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View Full Version : New grip CA legal for featureless AR?


the86d
09-24-2011, 9:52 AM
Since the U-15 stock is kosher for a featureless, wouldn't a grip that was just like the monsterman grip without the back fin be legal too?

A grip coming out like the monsterman/U-15, also using the 45degree-ish angle like a standard Rifle that would not be beneath the action of the rifle, and no thumbhole needed?

Action is assumed to be under action of the bolt (not the buffer), as the U-15 is fine.

Someone enlighten me, please... as I do not know why these are not being sold or manufactured right now.

Reductio
09-24-2011, 10:12 AM
Paging exile machine.... Paging exile machine.... (http://www.exilemachine.com/)

Exile Machine
09-24-2011, 10:21 AM
www.exilemachine.com

SanPedroShooter
09-24-2011, 10:22 AM
ha ha ha....:D

Great minds think alike.

the86d
09-24-2011, 10:32 AM
I have seen those, and will probably get one to see, but I prefer the A2 stock (like I was issued so many years ago. With an A2 stock you cannot grip the Hammerhead fully with your thumb too). I have yet to see where anything but people state that the web has to be above the trigger, as it is not on the U-15. I have only read that the grip cannot be below the action of the weapon, as the u-15 is apparently not.

Am I missing something?

OC-Indian
09-24-2011, 10:39 AM
+1000 for HammerHead

SanPedroShooter
09-24-2011, 10:43 AM
Take a look at this

http://monstermangrip.com/uploads/CA_BOF_Pistol_Grip_Diagrams.pdf

The grip does not protrude "conspicuously (sounds vague to me) below the top of the trigger" or some bull****. I am going to featureless on my AK to use some old standard cap steel 30 rounders and I like the fin grip. I mean, its better than nothing...

Exile Machine
09-24-2011, 11:19 AM
I have seen those, and will probably get one to see, but I prefer the A2 stock (like I was issued so many years ago. With an A2 stock you cannot grip the Hammerhead fully with your thumb too). I have yet to see where anything but people state that the web has to be above the trigger, as it is not on the U-15. I have only read that the grip cannot be below the action of the weapon, as the u-15 is apparently not.

Am I missing something?

From our website (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pages/ca-laws-5.html):

"CA 11 CCR 5469(d) says 'pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon' means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing. "

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/IMG_7137_CLINE.JPG

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/IMG_8060_CLINE.JPG

The A2 stock comes very close to this line. You can run a Hammerhead with an A2, and if you want to wrap your hand around the Hammerhead grip you would have to cut off the back of the Hammerhead grip and then dremel away that part of the A2 stock directly below the receiver extension tube and directly above the Hammerhead grip to allow your thumb to get around the Hammerhead. It could be done. Could it be done and look good? I leave that as an exercise for the reader... Hint: you'll probably need a lot of bondo and some automotive primer. :43:

-Mark

shark92651
09-24-2011, 11:25 AM
I have seen those, and will probably get one to see, but I prefer the A2 stock (like I was issued so many years ago. With an A2 stock you cannot grip the Hammerhead fully with your thumb too). I have yet to see where anything but people state that the web has to be above the trigger, as it is not on the U-15. I have only read that the grip cannot be below the action of the weapon, as the u-15 is apparently not.

Am I missing something?

Neither the Hammerhead nor the U15 will let you use a "pistol style grasp" and wrap your thumb around the grip with the web of your hand being below the trigger. I'm not sure what you are describing but if you grip it with your fingers on one side and your thumb on the other, and if the web of your hand between those two is below the trigger, then that is what CA calls a pistol style grasp. Perhaps you should post an illustration of what you are thinking about.

California Definition Of Assault Weapon

12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

(a) pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(b) thumbhole stock.
(c) folding or telescoping stock
(d) grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(e) flash suppressor.
(f) forward pistol grip.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

Exile Machine
09-24-2011, 11:33 AM
This is what I meant in my last post about modifying the A2 stock. Note this is a bad Photoshop (actually GIMP) edit and I have no idea if you could cut an A2 stock like this without destroying it structurally. I suspect you could, and like I said you'd need bondo and paint to finish it out:

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/IMG_8205_A2_MODIFIED.JPG

You'd need to be careful in this case not to cut the A2 stock so that the back of the Hammerhead contacted it, in which case you'd have yourself a thumbhole stock.

-Mark

Exile Machine
09-24-2011, 12:12 PM
What about getting a stubby A2 stock and creating a spacer that pushes it further back on the receiver extension? Cut down the Hammerhead Grip and you'd have something similar, without all the bondo work.

That could work. You would use a regular A1 receiver extension, with for example a Rock River Arms Entry buttstock.

