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diginit
09-20-2011, 3:45 PM
It seems alot of people here are missing the point. Although a rifle near the passenger could be considered possible evidence of road hunting, The officer photographed a serial number on a 12031 search. This is NOT LEGAL. He over stepped his bounds. Weather the OP was hunting, Being a bi*ch, or sitting on antlers is irrelevant. An officer can only check a firearms' serial number on a 12031 is if he happens to remember it or is given permission by the owner to call it in.

taperxz
09-20-2011, 3:49 PM
It seems alot of people here are missing the point. The officer photographed a serial number on a 12031 search. This is NOT LEGAL. He over stepped his bounds. Weather the OP was hunting, Being a bi*ch, or sitting on antlers is irrelevant. An officer can only check a firearms' serial number on a 12031 is if he happens to remember it or is given permission by the owner to call it in.

OP does not know this, the OP said a pic of the rifle was taken and the warden would contact him if needed after investigation. For all we know, the warden could have been called to a private land killing of a buck, or just shots fired and the warden was going to locate a buck.

Unless the warden has a really good camera its pretty tough to get a serial number off a rifle made in 1951.

taperxz
09-20-2011, 3:52 PM
It seems alot of people here are missing the point. The officer photographed a serial number on a 12031 search. This is NOT LEGAL. He over stepped his bounds. Weather the OP was hunting, Being a bi*ch, or sitting on antlers is irrelevant. An officer can only check a firearms' serial number on a 12031 is if he happens to remember it or is given permission by the owner to call it in.

Nope its a F&G 2012 search;)

diginit
09-20-2011, 3:58 PM
OP does not know this, the OP said a pic of the rifle was taken and the warden would contact him if needed after investigation. For all we know, the warden could have been called to a private land killing of a buck, or just shots fired and the warden was going to locate a buck.

Unless the warden has a really good camera its pretty tough to get a serial number off a rifle made in 1951.
I read that a few pictures of the rifle including a closeup of the serial number were taken. Did the OP change his original post? If I remember correctly, Even on a F&G 2012. Serial numbers are not an issue. Loaded rifle, Game and Lic./tags is.

taperxz
09-20-2011, 4:06 PM
I read that a few pictures of the rifle including a closeup of the serial number were taken. Did the OP change his original post? If I remember correctly, Even on a F&G 2012. Serial numbers are not an issue. Loaded rifle, Game and Lic./tags is.

I do not believe the serials were taken with one pic! Regardless of the OP! Taking pics of a serial number is not that easy to do unless the state gives out some pretty nifty cameras to field wardens. JMO. Besides what good would the numbers be to him on a 60 year old rifle??

taperxz
09-20-2011, 4:08 PM
Yep looks like he changed it, originally he said the warden took a pic of the gun

diginit
09-20-2011, 4:11 PM
My brother said I’ll show it to you if you can tell me it’s not a violation of my civil rights. Little drops the license and tags questions and takes a camera out and starts taking pictures of my brother’s rifle and a close up of the serial number.

This is the same thing I read yesterday...But there are alot of misunderstandings here. i still think the GW was having a bad day. Why was he going so fast that he nearly collided with the OP anyway? That's my red flag question. Was he looking for an excuse to explain his actions on the road or what?

taperxz
09-20-2011, 4:15 PM
This is the same thing I read yesterday...But there are alot of misunderstandings here.

With those kind of questions to the warden its pretty much bam!! These guys are evading my simple requests. Like i said who's to know if that warden wasnt investigating a poaching in the area? The way the OP reads who knows if any pics were taken? Again it may not have been of the serial numbers anyway. Not even the OP can say for sure.

taperxz
09-20-2011, 4:18 PM
This is the same thing I read yesterday...But there are alot of misunderstandings here. i still think the GW was having a bad day. Why was he going so fast that he nearly collided with the OP anyway? That's my red flag question. Was he looking for an excuse to explain his actions on the road or what?

You've never seen a warden go after a poacher, have you..

Um, in most murder cases the body is left behind. In poaching cases what you killed stays with you;)

Bruce
09-20-2011, 4:34 PM
Nope its a F&G 2012 search;)

Like this?

"2012. All licenses, tags, and the birds, mammals, fish, reptiles,
or amphibians taken or otherwise dealt with under this code, and any
device or apparatus designed to be, and capable of being, used to
take birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians shall be exhibited
upon demand to any person authorized by the department to enforce
this code or any law relating to the protection and conservation of
birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians." Section 2012 F&G Code

VaderSpade
09-20-2011, 5:54 PM
Bruce, this applies only if you’re hunting.

Taper I watched him zoom in on the S/N it’s easy to see.

There were lots of hound hunters in the area I'm sure he was listening to their radios. F&G can also track the dogs and look for treeing collars. Someone at the gun shop got a ticket for bullet in the chamber less than two hours after our contact and about 20 miles away. He was flying everywhere. Opening day is like a kid being in a candy store to a warden.

Bruce
09-20-2011, 8:41 PM
Bruce, this applies only if youíre hunting.And it says that where in that section?
The game warden had the right to check your firearms under 2006 F&G Code. There is no "(e)check" in that section:
"2006. (a) It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in
any vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or
along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
open to the public.
(b) A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the
purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or
shell in the firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or
shells are in the magazine.
(c) The provisions of this section shall not apply to peace
officers or members of the Armed Forces of this state or the United
States, while on duty or going to or returning from duty."

