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Fatstackz
09-18-2011, 10:10 PM
I read alot of posts with people taliking about thier groupings, Mostly being at 25 yards. Some of the claims make me wonder if there aren't some fish stories going on here. Admittedly, my vision isn't as good as it used to be but is still better than most people I know and that target looks awfully tiny at that distance. I go to the range about once a week shooting somewhere between 150-250 rounds on two different hand guns. I hardly ever see anyone even shooting the full distances and most people seem to be shooting at about 20 feet to 30 feet.

I would like to hear thoughts on what is considered good groupings at 7yds, 10yds, and 25 yds. Not target pistols, just average tactical type pistols. Even better would be to know how long you have been shooting.

Thanks!

CK_32
09-18-2011, 10:16 PM
If they are saying at 25 yards id call BS..

I only and I usually see guys shooting at like you said 5,7,10 and sometimes 15 yards..

I usually shoot at about 7 to 15 yards. If im looking for groups usually about 10 because its in the middle and some what close. Only time I ever shoot at 25 is when I buy a tennis ball and try to hit it once out of 15 rounds with friends.

Some people may but like you I hardy EVER see people shooting for groups that far.

zfields
09-18-2011, 10:19 PM
If they are saying at 25 yards id call BS..

I only and I usually see guys shooting at like you said 5,7,10 and sometimes 15 yards..

I usually shoot at about 7 to 15 yards. If im looking for groups usually about 10 because its in the middle and some what close. Only time I ever shoot at 25 is when I buy a tennis ball and try to hit it once out of 15 rounds with friends.

Some people may but like you I hardy EVER see people shooting for groups that far.

I see plenty of people shooting that distance, considering most the time I go to ourdoor ranges and thats all there is. Even at indoor ranges, if you go early AM or off times, you see the old guys in there with 1911s putting down tiny groups at 25.

Personally, my distance vision sucks, I shoot pistol 7-15, or whatever the evil RO set up on the USPSA course that day.

Rifle with irons, hell a 100 yard target is just a smudge mark to me.

darmog
09-18-2011, 10:28 PM
I've only been shooting since last Dec. First pistol was a full size XDM 9mm. I've just recently, maybe a month or two ago, moved on to the compact CZ P0-1 as my choice of main HD/SD/range gun. Here's a link to my thread on my P0-1. In it I post pics of my first range session with the gun with silhoutte targets at 10 and 25 yards. I also posted pics on my 3rd session with targets set at 7, 10, and then 25 yards. Getting better although that very first DA pull still kills me. I sometimes end up 10" from my POA if I'm not paying attention to that very first shot of the day.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=466515&highlight=cz

Red Devil
09-18-2011, 10:44 PM
This... at Twenty-five (25) yards...

Use the closer ranges for your speed and holstered position drills, w/ the same results.

But this is the work (in ~ two (2) seconds from the ready position at 25 yds.) of a tactical pistol.

tacticalcity
09-18-2011, 10:49 PM
For defensive shooting a handsize group (fingers spread wide as you can) is what you want. If it is tighter than that you should speed up. Super tight groupings are excellent for trigger control drills, and at 7 yards I've done clover leaves during 4 Day Courses. But those drills are meant to steady you out when you get wild - and are not how you should train the entire day if your goal is self defense.

This is this weekend at 15 yards with 230grain 45ACP FMJ in my Kimber Custom II 45ACP 1911...It was my first target of the day.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/My%201911s/target_9-17-11.jpg

The week before at the same distance with the same gun...It was my last target of the day.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/My%201911s/9-10-11Target.jpg

I accidentally deleted my 25 yard target from May, but it was about the same with 1 flier.

If it were up to me I would be training closer in and from the holster. But my local range does not allow it. I push my luck as it is shooting controlled pairs and non-standard responses, stepping side to side to simulate moving to cover, after action drills, etc. All of which draw a few stares from the untrained masses. But then they see my targets compared to theirs, and that I am doing it at speed, and they stop looking at me funny. About half the time somebody asks me for help teaching them to shoot or ironing out a glitch they are having. I'm always happy to help.

PanaDP
09-18-2011, 10:57 PM
If I'm shooting well that day, my 15 yard groups are about like a baseball.

