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View Full Version : ATTN: Do Not Do Business with Entreprise Arms (Update Pg. 4)


xm177
09-20-2011, 9:32 PM
For the most part, Ive never really had a terrible experience in a CA gun shop. There are those occasional times of poor customer service but nothing ever to really write about. But my recent experience with Entreprise Arms warrants a thread to warn others.

Recently I had two long guns sent to Entreprise from out-of-state. One was a AR I bought off gunbroker and the other was a MP5 clone I had built by Jeff Walters (Ghilliebear on HKPRO.com). The first to arrive was the AR. I came by their storefront, filled out the paperwork, and did a inspection of the gun for any problems. The AR was in pristine condition, no scratches or dings. They had a new storefront employee named Arnold. I could tell off-the-bat that this guy is/was a heavy drug user from his behavior and speech patterns. He even asked me if I knew if there was a way to get a violent misdemeanor expunged from your record so he could buy a Saiga shotgun. It bothered me a little that he would be handling my stuff but the gun was already here. Returned on the 10th day and upon opening the box at home I noticed a large gash across the upper receiver and some knurly where the receivers had been snapped together haphazardly. Not being one to instantly start pointing fingers, I assumed somehow I must have overlooked it. I contacted the out-of-state dealer and they honorably replaced it with one in perfect condition. The manager did mention that he looked over the rifle before it shipped and didn't see any external damage.

Next came the MP5 clone. For those of you on HKPRO, you know the quality of work Jeff Walters produces. His builds are unquestionably some of the best. He has an perfect reputation on HKPRO for a reason. I tracked the package anxiously and called Entreprise the day it was supposed to arrive to see if they had received it yet. Arnold picked up and confirmed that the MP5 had arrived. He also mentioned that he had never seen anything like it and though it was "cool". This comment really unsettled me. So on my next free day I dropped by Entreprise to start the DROS but this time I was met by a gunsmith. He brought out the gun but informed me that their DROS system was down and that he would call me when it was back up. Again, the gun checked out completely. This seemingly minor inconvenience would balloon into over a month and a half of them telling me their DROS system is down but it "should be up soon". Finally we start the DROS 11 days ago. Picked up my MP5 clone yesterday and field stripped it after getting home. I about lost it when I saw rust forming around the muzzle. Turned the receiver up to the light and the bore was dark. Running a patch through it yeilded a dark reddish brown.

First I spoke with Jeff. Knowing his reputation, it was hard to believe the corrosion could have been caused by a blatant oversight or negligence on his part. Jeff detailed his meticulously operation including his final checks before departure. They only test with Winchester white box and they wipe down the bolt and run a patch through the bore with Rem Oil. They ship the gun in a regular brown box (not a hard case). The type of corrosion on the gun just didn't line up with a manufacturer error.

I drove over to Entreprise first thing this morning. Once again I was met with a gunsmith. I began to start describing my issue when another gunsmith from the back came in to overhear. He became livid at my insinuation that they had damaged the gun. He screamed in my face, "you're ****ing crazy". I asked, "Where's Arnold?" and he yelled, "That doesn't matter". Another employee, hearing the commotion, rushed over to de-escalate the situation. The irate gunsmith finally went to the back after some coaxing. Speaking with the calmer employee I showed him the damage. He said it couldn't have been their fault and it had to be Jeff's. I mentioned Jeff doesn't use corrosive ammo and personally checks and oils each gun before sending them. I added that I had recently transferred an AR that was damaged on pickup too. He disregarded the connection and made an irrelevant comment, "even Boeing makes mistakes". I then asked, "Where is the employee that handled my guns before - Arnold?" He said Arnold hasn't showed up to work in 3 weeks. He added that Arnold has no interest in shooting guns. He ended the conversation saying they were not going to take responsibility and that I needed to take it up with the manufacturer.

Calgunners, do not do business with Entreprise Arms. They are a shady business with questionable employees. There are plenty of other stand up shops in So Cal. Please inform your friends and family to not make the same mistake as I did.

nelson1972
09-20-2011, 9:36 PM
where are they located?

shark92651
09-20-2011, 9:37 PM
We have never experienced the DROS system being "down" since we have started business. Perhaps their internet was down, but we have never seen the server or service down. I think the system can also be "down" for an FFL that doesn't pay their DROS bill or is having issues with changing their CFD because of a change of ownership or something like that.

xm177
09-20-2011, 9:42 PM
Irwindale

Hozr
09-20-2011, 9:46 PM
I thought that even if the DROS system is down the paperwork could be initiatedand entered at a later time. What kind of FFL would tolerate DROS being down for a month?

Tarn_Helm
09-20-2011, 9:49 PM
For the most part, Ive never really had a terrible experience in a CA gun shop. There are those occasional times of poor customer service but nothing ever to really write about. But my recent experience with Entreprise Arms warrants a thread to warn others.

Recently I had two long guns sent to Entreprise from out-of-state. One was a AR I bought off gunbroker and the other was a MP5 clone I had built by Jeff Walters (Ghilliebear on HKPRO.com). The first to arrive was the AR. I came by their storefront, filled out the paperwork, and did a inspection of the gun for any problems. The AR was in pristine condition, no scratches or dings. They had a new storefront employee named Arnold. I could tell off-the-bat that this guy is/was a heavy drug user from his behavior and speech patterns. He even asked me if I knew if there was a way to get a violent misdemeanor expunged from your record so he could buy a Saiga shotgun. It bothered me a little that he would be handling my stuff but the gun was already here. Returned on the 10th day and upon opening the box at home I noticed a large gash across the upper receiver and some knurly where the receivers had been snapped together haphazardly. Not being one to instantly start pointing fingers, I assumed somehow I must have overlooked it. I contacted the out-of-state dealer and they honorably replaced it with one in perfect condition. The manager did mention that he looked over the rifle before it shipped and didn't see any external damage.

Next came the MP5 clone. For those of you on HKPRO, you know the quality of work Jeff Walters produces. His builds are unquestionably some of the best. He has an perfect reputation on HKPRO for a reason. I tracked the package anxiously and called Entreprise the day it was supposed to arrive to see if they had received it yet. Arnold picked up and confirmed that the MP5 had arrived. He also mentioned that he had never seen anything like it and though it was "cool". This comment really unsettled me. So on my next free day I dropped by Entreprise to start the DROS but this time I was met by a gunsmith. He brought out the gun but informed me that their DROS system was down and that he would call me when it was back up. Again, the gun checked out completely. This seemingly minor inconvenience would balloon into over a month and a half of them telling me their DROS system is down but it "should be up soon". Finally we start the DROS 11 days ago. Picked up my MP5 clone yesterday and field stripped it after getting home. I about lost it when I saw rust forming around the muzzle. Turned the receiver up to the light and the bore was dark. Running a patch through it yeilded a dark reddish brown.

First I spoke with Jeff. Knowing his reputation, it was hard to believe the corrosion could have been caused by a blatant oversight or negligence on his part. Jeff detailed his meticulously operation including his final checks before departure. They only test with Winchester white box and they wipe down the bolt and run a patch through the bore with Rem Oil. They ship the gun in a regular brown box (not a hard case). The type of corrosion on the gun just didn't line up with a manufacturer error.

I drove over to Entreprise first thing this morning. Once again I was met with a gunsmith. I began to start describing my issue when another gunsmith from the back came in to overhear. He became livid at my insinuation that they had damaged the gun. He screamed in my face, "you're ****ing crazy". I asked, "Where's Arnold?" and he yelled, "That doesn't matter". Another employee, hearing the commotion, rushed over to de-escalate the situation. The irate gunsmith finally went to the back after some coaxing. Speaking with the calmer employee I showed him the damage. He said it couldn't have been their fault and it had to be Jeff's. I mentioned Jeff doesn't use corrosive ammo and personally checks and oils each gun before sending them. I added that I had recently transferred an AR that was damaged on pickup too. He disregarded the connection and made an irrelevant comment, "even Boeing makes mistakes". I then asked, "Where is the employee that handled my guns before - Arnold?" He said Arnold hasn't showed up to work in 3 weeks. He added that Arnold has no interest in shooting guns. He ended the conversation saying they were not going to take responsibility and that I needed to take it up with the manufacturer.

Calgunners, do not do business with Entreprise Arms. They are a shady business with questionable employees. There are plenty of other stand up shops in So Cal. Please inform your friends and family to not make the same mistake as I did.

Earwax Arms will never get nickel out of me.

Thanks for the tip.

richie3888
09-20-2011, 9:52 PM
Smh

2600fromAtari
09-20-2011, 10:08 PM
Sounds like CA's own version of Lancaster Arms. Sorry you had to go through that, and thanks for the head's up. You're not the first. I remember EA had or has a rep on the board. Any rebuttals?

dieselpower
09-20-2011, 10:43 PM
they took your MP5 out shooting...but many will say this is a "civil matter" :rolleyes: You have no idea, what or WHO was shot with it...

I'd have the local PD take a report on it. They will say its a civil matter, just be firm about wanting it documented that someone fired the firearm after it left the builder and before you took possession.

Us3rName
09-20-2011, 10:51 PM
Thanks, I will spread the word at my place of work.

We gets lots of savvy folks there.

NorCalK9.com
09-20-2011, 11:13 PM
Thats crazy. I feel so bad for you I wanna appologize.
I woulda lost it on that gunsmith.

tenpercentfirearms
09-20-2011, 11:33 PM
We have never experienced the DROS system being "down" since we have started business. Perhaps their internet was down, but we have never seen the server or service down. I think the system can also be "down" for an FFL that doesn't pay their DROS bill or is having issues with changing their CFD because of a change of ownership or something like that.

I would urge any consumer to instantly question the honesty of any dealer who says DROS is down. It is true that DROS is down daily from 11 PM until 7 AM the next day. However, that is it. As Shark said, I have never seen DROS be down except once. That was when I neglected to pay my bill for three months.

Other than that. It always works, all the time.

So if a dealer says DROS is down, they are probably full of crap. Offer to call up another local shop that you know might be busy and find out if their DROS is down too.

I can't attest to anything else in this thread, but like Shark, I too have never had DROS go down unless I caused it to from non-payment.

