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DonP
09-10-2011, 5:15 PM
Hello,

Would a .357 Magnum hollow point travel through an average body from 15ft?

I have a S&W model 686 loaded with Black Talon Hollow points for home protection. Where I live, the houses are relatively close together. My neighbor's side sliding glass door is probably about 40' from my side entry door.

Thank you,

rojocorsa
09-10-2011, 5:19 PM
HP bullets are designed to to enlarge and dump all their energy into a given medium. That means that the bullet should not go through.


A full size rifle round, OTOH...

sk8804
09-10-2011, 5:45 PM
in my opinion any magnum cartridge should be "expected" to exit a human.

DonP
09-10-2011, 5:48 PM
Rojocorsa,
That was my thinking when I bought it 20 years ago. But I've never looked into any hard data on whether a 357 would stay internal to a body. The internet wasn't what it is now.

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 5:50 PM
if you're concerned with over penetration you might want to consider .38 rounds instead of .357

DonP
09-10-2011, 5:52 PM
in my opinion any magnum cartridge should be "expected" to exit a human.

That's what I'm thinking now. So I'm looking for some hard data. Or at minimum, a strong consensus from an educated group.

Oceanbob
09-10-2011, 5:53 PM
I have shot lots of Black Talon...and the .357 round is heavy and expands well. It also travels fast and has more kick than most.

At $3 a round these days, Black Talon is too expensive to practice with.

Good stuff.

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 5:56 PM
i think its best to avoid pulling the trigger at all costs. my solution is this. an AK with a bayonet. i figure the sight of my rifle would be enough to scare off a home invader without having to fire rounds.

besides, no one in their right mind is gonna rush you if you've got that in your hands.

DonP
09-10-2011, 5:56 PM
.38 may be a good idea. But would a .38 be as lethal?

DonP
09-10-2011, 5:58 PM
I have shot lots of Black Talon...and the .357 round is heavy and expands well. It also travels fast and has more kick than most.

At $3 a round these days, Black Talon is too expensive to practice with.

Good stuff.

And as dumb as I am, I shot off a whole box because I didn't want to stop and buy cheap ammo for fun time. Wasn't that expensive when I bought it though

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 6:00 PM
.38 has more than enough power to deter a home invader.

personally though, i think it would be better to discuss this topic in the context of self defense rather than lethality.

we have the right to stop a threat, not necessarily end the life of the attacker.

DonP
09-10-2011, 6:00 PM
i think its best to avoid pulling the trigger at all costs. my solution is this. an AK with a bayonet. i figure the sight of my rifle would be enough to scare off a home invader without having to fire rounds.

besides, no one in their right mind is gonna rush you if you've got that in your hands.

Yes, but then there's still one bad person out there who may hurt someone else next time.

gatesbox
09-10-2011, 6:01 PM
Here is some good penetration data on .357. Looks like best case scenario of JHP could penetrate 24" or more.....

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm

gatesbox
09-10-2011, 6:02 PM
Double post edited..

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 6:02 PM
Yes, but then there's still one bad person out there who may hurt someone else next time.

thats true, there are always two sides to the argument. generally speaking though, i think its best to avoid doing things which could potentially get you sent to prison.

ZombieTactics
09-10-2011, 6:04 PM
HP bullets are designed to to enlarge and dump all their energy into a given medium. That means that the bullet should not go through. ... Without insult or snarkyness, this is simply an incorrect notion which needs to be corrected.

HP rounds are not designed to "dump energy", but rather to expand and create larger wound channels. This might result in all energy being expended, but it is not (and never has been) the intention of the design. The "perfect" round would expand fully and penetrate completely, and then drop immediately to the ground. No such perfect round exists, nor could it given all the possible variables involved.

A typical .357mag HP round has more than enough kinetic energy to expand fully and penetrate completely, at the 5-yard (15-feet) range suggested by the OP.

Cali-Shooter
09-10-2011, 6:06 PM
.38 may be a good idea. But would a .38 be as lethal?

If the right type of ammo is used, .38 spl would be great for SD/HD use. I've got Remington .38 special +P 125 gr. Hollow Soft point rounds loaded in my nightstand .357 magnum.

