? Don't know. Anyways, .223 is the caliber of choice.

Don't know how a +P+ 9mm compares at close range?

Not a ,458, or .375 H&H, or .416 Rigby, or .454 Casull but a .223 is caliber of choice for professionals. Interesting....

lswanie
09-29-2011, 12:16 PM
.357 sig or something else with low recoil and high penetration and shoot it in the head. You really need to shoot these things in the head with whatever you have handgun wise, or you are going to be in trouble. A solid body shot with a .44 could still lead to them mauling you while they bleed to death. Also if you are going to lug around some huge .44 you might as well just take out a short .45-70

Really the best thing to say about a handgun in a bear situation, is it is noisy and might scare the bear away.

Coded-Dude
09-29-2011, 12:16 PM
pffft. a sharp fixed blade is all you need. fight that bear like a real man! /end lucky 13 rant

glad to see all the normal jokes, videos, and images have made it into another bear thread.

HK4113
09-29-2011, 4:39 PM
Just because an internet website states something, dosn't means it's take to the bank true. It's well known by those who hunt bear that they can move much faster than 30mph when they charge. How would you suppose they take down deer?

Also, as I wrote, my neighbor and his wife, traveling in their car, timed a black bear with their speedometer at 50 mph for about 1/8 to 1/4 mile as they followed it. That's a verifiable fact to me, not an internet guesstimate.

Some info about grizzlies & blacks. Grizzlies are slower than California black bears:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/92795-How-quick-is-a-charging-bear...-really?

http://www.udap.com/video.htm

That's from the folks that make the best bear spray.

Thanks...

Your so delusional its not even funny. Black bear cant even hit 50 mph on a quick sprint let alone for 1/4 mile, and these aren't internet guesstimates, these speeds are from research. What your friends did in their car is a guesstimate at best.

Bears catch deer just like hunters use to, with stealth, and quick burst of speed before your prey has a chance to react.

newglockster
09-29-2011, 4:44 PM
Best ammo might be this. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=67

P220ST
09-29-2011, 4:58 PM
Just because an internet website states something, dosn't means it's take to the bank true. It's well known by those who hunt bear that they can move much faster than 30mph when they charge. How would you suppose they take down deer?

Also, as I wrote, my neighbor and his wife, traveling in their car, timed a black bear with their speedometer at 50 mph for about 1/8 to 1/4 mile as they followed it. That's a verifiable fact to me, not an internet guesstimate.

Some info about grizzlies & blacks. Grizzlies are slower than California black bears:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/92795-How-quick-is-a-charging-bear...-really?

http://www.udap.com/video.htm

That's from the folks that make the best bear spray.

Thanks...


You say that you can't just blindly believe everything you read on an internet website.... I can agree to that. But then you go on to say that your neighbor and his wife told you that they timed a black bear and this is verifiable truth? Trusting your neighbor's word is the same thing as reading something off the 'net in my opinion. If it's not backed by cold, hard facts, then it's just an educated guess.

simoncpj
09-29-2011, 5:15 PM
I like the shoot for the nuts, that way either the shooter or the bear will be a Darwin Award recipient depending on accuracy. :43:

-hanko
09-29-2011, 7:16 PM
Just because an internet website states something, dosn't means it's take to the bank true. It's well known by those who hunt bear that they can move much faster than 30mph when they charge. How would you suppose they take down deer?

Also, as I wrote, my neighbor and his wife, traveling in their car, timed a black bear with their speedometer at 50 mph for about 1/8 to 1/4 mile as they followed it. That's a verifiable fact to me, not an internet guesstimate.

Some info about grizzlies & blacks. Grizzlies are slower than California black bears:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/92795-How-quick-is-a-charging-bear...-really?
Some more info about blacks...I've ignored grizzly's since their habitat excludes all of CA...

From http://www.bear.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=38

"Running Speed: Lean bears can exceed 30 mph. Can run uphill, downhill, or on level ground. Fat bears in winter coats overheat and tire quickly.

Greatest misconception: The greatest misconception about black bears is that they are likely to attack people in defense of cubs. They are highly unlikely to do this. Black bear researchers often capture screaming cubs in the presence of bluff-charging mothers with no attacks.