Tango-Alpha
09-20-2011, 11:48 PM
That's definitely sucks. Sorry to hear about your situation with EA. It has been duly noted. I won't be shopping there either.

SanPedroShooter
09-20-2011, 11:55 PM
What exactly do think happend? They shot the HK, or just left sitting out or something? Spilled coffe on it?

and DROS down for a month... I wonder if their dirtbag employee took off with it, and they had to try and get it back...

bob7122
09-21-2011, 12:24 AM
damn that sucks, they did a horrible thing to you. to just not own up to it and compensate you; that is just horrible. a good business policy would be to buy you a new one because one of their employees on their payroll screwed a customer.

arsilva32
09-21-2011, 12:40 AM
I would urge any consumer to instantly question the honesty of any dealer who says DROS is down. It is true that DROS is down daily from 11 PM until 7 AM the next day. However, that is it. As Shark said, I have never seen DROS be down except once. That was when I neglected to pay my bill for three months.

Other than that. It always works, all the time.

So if a dealer says DROS is down, they are probably full of crap. Offer to call up another local shop that you know might be busy and find out if their DROS is down too.

I can't attest to anything else in this thread, but like Shark, I too have never had DROS go down unless I caused it to from non-payment.



lol excellent idea about telling them your going to call another shop to see if there dros is down to. i would love to see them talk there way out of that.

pacrimguru
09-21-2011, 1:50 AM
they pulled a bait and switch on me with an AK during the obama scare of '08. i won't buy from them again.

pyro3k2
09-21-2011, 1:54 AM
they took your MP5 out shooting...but many will say this is a "civil matter" :rolleyes: You have no idea, what or WHO was shot with it...

I'd have the local PD take a report on it. They will say its a civil matter, just be firm about wanting it documented that someone fired the firearm after it left the builder and before you took possession.

Normally I think Diesel takes stuff to the extreme ends of the spectrum, but in this instance I will have to agree. Clear evidence the firearm was used with an entire month's worth of time that's not accounted for as well as a month of Arnold's time not accounted for as well. Get a paper trail going and I wouldn't stop communicating with EA until I got a straight story and compensated for property damage.

richzmn
09-21-2011, 2:38 AM
You should have checked out the dealer?

When I lived in socal, I only dealt with Riflegear and OC Armory.

Now that I'm in Arizona, I only go to AJI Sporting Goods.

It's not difficult to figure out who's the best. One trip to any of these stores will tell you that.

Sorry about your trouble.

dascoyne
09-21-2011, 6:03 AM
I'm angry for you, man.

Mail Clerk
09-21-2011, 6:47 AM
calicojack7,

In either case the manufacturer should replace the entire rifle for you since the bores corroded. Did you have a chance to give the bore a good solvent scrubbing? Sometimes if you catch it in time the corrosion hasn't eaten into the metal yet or it's so light you won't even notice. After all you have nothing to loose by doing it under the assumption the factory would replace it.

Personally I'm very surprised EA would do that to your rifles. I've done light business with them in the past and have never given back anything that had any corrosion issues. I admit they gave my rifles back dirty from test firing but never rusted. At least they're still in Irwindale cuz there's not many gunsmiths in business in California anymore.

Anyway where can anyone get 9mm ammo that's corrosive in nature these days???? I've never seen any on store shelves.

Mail Clerk

goodlookin1
09-21-2011, 7:21 AM
This truly is an unbelievable story! I would be absolutely outraged! DROS out for a month? Laughable! Like so nobody has been able to buy guns in CA for the past month? Right. They weren't man enough to admit that they failed to make their DROS payments, either by neglect or by inability. And WTH are they doing employing someone who is likely a drug user and is a self-admitted prohibited person??? Prohibited people cant even touch a gun....how on earth can he be an employee of a gun shop?

Something in this story doesnt add up. And I agree with Mail Clerk just above, who said that it is difficult finding corrosive 9mm ammo these days. I'm wondering if it's possible they left the gun in a damp environment after they shot it or something?

Again, something is weird here. OP, you definitely dont have the whole story, and likely never will. They're obviously not going to admit fault; evidence is in how they have already chosen to reply. But in any case, this is certainly an FFL to avoid at all costs.

They were certainly shooting your gun, and without consent, that's theft in my opinion. I would take Dieselpower's advice and make a police report. Given the "violent misdemeanor" history of one of the (ex?) employees, you dont know what how the gun was used. Best to play it safe.

dascoyne
09-21-2011, 7:26 AM
You need to post this on Yelp!
Enterprise Arms has one review on Yelp and it's 5 stars.
You need to share your experience.

pacifico23
09-21-2011, 7:31 AM
^^^This^^^

As well of they have a merchantcircle account, google account. All potential consumers should know about thius

SkyStorm82
09-21-2011, 7:32 AM
Hmmm.....I've recently been thinking about buying a FAL and this company was one of those who popped up in my quick search on that particular rifle.

I'd like to see them respond here and address this issue of yours.

crazychinaman
09-21-2011, 7:35 AM
Sorry to hear you problem with Entreprise.I have said that in the past not to use Entreprise or any of there products.They have a bad raputation. I know Ghillibear,He does top notch work.

PolishMike
09-21-2011, 7:40 AM
I would urge any consumer to instantly question the honesty of any dealer who says DROS is down. It is true that DROS is down daily from 11 PM until 7 AM the next day. However, that is it. As Shark said, I have never seen DROS be down except once. That was when I neglected to pay my bill for three months.

Other than that. It always works, all the time.

So if a dealer says DROS is down, they are probably full of crap. Offer to call up another local shop that you know might be busy and find out if their DROS is down too.

I can't attest to anything else in this thread, but like Shark, I too have never had DROS go down unless I caused it to from non-payment.

Yep, DROS is actually a very reliable system.

I have had time where my comcast cable (internet) goes down but that is usually for an hour or so.

paul0660
09-21-2011, 7:47 AM
Didn't this Arnold fellow have to have a COE to work there?

starsnuffer
09-21-2011, 7:59 AM
What is it with FFL's and HKs?

I had the same thing happen with my MR556. . . . only the shop cleaned and oiled it really good (I knew something was wrong by the way it smelled, oil was different). I took it home and stripped it, it was cleaned really nicely until I got to the piston, which was caked in heavy carbon. Guess they forgot about that part. No damage, just pisses me off when people do this kind of thing. It's amazing they stay in business.

-W

akjunkie
09-21-2011, 8:12 AM
the culprit.

www.entreprise.com

on a side note, doesnt the MP5 have a Chrome lined barrel??

coyotebait
09-21-2011, 8:14 AM
Hmmm.....I've recently been thinking about buying a FAL and this company was one of those who popped up in my quick search on that particular rifle.

I'd like to see them respond here and address this issue of yours.

Check with E.B.R. Works. He's a vendor here and is located in Thousand Oaks.

AlliedArmory
09-21-2011, 8:16 AM
I have heard of the DROS being down before, but of course that was at Enterprise Arms when picking up a rifle shipped from out of state a couple of years ago. My Brother also had very half-*** work done to his AR there by one of their smiths.

Bhobbs
09-21-2011, 8:43 AM
Would it be legal to put a lock on your firearm when the FFL receives it before the 10 days even starts? If so, I might do that next time I transfer a firearm.

CHS
09-21-2011, 8:51 AM
Didn't this Arnold fellow have to have a COE to work there?

No. The COE system is entirely optional.

paul0660
09-21-2011, 8:54 AM
No. The COE system is entirely optional.

Thanks, another fail for Enterprise.

Chatterbox
09-21-2011, 10:23 AM
Over the past few years, there has been consistent reports of Entreprise's shadyness and bad service.

johncmng
09-21-2011, 10:23 AM
I didn't know MP5 were legal in Cali. Does it have a Bullet Button?

TayR_1911
09-21-2011, 10:28 AM
I was about to take the gamble and buy a FAL from them too. Good thing i didn't. Thanks for the heads up. I guess I'll be saving a bit more and going with the DSA FAL lol.

ke6guj
09-21-2011, 10:36 AM
I didn't know MP5 were legal in Cali. Does it have a Bullet Button?Full-auto and semi-auto SBR MP5s are not legal in CA, but semi-auto MP5 rifles that don't violate the SBR or AW regs are legal in CA.

It could have a magazine lock installed or be set up featureless and still have a standard magazine release.

Packy14
09-21-2011, 10:38 AM
wow, just wow. that sucks big time.. proof again to stick with known reliable shops. Riflegear is top notch in my multiple experiences!!!

wash
09-21-2011, 10:58 AM
I have had one experience with Entreprise.

I went there to buy some FAL parts, most notably a handful of metric gas plugs (not the type with the grenade sight or little lever) and that went fine but for a shop that offers several types of FAL rifle for sale, they only had one or two rifles on display.

I've read about Entreprise making FAL uppers that are out of spec and nearly impossible to fix but I have also read that their fully assembled rifles can be OK.

When I looked at prices, buying Entreprise was not so much cheaper than DSA to take a chance on.

I'm glad I made that decision because it looks like I've saved a lot of grief by dealing with DSA (even though they put weird human growth hormone ads in the boxes they ship out).

Any way, they are OK for surplus parts but I am not interested in buying any of the parts they make or using them for FFL services (luckily they are not local to me).

Quickdraw Mcgraw
09-21-2011, 11:05 AM
I would be SO pissed off! I can just imagine Arni or whoever driving around sprayying 9mms out his car window...These guys should be shut down!!

Al Entreprise
09-21-2011, 12:33 PM
I would to apoligize to Calicojack for my coworkers behavior. Thing got heated when he felt he was wrongly accused, we have a policy of never shooting or even handling customers transfer guns. I've been here for years and have never seen it happen.

Calicojacks rifle-pistol was a special case, we never did single shots and the boss was very wary about the transfer. We spent alot of time getting advise before we went through with that transfer.

The things you say about Arnold aren't true although he does tend to talk slowly.

The dros was down but it was because our small city took a long time to renew our yearly license (they don't want gunstores).

Lastly I can assure you we never touched the weapon. Why would we shoot a single shot?


Albert

Us3rName
09-21-2011, 12:33 PM
Here we go, the blame game.


you did not address anything in your post....

