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View Full Version : Yet another transporting your gun thread.


Mr.1904
09-23-2011, 4:00 PM
So a buddy and i were debating whether or not it is legal to have your mags loaded with or near the gun you're carrying in your car (For instance; In a locked trunk). I was under the impression that the magazine serves as a seperate compartment. If i remember right the penal code says The firearm has to be in a locked compartment (not the center console or glove box, or in a trunk that you can not access without a key) with the ammunition in a separate compartment, with the magazine serving as the separate compartment.

I was just snooping around to try and disprove my friend who stands by the thought that having your mags loaded will constitute having a loaded weapon. This is what i found.

Loaded or not?
Under Penal Code Section 12031 (g) a firearm is consider loaded when there is a live round of ammunition “…in, or attached in ANY MANNER to, the firearm”. Using certain accessories which attach to the firearm and are designed to store additional ammunition (speed loader anyone?) may cause the firearm to be "loaded". Under Penal Code Section 171(e) a firearm is loaded whenever the firearm and the ammunition are in the immediate possession of the same person. CRPA recommends you do not store the ammunition in the same locked box with your prized .38 Colt Detective Special because it would put both pistol and bullets within your immediate possession when you open the box.


Specific purposes
The legal authorization to transport a “concealed handgun” without a permit in your vehicle applies ONLY while going to or from the specific places, and for the specific purposes, identified in Penal Code Section 12026.2. These purposes are going hunting, going to a range, going to a gunsmith etc. It is illegal to transport a concealed pistol in your vehicle for GENERAL PURPOSES (such as self defense), even though it is unloaded and locked in a separate container. In other words, if you forget and leave your Taurus Judge 3” Magnum in the truck after coming back from the range, and later drive with it to the grocery store, you are unlawfully transporting the pistol.


Do you feel lucky?
California Penal Code 12025 reads: “Any person who commits the crime (sic) of carrying a concealed handgun and ammunition for that handgun…in his/her vehicle may be subject to a FELONY enhancement if the handgun is not on file (registered) in the Department of Justice’s (sic) Automated Firearms System.” In other words, if your Smith & Wesson M&P 45 is not registered, you are subject to a potential felony conviction just for having it unloaded and locked in a box in your vehicle if you are not on your way to the range.

He's also talking about how you're not even aloud to have your pistol on you for "general purposes" i.e self defense in the car; Only having the pistol with you on your way back from hunting or the range.

If this is true i am pretty ill informed.

http://carolrossi.hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Transport-a-Gun-in-Your-Vehicle-in-California

paul0660
09-23-2011, 4:03 PM
We are here to answer your questions.

Some or all could be answered by exploring the wiki, on the calguns menu bar.

The real question is how the two of you could have a debate without info.

Mr.1904
09-23-2011, 4:05 PM
That's where i got my initial information was gunwiki

If you could send a link it would be much appreciated.

EDIT: Found it.

Cyc Wid It
09-23-2011, 4:10 PM
Yes, you can.

mrdd
09-23-2011, 5:18 PM
There are two sets of law (concealed and loaded) in the PC which could be involved here:

12025 creates the crime of carrying a concealed firearm.

This applies to firearms which are capable of being concealed on the person, which means any firearm which has a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

12026 creates an exception to 12025 when in your place of residence, etc.

12026.1 creates an exception to 12025 when the firearm is within a locked container and is being directly carried to or from a motor vehicle, or is being transported in a locked container in a motor vehicle. There are no specific destination restrictions to the transportation. This exception only applies to U.S. Citizens.

12026.2 creates additional exceptions to 12025 where 12026.1 does not apply but there are destination restrictions. This exception applies to anyone in legal possession of the firearm.

Note that 12026.1 and 12026.2 both require the use of a container, so you had better be careful that it qualifies as a locked container, otherwise the use of a container places you in violation of 12025.

If open carrying an unloaded firearm in public, be careful not to conceal any loaded magazines, otherwise, the open carry exception in 12025 may not apply. This is due to bad case law. Also, be careful to avoid traveling through any school zones.

12031 creates the crime of carrying a loaded firearm. Briefly, this applies when carrying the firearm on your person or in a vehicle, while in a public place in an incorporated city, or while in a public place in an unincorporated area where discharge is unlawful.

A firearm is considered loaded when there is ammunition in the chamber, or contained in a magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm in a manner such that the rounds could be fired. This includes ammunition in an internal magazine, or in a detachable magazine which is attached in the firing position. This includes internal tubular magazines, such as on a shotgun, but it does not include ammunition attached to the outside of the firearm in a side saddle, or for example attached to the stock of the firearm.

GuillermoAntonio
09-24-2011, 12:02 AM
There are two sets of law (concealed and loaded) in the PC which could be involved here:

12025 creates the crime of carrying a concealed firearm.

This applies to firearms which are capable of being concealed on the person, which means any firearm which has a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

12026 creates an exception to 12025 when in your place of residence, etc.

12026.1 creates an exception to 12025 when the firearm is within a locked container and is being directly carried to or from a motor vehicle, or is being transported in a locked container in a motor vehicle. There are no specific destination restrictions to the transportation. This exception only applies to U.S. Citizens.

12026.2 creates additional exceptions to 12025 where 12026.1 does not apply but there are destination restrictions. This exception applies to anyone in legal possession of the firearm.

Note that 12026.1 and 12026.2 both require the use of a container, so you had better be careful that it qualifies as a locked container, otherwise the use of a container places you in violation of 12025.

If open carrying an unloaded firearm in public, be careful not to conceal any loaded magazines, otherwise, the open carry exception in 12025 may not apply. This is due to bad case law. Also, be careful to avoid traveling through any school zones.