Q619
09-18-2011, 10:57 PM
I remember when I was a kid, my dad could shoot a soda can at right arounds 25 yards every single time and print well on paper at that distance as well. He was a freakish shot. Anything that involved aim was just no fun when it came to competing with him....guns and shooting pool. He'd run the table on me more often than not. He's older now, his eyes aren't very good anymore and his hands aren't as steady but he can still shoot pretty accurately out to 15 yards. Enough so to where he could make a soda can dance at 15 yards pulling a shot off every 2-3 seconds. :p admittedly, better than I was with my own gun the last time I took him out. If I hand him a 1911 or a S&W wheelgun he'll still be able to shoot a soda can at 25 yards maybe 4 out of 10 times :D I don't know how he does it......he can barely read the giant HIGHWAY SIGNS!

So there ARE people who can group pretty damn well at that distance, though I believe there's probably a little keyboard embellishment sometimes.

ME? I'm dinner plate accurate at best out a 25 yards. I sincerely doubt that can hold a match to many shooters out there but I'm pretty much aiming at a blur at that range so that's good enough for me :p. I usually shoot at around 10 yards, sometimes closer, sometimes out to 15. Not usually beyond that.

CK_32
09-18-2011, 11:00 PM
If I'm shooting well that day, my 15 yard groups are about like a baseball.

Then I shoot about as good as you my friend. And thats on a great day for me :D

PanaDP
09-18-2011, 11:03 PM
Then I shoot about as good as you my friend. And thats on a great day for me :D


Notice my included caveat. I don't always shoot well.:facepalm:

Massan
09-18-2011, 11:20 PM
I'm a little dubious about some of these claims also, specially the ones where their putting 2" groups with offhand at 25 yards. Either they have the steadiest hand ever or their using a rest.

Jwind
09-18-2011, 11:58 PM
If I'm at an indoor range, 10rds at 10 yards as a warm up, then I move onto 15yds for remainder of the range time. I usually save about 15rds for 25yds at the end but I don't think you can call em groups lol.

DCF
09-19-2011, 12:10 AM
If you call 12" by 12" inches a group then yes, I do have a group at 25 yards. I do pretty good up to 15 yards. I can shoot a baseball size grouping at 15 yd with a CZ SP-01.

9mmepiphany
09-19-2011, 8:59 AM
I would like to hear thoughts on what is considered good groupings at 7yds, 10yds, and 25 yds. Not target pistols, just average tactical type pistols. Even better would be to know how long you have been shooting.

7 yards = < 2" - shots should basically fall on top of each other
10 yards = < 3" - clustered onto a 2"x3" Post-It note
25 yards = < 6" - into the flat section of an 8" paper plate. I'm still working on this, the guy who taught me can shoot 2" at this range and never more than 4"

Starting at 25 yard is self defeating, you need to start inside 7 yards and move outward as shoot better. A good evaluation tool is to shoot at a series of 1" squares on a sheet of paper...one shot at each square. It will give you an idea of the kind of sight or technique displacement you are experiencing between shots.

Two examples:
1. New shooter, who's husband was wise enough not to teach her himself, with her new Glock G19. In door range with horrible lighting (The Gun Room). Within about a hour and a half and 20 rounds, she was able to fire (1 sec between shots) five shots into a 2" group at 5-7 yards.

2. Relatively new shooter, started shooting IDPA, good accuracy, but wanted to learn to shoot faster. S&W M&P9 with Apex Tactical action parts. Outdoors in good light (SacValley). Shooting at 5-7 yards she was shooting about a shot every 30 seconds into about 4" (IDPA center is 8"). Recent graduate of Front Sight she was shooting from a Modified Weaver.

A change in her stance and a tweaking of her grip improved both accuracy and speed. 2 hours later, firing as fast as she could see her aligned sights on target (4-5 shots per second) resulted in a 1.5" group. She actually called a shot out to the left (which means she was actually seeing her sights for each shot)...which is what opened it up from the 1" group she had going (which means she could have been shooting a lot faster)

Folks often doubt things because they can't do them, it is many times just a matter of being shown how.

watsonville
09-19-2011, 9:13 AM
I shoot 6" groups at 25yds On center mass with sihlouette targets an 3" groups at 7yds with 357. Loads

Nippy
09-19-2011, 9:13 AM
Right now I know of two shooting schools TigerSwan(Former Delta instructors), Defoor Tactical (Former DevGru instructor) that are teaching shooting @ 25 yards on a NRA B-16 target to flush out flaws in your fundamentals.

I think 10/10 on black on a NRA B-16 target is the minimum you are shooting for. So about 6" at 25 yards is the bare minimum for tactical shooting. Time is unlimited I believe.

gorenut
09-19-2011, 9:19 AM
I've only really shot at indoor ranges unfortunately, but I place most my shots within those 3" Shoot N See targets.