DNA
09-21-2011, 12:41 PM
Hey now folks, before we start breaking out the torches has the OP given the courtesy of contacting the proprietor (Walter) to deal with the issue? Or just the employees of the place? Don't we typically try to talk to the person in charge before we start the name calling and the jump to conclusions that drive-bys are being committed with our firearms??

Personally, I have had many dealings with EA without issue. Their DROS system may have been down due to a hardware issue (old computers, issue with phone lines). I remember when they moved I believe Verizon screwed the pooch and they didn't have phone/internet for a week or so.

Heck. Give them a call and ask for Walter.

Dan

Rhythm of Life
09-21-2011, 12:45 PM
Why would we shoot a single shot?


Albert

Because it was "cool"

even then where'd you keep his firearms? A swamp? Rust appearing over the waiting period isn't usually the manufacturer.

Al Entreprise
09-21-2011, 12:58 PM
Guns are kept in our indoor safe, we've never had a problem with rust on transfers. I would like to check it out and ultrasonic it, if that would help.

We have lots of much cooler guns in back.

Albert

Spelunker
09-21-2011, 1:10 PM
They also dont open on time so if you arrive at opening time you may have to wait a 1/2 hour plus for them to show. I wont be back.

Us3rName
09-21-2011, 1:13 PM
Well gees I am glad firearms are kept indoor safe and not outdoors.

ultrasonic it? you would clean it? you didn't ultrasonic after playing?

confused....?

Al Entreprise
09-21-2011, 1:26 PM
Yes we will clean the gun, and no we didn't touch it.

The rust is mainly a result of the black oxide finish. When a gun is blued and is not thoroughly cleaned before shipping, it will give off a brownish red grit when rubbed. It takes a while for the bluing to completely dry. Sometimes even after cleaning, the part will still bleed some more for the next few days depending upon weather conditions.

I know you said they checked it, but on our 9mm ammo that we have here (Fiocchi), the cleaning patch will be much darker. Closer to black than reddish brown that you saw if the weapon was fired.

Lastly, again I would like to apoligize for one of our employee's behavior (he said you walk in an called him a criminal).

Please feel free to call us, we'll try to resolve any problems anyone might have.



Albert

defcon
09-21-2011, 1:39 PM
there's a FFL dealer in Thousand Oaks/Newbury Park area.

EBR works next time.

learning from this, i would put my own lock during the waiting period.

crazy
09-21-2011, 3:04 PM
I would to apoligize to Calicojack for my coworkers behavior. Thing got heated when he felt he was wrongly accused, we have a policy of never shooting or even handling customers transfer guns. I've been here for years and have never seen it happen.

Calicojacks rifle-pistol was a special case, we never did single shots and the boss was very wary about the transfer. We spent alot of time getting advise before we went through with that transfer.

The things you say about Arnold aren't true although he does tend to talk slowly.

The dros was down but it was because our small city took a long time to renew our yearly license (they don't want gunstores).

Lastly I can assure you we never touched the weapon. Why would we shoot a single shot?


Albert

The only question I have is why wouldn't you tell the customer in advance that your licence was being renewed and ask them if they would prefer to DROS at another FFL. The small amount you made on this transfer can't be worth the bad rep you are getting now.

The other question I have is why most gun shops only hire pencil d**k immature morons with no usable people skills. Just wondering.

coyotebait
09-21-2011, 3:40 PM
there's a FFL dealer in Thousand Oaks/Newbury Park area.

EBR works next time.

learning from this, i would put my own lock during the waiting period.

Yes, EBR Works. I just got a stripped lower from him, great guy, great prices, no "gun store B.S.

Al Entreprise
09-21-2011, 3:49 PM
The only question I have is why wouldn't you tell the customer in advance that your licence was being renewed and ask them if they would prefer to DROS at another FFL. The small amount you made on this transfer can't be worth the bad rep you are getting now.

The other question I have is why most gun shops only hire pencil d**k immature morons with no usable people skills. Just wondering.



The gun was a single shot exemption so I'm not sure if other gun shops in the area wanted to do it. The boss didn't want to it and we spent some time to make a decision.

Our fair city only has one employee handling all the licenses, what was supposed to take few days streched into her summer vacation:facepalm:

And yes sometimes the gunsmith are like chefs, we're going to have to leave them in the kitchen. The new boss really wants to focus on making new guns and improving our old ones, retail and transfers are small -especially for the time it takes.

Albert

21SF
09-21-2011, 4:11 PM
calicojack7,

In either case the manufacturer should replace the entire rifle for you since the bores corroded. Did you have a chance to give the bore a good solvent scrubbing? Sometimes if you catch it in time the corrosion hasn't eaten into the metal yet or it's so light you won't even notice. After all you have nothing to loose by doing it under the assumption the factory would replace it.

Personally I'm very surprised EA would do that to your rifles. I've done light business with them in the past and have never given back anything that had any corrosion issues. I admit they gave my rifles back dirty from test firing but never rusted. At least they're still in Irwindale cuz there's not many gunsmiths in business in California anymore.
Anyway where can anyone get 9mm ammo that's corrosive in nature these days???? I've never seen any on store shelves.

Mail Clerk

The gun was a single shot exemption so I'm not sure if other gun shops in the area wanted to do it. The boss didn't want to it and we spent some time to make a decision.

Our fair city only has one employee handling all the licenses, what was supposed to take few days streched into her summer vacation:facepalm:

And yes sometimes the gunsmith are like chefs, we're going to have to leave them in the kitchen. The new boss really wants to focus on making new guns and improving our old ones, retail and transfers are small -especially for the time it takes.
Albert

FAIL!!!!!!!!

Matt@AimSportsInc
09-21-2011, 4:25 PM
I'm kind of disapponted that other vendor/retailers have jumped in and offered their expert opinions on the thread.

None of us were there, and its a matter between Entreprise and the customer. The customer is excercising his right to vent his frustrations, and hopefully it can be resolved.

However, I'm of the opinion that vendor/retailers should not get involved in any way in the dispute between another Calguns Vendor and a forum member, even if their opinion may be correct.

CHS
09-21-2011, 4:37 PM
retail and transfers are small -especially for the time it takes.


What? Doesn't take more than an hour of labor, total.

Takes 10-15 minutes to open up the gun, check against shipping form, enter into the books.

Takes 10-15 minutes to have customer fill out the 4473 and run his DROS at the same time.

10 days later.....

Takes 10-15 minutes to release the gun to the customer.

Takes 10-15 minutes to file the 4473 and update the books with the release.

So. 40-60 minutes in total. And what do you guys get for a transfer fee? $50? $50/hour is a good haul for hardly any labor. Why on earth would you complain about that? That's money in the bank.

CHS
09-21-2011, 4:38 PM
However, I'm of the opinion that vendor/retailers should not get involved in any way in the dispute between another Calguns Vendor and a forum member, even if their opinion may be correct.

You just did :)

MasterYong
09-21-2011, 4:39 PM
:popcorn:

dctex99
09-21-2011, 4:41 PM
Obviouslly they make alot more than $50 building rifles!!! And they don't care about being customer friendly, or building a customer base. I bought a gun today(21st)and can't pick it up til 10/4.....not sure why; guess the dealer wants almost 2 weeks instead of 10 days to hold it,,but a nice guy, so I didn't question! Maybe he wants to make sure I don't buy anything at the Del Mar Gun show Oct 1&2!!

Wicked Pete
09-21-2011, 4:47 PM
Bitter Vetch.

Matt@AimSportsInc
09-21-2011, 4:53 PM
You just did :)

Well, I'm disappointed in your post too.

ProlificARProspect
09-21-2011, 4:57 PM
Well, I'm disappointed in your post too.
^^^^LOL In....

Something ain't right...

I had Enterprise Arms on my radar for future projects, but I never have done any business with them...

OP can you post PICS of damage?

Al Entreprise
09-21-2011, 5:08 PM
What? Doesn't take more than an hour of labor, total.

Takes 10-15 minutes to open up the gun, check against shipping form, enter into the books.

Takes 10-15 minutes to have customer fill out the 4473 and run his DROS at the same time.

10 days later.....

Takes 10-15 minutes to release the gun to the customer.

Takes 10-15 minutes to file the 4473 and update the books with the release.

So. 40-60 minutes in total. And what do you guys get for a transfer fee? $50? $50/hour is a good haul for hardly any labor. Why on earth would you complain about that? That's money in the bank.

Obviouslly they make alot more than $50 building rifles!!! And they don't care about being customer friendly, or building a customer base. I bought a gun today(21st)and can't pick it up til 10/4.....not sure why; guess the dealer wants almost 2 weeks instead of 10 days to hold it,,but a nice guy, so I didn't question! Maybe he wants to make sure I don't buy anything at the Del Mar Gun show Oct 1&2!!

Yes its true for most customers, unfortunately I'm a friendly guy and some want to tell their life's story don't get me wrong I like it. And yes the hourly rate isn't bad. And we are friendly, this case is an abberation in term of friendliness, never heard yelling in our shop till he walked in. We do have over 100k customer in our database, I guess we only hear from the upset ones.

Boss says its just a matter of focus, we've only got a limited people and time. He want to focus on new guns (like our new 1911's and soon our new rifles). We're also spending a lot of time improving what we currently make --No jokes please-- Basically get back to our core business.

We're still going to keep doing it (I think :confused:), but its never been his priority.

Albert

hardluck
09-21-2011, 6:01 PM
The other question I have is why most gun shops only hire pencil d**k immature morons with no usable people skills. Just wondering.


^This, its odd you say that. Had a similar experience at Metal Dog today.
was basically called a liar to my face with attitude. Won't get my money after that. Hummmm:eek:

Noah3683
09-21-2011, 6:13 PM
^This, its odd you say that. Had a similar experience at Metal Dog today.
was basically called a liar to my face with attitude. Won't get my money after that. Hummmm:eek:

I love Metal Dog. One of my favorite vendors albeit, I've only dealt with them online or by phone.

hardluck
09-21-2011, 6:41 PM
I love Metal Dog. One of my favorite vendors albeit, I've only dealt with them online or by phone.

Not sure which one he was but its to bad. just not my type of place.
Thankfully there is Valkire Arms.

dascoyne
09-21-2011, 6:57 PM
Valkyrie hasn't done me wrong yet.

MrExel17
09-21-2011, 7:07 PM
Sorry to hear that, thanks for the heads ups!

