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View Full Version : HST VS. RANGER ?


HK-40
09-15-2011, 11:02 AM
As far as accuracy goes which one do You like?

daybreak
09-15-2011, 11:12 AM
Rangers are by far more accurate, anyone who says HST is a delusioned fanboy. If I had to assign a percentage value, I'd say 73% more accurate.

Sebass
09-15-2011, 11:21 AM
tagged

rtlltj
09-15-2011, 11:26 AM
As far as accuracy goes which one do You like?

Depends on the gun. My experience is that unless the specific gun doesn't like a specific ammo, most high quality defensive ammunition is going to shoot accurate enough that its the person pulling the trigger that makes the biggest difference at 7 or 15 yards. I don't really see a point in benchrest shooting a pistol at close range to find out that ranger shoots a .25 group better than HST. As long as it shoots at what your aiming at and it functions with similiar terminal ballistics then go with the one that costs the least.

zfields
09-15-2011, 11:29 AM
Rangers are by far more accurate, anyone who says HST is a delusioned fanboy. If I had to assign a percentage value, I'd say 73% more accurate.

I find golddots to be about 27.3% more accurate then rangers.

lawaia
09-15-2011, 11:45 AM
Rangers are by far more accurate, anyone who says HST is a delusioned fanboy. If I had to assign a percentage value, I'd say 73% more accurate.

:facepalm::rofl2:

CK_32
09-15-2011, 11:48 AM
OP to be honest factory ammo is probably more accurate than we are. I say dont really worry about it unless you plan on taking shots at the bad guy at 25 yards or more or a hostage head shot. Which I do not recommend..

One thing I've learned is around here you wont get an answer. Just a ton of suggestions and fan boys. Go and try a box of your own stuff and tell us.
Its the best thing you will ever do and you will have no doubt in your mind if that time to use them ever comes.

Mr.1904
09-15-2011, 12:04 PM
OP to be honest factory ammo is probably more accurate than we are. I say dont really worry about it unless you plan on taking shots at the bad guy at 25 yards or more or a hostage head shot. Which I do not recommend..

One thing I've learned is around here you wont get an answer. Just a ton of suggestions and fan boys. Go and try a box of your own stuff and tell us.
Its the best thing you will ever do and you will have no doubt in your mind if that time to use them ever comes.

Yup

M. D. Van Norman
09-15-2011, 12:08 PM
I’m 17.4% more accurate with ammunition. :eek:

Massan
09-15-2011, 12:12 PM
Rangers are by far more accurate, anyone who says HST is a delusioned fanboy. If I had to assign a percentage value, I'd say 73% more accurate.

:confused: I don't really see how you got your precentage but meh.

I don't think there is a vast enough difference between the two that will affect your accuracy. Both are well designed rounds so I expect them to perform about the same(no experience with Ranger, just HST).

CK_32
09-15-2011, 12:13 PM
I’m 17.4% more accurate with ammunition. :eek:

Lcuky! I'm actually 100% less accurate :(

When I shoot my snap caps I hit bull every time. Once did a 700 yard 9mm shot. Its true :D

Sturnovik
09-15-2011, 12:40 PM
As far as accuracy goes which one do You like?

I dont buy alot of Fed ammo anymore but there quality, just expensive in my area and had some issues with some rifle rounds. I love Rangers, but end up using gold dots alot. I used to use subsonic 180 grain .40 Ranger in my Beretta 96, traded it for a magnum, but I love that round.

I'm assuming you mean in defensive loads such as HP not fMJ?

Bhobbs
09-15-2011, 1:26 PM
I find my tactical ninja stars to be 99.9% more accurate.

Dhena81
09-15-2011, 1:27 PM
OP to be honest factory ammo is probably more accurate than we are. I say dont really worry about it unless you plan on taking shots at the bad guy at 25 yards or more or a hostage head shot. Which I do not recommend..

One thing I've learned is around here you wont get an answer. Just a ton of suggestions and fan boys. Go and try a box of your own stuff and tell us.
Its the best thing you will ever do and you will have no doubt in your mind if that time to use them ever comes.

:grouphug:

Snoopy47
09-15-2011, 1:40 PM
I’m 17.4% more accurate with ammunition. :eek:


I'm 100% more accurate. Without it I dont' hit anything.

esartori
09-15-2011, 2:27 PM
I like rangers myself out of my 1911. As others have said, try a box or two of each. Stick with what works best. I'd say reliability is more key than the slight differences in accuracy u may encounter.

bigmark408
09-15-2011, 2:46 PM
What lube is the best ?.... i run wet....lmfao.

