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View Full Version : Accuracy of Rem700 bolt vs ak/ar 308?


Onlyincali
09-23-2011, 11:38 AM
May be a dumb question to some, but i'm sure others have wondered.

Lets compare a remingon 700 Varmit in 308 to a $1500 AR/AK in 308. What sort of difference will one see in accurancy? Will one be able to take coke cans at 700 yards with one and the other at 1000 yards? Are we talking fractions of an inch at 1000 yards or are we talking feet differnce in accuracy? I see so many posts re: "sniper guns" and I'm wondering how much difference in accuracy is there between a "sniper" or decent bolt action 308 vs a decent semi-308.

1. YES, I know the price is different.

2. Scope is not part of the equation. Same scope on either rifle.

1lostinspace
09-23-2011, 11:43 AM
New AK your looking at 3-4 MOA the AR 10 will shoot sub MOA-2 MOA depending on shooter and ammo 700 will shoot sub-1 MOA depending on shooter and ammo. To answer your question the 700 will be slightly more accurate than the AR10 and the AR10 will be more accurate than the AK. The AR is made to control a combat area. The 700 to varmit and the AK combat and mud baths

CK_32
09-23-2011, 12:09 PM
AK shouldn't even be in that category.

jcaoloveshine
09-23-2011, 12:10 PM
In terms of accuracy POTENTIAL (not actual accuracy, because that depends so much on accuracy mods and $$$ you toss in):

1. Rem 700/ Savage 10

2. AR10

3. M1A

4. FNFAL

5. Everything in between

6. AK

Fiveohmike
09-23-2011, 12:22 PM
My AR-10 shoots sub MOA (best is .388 MOA) al day long. I do use consistent handloads (180SMK's, Lapua Brass, Varget Powder, CCI BR2 primers).

They key is loading for the rifle (to a point) and shooting technique

thai562
09-23-2011, 12:37 PM
When it come to accuracy , bolt action rifles are always better then semi-auto rifles.
The 700 can hold 1 MOA, 1" at 100y, and 7" at 700y, you most likely going to miss that coke can.
The AR can get really close to one 1 MOA, but you have to spend a lot of money on it, be happy with 2 MOA

Jpach
09-23-2011, 12:41 PM
When it come to accuracy , bolt action rifles are always better then semi-auto rifles.
The 700 can hold 1 MOA, 1" at 100y, and 7" at 700y, you most likely going to miss that coke can.
The AR can get really close to one 1 MOA, but you have to spend a lot of money on it, be happy with 2 MOA

Many ARs are sub-MOA capable. So far, ALL of mine have been capable of consistent MOA to sub MOA accuracy. Most of the uppers were not all that pricey.

1lostinspace
09-23-2011, 12:45 PM
If your looking to hit coke cans at 1000 I would go with the AR 10, why you ask? because you are going to miss with both guns on the first shot, the AR can continue to shoot and either see trace or the POI and adjust.

Fiveohmike
09-23-2011, 12:46 PM
Many ARs are sub-MOA capable. So far, ALL of mine have been capable of consistent MOA to sub MOA accuracy. Most of the uppers were not all that pricey.

agreed. my upper with the muzzle brake and barrel threading was 1200 or so (DPMS 26" Stainless Bull barrel).

My lower cost way more ~ 1500 all together with trigger work and what not.

then glass..


Ya I guess pretty price for sub-moa accuracy that you can get can get out of a bolt-action for less money.

But I LOVE LOVE LOVE my AR10 build :)

bwiese
09-23-2011, 12:55 PM
Consistency is a virtue?

The question is "what" Rem. 700?

A cheap Rem 700 hunting rifle with a light barrel and hunting bullet rounds will not always be that accurate.

A bull/heavy barrel "tactical" or 'varmint" Rem 700 shooting match grade ammo is a very accurate gun.

someR1
09-23-2011, 1:15 PM
remi700>AR>AK

glockman19
09-23-2011, 1:31 PM
My Remmington 700 CDL in .30-06 & 700 P .308 26" heavy barrel will shoot a cold bore shot right on the cross hairs at 100 yards...consistently...leaving one ragged hole in a 5 shot group.