CHS
09-21-2011, 7:12 PM
Well, I'm disappointed in your post too.

Since I'm not a vendor, I'm kind of confused how this applies to me....

xm177
09-21-2011, 7:12 PM
I think this thread is getting off topic. Al, this is simple simple logic - either Jeff Walters (Ghilliebear on HKPRO) or you (Entreprise) are to blame for my rusted barrel. We can agree that I am not to blame, correct? And about that ultrasonic cleaning...unless it can get rid of pitting, no thanks. I cleaned and scrubbed out my barrel and there is pitting up and down the full length of the bore. Thats a rare genuine HK MP5 barrel that usually only comes in $2000 kits. Cheapest replacement Ive found is $500, not including the $200 labor cost for a barrel swap.

Now to performance and track record. First off, how I was dealt with by each party. 5 min. after emailing Jeff I received a phone call. Jeff was very concerned about the damage and earnestly wanted to know what he could do. After describing the type of rust, he concluded that there's no possibility that WWB ammo could have caused the corrosion. Jeff detailed his process starting with an inspection of each kit that comes in before starting a build to check if the barrels have any bulging. If they do, he contacts the customer immediately before continuing. If the barrel does pass inspection, its then goes through an thorough ultra sonic cleaning. Lastly, after test firing each one personally, he cleans the bolt and runs a patch of oil through the barrel. This man takes great pride in his work and has an immaculate track record when it comes to quality and customer service (please search his feedback on HKPRO). He doesn't even advertise, all his business comes through word of mouth. He concluded that he would still check everything in his logs (he keeps meticulously paperwork, including the box number for the ammo used through each gun) to see if there were any mistakes on his part.

Now to how I was dealt with by Entreprise. First I asked to speak with Walter (the owner) but the first gunsmith told me he was about to leave. Why he made an excuse instead of attempting to contact Walter I won't know. Next was the irate gunsmith who proceeds to scream in my face and use expletives. Never was I asked, "How can I help you, what's the issue?" The calmer employee, unlike Jeff, was absolutely sure it couldn't have been their fault. He wasn't even compelled to look into the matter (I had to request an investigation on their part). He gave me excuse after excuse. After being told that I had to take it up with the manufacturer, I received no phone calls or emails to follow up on the matter. This is completely aside from the fact that the original employee who was helping me hasn't showed up for work in 3 weeks and asked me how to expunge a violent misdemeanor. Lastly, Al....instead of contacting me directly, you decide to passively comment on this thread hoping I might read and CONTACT YOU INSTEAD for a cleaning up my damaged gun.

Ok, now to the next points. Al, you throw up this excuse for the rust: The rust is mainly a result of the black oxide finish. When a gun is blued and is not thoroughly cleaned before shipping, it will give off a brownish red grit when rubbed. It takes a while for the bluing to completely dry. Sometimes even after cleaning, the part will still bleed some more for the next few days depending upon weather conditions.

This is completely wrong. First off, HK barrels are not blued. Second, the barrel still has the original finish. Jeff doesn't refinish the barrels. The heavy rusting inside the bore and covering the muzzle doesn't even begin to line up with your explanation.

Next: I know you said they checked it, but on our 9mm ammo that we have here (Fiocchi), the cleaning patch will be much darker. Closer to black than reddish brown that you saw if the weapon was fired.

This type of comment is unsettling. Basically you are hypothetically stating that gun could have been fired by Entreprise. The color is irrelevant. Even if the gun didn't have pitting from rust, the idea that a FFL would fire a customer's gun is unacceptable.

You also state that, "why would you fire a single shot?" Well it aint a single shot if you remove the mag. Once again the possibility that Entreprise employees fire customer's guns is presented when you say that you have much cooler guns in the back. I am concerned for anyone who has something of high value currently in your possession.

To my last point - one that Jeff mentioned in my phone conversation. Why didn't you guys check the bore for any live rounds or obstructions? It is common procedure for any FFL to do this for safety reasons. At that point, you would have clearly noticed rust and corrosion inside and covering the barrel. Jeff pointed out that would be the first thing he would do. He would contact the customer immediately if he discovered any problems with a gun before continuing with the transfer.

Fjold
09-21-2011, 7:20 PM
So the DROS system wasn't down for a month, it was actually the business license that was slow being renewed.

So who lied to the OP and told him the DROS system was down?

If they will lie about that..............................

xm177
09-21-2011, 7:36 PM
Fjold, good point. Also, in my initial post, I didn't conclude that the gun must have been shot. I made the point that Jeff in no way brings in corrosive elements into his build process, including ammo. Al seemed to be really fixated on talking about the kind of ammo they use (hypothetically through customer's guns).

Al also seems fixated on the fact that it was a single shot pistol. This too is irrelevant. This comment makes no attempt to address the real issue of damage. Aside, many local FFLs will transfer single shot pistols including Riflegear, Ammo Bros, Gunrunners, etc., etc.

There is a right way to resolve this issue and a wrong way. The right way would include a phone call from Walter and full compensation for the replacement barrel and labor. It's sad that I, the customer, has to tell you this.

coltm4le
09-21-2011, 8:20 PM
Wow, i'm speechless. I've never seen such an unprofessional company. Enterprise, you've lost a customer in me. I'm sure many more will follow.

supertrooper
09-21-2011, 8:20 PM
Would it be legal to put a lock on your firearm when the FFL receives it before the 10 days even starts? If so, I might do that next time I transfer a firearm.

i think most shops will let you. when i got my last rifle the shop was fine with me taking the bolt with me for the 10 day wait. slaping on a cable lock and taking the key would have stop them from firing it.

tenpercentfirearms
09-21-2011, 9:08 PM
I'm kind of disapponted that other vendor/retailers have jumped in and offered their expert opinions on the thread.

None of us were there, and its a matter between Entreprise and the customer. The customer is excercising his right to vent his frustrations, and hopefully it can be resolved.

However, I'm of the opinion that vendor/retailers should not get involved in any way in the dispute between another Calguns Vendor and a forum member, even if their opinion may be correct.

The reason I read other vendor hate threads is so I can learn from them. What are other shops doing that are pissing customers off? Then I try not to do such things.

I see a common theme where dealers claim DROS is down. My fellow board members need to know that DROS doesn't "go down". If a dealer tells you that, odds are they are stalling for some reason.

If that upsets you, so be it. If you read this and realize it isn't a good idea to tell customers that "DROS is down", then you are better off as a dealer for it.

And this is the Centerfire Rifle forum. Anything within the forum rules is fair game here. If you want to have a safe place to talk to your customers, do it in your own forum. I will not go into your forum and correct you there.

Out here, I am just as much a community member as I am an FFL. Everything here is fair game.

Again, it would appear that DROS wasn't down and it was a licensing issue. That crap happens. Just be up front with your customers.

The consequence is when you don't shoot their firearms during the ten day wait, as that is just plain stupid, they won't believe you because you lied to them once before. And it might not have been a lie. A less sophisticated employee might have been giving misinformation. Still, it puts you up a creek quick.

All dealers learn from this thread. If you forget to pay your DROS bill (I have), tell your employees to tell the truth. "We forgot to pay our DROS bill. DROS will be back up in a day or two. Sorry for the inconvenience."

"The city is screwing us by not renewing our business license in a timely fashion. Hopefully we will have this sorted out in a few days. Sorry for the delay."

Al Entreprise
09-21-2011, 9:19 PM
I briefed Walter and he will call you tomorrow.

When the local, state, or Federal license expire the Dros will go down. There is an incredible amount of paper work to keep track of.

We also don't have any corrosive handgun ammo, does anyone even make it? We don't have any Mp5 magazines either. If the barrel has pitting isn't more likely that it there before rather then the few weeks it was here.

Will you stop accusing us shooting your gun, we didn't touch it. We only handle transfer guns when we do the dros and during pickup. We don't check for rust or any thing at all because the weapons come in all kinds of condition.

This is probably the worst place to hash out these problems, Walter will call you first thing.

Albert

Albert

akjunkie
09-21-2011, 9:20 PM
Wow, i'm speechless. I've never seen such an unprofessional company. Enterprise, you've lost a customer in me. I'm sure many more will follow.

Big + 1!

Packy14
09-21-2011, 10:46 PM
pics?

shooter5
09-21-2011, 11:19 PM
Would it be legal to put a lock on your firearm when the FFL receives it before the 10 days even starts? If so, I might do that next time I transfer a firearm.

^ what a FANTASTIC Idea!! never even crossed my mind.. I guess it would be similarly nieve to think that next Mustang you buy didnt get a "joy-ride" beating by one of the lot punks before they gave you the keys... Wow i'd be pissed..

(1) Just because of this I'd have any transfer locked the entire time it wasnt in mine or the sellers hands..

(2) As a dealer doing a tranfer I would IMEDIATELY inspect any firearm i took in and did "condition report" on paper when I took possesion of it..

Had it been Ghillibears neglect, they would have notified you imediatly of its condition when they received it!

(3) who the hell would put corrosive ammo in such a hard to-come-by or exotic weapon?

(4) never heard of DROS being "down" (for a month anyway) either..

(5) Just saw this horrific story on Hkpro the other day.. Guy in Co. had an MP5 "parts kit" and a NEW non sear reciver shipped to his FFL.. and they turned it all over to the BATF!!! for having a FA bolt or group..

They (Enterprize) mentioned some trepidation about doing the transfer in the first place..

Maybe they pulled something like this on you? just a thought.. Wouldn't be that surprised with the shady stuff BATF has been up to..

(warning dont read unless you REALLY want to get pissed..)

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-clone-talk/138507-help-ffl-dealer-gave-my-kits-receivers-atf-because-full-auto-carriers-11.html

crazy
09-21-2011, 11:43 PM
FAIL!!!!!!!!

This x 1000.

xxMichaelAnthony
09-22-2011, 12:16 AM
Would it be legal to put a lock on your firearm when the FFL receives it before the 10 days even starts? If so, I might do that next time I transfer a firearm.

