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View Full Version : Noob 6.5 Grendel AR questions before I build


send it_hit
09-19-2011, 4:23 PM
So my reloading equipment is on the way, and it got me thinking of my next rifle. I will be reloading mainly to get the most precision possible out of my bolt action, but I'm realizing this opens up the caliber world if I wanted to build an AR. (5.56 AR's never really got me going... sorry :) ) I had always told myself if I got an AR it wouldn't be in .223/5.56, and since I didn't reload, that put the price of ammo way higher than I would like. But now... not too much of an issue.

My main question is, could I build an AR in something like 6.5 Grendel for precision shooting, and simply buy another upper in something like 6.8SPC for when I want to just sling a ton of lead down range? I want to know if I can plink and precisely target shoot using the same lower, to save cost.

Or, would I just be better off building a plinker and building a precision AR? Only reason I'd rather not do that is money. If I can kill two birds with one stone bullet, that would be awesome! I wouldn't really mind if my plinker lower still has all my "precision" parts (upgraded trigger and whatever else I'd need) in it.

Sorry for the noob questions, I know little of the AR platfrom :cool:

gun toting monkeyboy
09-19-2011, 4:32 PM
Yes, you can swap uppers with no problems. You can have them in different calibers, and your lower will never notice. You can also do precision shooting with a 6.8 and not have to bother with the hassle of finding 6.5 brass at 2-3 times the cost of 6.8 brass. Or if your heart is really set on 6.5, and you want something cheap to plink with, maybe look at a 7.62x39 upper for your AR. That way you can feed it cheap wolf ammo, and still have more knock-down power than the .223. Or you could go with a 5.45x39 upper, and feed it gobs of that cheap Russian import ammo for a fraction of what .223 costs. The possibilities boggle the mind.

-Mb

send it_hit
09-19-2011, 4:34 PM
Thanks. AR-10 is a different story, completely different lower, correct?

gun toting monkeyboy
09-19-2011, 4:40 PM
Thanks. AR-10 is a different story, completely different lower, correct?

Yes. It takes different or larger parts. But it is also set up to take .308 sized cartridges. You can do a lot more longer distance shooting with a .308 or 7-08 than you can with a 6.5 or 6.8.

send it_hit
09-19-2011, 4:55 PM
Yes. It takes different or larger parts. But it is also set up to take .308 sized cartridges. You can do a lot more longer distance shooting with a .308 or 7-08 than you can with a 6.5 or 6.8.

I've been considering the 7-08 but the longest range near me is 200yds max... the frequency I'd be shooting 200+ is so low, I think 6.5 would work for me. I think I would have a bolt rifle build in 7-08 eventually though...

wash
09-19-2011, 5:03 PM
Another ammo combo would be 6.8 SPC with 6*41.

6*41 is a necked down SPC so the magazines are the same, the case capacity is bigger than 6*45 (which is based on .223) and the neck is set back to hold a high B.C. bullet better. It has better velocity, B.C., wind drift and drop than Grendle for better precision while the 6.8 has more velocity and hits harder at short to medium range than Grendle.

I must admit that I've never thought Grendle does what it's intended to do well enough to justify itself (but 6.5*47 interests me much more than .270 Winchester).

send it_hit
09-19-2011, 5:26 PM
Another ammo combo would be 6.8 SPC with 6*41.

6*41 is a necked down SPC so the magazines are the same, the case capacity is bigger than 6*45 (which is based on .223) and the neck is set back to hold a high B.C. bullet better. It has better velocity, B.C., wind drift and drop than Grendle for better precision while the 6.8 has more velocity and hits harder at short to medium range than Grendle.

I must admit that I've never thought Grendle does what it's intended to do well enough to justify itself (but 6.5*47 interests me much more than .270 Winchester).

Wow. that's an obscure round (maybe not, maybe im not very familiar with AR cartridges :p ) how much would brass and stuff be for that round though? would that be worth it price-wise?

Bhobbs
09-19-2011, 5:32 PM
Another ammo combo would be 6.8 SPC with 6*41.