Vader, you might be able to sell that "I wasn't hunting" line to the gullible, but face it you were out hunting. You know it, I know it, Taper knows it, but most especially that game warden knew it. You should count your blessings that game warden didn't cite you and confiscate your deer rifles. No, he wouldn't have won his case, but you wouldn't have your deer rifle for the season either.

Sgt Raven
09-20-2011, 10:58 PM
And please answer the question; I did NOT make it to Reno, did I gamble?

Yes, you gambled that you could make it to Reno. :p

Norsemen308
09-20-2011, 11:22 PM
F&G are out of control. They have tunnel vision. They think that the only reason people can carry guns is for hunting, and that is their domain. They don't understand (with a few exceptions of good wardens) that more folks out there carry for other reasons than hunting, and that it is our right under the Constitution and now affirmed by the Supreme Court. IMO F&G needs a good slap-down in the courts or publicly by a group like CGF to get them in line.



So your telling me you never got out of the truck or would have pursued game? but your brother has his gun sitting in his lap as your going down the dirt road?

for the whole, Its my right to bear arms, that is invalid, your in the field, with guns in deer season, one weapon of which is rightly able to possess and shoot game and your mad the guy asked for your hunting license? The second this whole trip went south is when you started mouthing off to the Warden, give him your license, let him check your rifle, and away you go.

Sounds like Warden Little was beyond his bounds to take photos, but just to let you know, if you are in the field (which you told him you where scouting....for deer....) He has a right to ask you to view your weapon and ask for your hunting license. These guys are hardly paid anything, yet they can be guaranteed that at most their stops someone does have a gun, and sadly as low life's are out there in force with hunting, they can deal with drunk belligerent idiots with guns. I have more respect for these guys then Police, when they have to call for back up, the next warden or leo can be 50 miles away..

what the heck is the difference between scouting during season and hunting? If your scouting you don't need a gun? I believe thats probably where he got pissed and in fact I would be a little confused to... you scout for deer before the season starts, I have done it plenty of times myself, But if your out in the field before the season starts and your holding a rifle, I guarantee you a Warden will be wondering WHY you have the rifle on your "scouting trip". BTW just general rule of thumb, you do not scout during season with guns in the truck, and your passenger HOLDING ONE... He was absolutely right, if a deer crossed your path, you wouldn't pursue? You looked like road hunters, no need to have the gun out if your just taking a peak at a hunting spot.


Its not intentional fishing, when personally you would have thrown flags with any Warden

shooterfpga
09-20-2011, 11:37 PM
save your text, its been repeated and repeated, exactly where he failed. he just doesnt learn and he'll be back again, with the same story different warden.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Sgt Raven
09-21-2011, 6:05 AM
I have a couple more questions.

IF the warden had the right to check (based on just being on a dirt road) L&T WHY did he drop the issue before seeing my brothers L&T??? My brother after all was the only one with a rifle near by.

Why was no one cited???

IF he didnít have the right to check my brothers L&T how was I NOT violated by being FORCED to show mine???

Yet, no one has been cited, yet. The Warden could file charges in the future, from this stop. :TFH:

jason el magnifico
09-21-2011, 11:28 AM
haha damn I'm a huge sucker for rights-violation posts and am usually in a state of disgust with the current scope and magnitude of the various codes in our lives, but I don't know about this one:

1.) Vader and his brother are in a truck with at least one uncased deer rifle in an area (as opposed to say...downtown SF) where deer are likely to be found, on opening day of deer season, and are upset that a F&G warden didn't instantly buy

"oh no we're not hunting, we were just scouting and our deer rifles just happen to be here in the truck because it's our 2A right"

or was it

"we were going to hunt but never made it to where we wanted to go because of that darn gate so you can take our word that we were not engaged in any hunting because we would totally admit it if we were because you know we would have only been hunting if we had actually made it to where we wanted to go"

and stopped them to check their L&T and weapons.

2.) The possibly overzealous F&G warden took at least one picture of one weapon, and may or may not have taken a picture of the serial number, which may or may not be a violation depending on the various codes involved, but really....what harm is done? A 50 year old deer rifle shows up in the secret gun confiscation registry?.

3.) Shockingly, calguns has not rushed to his defense with an outpouring of sympathy for these egregious rights violations. This proves that calguns is not sensitive to the erosion of our rights.

pepsi2451
09-21-2011, 12:25 PM
I didn't read the entire thread but from what I did read it seems a lot of people don't have any problem with what happened to the OP. My questions for them are:

Does the 2A not apply when in the woods unless you have a government issued hunting license?

I go shooting on land where it is legal to hunt, am I breaking the law if I don't bring my hunting license (even though I am not hunting)?

The way I look at it is, on the way in the OP was on his way to go hunting and if he admitted to that F&G code would apply. If he gave up after getting to the locked gate and decided to go home he would not be returning from hunting because he never hunted, so F&G code wouldn't apply.

Its sad that so many people here don't seem to have any problem with what happened. I'm all for catching poachers but I'm not willing to give up my rights over it.

Bruce
09-21-2011, 12:35 PM
I didn't read the entire thread but from what I did read it seems a lot of people don't have any problem with what happened to the OP. My questions for them are:

Does the 2A not apply when in the woods unless you have a government issued hunting license?