Perfectly legal assuming its already paid for. Its your firearm. Buying an AR you could take the upper home with you if you wanted to. The ten days is on the firearm and CA says the firearm is the part that has the serial number on it.

crazy
09-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Yes its true for most customers, unfortunately I'm a friendly guy and some want to tell their life's story don't get me wrong I like it. And yes the hourly rate isn't bad. And we are friendly, this case is an abberation in term of friendliness, never heard yelling in our shop till he walked in. We do have over 100k customer in our database, I guess we only hear from the upset ones.

Boss says its just a matter of focus, we've only got a limited people and time. He want to focus on new guns (like our new 1911's and soon our new rifles). We're also spending a lot of time improving what we currently make --No jokes please-- Basically get back to our core business.

We're still going to keep doing it (I think :confused:), but its never been his priority.

Albert

I don't know if you realize that you are doing a very poor job of representing your firm in a good light. That is not meant to be a personal attack, just an observation.

Your first mistake was agreeing to do a transfer that you weren't sure you wanted to do. Your DROS system was down because of licensing issues and you lied about it. The way I see it, in business, you under promise and over deliver. If you reverse that, you are doomed to fail. This was just the beginning of this disaster.

DNA
09-22-2011, 1:41 AM
83 posts (well 84 after mine) and no pictures of the damage?

Dan

Rob454
09-22-2011, 5:20 AM
If I felt uneasy the most simple thing to do is to is to pull the bolt and then run a trigger lock through the gun. They do not need the bolt to DROS a gun. I would go as far as taking pictures of the gun if i felt the need to do so.
I have sent a few friends to Riflegear and Fieldtime and I have not had one of them come back with a horror story like that. In fact I have not had one shop I have done a DROS at do anything even remotely close to that.
It makes no difference to me if its a gun store or whatever , to use a customers property and not only use it without permission but to damage it in the process is unacceptable. What I do not understand is why did the dealer get so defensive? You can be calm and rational. DROS system down for a month? yeah ok.:rolleyes:
So far i can't tell who is right. We have no pics from the OP showing the damage and Enterprise seems to be explaining what they plan on doing to expand the business. Neither one can prove how the gun was brought in before DROS or given to the customer back at pick up time. I tend to believe the OP simply because if there was a issue when the gun showed up the manufacturer would be the one answering questions. Given that the issue came after DROS/pick up time its either neglect in storage from the FFL or they actually shot the gun while in DROS.
And while YOU may have cooler guns in the back that means absolutely nothing as far as willingness to shoot other guns. Especially what seems to be a custom built gun.
The manufacturer should not be responsible or warranty the damage to the guns. Neglect/abuse/stupidity is not a warranty issue. I guess its gonna get to the point where a manufacturer will have to take pics of the product before they box and ship it and after that you need to take pics of the gun when you get it and throw a trigger lock and pull the bolt before DROS.
I would get some pics of the gun damage and narraration of the sequence of events ASAP in case you end up in small claims court.

Mail Clerk
09-22-2011, 6:37 AM
No matter what went wrong or who can be at fault..... I firmly believe the customer should be satisfied through and though. After all both businesses involve customer satisfication based. Why doesn't both gun shop get together and work out a deal between each other???? Why don't they both split the cost of replacing the barrel with a new one instead of allowing everyone to chime in and make each shop look bad. Good business is a happy customer over all. Split the fee and move on.

coyotebait
09-22-2011, 7:07 AM
What? Doesn't take more than an hour of labor, total.

Takes 10-15 minutes to open up the gun, check against shipping form, enter into the books.

Takes 10-15 minutes to have customer fill out the 4473 and run his DROS at the same time.

10 days later.....

Takes 10-15 minutes to release the gun to the customer.

Takes 10-15 minutes to file the 4473 and update the books with the release.

So. 40-60 minutes in total. And what do you guys get for a transfer fee? $50? $50/hour is a good haul for hardly any labor. Why on earth would you complain about that? That's money in the bank.
Not to mention, these "small" transactions can pull customers in for big purchases. Mishandling a "small" transaction can loose a lot of potential future business.
So the DROS system wasn't down for a month, it was actually the business license that was slow being renewed.

So who lied to the OP and told him the DROS system was down?

If they will lie about that..............................
This!! The shop may not have fired the gun, they may have done everything legit, but they started the transaction with a lie, therefore, everything after may also be a lie. Bad business.

The reason I read other vendor hate threads is so I can learn from them. What are other shops doing that are pissing customers off? Then I try not to do such things.

I see a common theme where dealers claim DROS is down. My fellow board members need to know that DROS doesn't "go down". If a dealer tells you that, odds are they are stalling for some reason.

If that upsets you, so be it. If you read this and realize it isn't a good idea to tell customers that "DROS is down", then you are better off as a dealer for it.

And this is the Centerfire Rifle forum. Anything within the forum rules is fair game here. If you want to have a safe place to talk to your customers, do it in your own forum. I will not go into your forum and correct you there.

Out here, I am just as much a community member as I am an FFL. Everything here is fair game.

Again, it would appear that DROS wasn't down and it was a licensing issue. That crap happens. Just be up front with your customers.

The consequence is when you don't shoot their firearms during the ten day wait, as that is just plain stupid, they won't believe you because you lied to them once before. And it might not have been a lie. A less sophisticated employee might have been giving misinformation. Still, it puts you up a creek quick.

All dealers learn from this thread. If you forget to pay your DROS bill (I have), tell your employees to tell the truth. "We forgot to pay our DROS bill. DROS will be back up in a day or two. Sorry for the inconvenience."

"The city is screwing us by not renewing our business license in a timely fashion. Hopefully we will have this sorted out in a few days. Sorry for the delay."
This will also help some of us to I.D. the "good shops." I for one have no desire to go to a shop that has gunsmiths that are obviously "premadonna" and a "loose cannon." Obviously, we have no way of actually knowing what really happened there, but a lot can be learned from the vendors responses.

BHPFan
09-22-2011, 7:09 AM
Check with E.B.R. Works. He's a vendor here and is located in Thousand Oaks.

Or Addax Tactical in San Fernando. plus they have the advantage on not being too far from ASR so you can shoot your new toy right after releasing it.

tenpercentfirearms
09-22-2011, 7:10 AM
What I am about to say is a very general observation and has nothing to do with the specifics of this case.

Here is part of the problem. It is a transfer. I often do not look at transfers or open the box until the customer gets here. Why? I don't really care much about your transfer. You bought the gun somewhere else and I am just a middle man helping you stay legal.

If anyone accused me of shooting their gun during the ten day wait, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I do not shoot customer guns. So if you came in and said this gun had been shot and I need to split the cost of replacing it or some such nonsense, it wouldn't happen. You can claim that is bad customer service, but the facts are, I don't shoot customer guns so I am not going to be responsible for the condition of your transfer (unless I drop it and put a big scratch in it).

If you are the type of customer who has drama like this and feel like you need to lock up your gun while it is in a ten day wait, then really your $50 transfer fee I am making doesn't sound that enticing. Hey if you want to lock up your gun with a cable lock during the ten days, I have no problem doing that. It will make you feel better and less likely to slander my name on Calguns, that is cool.

Really what needs to be learned here from everyone is this.

1) Consumer inspect your transfer gun. You might even want to be so anal as to take pictures and lock it up if the dealer will allow it. If you are going to try and make a case that the transfer FFL screwed up your gun, you are going to want evidence.

2)FFLs, inspect your transfer guns. I get in a bad habit of not caring about what condition your gun arrives in, as it isn't my problem (this is not to say I don't care about your gun when it is in my custody, which I do care since you are paying me to take care of it). So for me to avoid these issues of he said she said, if I see something suspect at the beginning, I would be better off reporting it to the consumer immediately.

3)Transfers are not a gun shop's bread and butter. Part of the reason brick and mortar stores don't care about transfers is they are not going to pay the bills with them. I mainly do them for regular customers who can't find what they want at my store and find it somewhere else. In the interest of good customer service, I will do what I can for you, but in the end, it is a deal between you and someone else.

If you are a new customer and come in accusing me of shooting your firearm while it was in DROS, you aren't going to get very far. As much as it shouldn't be personal, it is. You are questioning my character and integrity. I will not kiss a customer's rear end when I did nothing wrong and they are being unreasonable. Sorry, the customer is not always right.

Don't get me wrong, I have made plenty of mistakes. A mistake is ordering you the wrong gun on accident, but then offering you the mistake gun for a $1 over cost with zero obligation because I will order you the right gun and give you a big discount. A mistake is thinking you said Glock 17 and you really said 22 and neither of us noticing it until you get it home and then I have to re-DROS you the correct and eating some fees.

Your gun being in a bad condition and my not shooting it is not a mistake on my part. Unless you have absolute proof I shot it (which again, you never will because I do not shoot customer guns. You might as well accuse me of selling full auto machine guns, it didn't happen and never will), you don't have a leg to stand on.

What if Enterprise is telling the truth? What if that gun in sitting there for a month developed that on its own? What if the original seller let one slip through? All of this hassle for a transfer fee? All of this because the gun shop wanted to shoot your gun? Do they even have a range?

Again, this might or might not get settled out. I think what is more important is we all learn from this to help all of us in the future. Inspect your guns, inspect your customer's guns, and keep honest communication open. If you are going to make accusations, you really ought to have better proof.

Good luck.

dascoyne
09-22-2011, 7:52 AM
Despite my never having done business with Entreprise myself I can't help but be influenced, at least a little, by the OP's experience. Regardless, Al Entreprise is in the unfortunate position of having to prove a negative ... that the gun wasn't fired.

Walter Entreprise
09-22-2011, 10:07 AM
Calicojack7

This is Walter and I was just briefed on this. We do have 3 separate security cameras focused on our lockup. They go back months, I'm going to personally review them to see if you weapon was ever handled.

I remember that we talked about single shot exemptions and how it might apply to our new guns. I gave you my business card, please email me so that we can set an appointment so that I can see your pistol.


On a side note.

I want our business to be as professional as possible so I will be looking for professional, courteous sales associates with good interpersonal skills and knowledge of guns. Background check required Please PM if interested.

Walter

coyotebait
09-22-2011, 10:14 AM
:detective:

Knight_Who_Says_Ni
09-22-2011, 10:33 AM
Calicojack7

This is Walter and I was just briefed on this. We do have 3 separate security cameras focused on our lockup. They go back months, I'm going to personally review them to see if you weapon was ever handled.