DonP
09-10-2011, 6:14 PM
.38 has more than enough power to deter a home invader.

personally though, i think it would be better to discuss this topic in the context of self defense rather than lethality.

we have the right to stop a threat, not necessarily end the life of the attacker.

I won't argue with that. ,,,

DonP
09-10-2011, 6:17 PM
Without insult or snarkyness, this is simply an incorrect notion which needs to be corrected.

HP rounds are not designed to "dump energy", but rather to expand and create larger wound channels. This might result in all energy being expended, but it is not (and never has been) the intention of the design. The "perfect" round would expand fully and penetrate completely, and then drop immediately to the ground. No such perfect round exists, nor could it given all the possible variables involved.

A typical .357mag HP round has more than enough kinetic energy to expand fully and penetrate completely, at the 5-yard (15-feet) range suggested by the OP.

True, some jackets are clearly designed to create sharp edges as the peal back. (ex. Black Talon)

kayaker
09-10-2011, 6:17 PM
What weight bullet are we talking about? A heavier bullet should penetrate further than a light bullet. A .357 Mag with 125 grain (light weight) bullet is less likely to go through than a 158 or 180 grain.

Oceanbob
09-10-2011, 6:22 PM
And as dumb as I am, I shot off a whole box because I didn't want to stop and buy cheap ammo for fun time. Wasn't that expensive when I bought it though

Ouch...hey Don...First of all I want to welcome you to CAL GUNS..!..a nice bunch of people here.

Second...I was the same way. Back in the day I shot a bunch of Black Talon at the range. Who knew it would be out of production and get rare and valuable..?...I did get the hint when I heard it was being discontinued back in 1993 ? (or 1994?) and bought a bunch of it.

(same thing with Magazines..we were all buying hi caps like maniacs; glad I did that now)

Keep in mind that you have resist shooting someone who is trying to enter your house. You must use all remedies to avoid shooting here in California.
You shoot only to stop the attack, not kill the perp.

Be well
Bob

Oceanbob
09-10-2011, 6:23 PM
What weight bullet are we talking about? A heavier bullet should penetrate further than a light bullet. A .357 Mag with 125 grain (light weight) bullet is less likely to go through than a 158 or 180 grain.

.357 Black Talons are 180 grain.

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 6:26 PM
I won't argue with that. ,,,

very true. the whole thing is kind of a can of worms so to speak.

maybe the answer is to move to texas and get a saiga 12

lol

JAGGUY
09-10-2011, 6:26 PM
Penetration isn't the only concern with using a magnum handgun for HD...
Here is something you can do. Try to find an abandoned building somewhere and cap off that 357 in there in the dark with no hearing protection, like it would be if you confronted a perp in your home.
You will find you will be blinded and instantly deaf from the muzzle blast. You will be helpless for far too long and if the perp wasn't hit he may recover from the blast quicker than you...a bad situation all around.

There are far better HD choices than any magnum handgun.
Just my opinion.

DonP
09-10-2011, 6:29 PM
Thanks for the welcome Ocean Bob.

I'm starting to see a pattern in what discussions are appropriate here. All good. Thanks.

DonP
09-10-2011, 6:34 PM
Jagguy, I've fired it once w/o eyes and ears protection. Don't want to do that again

PRCABR4Christ
09-10-2011, 6:35 PM
What weight bullet are we talking about? A heavier bullet should penetrate further than a light bullet. A .357 Mag with 125 grain (light weight) bullet is less likely to go through than a 158 or 180 grain.

usually heavier bullets travel at lower velocities, therefore will penetrate less...

As far as will a .357 go through and through...yes, if a 9mm JHP will go through and through, a .357, which is near the same diameter of a 9mm, and traveling much slower (around 400fps) you should still expect to go through.

If you want my opinion, use the heaviest slowest ammunition you have (which is probably your 180gr Black Talons).

kayaker
09-10-2011, 8:04 PM
"usually heavier bullets travel at lower velocities, therefore will penetrate less.".

