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vince42
09-16-2011, 7:26 AM
I am looking to buy a used Kahr M9093 from out of state but the list shows the m9093a as the approved model. But I have seen the m9093 available new at a LGS. Is there any difference? How can I let the selling FFL know its ok to ship the M9093, or is it?....I am only in the market at 500 ..typical used price...new they are closer to 700. thanks for any knowledgable help, I could not find any online info.

James

djleisure
09-16-2011, 11:08 AM
The list is very specific (even down to color,) so if that little "a" is NOT on the model you want, you are most likely SOL (unless you're LEO?)

g_conway
09-16-2011, 1:45 PM
Actually, the list has a specific clause that says in effect.
"any model that is the same as a model on roster is also allowed." Things like finish, other factory grips, etc do not automatically make it non-roster. You willl have to research with the MFG s t what he difference (if any) is. As long as no functional parts are different, you can probably get it.

titus75
09-16-2011, 3:59 PM
Actually, the list has a specific clause that says in effect.
"any model that is the same as a model on roster is also allowed." Things like finish, other factory grips, etc do not automatically make it non-roster. You willl have to research with the MFG s t what he difference (if any) is. As long as no functional parts are different, you can probably get it.

Okay, so if the S&W 4506 is on the roster but the 4506-1 is not and the only difference between the two are the backstrap and the curve on the trigger guard then why can't I get the 4506-1 shipped into the state? I've been told in the FFL forum that any difference at all no matter how small means if it's not the roster you can't get it shipped into CA.

brianm767
09-16-2011, 4:33 PM
No expert but a Kahr Fan, the older models as I recall had either a "A" or "N" at the end of the model number, A was standard sights, N was night sights,

Newer models have no letter for standard sights, L for Crimson trace laser, N for night sights or Novac for , well I guess you can figure that one out.

I believe the two guns you mentioned are the same just new part number, and old part number, I believe the older guns with standard sights had an A at the end, but Kahr can tell you for sure. if Kahr verifies this and gives you verification, a FFL who knows the exemptions will do the transfer, a FFL who is not aware of exemptions will not..

I would contact Kahr and ask them.


Kahr pt number breakdown

Kahr Model Legend

TP: Polymer Frame, 4" Barrel
KP: Polymer Frame, 3.6" Barrel, 2.5" Barrel (.380 ACP Models)
PM: Polymer Frame, 3" Barrel
KT: Steel Frame, 4" Barrel
K: Steel Frame, 3.5" Barrel
M: Steel Frame, 3" Barrel
CW: Concealed Weapon, Polymer Frame & Stainless Steel Slide, 3.6" Barrel
CM: Concealed Weapon, Polymer Frame & Stainless Steel Slide, 3.0" Barrel

1st Three Numbers
454: .45 ACP
404: .40 S&W
919: 9mm (with External Safety & LCI)
909: 9mm
383: .380 ACP 4th Number
0: Carbon Steel, Black Oxide*
1: Carbon Steel, Nickel Finish*
2: Carbon Steel, Black T Finish*
3: Matte Stainless Steel
4: Blackened Stainless Steel
6: Polished Stainless Steel, Elite98*
8: Polished Stainless Steel, Elite2003
* Discontinued

Letters at end
L: Crimson Trace Laser Sight
N: Tritium Night Sights
NOVAK: Novak Low Profile Tritium Night Sights

titus75
09-16-2011, 4:36 PM
Where is that roster clause? Does anyone have a link I'd like to read in entirety, I didn't see it on DOJ website

ke6guj
09-16-2011, 4:38 PM
Where is that roster clause? Does anyone have a link I'd like to read in entirety, I didn't see it on DOJ websitehttp://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12125.php

vince42
09-16-2011, 5:56 PM
Thanks......

James

g_conway
09-16-2011, 6:42 PM
Okay, so if the S&W 4506 is on the roster but the 4506-1 is not and the only difference between the two are the backstrap and the curve on the trigger guard then why can't I get the 4506-1 shipped into the state? I've been told in the FFL forum that any difference at all no matter how small means if it's not the roster you can't get it shipped into CA.

That actually has to do with that stores policy, not the roster.
Single shotting can bypass the roster all-together, but most shops will not ship anyway. We can't control what out-of-state shops will or won't do.

I'll see if I can find the statment that explains "like guns" again. (Found it, here is the pertinant part.)
I think the bolded section would apply to the 4506 / 4506-1 you would probably need an email from S&W stating that the changes meet the below requirements.

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm. (b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other respects identical to the listed firearm.
(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model complies with the requirements of this section.

titus75
09-16-2011, 7:02 PM
That actually has to do with that stores policy, not the roster.
Single shotting can bypass the roster all-together, but most shops will not ship anyway. We can't control what out-of-state shops will or won't do.

I'll see if I can find the statment that explains "like guns" again. (Found it, here is the pertinant part.)
I think the bolded section would apply to the 4506 / 4506-1 you would probably need an email from S&W stating that the changes meet the below requirements.

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm. (b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other respects identical to the listed firearm.
(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model complies with the requirements of this section.

I think I can get a 4506-1 shipped no problem, most that I've seen on GB and GA will ship to CA, what concerns me is a CA ffl accepting it and doing dros, I'll try S&W for that email I don't see why it would not qualify under those guidelines if you look at the 4506 and the -1 you will see what I mean, there are quite a few 4506-1's but very few (practically none) 4506's that I've found. I don't know if a single shot exemption would be possible, seems like it would be cost prohibitive, thanks for the info though, I've spent hours scouring gun sites and pawn shops and the like.

ke6guj
09-16-2011, 7:11 PM
just getting a letter from S&W is not enough. S&W would need to seek to have that firearm model listed. They would need to contact CADOJ to have it listed, and would need to pay the yearly listing fees for that gun.

g_conway
09-16-2011, 7:16 PM
just getting a letter from S&W is not enough. S&W would need to seek to have that firearm model listed. They would need to contact CADOJ to have it listed, and would need to pay the yearly listing fees for that gun.

Wrong, it would be considered a "like" weapon and would NOT have to be added to the roster. re-read earlier post for "like" weapon description.

ke6guj
09-16-2011, 7:24 PM
Wrong, it would be considered a "like" weapon and would NOT have to be added to the roster. re-read earlier post for "like" weapon description.


12135.5 is a 2-part section. it says that if a manufacturer has an unlisted firearm that is "like" an already listed model, they need to provide that info to CADOJ, per (b).

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other respects identical to the listed firearm.
(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model complies with the requirements of this section.

vince42
09-17-2011, 10:59 AM
the out of state FFL wont ship even though the m9093 is available at LGS. I did not give him a hard time, he would have shipped if the list was exact and not so open to different interpretations....I do not doubt i will have one soon at the price i want.

Thanks,

James