I remember that we talked about single shot exemptions and how it might apply to our new guns. I gave you my business card, please email me so that we can set an appointment so that I can see your pistol.


On a side note.

I want our business to be as professional as possible so I will be looking for professional, courteous sales associates with good interpersonal skills and knowledge of guns. Background check required Please PM if interested.

Walter


Why don't you call him instead of post on a forum? You obviously have his phone number on a 4473 or DROS somewhere....

SanPedroShooter
09-22-2011, 10:40 AM
Dont you think that after this publicly posted complaint and pretty serious accusation, it would be a good idea to publicly respond?

I think a review of the security footage is a great idea. On a somewhat unrelated note, I just pulled a shotgun barrel out storage and noticed a nasty rust spot on it. I mean this thing will have to be blasted or sanded down and re-blued. The gun was not exposed to direct moisture or anything, but it rusted anyway. Metal rusts. If the gun was handled by the OP or an employee at the time of DROS and then put back in the back box to sit for a month....

Either way, the tapes should clear it up.

1919_4_ME
09-22-2011, 10:45 AM
This is why my FFL doesn't open the boxes until the customer get there. He lets them open it and inspect it then checks the gun in. This saves both parties from any hassles or missing parts, scratches etc.

Rob454
09-22-2011, 11:04 AM
No matter what went wrong or who can be at fault..... I firmly believe the customer should be satisfied through and though. After all both businesses involve customer satisfication based. Why doesn't both gun shop get together and work out a deal between each other???? Why don't they both split the cost of replacing the barrel with a new one instead of allowing everyone to chime in and make each shop look bad. Good business is a happy customer over all. Split the fee and move on.
.
BS the customer is NOT always right. Thats the problem . Boo Hoo I am the customer and I am right you need to wipe my a** and burp me in any transaction I make otherwise I'm gonna cry and post it on a forum and you will see. WHY should the manufacturer be responsible if they had nothing to do with the damage to the item especially if its not a defect but a neglect issue. . You inspected it it and passed your review. After that I have no control over what happens to the item. Same with the FFL. We have NO proof other than the say so of the OP of what happen to the gun. There is no evidence backing up what he is saying. Especially since he has no pictures of a before and after yes I tended to lean towards the consumer more but thats fading fast without actual proof of the alleged damage

IF you feel that a FFL is not on the up and up and you think that they may be shady and shoot your gun etc then put a cable lock through it or disable the gun in some way. I have never had a gun that i purchased come back to me dirty or shot without my permission. Sure there may be the FFL that stretches the issue but I doubt most FFLs want the headache of dealing with a damaged gun while in their possession. I personally have never had a reason to feel that way and take that sort of measures. Hope I never have to either.
If it did happen to me i would bring up the issue right then and there not after I got home. And I would try to resolve it face to face with a manager or owner before I just started posting on a forum

CHS
09-22-2011, 11:09 AM
This is why my FFL doesn't open the boxes until the customer get there. He lets them open it and inspect it then checks the gun in. This saves both parties from any hassles or missing parts, scratches etc.

That's not always possible, or legal. BATFE requires FFL's to enter in firearms to their books in a set amount of time (5 days, I THINK). You can't just ignore the box hoping that the customer will come in in less than the time required by federal requirements to log the firearm.

I mean sure, if the customer calls and says "Please keep it sealed, the tracking number says it will be there on 9/23, so I'll be in on that date in the late afternoon", then that is perfectly reasonable.

I used to have a customer that bought a lot of really high-end precision rifles. A couple times they were shipped to us in Pelican cases with padlocks on them that he had already been sent the key to. But, he was a fantastic customer that would come in within an hour or so of us receiving the firearm and unlock the gun so that he could check it out and let us log it. It wasn't that he didn't trust us, he didn't trust the shipping companies.

But that's an edge case on an already-established customer with approval of the action beforehand.

You can't just do it as a general practice though.

Donny1
09-22-2011, 11:10 AM
I have read this entire thread and the first question I would like an answer to is:

How long after corrosive ammo is fired through a barrel would it take for more than surface rust to develop and then actually turn in to any significant pitting? It would seem to me that would take longer than 6 weeks. I'm definitely no gunsmith but I've had old rifles that have the bluing worn completely off that wouldn't rust that fast.

Pictures would be a plus.

Rhythm of Life
09-22-2011, 11:14 AM
That's not always possible, or legal. BATFE requires FFL's to enter in firearms to their books in a set amount of time (5 days, I THINK). You can't just ignore the box hoping that the customer will come in in less than the time required by federal requirements to log the firearm.

I mean sure, if the customer calls and says "Please keep it sealed, the tracking number says it will be there on 9/23, so I'll be in on that date in the late afternoon", then that is perfectly reasonable.

I used to have a customer that bought a lot of really high-end precision rifles. A couple times they were shipped to us in Pelican cases with padlocks on them that he had already been sent the key to. But, he was a fantastic customer that would come in within an hour or so of us receiving the firearm and unlock the gun so that he could check it out and let us log it. It wasn't that he didn't trust us, he didn't trust the shipping companies.

But that's an edge case on an already-established customer with approval of the action beforehand.

You can't just do it as a general practice though.

What?

You can't be a good businessman and inform your customer when their order arrives? I would expect that to be basic.....

wtf?

CHS
09-22-2011, 11:26 AM
What?

You can't be a good businessman and inform your customer when their order arrives? I would expect that to be basic.....

wtf?

What are you talking about and what does that have to do with the FFL not opening the box until the customer arrives, especially when it's not always legal?

I never said that I never called a customer to let them know when guns arrive. That's standard operating procedure where I worked.

I only said that it's not always possible for the FFL to LEAVE THE GUN IN THE BOX WITHOUT OPENING IT for the customer.

ASIDE FROM THAT:
1.) Customers QUITE REGULARLY just have guns shipped to FFL's from private parties that have absolutely no information with them as to where they came from or who they're supposed to go to. Who would I call in this case?
2.) Customers QUITE REGULARLY order guns and then take days weeks to show up in order to transfer them.

So yes, sometimes the FFL HAS to open the box, HAS to inspect the gun, and HAS to document it.

shark92651
09-22-2011, 11:29 AM
What?

You can't be a good businessman and inform your customer when their order arrives? I would expect that to be basic.....

wtf?

And how is the FFL to know who the order is for if the case is sealed with a padlock? We open every package that comes in so that we can log the firearm and look at the paperwork.

One point was brought up earlier that has me wondering - where would one find corrosive 9mm ammo? Is it common? This hypothesis doesn't seem very likely to me.

Dirtbiker
09-22-2011, 11:29 AM
What would cause a quality chrome lined barrel to rust so severly in 6 weeks? I don't think even corrosive ammo would do it plus where would you find corrosive 9mm ammo anyway? The primer residue is salt and it needs moisture in the air to cause the rust.

Not jumping the Enterprise's defence because they clearly handled wrong but it is strange.

1919_4_ME
09-22-2011, 11:29 AM
That's not always possible, or legal. BATFE requires FFL's to enter in firearms to their books in a set amount of time (5 days, I THINK). You can't just ignore the box hoping that the customer will come in in less than the time required by federal requirements to log the firearm.

I mean sure, if the customer calls and says "Please keep it sealed, the tracking number says it will be there on 9/23, so I'll be in on that date in the late afternoon", then that is perfectly reasonable.

I used to have a customer that bought a lot of really high-end precision rifles. A couple times they were shipped to us in Pelican cases with padlocks on them that he had already been sent the key to. But, he was a fantastic customer that would come in within an hour or so of us receiving the firearm and unlock the gun so that he could check it out and let us log it. It wasn't that he didn't trust us, he didn't trust the shipping companies.

But that's an edge case on an already-established customer with approval of the action beforehand.

You can't just do it as a general practice though.



Yea I always go the same day it arrives so I've always been able to look over the rifle as its checked in.:)

kemasa
09-22-2011, 12:43 PM
I'm kind of disapponted that other vendor/retailers have jumped in and offered their expert opinions on the thread.
...
However, I'm of the opinion that vendor/retailers should not get involved in any way in the dispute between another Calguns Vendor and a forum member, even if their opinion may be correct.

I think that it is reasonable for other vendors/retailers comment on statements which are made which are incorrect. The DROS system has not been down for a month ever. A FFL's access might be revoked for a month due to issues, but then the customer should be given the choice of transferring the firearm elsewhere or filling out the DROS worksheet so that they don't have to come back to start the paperwork. That is something another FFL can comment on.

All people should be free to comment on a thread as well.

The gun was a single shot exemption so I'm not sure if other gun shops in the area wanted to do it. The boss didn't want to it and we spent some time to make a decision.


This is an interesting statement. I am pretty sure that Fort Courage Armory would have done the transfer, as would I. If you don't want to do it, then don't, but don't claim that others might not want to do it as an excuse.


Our fair city only has one employee handling all the licenses, what was supposed to take few days streched into her summer vacation:facepalm:


Then be upfront and honest about it. Don't claim that the DROS system is down, when it is just your access.

I briefed Walter and he will call you tomorrow.

When the local, state, or Federal license expire the Dros will go down. There is an incredible amount of paper work to keep track of.


This is incorrect. The DROS system will not go down, it is only your access. Other FFLs can still submit the DROS, so you are giving a false impression of the situation. While there is a bit of paperwork and while things happen, it is not as you are trying to present it as, which reflects badly on you in my opinion.

This is why my FFL doesn't open the boxes until the customer get there. He lets them open it and inspect it then checks the gun in. This saves both parties from any hassles or missing parts, scratches etc.

The FFL needs to log the firearm into the bound book and there are time limits, so the box needs to be opened unless the customer can come in immediately, which is generally not practical since that would also mean that the FFL has to stop and call the customer and then wait. I open the box and unwrap the firearm the minimum amount needed to get the serial number and other information off of the firearm. When the customer arrives, I ask them to inspect the firearm to make sure that it is what they ordered and in the condition they expected, then it gets wrapped up until the customer comes back to pick it up.

I have had firearms with incorrect serial numbers on the boxes and the paperwork, so it is critical to actually check the firearm.

Res
09-22-2011, 12:43 PM
Would it be legal to put a lock on your firearm when the FFL receives it before the 10 days even starts? If so, I might do that next time I transfer a firearm.