Also, ditto on old dudes with 1911s. I met a guy who was shooting holes within holes with his 1911. He was shooting some target ammo that he bought in a mass bulk at a gun show a while back.

JTROKS
09-19-2011, 9:25 AM
I don't consider this a very tight group, but I honestly shot this at the USI's 25 yard line in Concord standing, isosceles stance taking my time for the sights to settle. If you don't believe me you're not that far and maybe we can shoot one of these days.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh257/joshuatroy/DSC05195.jpg

I probably won't be able to do this with my Glock 23, but with the tweaked Glock 35 it may be doable.

well206
09-19-2011, 9:30 AM
I have seen a few people say their groups were 2" groups when their shots were 2 inches apart from each other, and the grouping looked more like 5".

May be differences in what people think groupings are.

Fatstackz
09-19-2011, 9:30 AM
Folks often doubt things because they can't do them, it is many times just a matter of being shown how.

Not that I doubt it can be done. I Just don't personally see as much of it as I hear about. More than that though, I ask because I am also trying to guage my progress.

Thanks to you all for your input. I will post mine as soon as I can get them uploaded.

NapaCountyShooter
09-19-2011, 9:39 AM
90% of people you see at the ranges aren't even trying for accuracy. Most people I see are spraying and praying because it's "cooler".

Also, the ammo people use is another consideration. If you're just shooting with cheap bulk ammo or gun show reloads, you can expect to have larger groups than if you're using match ammo or reloads that you've found your gun to like.

Red Devil
09-19-2011, 9:39 AM
This is not IPSC or Bulls-eye target practice... it's Goblin-stoppin'.

- Center mass (upper chest) is ~ an Eight (8") inch target.

- The "T" box (nasal cavity) is ~ a Four (4") target.

The range at which you can put Two (2) in the first, and then One (1) in the second, ...in ~ Two (2) seconds from the ready position, ...is your tactical pistol range.

Start at Seven (7) yards if need be. But work your way out to 25 yards. This drill only gets easier at closer ranges once you have mastered it at 25 yards.

Practice Three (3) shot groups... "One-Thou-Bang!-Bang!-One Thou-sand-Bang!"...

...and Practice on silhouette targets.

bombadillo
09-19-2011, 9:51 AM
I shoot at 25 yards plenty because our pistol range on our nearest outdoor range is set at 7 yards and 25 yards. Its more of a rifle sight-in range, but it works pretty well for pistols. I've found white paper with black dots every 6-10 inches work really well for targets there. I can hardly spot my own 22 shells at that range so I bring a little 8x pair of binoculars and it works really well. Or my 7x rangefinder will do the same at that range. Either way, I'm not popping off rounds at that range but it helps when I slow fire a handful of mags and get trigger control down. If I can get a 6" group at 25 yards, I can usually do half or less at 15 so it works out well.

redcliff
09-19-2011, 10:23 AM
When I was young with good eye sight I could shoot 1.5" center to center off-hand at 21 yards as that was part of a competition we shot and I still have the trophies. For tie-breakers we had to take down a 1.5" round steel target at up to 31 yards. If we tied there we shot our handguns upside down.

Now days I'm very happy when I do that at 12 yards which is my typical practice distance unless I'm working on speed shooting or I'm feeling lazy and just want to shoot at 7 or 10 yards at the indoor range. I'm by no means a great shot but I still shoot perfect qualifying scores for my ccw renewal.

BamBam-31
09-19-2011, 10:37 AM
1" groups at 7 yds., 4" groups at 25 yds. on my good days with my good guns. last time i shot at a tennis ball at 25 yds., i got 11 out of twelve hits. darn thing wouldnt stop swinging. this is all two handed standing unsupported.

viet4lifeOC
09-19-2011, 10:51 AM
So grouping is measuring the center of the two farthest shots?

Fatstackz
09-19-2011, 10:52 AM
I mostly work 25ft to the 10 yd line for now. This was about three weeks ago.
Top target with a G21sf factory sights and Federal .45ACP FMJ slow fire 10 rounds.
Bottom target Gen 2 G23 factory sights with Federal .40S&W FMJ slow fire 10 rounds.
http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae144/bigshotsphotos/Targets/45over4010yd.jpg

I found that the rear sight was off on the G21sf. It was centered on the frame, but always shot left no matter who shot it. In order for it to line up with the POI it required about an .040- .050 move to the right! The rear sight is actually on the radius of the slide. I ended up installing Tru-Glows on both and did the adjustments. Still about .040 off, It looks like its probably tolerance build in the locking mechanism.