6*41 is a necked down SPC so the magazines are the same, the case capacity is bigger than 6*45 (which is based on .223) and the neck is set back to hold a high B.C. bullet better. It has better velocity, B.C., wind drift and drop than Grendle for better precision while the 6.8 has more velocity and hits harder at short to medium range than Grendle.

I must admit that I've never thought Grendle does what it's intended to do well enough to justify itself (but 6.5*47 interests me much more than .270 Winchester).

He can also check out the 6mm AR Turbo and Turbo 40 which are improved versions of the Grendel case. The Turbo 40 will push 100 grain class bullets at 2800+ fps.

http://6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo_40_Improved.php

send it_hit
09-19-2011, 5:43 PM
He can also check out the 6mm AR Turbo and Turbo 40 which are improved versions of the Grendel case. The Turbo 40 will push 100 grain class bullets at 2800+ fps.

http://6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo_40_Improved.php

I actually like that a lot. Anyone else make uppers for that? And is that interchangable with 6.8spc, i mean, a lower I use for 6.8spc

Dreaded Claymore
09-19-2011, 6:10 PM
I actually like that a lot. Anyone else make uppers for that? And is that interchangable with 6.8spc, i mean, a lower I use for 6.8spc

Correct. A given AR-15 lower will be able to accept any given AR-15 upper. You can have an upper half chambered in .22 LR, one in 5.56mm NATO, one in 6.8mm SPC, and one in .50 Beowulf, and they'll all fit on the same lower half.

RugerNo1
09-19-2011, 6:31 PM
AR-X Enterprises is the only game in town for the 6mmAR cartidge family. It is their design and they make great shooters. If I make a second lower, that 6mm Turbo 40 will be what it will have.

The lowers are the same AR15 style and everything else but the barrel and perhaps bolt are interchangable. Their standard barrel brand is Hart or you can upgrade to a Krieger. It is top tier custom stuff and you really do not pay that much for it considering the performance you get.

scamp62
09-19-2011, 6:50 PM
I have gone with the 6.5 Grendel….AND LOVE IT !! it is so very accurate, and Hornady brass is easy to find ( and not that costly ) and a long range it is the best !!

dw1784
09-19-2011, 6:51 PM
I actually like that a lot. Anyone else make uppers for that? And is that interchangable with 6.8spc, i mean, a lower I use for 6.8spc

white oak and dtech makes necked down 6's off of 6.8:
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/home.php
http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/Wildcat.htm

black hole makes lbc spec barrels that beats AA 6.5G in velocity:
http://www.blackholeweaponry.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=23

or Les Baer for complete 6.5lbc uppers:
http://www.lesbaer.com/223parts.html

alternative to Whitley's 6AR(off of 6.5G):
http://www.accurateandreliablerifle.com/products.html

there are many more but brass becomes an issue:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3768980.0.html

Bhobbs
09-19-2011, 7:22 PM
white oak and dtech makes necked down 6's off of 6.8:
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/home.php
http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/Wildcat.htm

black hole makes lbc spec barrels that beats AA 6.5G in velocity:
http://www.blackholeweaponry.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=23

or Les Baer for complete 6.5lbc uppers:
http://www.lesbaer.com/223parts.html

alternative to Whitley's 6AR(off of 6.5G):
http://www.accurateandreliablerifle.com/products.html

there are many more but brass becomes an issue:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3768980.0.html

That's why I think I would go with 6.5 G based rounds because you can use Lapua brass.

gun toting monkeyboy
09-19-2011, 7:32 PM
I've been considering the 7-08 but the longest range near me is 200yds max... the frequency I'd be shooting 200+ is so low, I think 6.5 would work for me. I think I would have a bolt rifle build in 7-08 eventually though...

If you are going to be shooting at 200 yards or less most of the time, what is the point in getting the Grendel? If you look at the 6.5 and the 6.8, the difference is minute out to 300 yards. 6.8 actually has an advantage with the SPEC II barrels and loads. You are looking at getting a Ferrari to go puttering along in a 35 mph zone. Yeah, it looks cool, but you aren't getting everything out of it that you can. If 200 yards is what you will be shooting at the most, go with the 7.62x39. The ammo costs a fraction of any of the others. And it has more than enough punch at that range. No point in spending money on a Ferrari when a Chevy will work.