I go shooting on land where it is legal to hunt, am I breaking the law if I don't bring my hunting license (even though I am not hunting)?

The way I look at it is, on the way in the OP was on his way to go hunting and if he admitted to that F&G code would apply. If he gave up after getting to the locked gate and decided to go home he would not be returning from hunting because he never hunted, so F&G code wouldn't apply.

Its sad that so many people here don't seem to have any problem with what happened. I'm all for catching poachers but I'm not willing to give up my rights over it.

How exactly were his 2A rights violated? He kept his arms and bore them back home.(Keep and bear arms) All the warden did was check if they were loaded and ask to see licenses and tags as is his right under the Fish & Game Code. He never told them they couldn't carry guns around with them. The OP said they were scouting, but as the warden rightly pointed out, if a deer were to present itself, the scouting would be over in an instant. Any reasonable person would conclude from what the OP has posted that the OP was hunting no matter what he wants to call what he was doing.
Hunting is not a right but a sport, and heavily regulated one. If the OP doesn't want to go along with those regulations, then maybe he should take up knitting in its place.

paul0660
09-21-2011, 12:39 PM
he'll be back again, with the same story different warden.

HIS...........tory.

pepsi2451
09-21-2011, 12:54 PM
How exactly were his 2A rights violated? He kept his arms and bore them back home.(Keep and bear arms) All the warden did was check if they were loaded and ask to see licenses and tags as is his right under the Fish & Game Code. He never told them they couldn't carry guns around with them.

Your correct, his 2A rights weren't violated. His 4A rights were when he was detained longer then it took to check if his rifle was unloaded. But since the 2A does of course apply in the woods, he doesn't have to be hunting to have a rifle with him.

The OP said they were scouting, but as the warden rightly pointed out, if a deer were to present itself, the scouting would be over in an instant. Any reasonable person would conclude from what the OP has posted that the OP was hunting no matter what he wants to call what he was doing.
Hunting is not a right but a sport, and heavily regulated one. If the OP doesn't want to go along with those regulations, then maybe he should take up knitting in its place.

How do you know the warden was right when he said that?

So everyone that drives down the road with a rifle is hunting?

If I go target shooting in the woods can I be arrested for hunting without a license?

pepsi2451
09-21-2011, 1:09 PM
Actually now that I think about it his 2A rights may have been violated. If I can't keep and bare arms in the woods without submitting to a search, I would feel like that was an infringement.

That of course would only apply if having a rifle with him was the sole reason of the search.

Their could be more to the story but all we have to go on is the OPs side.

SoCalXD
09-21-2011, 1:39 PM
You'd think that with all the drug growing Mexican Cartel members armed with stolen weapons wandering around his forest, he'd have better things to do, even if he was a tree hugging vegan and hated hunters!

Bruce
09-21-2011, 2:13 PM
Your correct, his 2A rights weren't violated. His 4A rights were when he was detained longer then it took to check if his rifle was unloaded.

He wasn't UOC at the mall so get off the 12031 (e) check mentality.

But since the 2A does of course apply in the woods, he doesn't have to be hunting to have a rifle with him.

Sure he does nobody denied him that right.


How do you know the warden was right when he said that?

Oh come on. Do I really have to explain that one to you?

So everyone that drives down the road with a rifle is hunting?

If I go target shooting in the woods can I be arrested for hunting without a license?

No, but by the OP's own admission, there was some conversation between them as to what they were doing and where they were coming from. The OP did not say "we were out target shooting and are on our way home." His tale of woe might have been quite different if he had.


:facepalm:

NytWolf
09-21-2011, 2:32 PM
My brother had his rifle on the seat and officer DeWayne Little ask if he would slide the bolt back enough to see if it was loaded. He did and everything was fine.

I'm not sure where you're going with your defense, but how do you explain having a rifle in the passenger compartment when you weren't road hunting? You say you never made it to your hunting area, correct?

Also, to be quite honest, I have never seen where "intent" is taken into consideration. Facts, on the other hand, stand for themselves.

pepsi2451
09-21-2011, 2:38 PM
He wasn't UOC at the mall so get off the 12031 (e) check mentality.

He wasn't hunting either. Does F&G code now apply to everyone in the woods with a rifle?

No, but by the OP's own admission, there was some conversation between them as to what they were doing and where they were coming from. The OP did not say "we were out target shooting and are on our way home." His tale of woe might have been quite different if he had.

No, he said he was going to go hunting but didn't because the road was closed.

I'm not sure where you're going with your defense, but how do you explain having a rifle in the passenger compartment when you weren't road hunting? You say you never made it to your hunting area, correct?

He doesn't have to explain it, it isn't illegal. I usually have at least one rifle laying in my passenger seat when I go shooting. It usually sits there on my way to go hunting too.

taperxz
09-21-2011, 2:43 PM
He wasn't hunting either. Does F&G code now apply to everyone in the woods with a rifle?



No, he said he was going to go hunting but didn't because the road was closed.



He doesn't have to explain it, it isn't illegal. I usually have at least one rifle laying in my passenger seat when I go shooting. It usually sits there on my way to go hunt too.

A game warden is allowed to check anyone who is coming to or from hunting. Vader admitted coming from an attempted hunt thus the warden has a right to F&G 2010. Vader should not have told the warden he was coming back from an attempted hunt if he didn't want the warden to do his checking.. It was opening day deer season, with many other hunters in the area!!