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/IMG_0924_MODIFIED.JPG
You wouldn't even need to modify the Hammerhead if you didn't want to.

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/IMG_0924_MODIFIED_STUBBY.JPG
Or if you like the stubby look that would work too.

You'd need to cut a length of aluminum or maybe even PVC pipe (B) as a spacer to fill the gap. Then you'd want to bond receiver end plates (A) to either end of the pipe spacer, otherwise the stock will be free to rotate. You'll need to find or fabricate a washer to close up the gap (C). Spray the whole mess down with some automotive primer and it just might be passable.

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/IMG_0926.JPG

GettoPhilosopher
09-24-2011, 1:11 PM
You'd need to be careful in this case not to cut the A2 stock so that the back of the Hammerhead contacted it, in which case you'd have yourself a thumbhole stock.

-Mark

OH NOES, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

What a ridiculous state we live in. :P I routinely keep a loose Magpul RVG lying around for AW demonstrations to non-gunnies. "See this? This is a $20 piece of plastic. If I put it on *grabs BB'ed rifle* this, it's legal. If I put it on *grabs featureless rifle* this, it's a state felony. If I put it on *grabs pistol* this, it's a federal felony AND a state felony. If I put it on *grabs Saiga 12* this, it's fine."

the86d
09-25-2011, 8:11 AM
The extent of my PhotoChopping:
http://the86d.com/pix/nonmonster.png

And the U-15 is essentially the same grip (with no thumb-fin), and is CA-OK:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15RiflesGroupPicture.jpg

So why would the non-monster grip in my first pic-mod not work, as the web of the hand would still be above the trigger?

GNE
09-25-2011, 8:47 AM
If your hands were big enough you could conceivably fire the gun with tha web of your hand below the trigger with your modified monsterman. The u15 has a horizontal portion that physically prevents that.

Fate
09-25-2011, 12:41 PM
The extent of my PhotoChopping:
http://the86d.com/pix/nonmonster.png

If your hands were big enough you could conceivably fire the gun with tha web of your hand below the trigger with your modified monsterman.

Your modified MM grip would be illegal. The web of the hand could be below the top of the trigger when actuating the trigger. Now if you only cut off what was ABOVE the top of the trigger, then it could be legal.

The thing is, we've been hashing out these legal issues since 2006. You're not going to invent anything new at this late point in the game. Your options are ExileMachine/U15 style, Monsterman, fin-modded grip or no grip at all. That's it.

OHW
09-25-2011, 3:29 PM
The U-15 is no more than an Exile Machine hammerhead used in a type two configuration.

Everything concerning grip and feel of the rifle that the OP is trying to achieve can be addressed by the type two hammerhead.
Looks are not the same . Weigh in that hammerhead is 99.99% legal, and why bother with cutting what is legal and the paint and bondo hassle.

benbangui
09-25-2011, 11:58 PM
this is why im concidering selling my AR when i come back to CA :( maybe just moving over to the M14 platform... so lame...

bwiese
09-26-2011, 12:01 AM
The U-15 is no more than an Exile Machine hammerhead used in a type two configuration.

The U15 is the original design topology and predated the Hammerhead by several years.

Merc1138
09-26-2011, 12:25 AM
The U15 is the original design topology and predated the Hammerhead by several years.

Not to mention the U15 being all one piece means there are no weird seams where things are bolted together. Feels way more comfortable and I wish they were still made.

MrPlink
09-26-2011, 12:50 AM
The U15 is the original design topology and predated the Hammerhead by several years.

yep, we should have a AW ban relic thread featuring top loader and U15 pix

stag6.8
09-26-2011, 3:35 PM
the reason why it was was discontinued is because it was expensive...$215 bucks...I should know...I have two of them...but a fully featured rifle with magpul, troy, voltor accessories costs almost or more than $215..people said they were ugly....I think they look very nice...the design was ahead of its time...there was no real high demand for them...so grant stopped making them...also keep in mind...theres a court case going on to shut down sb23 as unconsitutional...grant knows this im sure. If calguns is successful, featureless rifles will become a thing of the past. ..and grant would not be stuck with a wherehouse full of products that nobody wants....a big loss of money. Grant was smart to do a limited run and stop. So for now...exile machine is the way to go.

someR1
09-26-2011, 3:48 PM
SO DAMN UGLY ! Monsterman FTW ....

Toolbox X
09-26-2011, 4:02 PM
Things sure have changed for the better in the past 5-6 years. That was a scary time for Monster man and I.

Knife Edge
09-26-2011, 5:23 PM
this is why im concidering selling my AR when i come back to CA :( maybe just moving over to the M14 platform... so lame...

It's extremely disappointing....

Snooky
09-26-2011, 5:40 PM
Stupid CA laws.