Bhobbs
09-19-2011, 7:36 PM
I've been considering the 7-08 but the longest range near me is 200yds max... the frequency I'd be shooting 200+ is so low, I think 6.5 would work for me. I think I would have a bolt rifle build in 7-08 eventually though...

If 200 yards is the most you would be shooting then I would get a .223 and load it with some heavy VLDs. Load them long and single feed it.

killshot44
09-19-2011, 8:22 PM
200yds is short range, 69gr SMKs work fine.

Of all the 6.5G-based wildcats I like the 6ARturbo40....

send it_hit
09-19-2011, 9:21 PM
If 200 yards is the most you would be shooting then I would get a .223 and load it with some heavy VLDs. Load them long and single feed it.

i shoot bolt action 223, heavy grain. i am basically looking for something that gives me an excuse to go to sac valley more often...

Bhobbs
09-19-2011, 10:16 PM
i shoot bolt action 223, heavy grain. i am basically looking for something that gives me an excuse to go to sac valley more often...

Then, honestly 6mm AR would be my choice for a long range AR build that isn't 5.56/.223 Rem. That or a bolt action upper in .338 Lapua but then again you aren't shooting +1K yards all the time.

wash
09-19-2011, 10:22 PM
6*41 uses necked down 6.8 SPC brass which means it uses the same magazines.

The problem with all of the stuff based on the 7.62*39 case is that it needs a constant curve magazine like an AK magazine but the AR platform needs a magazine that is almost straight to fit in the mag well.

The SPC has less case taper so the magazines work better.

I've heard that 6*41 can hit about 2,950 fps with a 95 grain bullet and a 105 grain bullet will fit but I don't know the velocity.

There are faster wildcats but they are more work and I don't know how they feed or what magazines they use.

Lapua brass is great but that's why I want to get an AR10 chambered in 6.5*47 shooting a ~140 grain bullet around 2,950 fps. You get Lapua brass and Magpul LR308 magazines.

Bhobbs
09-20-2011, 7:29 AM
6*41 uses necked down 6.8 SPC brass which means it uses the same magazines.

The problem with all of the stuff based on the 7.62*39 case is that it needs a constant curve magazine like an AK magazine but the AR platform needs a magazine that is almost straight to fit in the mag well.

The SPC has less case taper so the magazines work better.

I've heard that 6*41 can hit about 2,950 fps with a 95 grain bullet and a 105 grain bullet will fit but I don't know the velocity.

There are faster wildcats but they are more work and I don't know how they feed or what magazines they use.

Lapua brass is great but that's why I want to get an AR10 chambered in 6.5*47 shooting a ~140 grain bullet around 2,950 fps. You get Lapua brass and Magpul LR308 magazines.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/Jess10x/BRX.jpg

The 6mm WOA (the 6mm round based off the SPC) is the 4th from the left. You can see how the bullet has to be seated pretty deep in the case eating case capacity. The 6mn AR is the round to it's left and you can see how the bullet can be seated way longer and still function in the AR mag. It is not the Turbo 40 version which has an even greater case capacity.

I got this pic off AR15 and they said the WOA is getting 2,700 FPS with a 107 grain bullet.

RugerNo1
09-20-2011, 7:47 AM
Lapua brass is great but that's why I want to get an AR10 chambered in 6.5*47 shooting a ~140 grain bullet around 2,950 fps. You get Lapua brass and Magpul LR308 magazines.

One reason I would not get a 6.5x47mm in a gas gun is because the action would tear up that very expensive brass, thus shortening the brass life. Additionally, 2950 with the 140 class of bullets would be difficult in a gas gun because the action itself may have a problem with pressure. For me, an autoloader rifle in a 6.5 caliber would be a .260 due to cheaper brass that I would not care about tearing up as much.

I like how you think though. :thumbsup:

Bhobbs
09-20-2011, 9:49 AM
One reason I would not get a 6.5x47mm in a gas gun is because the action would tear up that very expensive brass, thus shortening the brass life. Additionally, 2950 with the 140 class of bullets would be difficult in a gas gun because the action itself may have a problem with pressure. For me, an autoloader rifle in a 6.5 caliber would be a .260 due to cheaper brass that I would not care about tearing up as much.