This was with the Tru-Glows installed and corrected. on the G21sf at 10yds, Ammo was some reloaded freebies from a friend.
http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae144/bigshotsphotos/Targets/4510y.jpg

Moving out to the 25 yd for me is much tougher, with a slight astigmatism in my dominant eye, the target was mostly obscured by front sight making it hard to repeat an accurate picture/placement. The Truglows seemed to help with the smaller dots but still not great. I never could get used to shooting with my glasses on since the perscription lenses give me the feeling that everthing in my periphial vision is moving. So, I installed a lasermax on the G21sf to help me out with the longer shots. So far I like the results. It is also helping me with my trigger pulls. I will throw up pics later this week.

Fatstackz
09-19-2011, 10:53 AM
I don't consider this a very tight group, but I honestly shot this at the USI's 25 yard line in Concord standing, isosceles stance taking my time for the sights to settle. If you don't believe me you're not that far and maybe we can shoot one of these days.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh257/joshuatroy/DSC05195.jpg

I probably won't be able to do this with my Glock 23, but with the tweaked Glock 35 it may be doable.

That is impressive. Nice work!

CK_32
09-19-2011, 10:57 AM
Folks often doubt things because they can't do them, it is many times just a matter of being shown how.

People also often make sh*t up too because they cant do them and others can... :rolleyes:

That is why I doubt things. I know some people can. But I also know a lot of people cant but say they can.

Buddhabelly
09-19-2011, 11:04 AM
Sunnyvale Rod and Gun Club pistol range starts at 25 yards. Go up from there.

Stalls #12 to 18, most of the time there'll be 2 or 3 members shooting 1 ragged group.

Come join us.

M. D. Van Norman
09-19-2011, 11:22 AM
7 yards = < 2" - shots should basically fall on top of each other
10 yards = < 3" - clustered onto a 2"x3" Post-It note
25 yards = < 6" - into the flat section of an 8" paper plate.

I’m about on par with 9mmepiphany these days. When I started shooting about 10 years ago, it was a challenge just to stay in the black at 21 feet. Now, I can generally keep my shots in the black at 25 yards.

I still don’t practice enough, and I have my good days and bad days. I consider myself a moderately proficient handgun shooter. I’m rarely the best one at the firing line, but I’m usually better than the average.

http://dancinggiant.com/images/firearms/m1927-83800-20110724-53.jpg

Here is my best 10-yard group from a fairly recent trip to the range. It was an off day for me, so this represents what I can do when the conditions are less than ideal.

Matt P
09-19-2011, 11:31 AM
This drill for you more developed shooters will certainly help you define where you need to work on.

I shot it for my 5th time this last Sunday with a 1911 .22 dedicated conversion and scored 590.
Score it after each run ideally, or after course of fire with supported, shooting hand only, support hand/kneeling, and finally prone.
Better to tape your hits, or mark them. I tape the holes that have multiples hits through them.
I am now using different colors in sharpies to mark my hits. This helps me identify which impacts are from which hand or support.
Since I am a moron when it at least comes to math, I use a calculator.

Humbler (700 Point Aggregate)

designed for SFOD-Delta
popularized by Larry Vickers

Range: 25yd
Target: NRA B-8
Start position: varies
Rounds fired: 70

The Humbler is the nickname for what is otherwise known as the 700 Point Aggregate. As of this writing, no one has ever claimed a perfect 700 on the drill.

The drill uses NRA B-8 bullseye targets at a range of 25 yards. A fresh target is used for each string to minimize scoring errors. Rounds impacting outside the marked scoring zones are zero points.
•Stage 1: Slow Fire ◦10 rounds
◦freestyle
◦time limit: ten minutes

•Stage 2: Timed Fire from the holster ◦5 rounds
◦freestyle from the holster
◦time limit: 20 seconds
◦repeat a second time for total of 10 rounds fired

•Stage 3: Rapid Fire from the holster ◦5 rounds
◦freestyle from the holster
◦time limit: 10 seconds
◦repeat a second time for total of 10 rounds fired

•Stage 4: SHO Slow Fire ◦5 rounds
◦strong hand only
◦time limit: five minutes

•Stage 5: SHO Timed Fire from the holster ◦5 rounds
◦strong hand only from the holster
◦time limit: 20 seconds

•Stage 6: SHO Rapid Fire from the holster ◦5 rounds
◦strong hand only from the holster
◦time limit: 10 seconds