Goosebrown
09-21-2011, 2:45 PM
Seriously. If you were "scouting" you wouldn't have had a rifle ready to go.

Quit whining and defending yourself. The GW was doing his job and was within his rights. Leave it alone, you sound like a clown.

Goosebrown
09-21-2011, 2:47 PM
"He wasn't hunting either. Does F&G code now apply to everyone in the woods with a rifle?"

F&G code says yes, it does if there is a reasonable presumption that they were hunting.

Think about it. If that were NOT the case than anyone poaching would merely have to state, "No officer. I was looking for my glasses I dropped here last year."

Come on. This is a total non-issue that makes us all seem like losers that cry like little girls when something doesn't go our way.

taperxz
09-21-2011, 2:50 PM
Seriously. If you were "scouting" you wouldn't have had a rifle ready to go.

Quit whining and defending yourself. The GW was doing his job and was within his rights. Leave it alone, you sound like a clown.

As much as i disagree with the OP, Vader is really pointing out the confusion of the PC VS. F&G and their authority. He is not a clown. He believes one thing and some of us believe another. If this was not a F&G stop but a UOC stop the whole forum would be up in arms about this stop. It is F&G though.

NytWolf
09-21-2011, 2:58 PM
He doesn't have to explain it, it isn't illegal. I usually have at least one rifle laying in my passenger seat when I go shooting. It usually sits there on my way to go hunting too.

Legality isn't my point. How does one explain "scouting" when one has a valid method of take readily available?

Bruce
09-21-2011, 3:16 PM
If this was not a F&G stop but a UOC stop the whole forum would be up in arms about this stop. It is F&G though.

And UOC is not a regulated activity and hunting is.

pepsi2451
09-21-2011, 3:44 PM
Legality isn't my point. How does one explain "scouting" when one has a valid method of take readily available?

He shouldn't have to explain anything. He didn't admit to hunting. "Scouting" isn't regulated.

A game warden is allowed to check anyone who is coming to or from hunting. Vader admitted coming from an attempted hunt thus the warden has a right to F&G 2010. Vader should not have told the warden he was coming back from an attempted hunt if he didn't want the warden to do his checking.. It was opening day deer season, with many other hunters in the area!!

But since he didn't get to hunt, he wasn't coming from hunting.

F&G code says yes, it does if there is a reasonable presumption that they were hunting.

So it is reasonable to assume anyone with in the woods with a rifle is hunting? So I can't go into the woods with a rifle without opening myself up to a search? How is that not an infringement on my right to bear arms?

Bruce
09-21-2011, 4:05 PM
He shouldn't have to explain anything. He didn't admit to hunting. "Scouting" isn't regulated.

You really want to buy into that line don't you.

But since he didn't get to hunt, he wasn't coming from hunting.

But that was his intent and makes him subject to F&G codes. Es pecially since he said that was his intent.


So it is reasonable to assume anyone with in the woods with a rifle is hunting?
To F&G, yes.
So I can't go into the woods with a rifle without opening myself up to a search?

Depends on what you're doing with the rifle. .

How is that not an infringement on my right to bear arms?

How is it an infringement?




:facepalm:

pepsi2451
09-21-2011, 4:38 PM
You really want to buy into that line don't you.

It doesn't matter if I buy it, it doesn't prove he was hunting. With the second, forth and fifth amendments, just having a rifle in a vehicle shouldn't be enough to apply F&G codes unless they admit to hunting IMO.

To F&G, yes.

How is it an infringement?

So your saying I can't exercise my 2A rights without giving up my 4A rights and you don't see that as an infringement?

taperxz
09-21-2011, 6:57 PM
Pepsi, its quite clear you know absolutely nothing about hunting, its laws and why they are there. The wardens protect a public resource. When you buy that license, you are subjected to the rules. Vader told the warden he woke up loaded up the truck to go hunting. Thats the magic statement. The reason they have the rules is because anyone can make up what they were or werent doing OR!!! remain silent. When Vader woke up and went to go hunting, that is reason enough for a warden to check to make sure that he is AUTHORIZED to do so. Thats what happens when you sign on the dotted line. Its a sport, a game. a challenge. the officials are there to make sure you play by the rules for the preservation of the resource.

If you don't like the rules dont play the game. Thats the way it is set up whether you like it or not. YES you basically waive certain rights when you play the game!!!

kcbrown
09-21-2011, 7:17 PM
If you don't like the rules dont play the game. Thats the way it is set up whether you like it or not. YES you basically waive certain rights when you play the game!!!

Unless, of course, hunting is a right. :D

In reality, I expect that most of the rules would stand, but some of them might not. You cannot be forced to waive one right just to exercise another. For instance, the government cannot force a woman to give up her right to free speech (e.g., to talk about her experiences with the public hospital) in order to obtain an abortion (I talk about an abortion here because that has been called out as a right by the courts, even though it's not an enumerated right).

pepsi2451
09-21-2011, 7:55 PM
Pepsi, its quite clear you know absolutely nothing about hunting, its laws and why they are there.

I well aware of the hunting regulations and why they are there.

The wardens protect a public resource.

No arguments from me there.

When you buy that license, you are subjected to the rules.

Yes, while hunting or going to or from hunting. If I decide to drive through the woods with a rifle on my way target shooting and I have no intentions of hunting I don't believe the regulations apply.