Go do your homework. Lighter bullets are faster but lose their energy faster. That's why Garret Slegehammer loads for big bears are heavy for caliber. Standard .44 mag is 240 grains. Garret loads are 310 grains.

DonP
09-10-2011, 8:10 PM
very true. the whole thing is kind of a can of worms so to speak.

maybe the answer is to move to texas and get a saiga 12

lol

Funny, because I'm out in North Carolina right now for work. Guy I work with is from CA and says he'll never go back. Showed me his newly purchased AR-15. He keeps telling me to move out here. If it weren't for family ties I absolutely would move out of state.

I went shooting last week here in NC. When the guy at the range took my CDL he said he felt sorry for me, LOL.

DonP
09-10-2011, 8:10 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. So much for a consensus,,,

2nd Shot
09-10-2011, 8:21 PM
If you're set on .357, the answer may be more power and speed, not less. Look up the well proven 125 grain .357 magnum loading... Well respected and field proven.

You have 2 (or any combination thereof) ways to get ____ kinetic energy to the target: Heave a heavy bullet at a lower velocity, or fling a lighter bullet at higher velocity. Big and slow it out - all of the very best penetrators in any caliber are heavy for caliber, right? So that leaves you with the lightest, fastest extremes. Even to the point of fragmentation (Glaser safety slugs come to mind as an extreme example).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum Have a look for yourself - you'll notice that with the exception of Quik-Shok fragmenting ammo, the .357 loadings that produce the least amount of penetration AND largest permanent cavity in gelatin are the 125 grain loads. The key is using the energy in a way most useful to you for the circumstances.

Just one thing to remember: Don't miss - even a shotgun full of birdshot will easily punch through at least 1 interior wall with ease, and probably more.

PRCABR4Christ
09-10-2011, 8:22 PM
"usually heavier bullets travel at lower velocities, therefore will penetrate less.".

Go do your homework. Lighter bullets are faster but lose their energy faster. That's why Garret Slegehammer loads for big bears are heavy for caliber. Standard .44 mag is 240 grains. Garret loads are 310 grains.

Done my homework...I agree they lose energy faster, that's pure physics, but if you lose 20% of your velocity, the heavier JHP projectile will penetrate less than the lighter FMJ...if it was me I would go to a heavier slower round rather than a lighter faster round, YMMV

kayaker
09-10-2011, 8:37 PM
Done my homework...I agree they lose energy faster, that's pure physics, but if you lose 20% of your velocity, the heavier JHP projectile will penetrate less than the lighter FMJ...if it was me I would go to a heavier slower round rather than a lighter faster round, YMMV
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::

Samtech79
09-10-2011, 8:40 PM
Just my off topic two cents... A shotgun with a few bean bags is ideal for HD. If they are still willing to attack after three or four bean bags... let them try some buckshot.
I wouldn't want to unleash any .357 inside my house. Muzzle blast, children, dead intruders, etc... too much hassle, too much head and heart ache.

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 8:57 PM
if you're concerned with over penetration you might want to consider .38 rounds instead of .357
Overpenetration is not the issue.

You WILL NOT hit your target with every shot.
5 shot revolver, you'll be lucky to get one hit under duress.
That's 4 shots hitting a wall unimpeded.
JHP tend to "plug" with drywall and act like FMJ.

Basic gun safety... know your backstop and what's behind it.
You can't safely plan to shoot willy-nilly around your house in the event of a threat.
You are not trained to "clear" your house.

Determine in which direction(s) you can fire with minimal risk of a bullet harming another person's property or body.
Plan your home defense strategy around keeping yourself and your intruder in positions that force him to be in that place in order to get to you.

In my case, it's the bottom of the stairs.
I can "safely" fire through my living room/dining room front to back. NOT side to side or back to front.
Upstairs, I can "safely" fire again, front to back, and front to side on about a 45 degree angle.
My only "safe" back to front direction is down the stairs. Missed or overpenetrated rounds would impact the front door, or the concrete outside of the front door (since I'm shooting at 45 degrees down).
Ricochet could be a problem, but that's a risk that I have to accept.