Defense of cubs is a grizzly bear trait. About 70 percent of human deaths from grizzly bears are from mothers defending cubs, but black bear mothers have not been known to kill anyone in defense of cubs.

http://www.udap.com/video.htm

That's from the folks that make the best bear spray.

Thanks...
Some more info about blacks...I've ignored grizzly's since their habitat excludes all of CA...

From http://www.bear.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=38

"Running Speed: Lean bears can exceed 30 mph. Can run uphill, downhill, or on level ground. Fat bears in winter coats overheat and tire quickly.

"Greatest misconception: The greatest misconception about black bears is that they are likely to attack people in defense of cubs. They are highly unlikely to do this. Black bear researchers often capture screaming cubs in the presence of bluff-charging mothers with no attacks.

"Defense of cubs is a grizzly bear trait. About 70 percent of human deaths from grizzly bears are from mothers defending cubs, but black bear mothers have not been known to kill anyone in defense of cubs."


From http://www.americanbear.org/blackbearfacts.htm

"can run up to 35 miles per hour

"Note: Bear attacks on humans are extremely rare. A person is 180 times more likely to be killed by a bee and 160,000 times more likely to die in a car accident. Most injuries from black bears occur when people try to feed, pet, or crowd them. Bears will nip or cuff bad-mannered humans, as they will bad-mannered bears. They are very strong and powerful animals; bears should always be treated with caution and respect."

Take that 9mm and aim for the nose...good luck as your neighbor has clocked one at 50mph;)

Keep the spray, make noise while you hike, if you have a dog take him with you. If you have females in the family, be aware that "that time of the month" is a major bear attractant...backpackers time trips into and out of brown bear country with that cycle in mind...I've not seen it mentioned re: black bears, but it may be something to check out.

good luck

-hanko

skyscraper
09-29-2011, 7:18 PM
Ohhhh.... I thought this thread was about which kind of bear is the best shot...because I've seen brown bears shoot a dime at 200 yards. The grizzlies dont fare so well, paws are too big.

skyscraper
09-29-2011, 7:21 PM
Just because an internet website states something, dosn't means it's take to the bank true. It's well known by those who hunt bear that they can move much faster than 30mph when they charge. How would you suppose they take down deer?

Also, as I wrote, my neighbor and his wife, traveling in their car, timed a black bear with their speedometer at 50 mph for about 1/8 to 1/4 mile as they followed it. That's a verifiable fact to me, not an internet guesstimate.

Some info about grizzlies & blacks. Grizzlies are slower than California black bears:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/92795-How-quick-is-a-charging-bear...-really?

http://www.udap.com/video.htm

That's from the folks that make the best bear spray.

Thanks...

Your neghbors wife was looking at Kilometers Per Hour
/discussion

richardk1911
09-30-2011, 4:52 PM
Some time ago, I heard a crazy story about a guy who killed a bear with the 9 mm long luger artillery he was using for hunting may be a dingo.
When he saw the bear, at first he was trying to scare away the bear by yelling and screaming. the bear stood up and growling , have a go with the guy. He quickly draw his long luger artillery on the neck and the chest of the bear empty the magazine to kill a bear. Please I bag you do not try yourself.
It's only a story * The size out the bear unknown*..

chim-chim7
09-30-2011, 5:09 PM
I protect the right to arm bears.

Remaxman
09-30-2011, 6:46 PM
I was responding to the OP's question of where to aim with a handgun, not the use of bear spray. My advice was to aim for the nose (not the eye). Facepalm all you'd like but where would you aim if that was your only choice of a defense weapon?

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll137/ranjaz/BlackBearSkull0012mjt.jpg

Redcliff,
Although I appreciate your willingness to respond and give a very well thought out and lucid response to the OP's question, I think the point has been well made by most... and that is don't ever put yourself in a position to be attacked by a bear (Black or Griz) if all you have is a 9mm. To do so is both dumb and irresponsible not only to yourself and others that may be with you with you but also to the bear that you may end up wounding. Now I don't think anybody in the forum would argue that if by extreme circumstance one happens to find himself in "bear country" and the only weapon in his possession was his 9? Well...than I guess thats what he'd have to use. But in reality, most people will not find themselves in that position but rather put themselves in the position due to either bad planning and/or poor information. So, I'll say it one last time. Be smart! Don't go into bear country with just your 9! Plan ahead! If you know theres even a small chance of meeting up with a bear, take the appropriate weapon or deterrent such as bear spray and that way you won't need to worry about pulling off the nearly impossible shot, knowing if bears can actually run 35 or 60 mph or having to outrun a fat buddy.
Lastly- to Spirit,
I'm sorry if you feel that some of us are being harsh or sarcastic in our answers. Theres really no harm meant & nothing personal, just a bit of forum humor mixed in with what sounds to me like good information. I hope you stick around.