Vader told the warden he woke up loaded up the truck to go hunting. Thats the magic statement. The reason they have the rules is because anyone can make up what they were or werent doing OR!!! remain silent.

But he didn't admit to hunting. If the warden asked him if he was hunting and he remained silent would the warden still be able to apply F&G regs?

When Vader woke up and went to go hunting, that is reason enough for a warden to check to make sure that he is AUTHORIZED to do so. Thats what happens when you sign on the dotted line. Its a sport, a game. a challenge. the officials are there to make sure you play by the rules for the preservation of the resource.

I would agree up until he decided not to hunt and returned home. At that point he wasn't on his way to go hunting and since he didn't hunt he wasn't returning from hunting. He was just a guy in the woods with a gun.

If you don't like the rules dont play the game. Thats the way it is set up whether you like it or not. YES you basically waive certain rights when you play the game!!!

I agree with this. I don't have any problem showing my L&T when I'm hunting or traveling to or from. I'm sure if I was in the OPs situation I would have just showed him my L&T and asked if he knew of any bucks in the area. Heck I even showed my CA L&T to an OR state trooper that stopped my on my way passing through OR, I have no idea why he wanted to see it. He just made sure I knew I was in OR and sent me on my way.

I do think the OP was technically in the right though and if he wants to exercise his rights more power to him. Its a slippery slope if they can apply F&G code to anyone just for having a rifle in the woods and its scary how many people especially on a 2A forum would be fine with that.

camsoup
09-21-2011, 8:13 PM
I literality had NO time to scout for deer season this year so when my brother called and ask if we were going hunting, I said ďwe can go do a little scouting I donít know where to go huntingĒ. I have had no time to check out the acorns or any other conditions.

So thatís what we did we went scouting. I told my brother that I saw an old road that I wanted to check out. The road has a forest service sign that has been there for at least 50 years, on the sign it says Bagly jeep trail 28 miles among other destinations, but 12 miles down the road we came to a locked gate and our day was over before it began. When one see a Forest Service sign that list a destination 28 miles away you trust that you can get there. This is like seeing a state highway sign that says Reno 200 miles only to find a gate 100 miles down the road.

On the way out a F&G truck came screaming around a corner at a high rate of speed just about running us off the dirt road. He slid to a stop rolled his window down and asks how we were. Fine I said. My brother had his rifle on the seat and officer DeWayne Little ask if he would slide the bolt back enough to see if it was loaded. He did and everything was fine. Officer Little then ask if I had a gun? In the back I said. In a case he ask, Yes I answered. ďWhat are you guys doing todayĒ he ask ďjust scoutingĒ I said. We made some small talk I voiced my disappointment that the whole world was being locked up. Instead of being sympathetic he just said itís SP land they can do what they want. Everything was in order, BUT he had to push things and go on a fishing expedition. Have you been hunting he ask, no just scouting weíre locked out of where we hoping to go hunting I said.

He gets real pissed off and said stay right there as he pulled forward far enough to get his door open. He jumped out and said can I see your hunting license? I told him we werenít hunting and ask if I had to show my license. You are in the field on opening day with a method of take, let me see your license!!! I handed him my license but said I believe your violating my civil rights I have the right to bear arms, I have NOT been hunting. Everything was in order then he pulled my rifle out of its case from the back of my truck. I again told him he was violating my civil rights. ďIím just doing my jobĒ he said. I told him NO youíre going way beyond doing your job. You have seen that everything is in order but still you insist on going fishing. You are WAY over zealous, why canít you leave honest sportsmen be once youíve seen things are in order.

Again he said he was just doing his job, and then ask my brother for his license and tags. I wasnít hunting my brother said. Little ask ďYou didnít get out and walk around at all?Ē My brother said what if I did I have the right to bear arms. ďGET OUT OF THE TRUCKĒ Little shouts. My brother gets out, Little takes his gun tells me to stay back, and again asks my brother for his license. My brother said Iíll show it to you if you can tell me itís not a violation of my civil rights. Little drops the license and tags questions and takes a camera out and starts taking pictures of my brotherís rifle and a close up of the serial number. I flat out told him he didnít have the right to do that. WHATíS your name Little ask my brother, my brother said Russ. I may be in touch with you little said as he tries to hand me my brotherís gun. Thatís not my gun I said and pointed to my brother. As little handed my brother back his gun my brother ask why would you get in touch with me? Little said I may or may not be filing a complaint depending on where my investigation takes me. ???

We told him we werenít hunting and he asks if there was any game at our feet? Insulting!

He said; don't tell me you wouldn't shoot a buck if he jumped out in the road? Shooting from or across ANY public road is a violation. This makes ANY road hunting illegal.

Long after we complied with the e-check and made friendly small talk he started with the insulting questions. When we said we didnít want to go fishing with him he got pissed ordered us out of the truck and started with the intimidation.
We never got to our destination, so we NEVER hunted, road hunting is illegal so we were NOT hunting. If we were not hunting why were we forced to show our licenses and tags? I understand an e-check (or terry stop) has to end when it is determined that a gun is not loaded. What gave officer Little the right to photograph the gun and take the serial number?

I should say that Dewayne Little is well known for being WAY over zealous when it comes to enforcing the law. I have heard that at least one county wonít prosecute any case that heís involved with.