So my defensive position will be at the top of the stairs.
Anything downstairs is not worth dying or killing over.
To get to me or my wife, the threat must move into the "Fatal Funnel" of the stairwell and traverse that 20ft with no cover, while I have plenty of cover at the top of the stairs, and access to all of my guns and ammo without moving across the top of the stairs.

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 9:00 PM
besides, no one in their right mind is gonna rush you if you've got that in your hands.
Tweakers seeing you in between them and items they can fence for their next fix are not in their right mind.

Anyone in their right mind would not attack a cop.
A good friend was thrown through the windshield of his patrol car by a perp.

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 9:02 PM
What weight bullet are we talking about? A heavier bullet should penetrate further than a light bullet. A .357 Mag with 125 grain (light weight) bullet is less likely to go through than a 158 or 180 grain.
I don't think I've ever seen a commercial .357 JHP load lighter than 140gr... most are 158.

125gr is .38spl territory.

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 9:08 PM
Just my off topic two cents... A shotgun with a few bean bags is ideal for HD. If they are still willing to attack after three or four bean bags... let them try some buckshot.
I wouldn't want to unleash any .357 inside my house. Muzzle blast, children, dead intruders, etc... too much hassle, too much head and heart ache.
This has been discussed until faces turned blue.

We'll just leave it at: "Dumbest comment of the week on Calguns"


Bean bags and rubber bullets are NOT appropriate for civilian personal/home defense. You are opening yourself up to major liability exposure, not to mention the high probability that you will be KILLED by an armed intruder while you are ****ing around clearing out 4 beanbags and loading the 00 buck that you should have used in the first place.

Cali-Shooter
09-10-2011, 9:09 PM
Tweakers seeing you in between them and items they can fence for their next fix are not in their right mind.

Anyone in their right mind would not attack a cop.
A good friend was thrown through the windshield of his patrol car by a perp.

Ouch, hopefully he recovered from that attack and that that perp's been brought to justice.

DonP
09-10-2011, 9:11 PM
I'm thinking a single round would be most realistic in most a non-TV/movie confrontations. With the recoil from my gun, I do not see myself firing off multiple shots in rapid concession.

Stopping the intruder at the door seems best to me, in my layout. Protecting my wife, kids and self are highest priorities, for me anyway.

HowardW56
09-10-2011, 9:12 PM
if you're concerned with over penetration you might want to consider .38 rounds instead of .357


:iagree:

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 9:14 PM
Ouch, hopefully he recovered from that attack and that that perp's been brought to justice.
I would assume that the perp was subjected to some "summary justice" prior to being brought before a judge.
My friend had only been on the force for 5 years or so. Spent the next 20 driving a desk taking statements from rape victims.
Finally got out from behind the desk and into Vice and then Narc his last 5 years before he retired.

Retired on full disability because of his knees.

Oceanbob
09-10-2011, 9:14 PM
Another off road idea...

.357SIG

It usually runs at 125 grain and is speedy at around 1300 FPS.

US Air Marshalls use them because they don't travel far once they impact a target.

I bought a barrel of another Cal Gunner recently and I was surprised how easy they feed (bottle neck, don't really need a ramp..haha) and how zippy they are.

Be well,
Bob

elSquid
09-10-2011, 9:15 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a commercial .357 JHP load lighter than 140gr... most are 158.

125gr is .38spl territory.

???

125gr 357 Magnum was long considered "the load"; when folks talk in awe of the 357's 'stopping power' [1], that was usually the weight that they were referring to. 1400++ fps makes for a smartly moving round.

It was the issued load for CHP and other agencies way back when...

-- Michael

[1] Cough, cough.

den888
09-10-2011, 9:16 PM
I would be very concerned about over penetration in your case. If you had to discharge your weapon, you could possibly injure someone else.

PRCABR4Christ
09-10-2011, 9:16 PM
I'm thinking a single round would be most realistic in most a non-TV/movie confrontations. With the recoil from my gun, I do not see myself firing off multiple shots in rapid concession.

Stopping the intruder at the door seems best to me, in my layout. Protecting my wife, kids and self are highest priorities, for me anyway.