redcliff
09-30-2011, 8:10 PM
Redcliff,
Although I appreciate your willingness to respond and give a very well thought out and lucid response to the OP's question, I think the point has been well made by most... and that is don't ever put yourself in a position to be attacked by a bear (Black or Griz) if all you have is a 9mm. To do so is both dumb and irresponsible not only to yourself and others that may be with you with you but also to the bear that you may end up wounding. Now I don't think anybody in the forum would argue that if by extreme circumstance one happens to find himself in "bear country" and the only weapon in his possession was his 9? Well...than I guess thats what he'd have to use. But in reality, most people will not find themselves in that position but rather put themselves in the position due to either bad planning and/or poor information. So, I'll say it one last time. Be smart! Don't go into bear country with just your 9! Plan ahead! If you know theres even a small chance of meeting up with a bear, take the appropriate weapon or deterrent such as bear spray and that way you won't need to worry about pulling off the nearly impossible shot, knowing if bears can actually run 35 or 60 mph or having to outrun a fat buddy.
Lastly- to Spirit,
I'm sorry if you feel that some of us are being harsh or sarcastic in our answers. Theres really no harm meant & nothing personal, just a bit of forum humor mixed in with what sounds to me like good information. I hope you stick around.

You're preaching to the choir Remaxman. If you'll reread my original post you'll notice I also said that although Grizzly bears have been killed by 9mm's they've also survived multiple hits from .30 calibre rifles (and larger).

No matter what close range weapon you choose, you need to identify the most vulnerable spot to stop one. A heart/lung shot is usually not a good immediate stopper as they will take some time to bleed out. Breaking down their shoulders is difficult unless you have very heavy bullets and calibre. A central nervous system hit is best, but difficult to achieve due to their sloping skulls. I agree bears are very fast and powerful and in all likelihood your self defense shots will be from contact distance while being mauled. Numerous bear fatalities have occurred where a longarm being carried was knocked away during the charge; having a sidearm in addition to a long arm would seem to be an advantage in that eventuality.

Fortunately we only have black bears around here and they often can be persuaded to leave the area by noise such as a warning shot or shouting or can simply be avoided by leaving the area slowly yourself. Personally I worry more about Mountain Lion than black bear when I'm out in the bush. Although I've seen numerous black bear over my life, including 4 last week, I've only seen a glimpse of a Mountain Lion once; they're like ghosts.

I'm sure we could start a post in the hunting section of the forum if people wanted to elaborate more on bear stories and defense measures such as bear spray, handguns and what calbibre rifles are best suited for hunting them.

Spirit 1
09-30-2011, 11:02 PM
You say that you can't just blindly believe everything you read on an internet website.... I can agree to that. But then you go on to say that your neighbor and his wife told you that they timed a black bear and this is verifiable truth? Trusting your neighbor's word is the same thing as reading something off the 'net in my opinion. If it's not backed by cold, hard facts, then it's just an educated guess.


Last I heard eyewitness testimony was accepted in a court of law for any crime under any circumstances.

Spirit 1
09-30-2011, 11:05 PM
Some more info about blacks...I've ignored grizzly's since their habitat excludes all of CA...

From http://www.bear.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=38

"Running Speed: Lean bears can exceed 30 mph. Can run uphill, downhill, or on level ground. Fat bears in winter coats overheat and tire quickly.

"Greatest misconception: The greatest misconception about black bears is that they are likely to attack people in defense of cubs. They are highly unlikely to do this. Black bear researchers often capture screaming cubs in the presence of bluff-charging mothers with no attacks.

"Defense of cubs is a grizzly bear trait. About 70 percent of human deaths from grizzly bears are from mothers defending cubs, but black bear mothers have not been known to kill anyone in defense of cubs."