•Stage 7: WHO Slow Fire ◦5 rounds
◦weak hand only
◦time limit: five minutes

•Stage 8: Kneeling Slow Fire ◦5 rounds
◦kneeling freestyle
◦time limit: five minutes

•Stage 9: Kneeling Timed Fire from the holster ◦5 rounds
◦begin standing, draw and kneel at buzzer
◦time limit: 20 seconds

•Stage 10: Prone Slow Fire ◦5 rounds
◦prone freestyle
◦time limit: five minutes

•Stage 11: Prone Timed Fire from the holster ◦5 rounds
◦begin standing, draw and go prone at buzzer
◦time limit: 20 seconds


As of this writing, no one has ever claimed a perfect 700 on the drill.

tacticalcity
09-19-2011, 11:33 AM
90% of people you see at the ranges aren't even trying for accuracy. Most people I see are spraying and praying because it's "cooler".

Also, the ammo people use is another consideration. If you're just shooting with cheap bulk ammo or gun show reloads, you can expect to have larger groups than if you're using match ammo or reloads that you've found your gun to like.

Aside from my warm up drills, and to calm myself down if I get wild, I am NOT trying for "accuracy". I am trying for the right balance of speed and accuracy. I am not spraying. I am shooting controlled pairs, failure to stop drills and non-standard responses because in real life that is what is called for in self defense. My goal is not to make a pretty target, but to get in some good training that just might save my bacon.

It is all well and good to make it all about accuracy on a range. It's fun enough, and it gives you a nice pretty target to hang on the wall. It impresses the noobs. It gets you warmed up. But if your goal is to prepare yourself for self defense, then it is not hardly enough. It's just the starting point.

So I would not be so hasty to snub your nose at those shooters not 100% absorbed with accuracy. Some of them might actually know what they are doing.

Too much focus on your grouping and supreme accuracy misses the point all together...unless of course we are talking about a trigger control drill. Just one of many drills included in a training regimen. In which case, make it about doing the fundamentals 100% right...go as slow as you can on the trigger pull...and let the accuracy be your guide to know how well you are doing. 3, 7, 10 yards is the proper distance for such drills if your range will allow it. Pic a different spot on the target for each 3-5 round group. Your goal should be a clover leaf for each. Once you have yourself nice and calm and settled down, move onto another drill. Feel free to swap out the target if you want something for the wall.

If when doing trigger control drills you are still a little wild, feel free to go dry. It is a great way to diagnose what you are doing wrong and correct it. Just because you are at a live fire range does not mean you can't run dry for a while to work out a hickup. When I first started shooting this seemed like a really strange concept to me. Unloading your gun and doing dry fire drills at a shooting range. But it works. You will see exactly how and where you are flinching in anticipation of the recoil and you can stop yourself from doing it.

Mixing in dummy rounds with your magazine will also help you diagnose flinching/control problems. Load up all your magazines with 2 or 3 dummy rounds in different places and then mix up your magazines so you won't know when to expect them vs. a live round. Pay attention to your front sight. If when you get to that dummie round your sight moves, you're anticipating the recoil and you need to stop yourself from doing that. So keep doing this drill or go completely dry for a while until you iron yourself out.

Voo
09-19-2011, 1:34 PM
I use to not believe in the 1 or 2 inch groups at 25 yards.. I mean.. geezus.. its' hard to get that at 7 yds.. But once I saw it firsthand, it changed my whole perspective on what could be done with a quality firearm and good ammo..

For me, I'm pretty happy with 1 inch groups at 7 yards.. At 25 yards out, I'm typically within the 5-7 inch range..

As for shooting at speed, you really need to start with accuracy. If the best you can do is a 6 inch group at 10 yards, this group size will simply open up when you start reducing the time between shots. It really is a case of learning to walk before you run. It's just that pulling the trigger quickly is much easier than building small groups... I'll definitely agree that not everything should be for accuracy.. But you need to have it before moving to anything else.

GuillermoAntonio
09-19-2011, 1:34 PM
I was thinking of asking the same question recently. Its always good to know how fair is your shooting.

My last trip to the range I was very happy as I could definitely see my improvement, this was the first time I was able to constantly shoot 10 rds of 9mm trough my CZ-SP01 from 7yrds (21ft) and group them all on top of each other without flyers. I was using a 2" shoot n c type of sticker. The 21ft are perfectly measured as the range I shoot at (DGM) in Santee has the fancy type lane carriers that have a digital display etc.
I am barely moving into the 10 yds, the last few times I used 3" shoot n c's and I was inside of it for about 6 rds with the other rounds a few inches outside.
Gotta work on that.
I have been shooting about once or twice a week for the last 6 months, since I bought my first pistol.
Before that I would shoot rentals at the range, once in a blue moon.