I like how you think though. :thumbsup:

True, but couldn't you use an adjustable gas block to keep the damage to a minium?

wash
09-20-2011, 10:24 AM
To have optics good enough to exploit the long range capability of 6.5*47, you are going to have to spend probably $800 at the absolute minimum and $1,500+ is more like it. When I go there, I won't be pinching pennies on brass. It will be at least a $3,500 package, probably more like $4,000 so spending a couple hundred extra on brass is just the price of admission.

Bhobbs
09-20-2011, 12:04 PM
To have optics good enough to exploit the long range capability of 6.5*47, you are going to have to spend probably $800 at the absolute minimum and $1,500+ is more like it. When I go there, I won't be pinching pennies on brass. It will be at least a $3,500 package, probably more like $4,000 so spending a couple hundred extra on brass is just the price of admission.

That's a good point.

Either way the cost of brass will be relatively insignificant to the cost of the rig.

send it_hit
09-20-2011, 12:20 PM
That's a good point.

Either way the cost of brass will be relatively insignificant to the cost of the rig.

definitely. if i'm spending that kind of money, i'll be having a custom rifle built from darn near scratch (GAP maybe.). But that's a long way off because I'd need to get a lot better!

RugerNo1
09-20-2011, 1:40 PM
To have optics good enough to exploit the long range capability of 6.5*47, you are going to have to spend probably $800 at the absolute minimum and $1,500+ is more like it. When I go there, I won't be pinching pennies on brass. It will be at least a $3,500 package, probably more like $4,000 so spending a couple hundred extra on brass is just the price of admission.

I agree that you do not need to cheap out on glass, but my $550 Bushnell worked well enough for me to get about 93% of maximun score at a Palma match I attended this past weekend. But, my $1800 Nightforce is replacing it.

Also, you state some very good points, but the costs of consumables is actually far more than that of the fixed price of the rifle itself.

Lets say you shoot competition with your rifle and shoot 8000 rounds and burn up two barrels (these are all off the top of my head estimates so take them for what they are...estimates).

Brass is ~$88-120. (lets say you get 10 reloads, which is a low ball estimate, out of the cases so one box lasts 1000 rounds. So, you will buy 8 boxes of brass.) > ~$704-960
Bullets are ~$17-40 per 100 bullets > x80= ~$1360-3200 for 8000 bullets
Primers are ~$32 per 1000 > x8 = ~$256
My load of 37 grains of Varget needs about 42lbs of powder for 8000 rounds so > 8lbs of Varget x 5 > $139 x5 = 695
Barrels are ~$350 plus gunsmith charges = ~$700 for two barrels, plus smith work

In rifle related consumables alone you range from ~$3803-5811.

Also, that is not considering the costs of: Range and Match Fees, hotel stay charges (if you shoot competitions far away), and travel costs (i.e. food, gas, etc.).

There is a breakdown of your "admission fee". But, in my opinion it is all worth it! :D (yes, I was bored)

Bhobbs
09-20-2011, 3:54 PM
I agree that you do not need to cheap out on glass, but my $550 Bushnell worked well enough for me to get about 93% of maximun score at a Palma match I attended this past weekend. But, my $1800 Nightforce is replacing it.

Also, you state some very good points, but the costs of consumables is actually far more than that of the fixed price of the rifle itself.

Lets say you shoot competition with your rifle and shoot 8000 rounds and burn up two barrels (these are all off the top of my head estimates so take them for what they are...estimates).

Brass is ~$88-120. (lets say you get 10 reloads, which is a low ball estimate, out of the cases so one box lasts 1000 rounds. So, you will buy 8 boxes of brass.) > ~$704-960
Bullets are ~$17-40 per 100 bullets > x80= ~$1360-3200 for 8000 bullets
Primers are ~$32 per 1000 > x8 = ~$256
My load of 37 grains of Varget needs about 42lbs of powder for 8000 rounds so > 8lbs of Varget x 5 > $139 x5 = 695
Barrels are ~$350 plus gunsmith charges = ~$700 for two barrels, plus smith work

In rifle related consumables alone you range from ~$3803-5811.