I haven't read the thread only this original post.... but two words from your post ring so loudly than the others. Dwayne Little.... he is a complete ***, and will push every button and fish for hours trying to get some dirt on someone. How he can call himself a law enforcement officer is beyond me.

I could go on and on with my personal run-ins with him, let alone the runs ins of family and friend involving him.


To be more general about F&G over the last 4-6 years, they have gotten out of control. They are also granted so much more power than normal law enforcement its beyond funny. They can enter private land without permission if they "reasonably" believe any hunting or fishing activity is taking place.

We have been harnessed on our own land, and the neighboring land of a good family friend by 2 different wardens "just doing there" jobs....they had no idea who owned the land, yet because they saw us enter through a gate with a pickup and quad he "assumed" we must be hunting and/or trespassing and entered the land through a closed and chained (not locked) gate....this warden then proceeded to ID my Father, and also check our rifles for loaded status. He thought the land was owned by so and so....couldn't admit he was wrong when he was told not only do we have permission to be here, but we own it, he then decided to run our ID's and wanted to check loaded status on my sidearm. I politely told him, it isn't in the vehicle (it was on my hip), this is not a prohibited area of unincorporated territory therefore 12031 (e) does not apply. He then gave us some BS about having his partner on the ridge watching us and that he had to confirm with him whether to proceed with wanting to inspect my sidearm. After a minute or two he simply handed back the ID's without running them and said have fun shooting.

camsoup
09-21-2011, 8:28 PM
Sorry, but no fail. Unless the regs have changed, if your in an area where you are hunting (scouting with a rifle in the front seat is considered hunting) you are required to have a hunting license, and produce that upon demand by a peace officer.

And saying you have a rifle in a case permits the echeck of said rifle.

Being in an area where hunting season is open, AND having a firearm does not mean you are in fact hunting. It has been ruled that you can have a firearm in an open hunting area if you aren't hunting.

Your opinion of a rifle in the front seat plus scouting is hunting, is only your opinion. Is it illegal to have the rifle in the front seat? No. Was the road open to vehicle traffic? Yes,sounds like it.

I routinely carry a 9mm sidearm in the field, whether hunting or fishing. 9mm is a center fire cartridge, it can be used to legally take non game animals, and deer in this state. Does that mean a F&G warden has the right to ask me for my hunting license anytime (coyote is open all year) or even ask me for my hunting license if I happen to have my 9mm on me and am walking in an open deer zone? No I don't know think he has the right. A rifle is not any different, my right to bear arms includes pistols, rifles or shotguns

taperxz
09-21-2011, 8:51 PM
Being in an area where hunting season is open, AND having a firearm does not mean you are in fact hunting. It has been ruled that you can have a firearm in an open hunting area if you aren't hunting.

Your opinion of a rifle in the front seat plus scouting is hunting, is only your opinion. Is it illegal to have the rifle in the front seat? No. Was the road open to vehicle traffic? Yes,sounds like it.

I routinely carry a 9mm sidearm in the field, whether hunting or fishing. 9mm is a center fire cartridge, it can be used to legally take non game animals, and deer in this state. Does that mean a F&G warden has the right to ask me for my hunting license anytime (coyote is open all year) or even ask me for my hunting license if I happen to have my 9mm on me and am walking in an open deer zone? No I don't know think he has the right. A rifle is not any different, my right to bear arms includes pistols, rifles or shotguns

OK Vader

VaderSpade
09-22-2011, 6:50 AM
I haven't read the thread only this original post.... but two words from your post ring so loudly than the others. Dwayne Little.... he is a complete ***, and will push every button and fish for hours trying to get some dirt on someone. How he can call himself a law enforcement officer is beyond me.

I could go on and on with my personal run-ins with him, let alone the runs ins of family and friend involving him.


To be more general about F&G over the last 4-6 years, they have gotten out of control. They are also granted so much more power than normal law enforcement its beyond funny. They can enter private land without permission if they "reasonably" believe any hunting or fishing activity is taking place.

We have been harnessed on our own land, and the neighboring land of a good family friend by 2 different wardens "just doing there" jobs....they had no idea who owned the land, yet because they saw us enter through a gate with a pickup and quad he "assumed" we must be hunting and/or trespassing and entered the land through a closed and chained (not locked) gate....this warden then proceeded to ID my Father, and also check our rifles for loaded status. He thought the land was owned by so and so....couldn't admit he was wrong when he was told not only do we have permission to be here, but we own it, he then decided to run our ID's and wanted to check loaded status on my sidearm. I politely told him, it isn't in the vehicle (it was on my hip), this is not a prohibited area of unincorporated territory therefore 12031 (e) does not apply. He then gave us some BS about having his partner on the ridge watching us and that he had to confirm with him whether to proceed with wanting to inspect my sidearm. After a minute or two he simply handed back the ID's without running them and said have fun shooting.

As I was saying if this were a local thread with people that knew this warden every post would look like this.
Taper is just trolling, he clearly has too much time on his hands. It may be time for him to move out of his momís basement and get a job. Or at least get out hunting. Iím done feeding this troll who is just arguing to hear himself type, sad really.
Now he thinks Iím camsoup, thatís right I signed up as camsoup a couple years before I sign up as vader because I knew this day would come.
Thanks for your support camsoup, pepsi2451 and the others that believe some wardens can be out of control. As I said I have had dozens of encounters that ended with have a nice day. In half of those nice stops I stated I was not hunting and was sent on my way.