BamBam-31
09-19-2011, 1:37 PM
NM.

GuillermoAntonio
09-19-2011, 1:52 PM
7 yards = < 2" - shots should basically fall on top of each other
10 yards = < 3" - clustered onto a 2"x3" Post-It note
25 yards = < 6" - into the flat section of an 8" paper plate. I'm still working on this, the guy who taught me can shoot 2" at this range and never more than 4"

Great point of reference.
i will try to make this good :)


You'd best learn what a press check is before you go rolling your eyes at someone like 9mmepiphany, son. When he types, your best bet is to take notes. :rolleyes:

Not really my business but I believe CK_32 was just trying to ADD to what ephiphany said, I dont think he was challenging his words in any way.
The rolleyes was not directed at ephiphany IMHO.

Red Devil
09-19-2011, 2:04 PM
I start w/ a clean silhouette and one full clip (13 rounds) w/ One (1) random dummy round.

This allows for Four (4) - Three (3)-shot Two (2) second drills in rapid succession plus one malfunction/TRS drill somewhere along the way.

Start at the ready, and return to the ready for ~ Two (2) seconds between drills.

That's the only target I give a RA about b/c it's the only target that matters.

Depending on that performance, a new target and anywhere from 1/2-to-the-whole Fifty (50) round box is used for improvements.


Then, it's on to the .22 Mk. II Target pistol and little-bitty groups.


The Test comes first... as it does in Life.

ZX-10R
09-19-2011, 4:12 PM
I can hit steel plates at 50yrds 3/5 with my Colt 1911 XSE. I can't group it under 4 inches with 5 rounds groups but hey that is enough for my needs.

Darklyte27
09-19-2011, 4:15 PM
Welcome to calguns, I made a thread just for this topic

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=390201

CK_32
09-19-2011, 4:44 PM
You'd best learn what a press check is before you go rolling your eyes at someone like 9mmepiphany, son. When he types, your best bet is to take notes. :rolleyes:

:confused:

I think you read that wrong....

NapaCountyShooter
09-19-2011, 4:46 PM
Aside from my warm up drills, and to calm myself down if I get wild, I am NOT trying for "accuracy". I am trying for the right balance of speed and accuracy. I am not spraying. I am shooting controlled pairs, failure to stop drills and non-standard responses because in real life that is what is called for in self defense. My goal is not to make a pretty target, but to get in some good training that just might save my bacon.

It is all well and good to make it all about accuracy on a range. It's fun enough, and it gives you a nice pretty target to hang on the wall. It impresses the noobs. It gets you warmed up. But if your goal is to prepare yourself for self defense, then it is not hardly enough. It's just the starting point.

So I would not be so hasty to snub your nose at those shooters not 100% absorbed with accuracy. Some of them might actually know what they are doing.

Too much focus on your grouping and supreme accuracy misses the point all together...unless of course we are talking about a trigger control drill. Just one of many drills included in a training regimen. In which case, make it about doing the fundamentals 100% right...go as slow as you can on the trigger pull...and let the accuracy be your guide to know how well you are doing. 3, 7, 10 yards is the proper distance for such drills if your range will allow it. Pic a different spot on the target for each 3-5 round group. Your goal should be a clover leaf for each. Once you have yourself nice and calm and settled down, move onto another drill. Feel free to swap out the target if you want something for the wall.

If when doing trigger control drills you are still a little wild, feel free to go dry. It is a great way to diagnose what you are doing wrong and correct it. Just because you are at a live fire range does not mean you can't run dry for a while to work out a hickup. When I first started shooting this seemed like a really strange concept to me. Unloading your gun and doing dry fire drills at a shooting range. But it works. You will see exactly how and where you are flinching in anticipation of the recoil and you can stop yourself from doing it.

Mixing in dummy rounds with your magazine will also help you diagnose flinching/control problems. Load up all your magazines with 2 or 3 dummy rounds in different places and then mix up your magazines so you won't know when to expect them vs. a live round. Pay attention to your front sight. If when you get to that dummie round your sight moves, you're anticipating the recoil and you need to stop yourself from doing that. So keep doing this drill or go completely dry for a while until you iron yourself out.