Most self defense shootings are over in 4 rounds or less, but I wouldn't count on 1, if the recoil in your gun is more than you can control I suggest more trigger time or a lighter recoil setup...always shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot well, for some people that's a .380, for some it's a .44mag (not that I'm suggesting utilizing .44 for SD/HD)

Ron-Solo
09-10-2011, 9:18 PM
Time to use up your black talons. They haven't made them in over ten years so you are running the risk of deterioration at this point. Shoot them for fun, but get updated ammo for home defense. The current equivalent of the black talon is the Winchester Ranger T Series. Better ballistics.

I seen a lot of people shot with a variety of loads. Rarely does the round exit, especially with handguns. Concentrate on a good JHP load and be able to hit what you are aiming at. I've shot two suspects with Federal 110 gr JHP when our department still carried revolvers. Both were 1 shot stops, the rounds hit just off the belly button both times, and each time the suspects went down and didn't get back up to play anymore. Thanks to some amazing work by paramedics and ER doctors, both suspects survived to go to prison.

Our department issued black talons years ago. We rotate ammo every six months in our duty weapons. Weather, oils and solvents cause ammo to deteriorate over time. Keep your ammo fresh for home defense, and use stuff you can afford to practice with.

If someone gave me black talons, they would go in my range ammo, not my self defense stuff. All of my SD guns are loaded with the Winchester Ranger SX-T rounds, except my .380 LCP, which is loaded with Remington Golden Sabre loads.

Ron-Solo
09-10-2011, 9:20 PM
This has been discussed until faces turned blue.

We'll just leave it at: "Dumbest comment of the week on Calguns"


Bean bags and rubber bullets are NOT appropriate for civilian personal/home defense. You are opening yourself up to major liability exposure, not to mention the high probability that you will be KILLED by an armed intruder while you are ****ing around clearing out 4 beanbags and loading the 00 buck that you should have used in the first place.

I agree with Cokebottle on this one 100%.

I've used bean bag rounds, and they are not real effective on people under influence of drugs. Just tends to piss them off.

nrakid88
09-10-2011, 9:22 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=626828

That is the round that i would count on. If you get a 125 at 1400, this might be 1500-1600, and at that velocity I am willing to bet that it may fragment, and be a very shallow wound.

I plan on a 357 wheel gun, lever gun combo. I want to push those 110 grain 357 magnums with lil gun powder (or something better) to like 2500 fps and I would be amazed if it did not become a frag-tastic hurtling metallic destroyer. Will be fun for varmints, and hopefully enough for any violent intruders.

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 9:23 PM
I'm thinking a single round would be most realistic in most a non-TV/movie confrontations. With the recoil from my gun, I do not see myself firing off multiple shots in rapid concession.
Other way around.

Single round only works in movies.

Reality?

You can stop a threat in only a few ways:

1 - Psychological... "OMG! This guy isn't afraid to kill me!"
2 - CNS hit... brain, spine.
3 - Bleed out... even a direct heart/aorta shot can take minutes to stop the threat
4 - Disabling via shattered pelvis/femur.

The most powerful handgun round on the planet is not going to throw someone back through a wall... or even knock them down like a punch.


Okay, so you're asleep and you year a window break.
Your adrenalin is pumped, your hands are shaking, you have no fine motor skills, your heart is racing 150, your senses are heightened.

If you are grouping 2" at the range, under those conditions, you'll be doing well to group within 2ft. You're going to use all 5 rounds and likely reload.

Take some self defense classes from a good instructor.

Oceanbob
09-10-2011, 9:28 PM
Other way around.

Single round only works in movies.

Reality?

You can stop a threat in only a few ways:

1 - Psychological... "OMG! This guy isn't afraid to kill me!"
2 - CNS hit... brain, spine.
3 - Bleed out... even a direct heart/aorta shot can take minutes to stop the threat
4 - Disabling via shattered pelvis/femur.

The most powerful handgun round on the planet is not going to throw someone back through a wall... or even knock them down like a punch.


Okay, so you're asleep and you year a window break.
Your adrenalin is pumped, your hands are shaking, you have no fine motor skills, your heart is racing 150, your senses are heightened.