My M1A Loaded that has been bedded shoots a clover group of 5 shots at 100 yards.

I don't have an AR10 or AK...I bought the firearms and upgraded them the way I did because of accuracy...I just don't see the AR or AK platforms as "sniper" or long range target rifles.

I would also put certain Savage and other bolt action rifles above the AR and AK platforns too when it comes to accuracy.

Here's the difference IMHO...Bolt action rifles have fewer moving parts therefore lower margin of error. Bolt Action rifles were made for single shot kills...as in hunting, sniping. Whereas semi auto rifles are made for battle where you may have many targets comming at you.

Now..take the shooter out of the equasion and load IDENTICAL ammunition, bench test the rifle and I'd bet they are all within 1 MOA.

Every firearm has it's favorite load...Once you match the load to the firearm your accuracy will be maximized.

So you could say:

"There is no such thing as BEST in a world of individuals"
Hugh Prather...Notes to Myself

thai562
09-23-2011, 1:33 PM
How accurate can $1500 get you in the AR 10 selection? Complete rifle no optic.

HK Dave
09-23-2011, 1:35 PM
Like CK said, the AK shouldn't even be in this comparison. It uses a completely different round.

mixicus
09-23-2011, 1:43 PM
A stock Remington 700 Varmint shot .75MOA average groups with Federal GMM in Sniper Central's eval. This is consistent with several stock Remington 700 Varmint and Police models I have shot this year.

A factory ~$1700 MSRP 'AR10' from DPMS with Federal GMM should be sub MOA according to DPMS website. Having worked with one of their SASS rifles (cost a bit more than your price point), I got average groups around the .75 MOA (from memory). I don't have my data handy.

Basically, out of the box you can reliably expect ~.75 MOA from either rifle with a top quality match loading. With some hand loads or trying some different factory loadings you may do better. A Remington 700 Varmint will do it for 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost.

BTW: a 12 oz Coke can is about 2.5" wide and 5" tall. Until your rifle package is closer to .35 MOA, keeping entire can is within the MOA potential of the rifle, you are not going to CONSISTENTLY hit the can at 700yds.

xwarriorxx
09-23-2011, 1:52 PM
I know the Les Baer AR 308 is pretty darn accurate but well more than $1500

killshot44
09-23-2011, 2:31 PM
When it come to accuracy , bolt action rifles are always better then semi-auto rifles.

I've got the match results to prove you're wrong...

PanaDP
09-23-2011, 2:44 PM
Nobody actually knows how inaccurate AKs are. It's too difficult to measure those kinds of distances.

ZX-10R
09-23-2011, 5:43 PM
ARs beating M700s at 700yrds...Oh boy get yourself to a rifle forum for literally more accurate info. ARs at 100yrds are common...700yrds? Get yourself to a mirror and say it a few times and honestly believe it. M700s are CONSISTENT sub MOA guns that is the difference.

Fjold
09-23-2011, 6:26 PM
I've got the match results to prove you're wrong...

How many semiautomatice do you see at benchrest competitions?

wooger
09-23-2011, 6:36 PM
How many semiautomatice do you see at benchrest competitions?

He is correct in stating that he routinely outscores bolt guns. However, bolt guns always win the matches we are in. :p

Self loaders in BR? I don't think so.

RugerNo1
09-23-2011, 6:46 PM
Holy apples and oranges Batman!

Come on Calguns, is there anything we will not discuss? :rofl:

Pthfndr
09-23-2011, 6:50 PM
How many semiautomatice do you see at benchrest competitions?

How many Remington 700 factory rifles do you see at BR matches? :)

captbilly
09-23-2011, 7:26 PM
I have a dpms lr 308 with the factory 24" bull barrel. The complete upper cost less than $700 and will shoot moa 10 shot groups all day with Federal match ammo. It takes no special parts or tuning to make an accurate AR style rifle, just a good heavy free floating barrel and a decent scope. I do have a Geiselle adjustable trigger but it shot moa with both the stock trigger (which is just as horrible as all stock AR triggers) and with the Jard adjustable trigger I had in it for a while. My similarly cheap Rock River AR (.223) will shoot about 0.5 to 0.6 moa with HSM match ammo (also 10 shot groups, not the statistically insignificand 3 shot groups that some people quote). The ar is not given due credit for it's inherently accurate design, by many people, but it is quite capable of shooting long range matches with good results.