Not talking bad on people that do more tactical training with a purpose. Talking about the people who rent guns just to hear them go bang and act like little teenagers with their friends. I myself need to practice with more of a purpose like yourself.

sammy
09-19-2011, 5:57 PM
This is one of my best groups shot at 15 yards 8 rounds freehand. Keep in mind, I shoot weekly and when I go to the range try to improve every time I go. When I started shooting it was embarrassing, rounds all over the place. Selling guns that I thought were inaccurate. Turns out it was me the whole time.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x183/carcrazysammy/P1010186.jpg

BamBam-31
09-19-2011, 6:19 PM
:confused:

I think you read that wrong....

If so, my bad. Will edit.

tacticalcity
09-19-2011, 7:08 PM
This is one of my best groups shot at 15 yards 8 rounds freehand. Keep in mind, I shoot weekly and when I go to the range try to improve every time I go. When I started shooting it was embarrassing, rounds all over the place. Selling guns that I thought were inaccurate. Turns out it was me the whole time.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x183/carcrazysammy/P1010186.jpg

Very nice Thunder Ranch 1911.

sammy
09-19-2011, 7:32 PM
Very nice Thunder Ranch 1911.

Thanks!! That gun taught me how to shoot. It is not as pretty in person but it does shoot! Aside from a new firing and springs it has never had a parts failure in 15,000+ rounds. Baer's blueing is kind of soft but I take it to the range every time and it shows. All stock (aside from standard grips) I can't think of anything I would change. That is one gun I will never sell.

bombadillo
09-19-2011, 9:14 PM
I have a custom Colt like that. Its been through I don't know how many rounds but it always shoots better than I can no matter what I feed it. I really want to do some load development and find something that I can make it super accurate with but that will be sometime down the road. Also one of those guns I'd never sell till my little girl needed a kidney, and even then I'd give up a testacle for it first.

himurax13
09-20-2011, 9:58 AM
When I shoot groups, I don't bother trying to make groups at 25 yards. I can't even see my hits from that range. I shoot groups from 7 to 10 yards away and I try to hit a 3" shoot and see. Usually I can group 10 shots within half of that 3" circle or less. With a 22kit, my shot groups are about half of that. At longer ranges, I just want to know approximately where my shots will land.

If I have time to practice, I prefer to work on splits/transitions. I feel that is far more important than hitting th bullseye for the games I play.

huckberry668
09-20-2011, 11:05 AM
I always shoot at 8.5"x11" paper at 25 yards offhand/benchrest unless i'm running self defense or speed shooting drills. Come out to Insight Shooting Range in Artisia, CA and we'll shoot together.

Arondos
09-20-2011, 11:27 AM
I'm of the if my hand can cover the group it is good enough mindset.

Had fun two weeks ago. Took my son to the range. Using 25 yard slow fire targets. First magazine he was at 10 yards and with a P22 only kept 7 on paper. By the end of the day with some coaching from Dad he had one big ragged hole from 25 rounds through my 1911.

I told him "It doesn't matter if you shoot fast if you don't hit anything."

Now if I can just get him to remember you can't talk with your hands when holding a pistol.

meaty-btz
09-20-2011, 12:06 PM
Teach him the chest position for his arms. Arms held out are used to emote. Arms held crossed are not. While holding the handgun in a safe position and muzzle direction pull hands up to the chest and keep them there. You are less likely to emote from this position and it is therefor safer. If there is no safe direction then the firearm should be put down before conversing.

orangeusa
09-20-2011, 1:36 PM
I like this thread a lot. My 92FS shooting is NOTHING as accurate as my 686.
Standing with 686, no external support I can shoot a sub 2" group at 15 yards. 6 rounds - a couple touching. Wich would be 6" with 92FS.. :) Most of 92FS shooting is a vertical line - azimuth is fine, but elevation variance like in the above pics....

But with my eyesight - > 15 yards, deteriorates like heck.

QUESTION:
Are some of these free-standing pistol claims with a sight/or scope?

That I might believe, with a revolver.

I dunno, most guys I shoot with who practice are definitely shooting kill shots, and then kick themselves for a flyer that goes 2" lower.

Shooting is a heck of a lot easier than GOLF! (More serious, but easier)...

.

mif_slim
09-20-2011, 1:54 PM
I think its possible for tight groups at 25 yards. I've done it with my tune loads in my XD40, it was easy and I dont think its hard. Its only hard because those people who never tried it think its super hard because they never step out of their comfort zone. I've heard people say 22lr cant hit worth crap pass 100 yards, I shoot 300 yards with 22lr. I heard people say you cant hit worth crap with a 5.56 at 1000 yards, I shoot 5.56 at 1000 yards. People say you cant shoot archery past 40 yards, I shoot 100 yards. You can say I like to challenge myself and push my limits to the max.