If you are grouping 2" at the range, under those conditions, you'll be doing well to group within 2ft. You're going to use all 5 rounds and likely reload.

Take some self defense classes from a good instructor.

THIS..^^^^

great advice. :D

nrakid88
09-10-2011, 9:35 PM
You're going to use all 5 rounds and likely reload.

Take some self defense classes from a good instructor.

OR! Get a modern gun, like the Glock 17, with a 33 round magazine (and leave California if you have to get that 33 round mag, you will be happy you did)

Or, get a shotgun.

jearl1022
09-10-2011, 9:35 PM
I did some unscientific testing at the range last week - I soaked three (yellow-page size) phone books in water for half an hour, letting the water really soak in. Then I lined them up in a cardboard box. Each phone book was about 4" thick when swollen with water. I fired several different rounds into them. ALL the 357 magnum JHP rounds passed right through the first two phone books, and stopped midway into the third phone book. All the rounds mushroomed properly, as they were designed to do.

Paradiddle
09-10-2011, 9:36 PM
OR! Get a modern gun, like the Glock 17, with a 33 round magazine (and leave California if you have to get that 33 round mag, you will be happy you did)

Or, get a shotgun.

A revolver is far more realiable then any semi-auto and if you can't get it done in 6 you are probably going to be killed. We aren't fighting staged battles in our homes - and if you are then you need a long gun.

DonP
09-10-2011, 9:40 PM
,,,,,,,,,,

DonP
09-10-2011, 9:50 PM
Time to use up your black talons. They haven't made them in over ten years so you are running the risk of deterioration at this point. ,,,,snip

I seen a lot of people shot with a variety of loads. Rarely does the round exit, especially with handguns. ,,,snip.

I thought ammo was good for decades if stored a nice dry place? I'll have to research this.

You being a cop and having first hand knowledge of people being shot carries a lot of weight.

Thanks,

DonP
09-10-2011, 9:53 PM
Here is some good penetration data on .357. Looks like best case scenario of JHP could penetrate 24" or more.....

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm

Great info. Thanks.

Samtech79
09-10-2011, 10:00 PM
This has been discussed until faces turned blue.

We'll just leave it at: "Dumbest comment of the week on Calguns"


Bean bags and rubber bullets are NOT appropriate for civilian personal/home defense. You are opening yourself up to major liability exposure, not to mention the high probability that you will be KILLED by an armed intruder while you are ****ing around clearing out 4 beanbags and loading the 00 buck that you should have used in the first place.

Just let me know how that 15 to life sentence serves you for killing your intruder. Right or wrong, you're most likely going to prison if they die. Bodies are pretty soft, even a wound to the thigh or upper arm can prove fatal.
Do a little training and have the decency to show a little respect.

DonP
09-10-2011, 10:03 PM
Most self defense shootings are over in 4 rounds or less, but I wouldn't count on 1, if the recoil in your gun is more than you can control I suggest more trigger time or a lighter recoil setup...always shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot well, for some people that's a .380, for some it's a .44mag (not that I'm suggesting utilizing .44 for SD/HD)

Agreed. At the range I can shoot doubles fairly tight. 3rd and 4th in rapid concession, not so much.

But if someone has a gun on me, I don't see myself standing still long enough to let off even a double tap. Even hit, the bad guy may still fire off a few rounds, I wouldn't want to be wherever he's aiming. But that's just me. To each their own.

DonP
09-10-2011, 10:07 PM
Just let me know how that 15 to life sentence serves you for killing your intruder. Right or wrong, you're most likely going to prison if they die. Bodies are pretty soft, even a wound to the thigh or upper arm can prove fatal.
Do a little training and have the decency to show a little respect.

First priority is to protect the family and self. And you probably won't go to prison. But his family will likely sue you.

Oceanbob
09-10-2011, 10:07 PM
I thought ammo was good for decades if stored a nice dry place? I'll have to research this.

You being a cop and having first hand knowledge of people being shot carries a lot of weight.

Thanks,

Ammo is good for at least 50 years and up. As long as it is dry.

I have no problem carrying my GLOCK 29 with Black Talon from 1993.