VaderSpade
09-22-2011, 6:50 AM
OK Vader

Busted :facepalm:

Bruce
09-22-2011, 6:55 AM
Personally Vader, I 'm thinking you made the whole story up just to bad mouth a game warden you don't like. Asking for your hunting license is hardly an "insulting question".
Have a nice day. :)

VaderSpade
09-22-2011, 7:28 AM
He first asks if we were hunting, we said NO, he then ask if we had game at our feet.
I conceder that insulting.

jason el magnifico
09-22-2011, 9:05 AM
Vader: I think it's safe to say that this is probably the most sympathetic audience you could hope to find in this state with respect to 2A, 4A, etc. issues. I watched some news story recently about DFG setting up a checkpoint to catch abalone poachers; I hate poachers but I hate checkpoints (for any reason including DUI) more and was fairly disgusted by the story, even if they did find a lot of illegally taken abalone.

With that in mind the fact that this thread doesn't have 8 pages of "ah hell man you did get violated let's lock-and-load and storm DFG's HQ" replies should tell you something about your incident....

The warden in question may very well be an overzealous jackass notorious for giving people a hard time. The incident you are describing here does not seem to be something worth getting so worked up about.

shooterfpga
09-22-2011, 9:32 AM
He first asks if we were hunting, we said NO, he then ask if we had game at our feet.
I conceder that insulting.

because a possible poacher is going to tell the truth. everything you did was the behavior of someone acting suspicious. guns at the ready, front seat, in your hand.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

NytWolf
09-22-2011, 1:02 PM
Originally Posted by NytWolf
Legality isn't my point. How does one explain "scouting" when one has a valid method of take readily available?

He shouldn't have to explain anything. He didn't admit to hunting. "Scouting" isn't regulated.


So let's say you were out relaxing by the river. Next to you, you have a fishing pole, fishing gear, and bait there. The line isn't casted. All that equipment is just lying there in plain view.

Fish and Game rolls up, asks you if you were fishing. What do you say? "I was just relaxing." He asks you for a fishing license. You say again, "I was just relaxing here." He checks your license anyway, checks your equipment for legality, and then continues his merry way.

The act of fishing or hunting was not apparent, yet all the circumstantial evidence says otherwise. It is circumstantial evidence that establishes the warden's right to ask you for your license.

VaderSpade
09-22-2011, 1:21 PM
NytWolf; The act of fishing or hunting was not apparent.

But it needs to be.

If the bait ain’t on the hook and the hook ain’t in the water nobodies fishing.

My sister got a ticket years ago when she went out with the guys and her 6 y/o daughter. The guys were all fishing and had licenses; she was not fishing but tried to help her daughter cast a line. As soon as she cast the line the warden came out of the woods and said that’s what I was waiting for, and wrote her up for fishing without a license.
He explained that he had to wait until he witnessed her fishing before he could do a thing. Up until that point she was just relaxing near the water with a pole by her side.

And I wasn’t even in the field I just happened to have a fishing pole in my truck, Was I fishing???

NytWolf
09-22-2011, 1:34 PM
NytWolf; The act of fishing or hunting was not apparent.

But it needs to be.

If the bait ainít on the hook and the hook ainít in the water nobodies fishing.

My sister got a ticket years ago when she went out with the guys and her 6 y/o daughter. The guys were all fishing and had licenses; she was not fishing but tried to help her daughter cast a line. As soon as she cast the line the warden came out of the woods and said thatís what I was waiting for, and wrote her up for fishing without a license.
He explained that he had to wait until he witnessed her fishing before he could do a thing. Up until that point she was just relaxing near the water with a pole by her side.

And I wasnít even in the field I just happened to have a fishing pole in my truck, Was I fishing???

I understand that and I understand why you are pissed about the warden asking you for your license. In the example of your sister, she was cited. In your situation and my example, nobody was cited.

What I'm saying is, when circumstantial evidence points to the intent, it becomes the warden's call whether or not to question the subject. Ultimately in the end, nobody was cited. IMHO, there was no 4A violation because the law allows the warden to make that decision.

VaderSpade
09-22-2011, 1:51 PM
I understand your point BUT your example assumes too much. I was NOT in the field, or down by the river. Shooting from or across any public road is illegal, so I was not seen hunting.
Also the warden had to have the last word and said we may be cited, so we can't say no one was cited just yet.
I guess my point is that I don't think there was enough circumstantial evidence to allow the warden to go as far as photographing a rifle. How could that act help him prove we were hunting???

The warden that cited my sister put in the time to watch and wait and did not just run down and hassle everyone.

In the end my sister beat the ticket, her daughter is disabled, and either the laws allows for a non-fishing person to help a disabled person or she got a sympathetic judge?

VaderSpade
09-22-2011, 2:12 PM
Also if they had the right to check for L&T why did the warden drop the issue before seeing my brother’s L&T?
He after all was the one that had the rifle in the front seat. Mine was in a case in the back.

VaderSpade
09-22-2011, 2:20 PM
NytWolf

Thanks for being civil, the whole point of this thread is to put the arguments out there so they can be hashed out, and laws cited. I have written F&G asking them to cite some laws. This thread has helped my figure out just what to ask.
Your responses show that it can be done without calling someone a poacher, a snake or worse, so thanks again.