Anyways, what Im saying is its do-able and at the outdoor range I go to, about half of the guys I see shoot pistol at 25 yards. Mostly ol'men who sits at the range and just joke all day. Spend 4-5 hours at the range and only firing 10 rounds thru out that time. lol.

JTROKS
09-20-2011, 3:51 PM
I think its possible for tight groups at 25 yards. I've done it with my tuned loads in my XD40, it was easy and I dont think its hard.

That's it! The gun and load must be able to print small groups, not just the nut behind the trigger. I had a Taurus 92 that didn't shoot wort for $#!+ past 15 yards until I tried a little oversized cast bullets then it shot 3" groups at 25 yards. Quite a difference from 8" down to that. Sometimes changing one component will throw your accuracy load out of wack. So if you try to assemble some accurate loads with range pick up brass good luck to you.

eaglemike
09-20-2011, 4:01 PM
Lots of good stuff in this thread. Complete focus on the front sight, including follow through, helped me a lot. This is pertaining to shooting small groups - SD stuff requires a little different focus at times. During the 4 day defensive handgun class at Front Sight, the consistent practice made quite a difference. I was able to shoot DG without much agony - except for leaving a little skin and blood on the rear sight. Didn't notice at the time, so I know I was focused.

Some people still have to blame the gun. Sometimes it is, but usually it's the person behind the trigger.

HK35
09-20-2011, 4:27 PM
I hardly ever see anyone even shooting the full distances and most people seem to be shooting at about 20 feet to 30 feet.

I would like to hear thoughts on what is considered good groupings at 7yds, 10yds, and 25 yds. Not target pistols, just average tactical type pistols. Even better would be to know how long you have been shooting.

Thanks!

I've been shooting for less than a year (11 months). Here's my cluster at 35 feet, standing, 10 rounds of 9mm (Federal from Walmart) from an HK P200SK (slow fire, about one shot every 2 seconds, focused on front sight and keeping the same sight picture every shot, fire at the end of breathing cycle and trigger control):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=115279&stc=1&d=1316561122

I rarely shoot past 35 feet with a pistol. I use my rifle for farther shots.

JTROKS
09-20-2011, 5:16 PM
That's excellent shooting! I shot my 40-9 converted Glock 35 last weekend and my groups weren't that tight at the static 10 yard line. You should be able to keep all your shots in the 10 ring at 25 yards - most of them in the X.


I've been shooting for less than a year (11 months). Here's my cluster at 35 feet, standing, 10 rounds of 9mm (Federal from Walmart) from an HK P200SK (slow fire, about one shot every 2 seconds, focused on front sight and keeping the same sight picture every shot, fire at the end of breathing cycle and trigger control):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=115279&stc=1&d=1316561122

I rarely shoot past 35 feet with a pistol. I use my rifle for farther shots.

9mmepiphany
09-20-2011, 6:28 PM
QUESTION:
Are some of these free-standing pistol claims with a sight/or scope?

That I might believe, with a revolver.
It really doesn't make a lot of difference, if you know how to align your sights correctly on a target...it is a bit easier as you only have to focus on the cross hairs in the scope, but you still have to be able to press the trigger correctly without disturbing the sights.

It is much like caliber doesn't make any difference to a single shot as the recoil occurs after the shot is away

9mmepiphany
09-20-2011, 6:47 PM
If so, my bad. Will edit.
Thanks for the kind words anyway

I'm going to be down in SoCal Oct 1&2, checking on the college kid, if you want to say hi. I still owe Dom a shooting lesson too

HK35
09-21-2011, 8:54 AM
That's excellent shooting! I shot my 40-9 converted Glock 35 last weekend and my groups weren't that tight at the static 10 yard line. You should be able to keep all your shots in the 10 ring at 25 yards - most of them in the X.

Thanks JT! You're probably right but the issue, for me, with farther distances is it's hard to keep a consistent sight picture. I recon a red dot sight would help a lot with longer range shooting precision & accuracy since I can focus on the target instead of front sight.

BamBam-31
09-21-2011, 12:16 PM
Thanks for the kind words anyway

I'm going to be down in SoCal Oct 1&2, checking on the college kid, if you want to say hi. I still owe Dom a shooting lesson too

Cool deal. Where and when are you gonna go shooting w/ Dom? I'll PM the guys to see if they're interested. :)

9mmepiphany
09-21-2011, 12:42 PM
I sent her a message on Facebook, She's not sure what her schedule looks like yet.

Driving in from Prescott AZ Saturday morning