Also, that is not considering the costs of: Range and Match Fees, hotel stay charges (if you shoot competitions far away), and travel costs (i.e. food, gas, etc.).

There is a breakdown of your "admission fee". But, in my opinion it is all worth it! :D (yes, I was bored)

Wouldn't 8K rounds burn through 3 or 4 barrels chambered for 6.5x47 Lapua?

RugerNo1
09-20-2011, 3:59 PM
I remember someone stating on the CAPRC board that their 6.5 Lapua was at 3500 and doing well, so I based my estimates off of that. It is all determined by what loads and how hard you run your rifle of course. But regardless, the consumables still cost more than the cost of just the rifle.

Bhobbs
09-20-2011, 4:02 PM
I remember someone stating on the CAPRC board that their 6.5 Lapua was at 3500 and doing well, so I based my estimates off of that. It is all determined by what loads and how hard you run your rifle of course. But regardless, the consumables still cost more than the cost of just the rifle.

True but still, buy components for 8K rounds over the course of a few years is not as hard to choke down as buying a $2K scope and a $3K+ rifle.

RugerNo1
09-20-2011, 4:08 PM
Absolutely, no way in hell can I afford to stock up on 8000 rounds. I was merely trying to put the costs of shooting in perspective. You can do that breakdown with any firearm and find the same info. It is an expensive hobby that we all partake in. :D

wash
09-20-2011, 4:20 PM
Well 8,000 rounds is far more than I would shoot in a decade unless I was able to retire with $$$.

Let's say over that decade my brass lasts 1/2 as long as expected, I'll spend another $1,000 on brass. That is not an outrageous expense.

That $550 scope could turn to $800 rather easily if you put it in a Larue, AD, or Bobro quick detach one piece mount.

I would probably want to do that if I stepped up to an S&B scope.

You know when you go that far, it makes sense to go all the way.

RugerNo1
09-20-2011, 4:32 PM
Well 8,000 rounds is far more than I would shoot in a decade unless I was able to retire with $$$.

Let's say over that decade my brass lasts 1/2 as long as expected, I'll spend another $1,000 on brass. That is not an outrageous expense.

That $550 scope could turn to $800 rather easily if you put it in a Larue, AD, or Bobro quick detach one piece mount.

Why bother with a quick detach mount? Unless you plan on putting nice aperature sights on your rifle instead of a scope then you would be wasting money and barrel life, in my opinion.

I would probably want to do that if I stepped up to an S&B scope.

You know when you go that far, it makes sense to go all the way.

That is what she said :p

Comments in bold.

Bhobbs
09-20-2011, 5:00 PM
Absolutely, no way in hell can I afford to stock up on 8000 rounds. I was merely trying to put the costs of shooting in perspective. You can do that breakdown with any firearm and find the same info. It is an expensive hobby that we all partake in. :D

I know. I chose all expensive hobbies. :(

Well 8,000 rounds is far more than I would shoot in a decade unless I was able to retire with $$$.

Let's say over that decade my brass lasts 1/2 as long as expected, I'll spend another $1,000 on brass. That is not an outrageous expense.

That $550 scope could turn to $800 rather easily if you put it in a Larue, AD, or Bobro quick detach one piece mount.

I would probably want to do that if I stepped up to an S&B scope.

You know when you go that far, it makes sense to go all the way.

I wouldn't run a QD mount unless you plan on taking your optic off all the time.

IMO you should dignify a 6.5x47 Lapua rifle with a quality optic. You are building a rifle around a precision cartridge and you don't want to use an optic that will be the weak link in the system.

send it_hit
09-20-2011, 6:21 PM
keep going, im learning lol. thanks for breaking it down btw dane

Bhobbs
09-20-2011, 6:44 PM
If I wanted to squeeze every ounce of potential out of the AR15 chassis and not use a bolt action upper, I would pick one of the 6mm wild cat based off the Grendel case. It offers great muzzle velocity without giving up BC to get the bullet down range. Even with the performance of the round it will still be pretty low recoil.

Sunwolf
10-01-2011, 5:37 PM
You can run 7.62x39 brass through 6.5 Grendel dies for the brass.Works good for plinking rounds.