12031 creates the crime of carrying a loaded firearm. Briefly, this applies when carrying the firearm on your person or in a vehicle, while in a public place in an incorporated city, or while in a public place in an unincorporated area where discharge is unlawful.

A firearm is considered loaded when there is ammunition in the chamber, or contained in a magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm in a manner such that the rounds could be fired. This includes ammunition in an internal magazine, or in a detachable magazine which is attached in the firing position. This includes internal tubular magazines, such as on a shotgun, but it does not include ammunition attached to the outside of the firearm in a side saddle, or for example attached to the stock of the firearm.
You may want to say US legal residents.

mrdd
09-24-2011, 6:42 AM
12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Not arguing the constitutionality of the law, but that is what it says.

GuillermoAntonio
09-24-2011, 9:31 AM
yeah, well im not a citizen, yet im a gun owner and all the laws apply the same to me and all other permanent residents.

Librarian
09-24-2011, 9:50 AM
yeah, well im not a citizen, yet im a gun owner and all the laws apply the same to me and all other permanent residents.

It's very unlikely to be an issue, but in this case, this particular law means exactly what it says.

GuillermoAntonio
09-24-2011, 10:00 AM
It's very unlikely to be an issue, but in this case, this particular law means exactly what it says.
wow, so, does that need to be rewritten? and I tought OP was interpreting the code ...

Thanks for the input Librarian

PanaDP
09-24-2011, 12:27 PM
wow, so, does that need to be rewritten? and I tought OP was interpreting the code ...

Thanks for the input Librarian

I found this website (http://www.vrolyk.org/guns/alien-laws.html), that seems well-researched and it has this to say:

California:

With a few exceptions, California forbids having a "concealable" firearm in a vehicle. One of the most signifigant exceptions, however, does not apply to non-citizens! The exception is that it's legal to have a handgun in vehicle if it's locked in the trunk or is in some other locked container. But, as I said, this exception only applies to citizens. Non-citizens can't transport their handguns in their cars unless they fall under one of the other exceptions in the law.

See the California Penal Code, section 12025 and 12026 for the law and it's exceptions.

GuillermoAntonio
09-24-2011, 12:59 PM
I found this website (http://www.vrolyk.org/guns/alien-laws.html), that seems well-researched and it has this to say:

California:

With a few exceptions, California forbids having a "concealable" firearm in a vehicle. One of the most signifigant exceptions, however, does not apply to non-citizens! The exception is that it's legal to have a handgun in vehicle if it's locked in the trunk or is in some other locked container. But, as I said, this exception only applies to citizens. Non-citizens can't transport their handguns in their cars unless they fall under one of the other exceptions in the law.

See the California Penal Code, section 12025 and 12026 for the law and it's exceptions.

OK! So now im worried, basically this means that if I get in trouble for xy or z, while transporting a pistol and the DA wants to screw me, then he/she can....?
WTH!!
How do they expect me to transport my pistols then?

mrdd
09-24-2011, 1:38 PM
OK! So now im worried, basically this means that if I get in trouble for xy or z, while transporting a pistol and the DA wants to screw me, then he/she can....?
WTH!!
How do they expect me to transport my pistols then?

Under the strict reading of the law, you need to use the one of the exemptions in PC 12026.2:

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a
motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment
event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that
production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly
from, that production or event.
(2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member
of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully
collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other
firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or
organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from,
those meetings.
(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter
safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.
(4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.
(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully
received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of
business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that
person.
(7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or
similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of
displaying that firearm in a lawful manner.
(8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or
agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming
directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or
entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an
authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production
or event.
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
(10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person
authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at
the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can
determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to
carry that firearm.
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
(12) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to
that firearm.
(13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that
firearm.
(14) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event, as defined
in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations,
for the purpose of lawfully transferring, selling, or loaning that
firearm in accordance with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(15) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize paragraph (6) of subdivision (a) of Section 12078 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(16) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm in order to comply with Article 1 (commencing with Section
2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code as it pertains to
that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law
enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law
enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the
law enforcement agency.
(17) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(18) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm and is transporting it to a law enforcement agency for
disposition according to law, if he or she gives prior notice to the
law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to
the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.
(19) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (3) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(20) The transportation of a firearm by a person for the purpose
of obtaining an identification number or mark assigned for that
firearm from the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12092.
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.

Perhaps restricting 12026.1 only to citizens would likely not pass constitutional scrutiny, but I would not want to be a test case in criminal court. 12026.1 should have been written to include legal residents, similar to 12026.

PanaDP
09-24-2011, 1:46 PM
Under the strict reading of the law, you need to use the one of the exemptions in PC 12026.2:

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
...
(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
...
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
...

I don't know about you guys but numbers 5 and 9 apply to 99% of my gun transportation.

GuillermoAntonio
09-24-2011, 1:50 PM
phewwww!
thanks for clarifying.... I feel better now, I just have to be sure from now on that I dont do side chores between home and the range or any training.
In the past I felt protected thinking I didnt need to provide an itinerary when asked by LEO...

junkit_boy
09-24-2011, 11:12 PM
My question is : how would anyone know you have a gun in the trunk??

huntercf
09-24-2011, 11:27 PM
If I read the law correctly, if one is not a US citizen then they are NOT allowed to transport a pistol to say BLM land for target shooting because the target range does not hold a regulatory nor business license.

Cokebottle
09-24-2011, 11:27 PM
To revisit the ammo issue.

The PC does not require that the ammunition be locked up, nor does it require that it be separate from the gun.
Merely that the gun must be unloaded.
Loaded magazines do not equal loaded gun unless they are attached to the gun.

The CHP's FAQ actually states that loaded magazines may be in the same locked container as the gun.