From http://www.americanbear.org/blackbearfacts.htm

"can run up to 35 miles per hour

"Note: Bear attacks on humans are extremely rare. A person is 180 times more likely to be killed by a bee and 160,000 times more likely to die in a car accident. Most injuries from black bears occur when people try to feed, pet, or crowd them. Bears will nip or cuff bad-mannered humans, as they will bad-mannered bears. They are very strong and powerful animals; bears should always be treated with caution and respect."

Take that 9mm and aim for the nose...good luck as your neighbor has clocked one at 50mph;)

Keep the spray, make noise while you hike, if you have a dog take him with you. If you have females in the family, be aware that "that time of the month" is a major bear attractant...backpackers time trips into and out of brown bear country with that cycle in mind...I've not seen it mentioned re: black bears, but it may be something to check out.

good luck

-hanko


Thank you!

Spirit 1
09-30-2011, 11:36 PM
Redcliff,
Although I appreciate your willingness to respond and give a very well thought out and lucid response to the OP's question, I think the point has been well made by most... and that is don't ever put yourself in a position to be attacked by a bear (Black or Griz) if all you have is a 9mm. To do so is both dumb and irresponsible not only to yourself and others that may be with you with you but also to the bear that you may end up wounding. Now I don't think anybody in the forum would argue that if by extreme circumstance one happens to find himself in "bear country" and the only weapon in his possession was his 9? Well...than I guess thats what he'd have to use. But in reality, most people will not find themselves in that position but rather put themselves in the position due to either bad planning and/or poor information. So, I'll say it one last time. Be smart! Don't go into bear country with just your 9! Plan ahead! If you know theres even a small chance of meeting up with a bear, take the appropriate weapon or deterrent such as bear spray and that way you won't need to worry about pulling off the nearly impossible shot, knowing if bears can actually run 35 or 60 mph or having to outrun a fat buddy.
Lastly- to Spirit,
I'm sorry if you feel that some of us are being harsh or sarcastic in our answers. Theres really no harm meant & nothing personal, just a bit of forum humor mixed in with what sounds to me like good information. I hope you stick around.


I simply can't imagine how I could have explained the situation more clearly. Regardless, except for the few helpful replies TO THE ACTUAL QUESTION, it appears most folks either couldn't understand the words, skimmed it & gave hot shot replies, or have no idea what they or I am talking about.

It really isn't that complicated and honestly, I'm really not as ignorant as most folks here seem to think.

Nobody else in the entire area even carries anything for bears or mountain lions, just hoping for the best. I prefer to protect myself, as best I can.

I'm disabled, cannot run, and cannot lug a rifle or shotgun around continually all day everyday & as I do things around the property. I'm able to bring rifle/shotgun to area I'm in, but have to park it, then do what I'm doing. I can however carry a sidearm, which is 9mm.

Therefore, based on the above, I simply wanted to know what the best shot placement is under the circumstances, to hopefully buy time or slow/stop immediate threat until I can reach rifle or shotgun. That's not ignorant, stupid, halfwit, mindless or incredibly uninformed. It's a really simple question.

What it is: the only possibility under the circumstances, currently no other choices, none.

Regarding speed of bears. Watch the videos, and also realize that assorted 'scientific' or 'expert' info on the speed of bears is suspect to say the least. Try to imagine what sort of testing or verification was used, scientifically, to accurately measure the maximum speed of a bear in a charge. Radar gun? Photocells tripped? GPS?Guesstimate?

Speed for what distance? 10 feet? 20 feet? 1/4 mile? 1 mile? I don't know of any way possible in the wild to measure the speed of acceleration or top speed of a bear over a distance of 20 feet, but maybe that's just me.

I do know what trusted friends testified to me, and choose to believe it. Others don't have to.

Now it would be real nice if this entirely unpleasant thread died but whatever, I have no further interest.

Thanks again to those who tried to give helpful information.

chim-chim7
10-01-2011, 1:02 AM
Final thoughts: If all you have is a 9mm while living in bear country it's best to trade it in on a magnum caliber at the very least. Use common sense, or end up with a golden Darwin award. Shot placement should be obvious, head and belly.

quagmiles
10-01-2011, 9:08 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Ibr2007.jpg