If someone would take a client's firearm and shoot it without permission. What would stop them from bypassing a trigger/cable lock to do so? It's a shame.

Milsurp Collector
09-22-2011, 12:59 PM
Would it be legal to put a lock on your firearm when the FFL receives it before the 10 days even starts? If so, I might do that next time I transfer a firearm.

You could, or...

you could move to one of the majority of states that have no waiting period for firearm purchases. In those states you can take home your firearm the same day the FFL receives it or you purchase it in-store, and you don't have to worry about what is happening to your firearm while it is in the "care" of some gun store employee who thinks your firearm is "cool".

Only criminals, not your paid-for property, should be in "jail".

kemasa
09-22-2011, 1:05 PM
In those states you can take home your firearm the same day the FFL receives it or you purchase it in-store, and you don't have to worry about what is happening to your firearm while it is in the "care" of some gun store employee who thinks your firearm is "cool".

Only criminals, not your paid-for property, should be in "jail".

It is not your property until the paperwork is done even if you have paid for it, but I do agree with the fact that there should not be a waiting period, especially for people who already own firearms. The police can run a check on you in minutes, the same should be true for firearm purchases.

HPGunner
09-22-2011, 1:28 PM
Wow. To think I was actually going to use these guys to do some smith work, but their address had changed from what they had online and I couldn't find where they were located.

The next time I do a transfer I'm going to put it in a locked case and if the FFL has an issue with that I'd put a cable lock on the weapon itself and remove the magazine or bolt (if applicable). Hell, if the upper and lower can be separated, I'd just leave the frame or lower receiver for the 10 day jail time. Not sure if there is any restrictions around that. It's just the frame/receiver that is serial numbered. check that - it's only the frame/receiver that is logged with the DOJ.

Milsurp Collector
09-22-2011, 1:29 PM
The police can run a check on you in minutes, the same should be true for firearm purchases.

Not only should be true, it is true. In most states the background check is completed within minutes.

tenpercentfirearms
09-22-2011, 2:10 PM
The next time I do a transfer I'm going to put it in a locked case and if the FFL has an issue with that I'd put a cable lock on the weapon itself and remove the magazine or bolt (if applicable). Hell, if the upper and lower can be separated, I'd just leave the frame or lower receiver for the 10 day jail time. Not sure if there is any restrictions around that. It's just the frame/receiver that is serial numbered. check that - it's only the frame/receiver that is logged with the DOJ.

That won't save you. Most gun locks can be defeated by simply using the key from a similar lock. I have most of the locks in my shop. I can't wait to shoot your new gun!

Separate the lower rom the upper??? Also laughable. I am just going to put one of my uppers on your lower and shoot 10,000 rounds through it! Sure I have my own lowers, but I enjoy shooting customer lowers that much more! Especially when they don't know I am doing it.

Yes, I am the evil gremlin that fires guns at a gun shop. :TFH:

paul0660
09-22-2011, 2:14 PM
Yes, I am the evil gremlin that fires guns at a gun shop.

It DOES seem that you have spent some time thinking about it. :eek:

dascoyne
09-22-2011, 2:23 PM
Yes, I am the evil gremlin that fires guns at a gun shop. :TFH:http://assets.creativity-online.com/images/work/large/a/l/l/Allstate_Mayhem10.jpg

then you need insurance

Oceanbob
09-22-2011, 2:24 PM
I have a few observations. :)

I think we all can acknowledge that Entreprise did not give correct info on the DROS problem. However, it seems like that really wasn't an issue with the OP anyway.

What I can't believe is the headline:

ATTN: Do Not Do Business with Entreprise Arms (Please Read)

knowing thousands of people will read that headline, the OP choose to
make accusations based on assumptions.

1. Sure, the OP met a Drooling Lethargic Dullard who had a speech issue. Whether the ability to talk like a News Broadcaster or mumble like Beavis and Butthead; certainly claiming the boy is a criminal (from another question he asked) and has a hoard of Corrosive 9MM ammo waiting to shoot thru the OP's HK pistol is a quite a stretch....certainly NO EVIDENCE exists that this happened. Without evidence the OP has made accusations and hence in return has defamed Entreprise Arms via his Libel.

This is actionable. One had better have sufficient proof before libeling a company and their employee's. Especially on an Internet Forum that is exclusively Gun flavored.

2. The OP is upset because after he called the GunSmith a Criminal the GunSmith yelled back and huffed off to the back room.

3. We are assured that the original seller is beyond question and could never have made a mistake with that barrel.

4. People reading this thread join the fray and jump on the bandwagen assuming a dishonest dullard with a criminal conviction, took the HK pistol out of the building and ran several hundred rounds of corrosive 9MM (rare stuff) thru it without cleaning the pistol and somehow snuck the weapon back into the company SAFE without being detected...:eek:

5. The barrel corrodes in a record short time. I really don't think a box of ammo and 4 weeks would do any damage.

Still, we have no evidence. All we have is hearsay and conjecture. Should a company be made to look as terrible as Entreprise Arms on conjecture and subjective opinion..?...I don't know what happened..but so far we have no evidence.

What are Walter's choices..?...What can he say..?...


JMO

Be well, Bob

johncmng
09-22-2011, 2:55 PM
Yes. I want to see picture of the pitting. I don't think Chrome can rust, can it?

Yerman
09-22-2011, 2:55 PM
Hhmmm...good to know. My brother-in-law and I were both going to purchase FAL's from them but not now. Even if they never shot the gun, I won't buy from them simply because of the way the guy treated you in the store which they have admitted to...

Not sure why but I get this feeling that people in this industry think they are above others. Kind of a strange phenomenon I have been noticing...especially with one of the local shops here in my town. There are exceptions but it does seem to be a trend.

MrPlink
09-22-2011, 3:07 PM
Not sure why but I get this feeling that people in this industry think they are above others. Kind of a strange phenomenon I have been noticing...especially with one of the local shops here in my town. There are exceptions but it does seem to be a trend.

Im not very old, but I grew up at gun shows and going to gun stores and I can promise you, it is not a trend, more like the general culture PERIOD.

Bucc
09-22-2011, 3:31 PM
I had my FAL built at Entreprise. No complaints really. The lie about the DROS bothers, though. Will it inhibit my thinking on having a second upper assembled there when the money comes about...... not likely.

Having run an auto shop at the dealer level I have been in in a few disputes like this and can see it from both sides. None of us were there but the OP and Walters employees. Apparently minus one. That's an interesting point. I would be interested to know why an employee who seems to be the center of this just stopped showing up for work. Unfortunately Walter can't nor can his employees come right out and say or he WOULD be open for a lawsuit. That's what sucks about running a business.

Some in this thread have asked if there is corrosive 9mm out there...oh hell yes. It's getting pretty rare by now, however. I bought some 9mm loose in a crate at the Costa Mesa gun show about a year ago and it was Pakistani. That nasty crap was as corrosive as battery acid. Worse than the Romanian 8MM I use.
Wolf amo, in my experience has made a few of my rifles rust as well. I popped a few hundred out of my SU 16 last time I shot it then tossed it back in the safe....... it had a nice coating of rust in the barrel a couple weeks later when I finally cured lazy and took it out to clean.
Don't ever think the cheap foreign ammo isn't corrosive no matter what they say. I've had Wolf that was and Wolf that wasn't.

Will it corrode a chrome barrel to the point of being pitted in a month? Dunno. Doubt it. a regular barrel; maybe.

I view this as a he said, he said thing.
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.


And yeah........ there is definitely a culture of gunstore-itis in some shops. The 'I work in a gun store and you don't, therefore I'm superior' mentality is pretty sharp in some places. I dealt with Matt at Entreprise(don't know if he is there anymore) and he was ok. The guys at OC Armory, Riflegear And On Target have been awesome as had Chris out at Bright Spot. No gunstore-itis in any of those places.

starsnuffer
09-22-2011, 3:33 PM
Gonna say the same thing I tell my kids:

"Lying is wrong. Telling a lie will bring consequences, period".

Looks like some people should have listened to their parents more.

-W

Pryde
09-22-2011, 3:57 PM
So let me get this straight..... the entire premise of this thread is that you discovered rust in your bore and are making the assumption that Entreprise fired corrosive ammo out of your gun because........ some guy said your gun is "cool" and you got a bad feeling about it?


Wow, I'm speechless that anyone is taking you seriously.

HK Dave
09-22-2011, 4:18 PM
These posts are always sad. :(

MasterYong
09-22-2011, 4:26 PM
I don't know if you realize that you are doing a very poor job of representing your firm in a good light. That is not meant to be a personal attack, just an observation.


I agree.

Whoever's in charge (Walter?) needs to reign in how employees represent the business online. I'm not trying to be rude, but as someone that works as an SEM it makes me cringe to read Al Enterprise's posts.

Calicojack7

This is Walter and I was just briefed on this. We do have 3 separate security cameras focused on our lockup. They go back months, I'm going to personally review them to see if you weapon was ever handled.

I remember that we talked about single shot exemptions and how it might apply to our new guns. I gave you my business card, please email me so that we can set an appointment so that I can see your pistol.


On a side note.

I want our business to be as professional as possible so I will be looking for professional, courteous sales associates with good interpersonal skills and knowledge of guns. Background check required Please PM if interested.

Walter

Did you seriously just post publicly, on an Internet forum, the number of security cameras you have pointed at your lockup?

OPSEC, anyone???

ON TOPIC:

I am interested to see pics of the damage as many have asked for. I know macro photos can be a pain, but there are even instructions on this forum of how to do it well.

xm177
09-22-2011, 4:34 PM
Received a phone call personally from Walter. Walter told me that he would take of me. I'll keep you updated on how things pan out. This is definitely a step in the right direction.

Just to clarify, HK MP5 barrels are NOT chrome lined. This barrel was NOT refinished in any way. It was thoroughly inspected, cleaned through ultra sonic, and oiled before shipping to CA. Jeff has guns from the same batch and they all have zero issues with rust or corrosion. Jeff has contacted the buyers to verify and they've all checked out.

Thanks for all the support. Please try to keep this thread on topic and as civil as possible.

shooter5
09-22-2011, 5:57 PM
Bottom line (all accusations a side) They admitted to being less then forthright (or what the rest of us call LYING) to the customer about the DROS being down.. Thats enough for me not to trust them.. Not saying they shot it..