I've been shooting 9MM cased ammo from 1955. M1 Garand Ammo (30.06) from 1946. A bunch of stuff from the 1970s...all run fine.

I think Police Departments have internal guidelines and budget money for ammo. They want fresh stuff...can't blame them really.

Be well, Bob

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 10:08 PM
Just let me know how that 15 to life sentence serves you for killing your intruder. Right or wrong, you're most likely going to prison if they die. Bodies are pretty soft, even a wound to the thigh or upper arm can prove fatal.
Do a little training and have the decency to show a little respect.
If the shooting is justified, you aren't going to be doing 15 to life.

If it isn't justified, you'll be doing time for attempted murder even with the less lethal ammunition.
Bean bags and rubber bullets can still kill.

Ron-Solo
09-10-2011, 10:54 PM
Just let me know how that 15 to life sentence serves you for killing your intruder. Right or wrong, you're most likely going to prison if they die. Bodies are pretty soft, even a wound to the thigh or upper arm can prove fatal.
Do a little training and have the decency to show a little respect.

Quit spreading BS. I handled many shootings by homeowners, only one resulted in an arrest, and that was because there was absolutely no justification for the shooting.


I thought ammo was good for decades if stored a nice dry place? I'll have to research this.

You being a cop and having first hand knowledge of people being shot carries a lot of weight.

Thanks,


If stored properly, it will last for decades. Carried daily, subjected to the elements, gun oils, perspiration, etc can be hard on ammo. That is why LE rotates ammo being carried for duty use.

That is why my SD guns always have current ammo in them. Will a ten year old black talon go boom? More than likely, 99.999999% of the time yes. Why push it?

Always have enough SD Ammo to practice with it also, especially if carrying a .357 load. Personally, I like a hot .38 sp load in a .357 revolver for reliability, controllability, and knock down potential.

Cali-Shooter
09-10-2011, 11:09 PM
Quit spreading BS. I handled many shootings by homeowners, only one resulted in an arrest, and that was because there was absolutely no justification for the shooting.

Great to hear these stories firsthand. I know we live in a gun-hating "ban" state, but I'm sick to death of all these pre-emptive TFH stories and paranoia about LEO's oppressing law abiding citizens who are gun owners. That's not the reality out there, the lame-stream media only publishes the negative stories about bad incidents with LEOs/Citizens. As if that happens in ALL cases even here in CA.

Hoot951
09-10-2011, 11:28 PM
If your worried about penetration why not get a shotgun and and load it with birdshots.

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 11:32 PM
If your worried about penetration why not get a shotgun and and load it with birdshots.
Because if someone comes through my kitchen window, it is most likely not a bird.

Birdshot is not reliably effective. Someone heavily clothed? It's not going to penetrate the skin far enough to cause any serious damage... it's just going to piss them off.

Yet it can still penetrate a wall.


Know your backstop and what is behind it.
If you can't safely shoot an AK47, you can't safely shoot anything.

zfields
09-10-2011, 11:33 PM
Another off road idea...

.357SIG

It usually runs at 125 grain and is speedy at around 1300 FPS.

US Air Marshalls use them because they don't travel far once they impact a target.

I bought a barrel of another Cal Gunner recently and I was surprised how easy they feed (bottle neck, don't really need a ramp..haha) and how zippy they are.

Be well,
Bob

Just wish it was easier to find brass. Id love to play with that round.

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 11:40 PM
Overpenetration is not the issue.


i believe the original question was aimed at penetration power of .357

i mean after all, the title of the thread is ".357 magnum - would it pass through?"

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 11:43 PM
Tweakers seeing you in between them and items they can fence for their next fix are not in their right mind.

Anyone in their right mind would not attack a cop.
A good friend was thrown through the windshield of his patrol car by a perp.

true, but even in that case, an AK with a bayonet still has an intimidation factor over other types of firearms

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 11:45 PM
i believe the original question was aimed at penetration power of .357

i mean after all, the title of the thread is ".357 magnum - would it pass through?"
But the logic behind the question is "would the round pose a danger to my neighbor after hitting an intruder"

That answer would be... "Probably not"

15 yards, through a human, and retain enough energy to injure someone standing directly behind the target? Probably.
15 yards, through a human, through a wall/door, across 40ft, through a glass door, and retain enough energy to injure?
Not likely.

