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thefinger
01-29-2007, 10:01 PM
Hey guys. I'm in a bit of a pickle here, but hopefully you guys can help me out. Heres the situation...

I'm a college student, originally from Sacramento. However, I study for the better part of the year in St. Louis, MO. I was at home, in Sacramento, over the Christmas holiday, and I talked my dad into purchasing an M1 Garand from CMP for me. I had him buy it under his name because I am still 5 months short of being 21 years old and I was informed by CMP that they would not ship to anyone under 21. I know that he can give ownership to me without involving an FFL since the gun is over 50 years old, but I'm not quite sure how to get it out here to St. Louis so I can clean it up and shoot it. I'd rather not wait till May to see my rifle, but I'm not familiar with the rules for shipping rifles. Is there any way for my dad to ship the rifle to me, or am I out of luck?

-stu

Aluisious
01-29-2007, 10:11 PM
Check the USPS page. I'm pretty sure they're happy to handle rifles provided you follow some rules.

Aluisious
01-29-2007, 10:11 PM
PS can your Dad get me a Garand too? I'm not a citizen yet :(

:p

Mssr. Eleganté
01-29-2007, 10:21 PM
Is there any way for my dad to ship the rifle to me, or am I out of luck?

What is your state of residence?

If you are a resident of MO then your father will have to ship the rifle to an FFL Dealer in MO who can then transfer the rifle to you.

thefinger
01-29-2007, 10:54 PM
What is your state of residence?

If you are a resident of MO then your father will have to ship the rifle to an FFL Dealer in MO who can then transfer the rifle to you.


Well, my residency is a little confusing. California still considers me a resident of the state. I can vote absentee in CA elections and get in-state tuition at universities and the like. However, Missouri also considers me a legal resident since I am a student at a university in Missouri(I actually vote here in major elections). So really, I am considered a legal resident by both states.

Since I am a CA resident can my father mail the rifle straight to me? That would be awesome! (Althought FFL transfer can be had for only 20 bucks in the St. Louis area..... I love free states.)

Mssr. Eleganté
01-29-2007, 11:30 PM
Federal law allows you to ship your own firearms from yourself to yourself in another state. It doesn't really say somebody else can ship your firearms to you in another state, but some people do this anyway and say the person shipping the firearm for them is acting as their agent. Since ownership of the firearm isn't being transfered maybe this is within the spirit of the law.

But since the rifle belongs to your dad right now you might be pushing the limits of the law if he shipped it to you while you were residing in another state. Your strange residency status kind of messes things up.

I'd just pay a local FFL the $20 to make sure you are 100% legal on this transfer.

The CMP web site says you only have to be 18 years old. Did they really say you had to be 21 when you talked to them? I know the UPS and FedEx "adult signature" service requires you to be 21, but it seems like the CMP could ship to an 18 year old as long as you had somebody at least 21 years old there to sign for the package.

GI-M1
01-29-2007, 11:40 PM
On a related question, if I live in California, and I want to ship my M1A rifle (with no evil features....flash hidder, etc..), out of state to Washington to have a gunsmith work on it, do I need to have any portion of the transaction (either shipping up to or back from) performed by an FFL? I don't believe I do, since I am not transfering ownership and it is being returned directly back to me.

TIA

Whitesmoke
01-29-2007, 11:45 PM
On a related question, if I live in California, and I want to ship my M1A rifle (with no evil features....flash hidder, etc..), out of state to Washington to have a gunsmith work on it, do I need to have any portion of the transaction (either shipping up to or back from) performed by an FFL? I don't believe I do, since I am not transfering ownership and it is being returned directly back to me.

TIA

Not as long as the gunsmith you are shipping to has an FFL. If he doesn't have a FFL...you can't send it directly to him. Almost all gunsmiths have FFL's though......

hoffmang
01-29-2007, 11:56 PM
Ok, let me clarify for the OP.

1. He is a resident of both states. ATF shows clearly in the CFR that a college student can and does have residency in both states.

I suggest reading the two FAQs from the ATF on shipping.
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b9

-Gene

Mssr. Eleganté
01-30-2007, 5:59 AM
Ok, let me clarify for the OP.

1. He is a resident of both states. ATF shows clearly in the CFR that a college student can and does have residency in both states.

I suggest reading the two FAQs from the ATF on shipping.
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b9

The CFR says you can be a resident of two states, but not at the exact same time. While you are living at your second residence in another state you are a resident of only that state.

27CFR § 478.11 Meaning of terms.

...State of residence.

...Example 2. 'A' maintains a home in State 'X' and a home in State 'Y'. 'A' resides in State 'X' except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State 'Y' for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that 'A' actually resides in State 'X', 'A' is a resident of State 'X', and during the time that 'A' actually resides in State 'Y', 'A' is a resident of State 'Y'.

jemaddux
01-30-2007, 7:02 AM
Ok, let me clarify for the OP.

1. He is a resident of both states. ATF shows clearly in the CFR that a college student can and does have residency in both states.

I suggest reading the two FAQs from the ATF on shipping.
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b9

-Gene


One thing to remember is that ATF rules conflict with USPS rules. Say for gunsmithing, you can send your firearm to a gunsmith for work and then it can be sent back to you according to ATF. USPS states ALL firearms have to be sent to a FFL no matter what. Fed Ex states all hand guns HAVE to be sent next day and ATF stated the same thing. USPS does not offer a true next day service so they will ship hand guns 2 - 3 business day. So you really have to look at each service, UPS is just different all the way around.

SemiAutoSam
01-30-2007, 7:15 AM
Forgive me for stating the obvious but this item is over 50 years old right its a C & R isn't it exempt from these kind of moronic rules ?

So if "thefinger" is a part time resident of this state his father could transfer it to him directly (and even if he isn't a resident of California since its a C & R cant his father transfer it to him directly anyhow ?)

and then he can either take it (Declared unloaded) in checked baggage or ship it to himself to his address in His state of residence

thefinger
01-30-2007, 10:22 AM
If I decide to have my dad ship it I'll just go the safe route and have it delivered to an FFL nearby for 20 bucks. It seems like a bit of a hassle, so maybe I'll just push up the date for my AR15 purchase to keep me busy.... hehe :)

thanks for all the information, as always.

ghost
01-30-2007, 4:26 PM
how do you apply for a ffl?i was thinking of starting a business soon that why.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-30-2007, 6:58 PM
Forgive me for stating the obvious but this item is over 50 years old right its a C & R isn't it exempt from these kind of moronic rules?

Not in this case since thefinger is currently residing in another state. Federal law requires firearms transfers between two residents of different states to go through an FFL. If the father had the rifle back when thefinger was staying in California he could have used either California's "50 year old C&R long gun" exemption or California's "family" exemption to transfer the rifle to thefinger. Then thefinger could have shipped the rifle to himself in Missouri or taken it with him on the plane. But since the father didn't get the rifle until after thefinger had already moved back to Missouri, the transfer would now be between two residents of different states and thus require the services of an FFL.

So if "thefinger" is a part time resident of this state his father could transfer it to him directly

Go back and read the section of the Code of Federal Regulations posted earlier. ATF only considers you a resident of a state while you are actually residing there. So thefinger is not currently a California resident according to ATF.

and even if he isn't a resident of California since its a C & R cant his father transfer it to him directly anyhow

Nope. The transfer of C&R firearms between residents of different states still requires an FFL. You might be thinking of "Antiques".

and then he can either take it (Declared unloaded) in checked baggage or ship it to himself to his address in His state of residence

Only if he had acquired if from his father while he was still residing in California. But his dad didn't have the rifle from the CMP yet when thefinger was visiting for Christmas.