But in the end.. this is a nasty way of learning a valuable lesson.. If BOTH Parties properly inspected the weapon.. we might not be having this discussion..

As far a TENPERCENTFIREARMS posts..

Posts like these are hardly helping and only further reinforce a common thread that a majority of shop's (and employees within) are jags.. You obviosly dont care as you stated multiple times in your posts.. But other store owners DO care and appreciate a good rapport with customers whether they bought the weapon from you or not.. Those are the stores I patronize.. You seem to "patronize" us with comments like these..

That won't save you. Most gun locks can be defeated by simply using the key from a similar lock. I have most of the locks in my shop. I can't wait to shoot your new gun!

Separate the lower rom the upper??? Also laughable. I am just going to put one of my uppers on your lower and shoot 10,000 rounds through it! Sure I have my own lowers, but I enjoy shooting customer lowers that much more! Especially when they don't know I am doing it.

Yes, I am the evil gremlin that fires guns at a gun shop. :TFH:




... It is a transfer. I often do not look at transfers or open the box until the customer gets here. Why? I don't really care much about your transfer. You bought the gun somewhere else and I am just a middle man helping you stay legal.

If you are the type of customer who has drama like this and feel like you need to lock up your gun while it is in a ten day wait, then really your $50 transfer fee I am making doesn't sound that enticing. Hey if you want to lock up your gun with a cable lock during the ten days, I have no problem doing that. It will make you feel better and less likely to slander my name on Calguns, that is cool.

Really what needs to be learned here from everyone is this.

....1) Consumer inspect your transfer gun.

....2)FFLs, inspect your transfer guns. I get in a bad habit of not caring about what condition your gun arrives in, as it isn't my problem (this is not to say I don't care about your gun when it is in my custody, which I do care since you are paying me to take care of it). So for me to avoid these issues of he said she said, if I see something suspect at the beginning, I would be better off reporting it to the consumer immediately.

3)Transfers are not a gun shop's bread and butter. Part of the reason brick and mortar stores don't care about transfers is they are not going to pay the bills with them.
Sorry, the customer is not always right...


Kinda talkin out of both sides of your mouth here..

You would call a customer that wants to eliminate any doubt about the transaction (especially after reading this thread) "anal" after you say you dont care about the transaction because he didnt buy it from you???

Then in the next breath you say the same thing I said in an earlier post, BOTH parties need to inspect the weapon...

Im not saying you guys don't have to deal with a ton of BS and have to constantly answer questions YOU may think are stupid.. but WE DON'T LIKE IT ANYMORE THEN YOU DO!! BUT WE BOTH HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT! If you dont want to do transfers, DON'T..

If a store has piss poor customer service WE are going to let everyone else know.. So they can decide for them before dealing with your store knowing you "really dont care"..

every one can go read the rest of it.. I'm not here to cut you down either but you pretty much just "slandar(d)" your own name on here.

Then this..

This is actionable. One had better have sufficient proof before libeling a company and their employee's. Especially on an Internet Forum that is exclusively Gun flavored.

2. The OP is upset because after he called the GunSmith a Criminal the GunSmith yelled back and huffed off to the back room.

3. We are assured that the original seller is beyond question and could never have made a mistake with that barrel.

4. People reading this thread join the fray and jump on the bandwagen assuming a dishonest dullard with a criminal conviction, took the HK pistol out of the building and ran several hundred rounds of corrosive 9MM (rare stuff) thru it without cleaning the pistol and somehow snuck the weapon back into the company SAFE without being detected...:eek:

What are Walter's choices..?...What can he say..?...


Actionable? your serious? THEY LIED TO HIM FROM THE JUMP.. hows that for action?

(2) sooo.. your now just "assuming" no? Didn't that (part of the story) come from the damage-control post? the same guys that lied to him about the DROS in the first place?

(3) who was assured that "original seller is beyond question"? Thats why the intelligent amongst the discussion are suggesting INSPECT weapons at all stages of a transaction..

(4) If they do have someone there stupid enough to even admit they have a criminal record to a customer.. that says quite a bit about management..

Then.. sounds like the owner put up an AD for some new employees.. If i read his post correctly.. LOL!

Again.. just a nasty way for everyone to learn a lesson..

Al Entreprise
09-22-2011, 6:15 PM
I hate to get into this again, but I think even Calicojack would say that we didn't lie to him about our access to the dros system. We told him our system was down and we would submit it as soon as it was back up. Our access to Dros was down much longer than we expected, but he said he would wait. Walter did have reservations about doing an exemption, but as soon as our access was granted the Dros was submitted.

Al

shooter5
09-22-2011, 6:47 PM
if so.. still a self-indictment of unreliability..

xm177
09-22-2011, 6:57 PM
Again, please try to keep this thread civil. Accusations of being a liar are not necessary. Both Entreprise and Jeff Walters are committed to resolving this situation.

Mail Clerk
09-22-2011, 7:12 PM
Again, please try to keep this thread civil. Accusations of being a liar are not necessary. Both Entreprise and Jeff Walters are committed to resolving this situation.

calicojack7,

You could say it more perfect in this point in time. As I said earlier good business is to make the customer satisfied and both Entreprise and Jeff Walters appear to be doing just that. When your business is customer service oriented keeping things as professional as possible is paramont.

At this point in time it now this thread needs to fade away.

Mail Clerk

tenpercentfirearms
09-22-2011, 8:49 PM
As far a TENPERCENTFIREARMS posts..

Posts like these are hardly helping and only further reinforce a common thread that a majority of shop's (and employees within) are jags.. You obviosly dont care as you stated multiple times in your posts.. But other store owners DO care and appreciate a good rapport with customers whether they bought the weapon from you or not.. Those are the stores I patronize.. You seem to "patronize" us with comments like these..Yeah, I am patronizing people who make baseless claims that gun shops shoot customer guns. Actually it is called satire. I am pointing folly at the notion that gun stores love to shoot customer guns while they are in the ten day jail. It really is a pretty silly notion. Why would I want to shoot your gun? Why would I want to piss you off? It makes zero sense. I want your money not to drive you away.

However, I do enjoy discussing these issues on a discussion board. I could refrain from doing so and just keep my mouth shut because I am scared someone is going to read this in Redding and decide to not use me for their transfer because they were offended by my candor. As you can see, I am not worried about it.

Kinda talkin out of both sides of your mouth here..No. One comment was pure satire.

You would call a customer that wants to eliminate any doubt about the transaction (especially after reading this thread) "anal" after you say you dont care about the transaction because he didnt buy it from you??? Yes. Customers who want to lock up their guns and take pictures and will get upset about any little thing that is slightly out of place are anal. It isn't necessarily a bad thing. Anal customers exist and I spend a lot of time catering to them, especially on AR15s. They want a tight fit, they want the lines to match up, they want all the same manufacture of parts. Anal customers are anal customers. I guess if you want we can call them "particular" if it doesn't hurt your sensibilities so much.

Then in the next breath you say the same thing I said in an earlier post, BOTH parties need to inspect the weapon...Yeah. It is true. I am glad we agree.

Im not saying you guys don't have to deal with a ton of BS and have to constantly answer questions YOU may think are stupid.. but WE DON'T LIKE IT ANYMORE THEN YOU DO!! BUT WE BOTH HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT! If you dont want to do transfers, DON'T.. I don't mind transfers. However if this situation happened to me, I wouldn't be too happy because I know for a fact the customer's gun would not have been fired. The vast majority of customers don't make accusations like this. Most customers don't even lock up their guns. Most transactions run pretty smoothly. So I am not really sure how both of us have to deal with anything. These situations are quite unique.

If a store has piss poor customer service WE are going to let everyone else know.. So they can decide for them before dealing with your store knowing you "really dont care".. Not a problem. Spread the word. I tell my own customers that. If you order it from someone else, I don't care that you have issues with that guy. You order it from me, you will be taken care of. However, I don't always have everything in stock, so do what you have to do and find guns where you can find guns.

every one can go read the rest of it.. I'm not here to cut you down either but you pretty much just "slandar(d)" your own name on here.If you say so. I think people need to know the truth, most dealers don't care about your transfer. Safely storing your firearm for the 10 days is my responsibility and I take that seriously. However, we don't care that it is the wrong gun. We don't care that is shows up in bad shape. We don't care that they didn't clean it properly and it rusts while sitting in its case in our shop. It isn't our business or our concern. If you buy a gun somewhere else and have it transferred in, it isn't our responsibility.

The only reason we do transfers is because we want to offer our regular paying customers a service and take care of them. So I might care about you as a customer and do my best to help you out as far as dealing with a difficult transfer seller, but at the end of the day, it isn't my responsibility.

Now you can think I am slandering my name if you wish or you can see what I am really trying to do here. I am trying to educate the end consumer on how brick and mortar shops view your transfer business. I might be the only guy brave enough to tell you the way it is and that is fine. With this understanding you can have a better position when dealing with a transfer dealer.


I hate to get into this again, but I think even Calicojack would say that we didn't lie to him about our access to the dros system. We told him our system was down and we would submit it as soon as it was back up. Our access to Dros was down much longer than we expected, but he said he would wait. Walter did have reservations about doing an exemption, but as soon as our access was granted the Dros was submitted.

Al
I kind of called this in Post #76. Taking only the OPs word for what is said only is dangerous. Here we have been fixated on "DROS is down" when it is quite possible "our DROS is down" was said.

Again, I hope this all gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

vintagearms
09-22-2011, 8:55 PM
Again, please try to keep this thread civil. Accusations of being a liar are not necessary. Both Entreprise and Jeff Walters are committed to resolving this situation.

I would suggest that in the interest of you getting your issue resolved and avoid dogpiling this vendor that maybe this thread could be temporarily closed and if you do not receive proper resolution, then the thread could be reopened. Just a suggestion.

CHS
09-22-2011, 9:04 PM
I would suggest that in the interest of you getting your issue resolved and avoid dogpiling this vendor that maybe this thread could be temporarily closed and if you do not receive proper resolution, then the thread could be reopened. Just a suggestion.

I fully agree.

Until I or another mod hears from CalicoJack about the resolution, we're just beating a dead horse.