RollingCode3
09-15-2011, 3:15 PM
HST or Ranger?

I only use HST and Speer GoldDot on both my HD and CCW handguns. I have seen and read multiple tests, as well as actual shootings (local PD), where Winchester Rangers, in various calibers and weights, have failed to expand when fired through heavy/thick clothing. In addition, Ranger ammo is harder to find and more expensive.

JeremyS
09-15-2011, 3:23 PM
As far as accuracy goes which one do You like?
These are self defense rounds, not target shooting rounds. They are both more than accurate enough for any self defense type of situation. If you're trying to choose between them, look at data that makes you feel one might be better than the other for self defense. For instance, the documents and videos here: http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

On top of that, shoot both our of YOUR gun. Some guns (specific brands, models, or even individual guns) will shoot one type of ammo better than another, and other guns will be the exact opposite. Some people will shoot one ammo better than the other, for various reasons from bullet weight to perceived recoil and how the powder burns, etc. Some guns will cycle one ammo more or less reliably than the other.

So... 1) I think looking for the "most accurate" one is a mistake in the first place, because that's not the primary intent of this ammo and 2) what works for me wont necessarily work for you. Try them both.

45R
09-15-2011, 3:58 PM
What caliber are you asking about? :)

Kestryll
09-15-2011, 4:11 PM
The dogpining crap ends now, the next post that is NOT answering the OP's question get's someone banned.

Are we clear?

ianS
09-15-2011, 5:09 PM
HST or Ranger?

I only use HST and Speer GoldDot on both my HD and CCW handguns. I have seen and read multiple tests, as well as actual shootings (local PD), where Winchester Rangers, in various calibers and weights, have failed to expand when fired through heavy/thick clothing. In addition, Ranger ammo is harder to find and more expensive.

DocGKR over at another forum seems to think pretty highly of Rangers based on his findings including actual shootings.

So, in your opinion HST and Gold Dots don't have the same rate of failure (to expand) based on actual shootings?

Do you know if the LAPD still use Winchester Rangers?

Sturnovik
09-15-2011, 5:13 PM
They use them in Norcal still but different departments. I recommend Rangers, decent quality and such. I'm sure Federal puts out a good round as well, used a few of there .40's but we still dont know what caliber the op wants?

Massan
09-15-2011, 5:24 PM
Maybe a more google-savvy person can look up ballistics gel testing for both rounds.

Kodemonkey
09-15-2011, 5:42 PM
I believe they both perform well, I have both and shot both and can't seem to see an accuracy difference.

I choose the Ranger ammo because that's what LA Sheriff carry and that's where I live. If a DA ever wants to to try the "you were shooting deadly hollowpoints" crud I can cite that its what the boys in tan carry.

JeremyS
09-15-2011, 5:47 PM
Maybe a more google-savvy person can look up ballistics gel testing for both rounds.

Follow the link I posted above. There is A LOT of very good information in the documents and the videos.


BUT... the OP asks only about accuracy. Ballistic gel testing and everything else is off topic in this thread.... There is no question in this thread about which is a better round for anything beyond accuracy...

Maddog5150
09-15-2011, 5:50 PM
HST or Ranger?

I only use HST and Speer GoldDot on both my HD and CCW handguns. I have seen and read multiple tests, as well as actual shootings (local PD), where Winchester Rangers, in various calibers and weights, have failed to expand when fired through heavy/thick clothing. In addition, Ranger ammo is harder to find and more expensive.

I have for gold dot. I just moved so I have no idea where it is but when I find it, I'll scan it and send it to you. Basically, a kid (18) with no drugs cept for TRACE amounts of marijuana got into a gun fight with several officer. This kid was shot multiple times including in the throat with a 40 caliber gold dot. The kid was finally taken down when metro showed up with 70-something grain 5.56 and then had to fight with him on the ground before he expired. Just size of the fight in the dog. I also had a copy of the autopsy photos including the x-raty and sure enough, there was a 40 cal sitting in his throat un expanded. At the end of the report it went on to tell about how the FBI lied to protect the ammunition. I'm just speculating but maybe it was to save monies from the contract? :shrug:

SIGSHOOTR
09-16-2011, 4:07 AM
Do you know if the LAPD still use Winchester Rangers?

Yes-- my buddy at Metro Division says a number of his guys (including D platoon) use SXT and T-Series. He can't seem to recall any issues.