I would say however, that a bull barrel bolt action rifle, like a model 700 or Tikka, Savage, Sako, etc. can be more accurate than an AR. In a 700 yard shot the errors due to wind, range estimation, ammo (muzzle velocity variation in particular) is likely to ovewhelm the errors from any rifle capable of moa or better. Frankly, I haven't seen that many shooters who can consistently shoot sub moa anyway, no matter what they are shooting, so for many people the discussion is academic

JaeFern
09-23-2011, 8:12 PM
I have a dpms lr 308 with the factory 24" bull barrel. The complete upper cost less than $700 and will shoot moa 10 shot groups all day with Federal match ammo. It takes no special parts or tuning to make an accurate AR style rifle, just a good heavy free floating barrel and a decent scope. I do have a Geiselle adjustable trigger but it shot moa with both the stock trigger (which is just as horrible as all stock AR triggers) and with the Jard adjustable trigger I had in it for a while. My similarly cheap Rock River AR (.223) will shoot about 0.5 to 0.6 moa with HSM match ammo (also 10 shot groups, not the statistically insignificand 3 shot groups that some people quote). The ar is not given due credit for it's inherently accurate design, by many people, but it is quite capable of shooting long range matches with good results.

I would say however, that a bull barrel bolt action rifle, like a model 700 or Tikka, Savage, Sako, etc. can be more accurate than an AR. In a 700 yard shot the errors due to wind, range estimation, ammo (muzzle velocity variation in particular) is likely to ovewhelm the errors from any rifle capable of moa or better. Frankly, I haven't seen that many shooters who can consistently shoot sub moa anyway, no matter what they are shooting, so for many people the discussion is academic

+1 Couldn't have said it better myself.

RuckerSMO
09-24-2011, 10:19 AM
Captbilly is right. Before you worry about which rifle is really more accurate, you have to accurate. Get a bolt .22 or a semiauto .22 and work on your basic skills first. Over time, and for a dramatically lower price, you will figure out what you want and like. Get one of each and really know what fits your personal criteria. Over that time you can save the money to get exactly what you want. Then you will have built up the skill to hit the coke can at 700.

In my opinion, AK is not a long range rifle. If your thinking a dragonov style rifle, go with an m1a, your money will be better spent.

CSACANNONEER
09-24-2011, 10:31 AM
Accuracy is ONLY about adjusting your sites so that your POIs are centered around your POA. IF you are talking about groups sizes, you are talking about "precision" and NOT "accuracy".

In other words, a beater AK can be just as "accurate" as a rail gun can. A rail gun can be a lot more precise but less accurate than an AK. I think you are looking for both precision and accuracy. In which case, look for a good bolt action to start with. If you want to dive into the world of precision semi autos later, at least you'll have a decent knowledge of precision shooting to start your journey.

killshot44
09-24-2011, 11:15 AM
He is correct in stating that he routinely outscores bolt guns. However, bolt guns always win the matches we are in. :p


Not always! I've topped 'em all in F/TR..........but yeah, pretty tough to do it in F/Open when the usual top 3-5 shooters are there. :cool:

More than one way to skin a cat - and most folks think their technique is the best. That's just human nature.

Shoot whatever makes you happy, the rest will take care of itself.

Don29palms
09-24-2011, 11:25 AM
For target shooting I'll take a bolt gun with handloads everytime. That's just my personal preference. You have to use what you are the most comfortable with. You also have equipment that is capable of the task at hand.

BigNick
09-24-2011, 12:02 PM
I would like to say that out to 800 yards my Ar-10 is just as accurate as most bolt guns. I have not shot it farther then that. But I did spend a little more than 1500 bucks on it.