Wolverine
09-22-2011, 2:37 PM
NytWolf; The act of fishing or hunting was not apparent.

But it needs to be.

If the bait ain’t on the hook and the hook ain’t in the water nobodies fishing.

My sister got a ticket years ago when she went out with the guys and her 6 y/o daughter. The guys were all fishing and had licenses; she was not fishing but tried to help her daughter cast a line. As soon as she cast the line the warden came out of the woods and said that’s what I was waiting for, and wrote her up for fishing without a license.
He explained that he had to wait until he witnessed her fishing before he could do a thing. Up until that point she was just relaxing near the water with a pole by her side.

And I wasn’t even in the field I just happened to have a fishing pole in my truck, Was I fishing???

The are several things going on with your encounter each giving F&G wardens different authority.

Asking for a license and tags, even if it sounds demanding, is essentially a consensual encounter for which the warden needs no special suspicion or cause. They can walk up to anyone and ask and you can answer or you can simply walk away. The warden can only detain you if he can articulate a reasonable belief that you were engaged in hunting/fishing, and cite you only on the higher standard of probable cause.

The authority to detain you and inspect your rifles to verify that they do not have a round chambered they have whether or not you are hunting. Once he sees a rifle or you tell him there is one in a vehicle or on a roadway he is authorized to detain you and do the inspection.

He asked about game, again that he can do anytime/anywhere and you can answer or walk away. If he could articulate a reasonable belief that you are or recently have been hunting then he is authorized to detain you and search you, your vehicle and any containers that could contain game. Since the warden sounds like the kind of guy that would just love to have pulled you out of the truck and toss it, that he didn't do so speaks to me that he couldn't articulate a reasonable belief that you were hunting.

So, boiling it down, it looks like your detention was authorized because he can inspect any rifle in a vehicle and had nothing to do with him having a reasonable belief that you were hunting.

VaderSpade
09-22-2011, 2:46 PM
Wolverine

All good points, and if we would have been free to walk away I would not have a problem with the encounter.

AFTER checking and seeing the rifle was NOT loaded he ORDERED us to STAY RIGHT THERE, and then took my brothers rifle and photographed it.

I repeatedly said the magic words “Why are we being detained” and “are we free to go” He never responded to these questions.

johnny_22
09-22-2011, 2:54 PM
NytWolf; The act of fishing or hunting was not apparent.

But it needs to be.

If the bait ainít on the hook and the hook ainít in the water nobodies fishing.

My sister got a ticket years ago when she went out with the guys and her 6 y/o daughter. The guys were all fishing and had licenses; she was not fishing but tried to help her daughter cast a line. As soon as she cast the line the warden came out of the woods and said thatís what I was waiting for, and wrote her up for fishing without a license.
He explained that he had to wait until he witnessed her fishing before he could do a thing. Up until that point she was just relaxing near the water with a pole by her side.

And I wasnít even in the field I just happened to have a fishing pole in my truck, Was I fishing???

No license in CA needed at 6 years old

"Required for a resident 16 years of age or older to take fish, mollusks, crustaceans, invertebrates, amphibians or reptile in inland or ocean waters. Additional validations and report cards are required for certain species and areas."
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/fishing/fishdescrip.html

Wolverine
09-22-2011, 3:05 PM
Wolverine

All good points, and if we would have been free to walk away I would not have a problem with the encounter.

AFTER checking and seeing the rifle was NOT loaded he ORDERED us to STAY RIGHT THERE, and then took my brothers rifle and photographed it.

I repeatedly said the magic words ďWhy are we being detainedĒ and ďare we free to goĒ He never responded to these questions.

Yes, I think we have all agreed that the detention to inspect your rifles should have ended as soon as the warden checked the chambers. Unlike many others I don't believe there existed reasonable belief that you were hunting. If it were me I would at least write a complaint and send it to the Lieutenant in charge up there. I've worked with couple of F&G LTs over the years and they are generally pretty good guys.

The idea that some have that rifle + woods = hunting is nuts to me especially when scoping out a new area. You never know what you are going to run into like this poor guy -> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/29/jere-melo-slain_n_940529.html

Wolverine
09-22-2011, 3:10 PM
Wolverine

AFTER checking and seeing the rifle was NOT loaded he ORDERED us to STAY RIGHT THERE, and then took my brothers rifle and photographed it.

I repeatedly said the magic words ďWhy are we being detainedĒ and ďare we free to goĒ He never responded to these questions.

In addition...Yes, the courts have not given us any tools to allow us to determine when we are being detained. LEO don't have to tell us as you have found out, even though most will do so. The only real way to find out is to walk/drive away and wait to see if you get tackled:( or not:)

parcours
11-22-2011, 5:53 PM
I think this should end this thread:D

Well said....

So let's say you were out relaxing by the river. Next to you, you have a fishing pole, fishing gear, and bait there. The line isn't casted. All that equipment is just lying there in plain view.

Fish and Game rolls up, asks you if you were fishing. What do you say? "I was just relaxing." He asks you for a fishing license. You say again, "I was just relaxing here." He checks your license anyway, checks your equipment for legality, and then continues his merry way.

The act of fishing or hunting was not apparent, yet all the circumstantial evidence says otherwise. It is circumstantial evidence that establishes the warden's right to ask you for your license.