Plisk
09-16-2011, 6:53 AM
I've had a pretty in depth discussion with some PD Armorer's between the 2 rounds. His department issues HSTs and I personally have always preferred and recommended T-Series.

Without going into a lot of in-depth detail that I would probably make an error somewhere along the line. Here's what it boils down to. They BOTH tested very very close to each other, but the HST did edge out ever so slightly. They both performed well enough to be perfectly acceptable for any department use. Bottom line, they BOTH work extremely well and either will serve you well. It's preference and availability.

Don't forget, you need to test to see which your weapon performs the best with.

DaveFJ80
09-16-2011, 7:37 AM
Go and try a box of your own stuff and tell us.
Its the best thing you will ever do and you will have no doubt in your mind if that time to use them ever comes.

I've tested 9mm 147 gr Ranger T's, HST, and Gold Dot on some phone books with clothing over them from my Glock 19. The Rangers had the deepest penetration, but not more than the others. HST had the largest opening and I liked the performance the best as they were consistant. I keep my Glock loaded with HST mainly because I of the expansion tests I did and because I found some at a really good price awhile back.

I've also tested .45 ACP 230gr in Ranger T's, HST +P, and Gold Dot on phone books. The main issue I had was that the Ranger's didn't like to feed well in my old Kimber TLE. The HST and Gold Dots fed perfectly. I'll test them again on my new TRP when I have some time.



As far as accuracy goes which one do You like?

When I shot the phone books, I was shooting them at about 7 yards away. I've also put around 100 rounds of each through my Glock at the indoor range (around 15 yards) to test the reliability.

To be honest, I didn't notice any one being better or worse in accuracy. But what I did notice was the +P had slightly more kick to it, and it also created more muzzle flash in the low lit indoor range (something to test & consider for your HD ammo). But as for accuracy, they all shot and landed onto the target the same.

IMO, don't worry about accuracy between different ammo rounds, but rather how it feeds in your gun, how it shoots out of your gun, and how the bullets perform on your targets.

M. D. Van Norman
09-16-2011, 8:23 AM
Uh, oh! We made Kestryll mad again. :eek:

In all seriousness, any premium cartridge is going to be more accurate than the average shooter.

http://www.dancinggiant.com/images/firearms/hs1911a1-20081031-6.jpg

In the hands of a moderately capable shooter, Winchester SXTs are quite accurate at defensive ranges.

http://www.dancinggiant.com/images/firearms/m1927target-83800-20110212.jpg

Of course, bargain Winchester USA cartridges are pretty capable at those distances too … and at a fraction of the price. “Fliers” and misses are almost always the shooter’s fault.

http://www.dancinggiant.com/images/firearms/k9target-20050403.jpg

Though I’m phasing out my stock of Federal Hydra-Shoks in favor of Winchester SXTs, Speer Gold Dots, and Federal HSTs, they were also up to the task in terms of accuracy. :D

Shoot whatever you and your gun like best.

lawaia
09-16-2011, 8:35 AM
.................any premium cartridge is going to be more accurate than the average shooter.
......

Shoot whatever you and your gun like best.

This. End of thread.:)

Shenaniguns
09-16-2011, 10:18 AM
Uh, oh! We made Kestryll mad again. :eek:

In all seriousness, any premium cartridge is going to be more accurate than the average shooter.



In the hands of a moderately capable shooter, Winchester SXTs are quite accurate at defensive ranges.



Of course, bargain Winchester USA cartridges are pretty capable at those distances too … and at a fraction of the price. “Fliers” and misses are almost always the shooter’s fault.



Though I’m phasing out my stock of Federal Hydra-Shoks in favor of Winchester SXTs, Speer Gold Dots, and Federal HSTs, they were also up to the task in terms of accuracy. :D

Shoot whatever you and your gun like best.



As you move to 25 yards/75 feet which is the standard to measure handguns by, you will see a noticeable difference in ammo. Just in my more recent testing, I had 124gr +P Ranger-T produce a 3" group standing unsupported while 147gr Ranger-T produce closer to 5" at the same distance unsupported. Since they're both proven rounds, I carry the 124gr +P Ranger since my gun prefers it.

lawaia
09-16-2011, 10:19 AM
As you move to 25 yards/75 feet which is the standard to measure handguns by, you will see a noticeable difference in ammo. Just in my more recent testing, I had 124gr +P Ranger-T produce a 3" group standing unsupported while 147gr Ranger-T produce closer to 5" at the same distance unsupported. Since they're both proven rounds, I carry the 124gr +P Ranger since my gun prefers it.

Standing unsupported allows for human error. No definitive results there. Sorry.

Shenaniguns
09-16-2011, 10:23 AM
Standing unsupported allows for human error. No definitive results there. Sorry.


You're correct that I could be more consistent benched but I shot these results all in one session 4 separate times each round.

So a 2" larger group with the 147gr is significant IMO and verifies what I read that most M&P 9mm's don't like slow factory 147gr ammo.




.

daybreak
09-16-2011, 10:26 AM
While I have no scientific evidence to back this up, I'm confident that there is no practical difference in accuracy between most factory defense ammo, especially lines like ranger, hst, gold dots etc. There are just many many other variables that affect accuracy more in pistols than defense ammo selection.

I could not help being sarcastic.

Shenaniguns
09-16-2011, 10:30 AM
While I have no scientific evidence to back this up, I'm confident that there is no practical difference in accuracy between most factory defense ammo, especially lines like ranger, hst, gold dots etc. There are just many many other variables that affect accuracy more in pistols than defense ammo selection.

I could not help being sarcastic.



And I disagree as one weight/loading may group better or worse in the same family. YMMV





.

zfields
09-16-2011, 11:17 AM
I hate agreeing with you Shenaniguns,

Different guns can very much like different weights better. But trying them in a rest will be the best way to prove it.

I know from a bag rest, my CZ much prefers 124g over 115s, freehand I couldnt tell the difference, since Im a shaky SOB.

Shenaniguns
09-16-2011, 11:21 AM
I hate you agree with me too :D




.

zfields
09-16-2011, 11:22 AM
I hate you agree with me too :D




.

Im sold on the M&P ergos still...just need to dump the trigger! Buds has a good sale going on the longslide, getting hard to resist.

Shenaniguns
09-16-2011, 11:25 AM
Im sold on the M&P ergos still...just need to dump the trigger! Buds has a good sale going on the longslide, getting hard to resist.


The trigger is an easy fix, you have your choice of a great carry/duty trigger, lighter version of that trigger and a 1911-like trigger thanks to Apex Tactical Specialties.

daybreak
09-16-2011, 11:26 AM
And I disagree as one weight/loading may group better or worse in the same family. YMMV
.

I meant different brands of similar weight/loading.

jak77
09-16-2011, 11:35 AM
DocGKR over at another forum seems to think pretty highly of Rangers based on his findings including actual shootings.

So, in your opinion HST and Gold Dots don't have the same rate of failure (to expand) based on actual shootings?

Do you know if the LAPD still use Winchester Rangers?

Yes, I believe they still use the Rangers

zfields
09-16-2011, 11:35 AM
The trigger is an easy fix, you have your choice of a great carry/duty trigger, lighter version of that trigger and a 1911-like trigger thanks to Apex Tactical Specialties.

Its the hinge I dont like. Ive seen the new kit from Apex which changes it up, but havent looked into it since it first got put up with non finished parts.

Shenaniguns
09-16-2011, 11:36 AM
I meant different brands of similar weight/loading.


Of course there is an obvious difference between them as well.



.

Shenaniguns
09-16-2011, 11:45 AM
Its the hinge I dont like. Ive seen the new kit from Apex which changes it up, but havent looked into it since it first got put up with non finished parts.


There will be a Glock like trigger made for the carry packages in the future.

daybreak
09-16-2011, 1:04 PM
Of course there is an obvious difference between them as well.



.

Sure but is there a practical difference in accuracy so much so that it's a deciding factor?

Shenaniguns
09-16-2011, 1:11 PM
Sure but is there a practical difference in accuracy so much so that it's a deciding factor?


You won't know until you test it yourself. In my example above I feel much more comfortable carrying the more accurate round that shoots reliably as my accuracy under serious stress will be much worse. I prefer to have some margin for error.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/


"Based on this and years of experience I have concluded that a service pistol should be capable of head shots at 25 yds and a service carbine should be capable of the same at 100 yds – basically 5 inch groups. However there is a catch; I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that. That means in order to achieve my standard of head shots (5 inch groups) at a given distance the weapon/ammo combination needs to be capable of at least 2.5 inch groups. I personally measure that accuracy standard with 10 shot groups. Many quality service pistols and carbines with good ammo will achieve this but there are many other factors involved such as sights and trigger pull characteristics"