But a miss going another 40ft through a wall or class door?
Absolutely.

I'm more worried about my missed shots than what happens to a shot after passing through it's target.

Cokebottle
09-10-2011, 11:47 PM
true, but even in that case, an AK with a bayonet still has an intimidation factor over other types of firearms
I dunno...

Personally, "in my right mind", I'm not going up against anyone with anything that even LOOKS like a gun ;)

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 11:49 PM
thats true as well, and comes into consideration. personally though, my stance on home defense is simple

the absolute last resort is pulling the trigger. id rather just scare the guy off with my AK. hypothetically if that happened, you wouldnt have to worry about stray bullets injuring or killing your neighbors, and you also wouldnt have to worry about being put on trial.

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 11:50 PM
I dunno...

Personally, "in my right mind", I'm not going up against anyone with anything that even LOOKS like a gun ;)

fair enough. lets just hope non of us are put in the position of having to draw a weapon on a home invader

cali_armz
09-10-2011, 11:57 PM
Funny, because I'm out in North Carolina right now for work. Guy I work with is from CA and says he'll never go back. Showed me his newly purchased AR-15. He keeps telling me to move out here. If it weren't for family ties I absolutely would move out of state.

I went shooting last week here in NC. When the guy at the range took my CDL he said he felt sorry for me, LOL.

yea thats completely understandable man, im in the same position, families here, so moving to another state is less of an option. man, some states let their residents own incredibly exotic firearms. full auto, sbr/sbs, DD... and no bullet buttons. i hate bullet buttons, but what can you do? its either that or nothing :(

El Gato
09-11-2011, 12:01 AM
We used to use the Talon round to put down pigs at the "farm" ...
way way too much penetration....

Federal 125 gr. Hp 357 mag round it the proven solution to your problem...
even the Win. 110 they sell at walmart would way outperform the talon in your social environment....and would probably be my goto round in your world...

cheap enough to practice with and limited penetration on actual carbon based life forms....

kurac
09-11-2011, 12:32 AM
If I were worried about over penetration, I would go with a full power 125gr semi jacketed hollow point or even the Glaser Safety slugs.

The lighter faster projectiles really come apart when they hit something and the semi jacketed kind are not affected as much when the hollow point gets clogged.

nrakid88
09-11-2011, 12:45 AM
yea thats completely understandable man, im in the same position, families here, so moving to another state is less of an option. man, some states let their residents own incredibly exotic firearms. full auto, sbr/sbs, DD... and no bullet buttons. i hate bullet buttons, but what can you do? its either that or nothing :(

I have family in California... But honestly, I love my Woman first, my gun second, and my family third. It will suck to leave them behind, but I can't live in a state that oppresses my love, and if they can, then they can deal without me.

I am leaving this **** hole as soon as I can. I love the weather. But I hate the air polution, light polution, gang members, over population, ANTI-GUN Politics, traffic, etc...

cali_armz
09-11-2011, 12:51 AM
I have family in California... But honestly, I love my Woman first, my gun second, and my family third. It will suck to leave them behind, but I can't live in a state that oppresses my love, and if they can, then they can deal without me.

I am leaving this **** hole as soon as I can. I love the weather. But I hate the air polution, light polution, gang members, over population, ANTI-GUN Politics, traffic, etc...

yea i completely agree. its absurd how bad the anti gun mentality is here. see though, i feel like i have an obligation to stick around for my parents as they get older. they arent at the point of needing me to be there yet, but it makes me think of my grandparents and how lost they would be if my parents werent around to help them.

scarville
09-11-2011, 9:04 AM
Would a .357 Magnum hollow point travel through an average body from 15ft?
Possibly.

I used to hunt feral pig with a 357 carbine. I used 158 gr soft points loaded to around 1800 fps and, if my memory serves, the bullets exited the animal less than half the time. Now, pigs are not people and hunting is not self defense but my experience using bullets moving 40% to 50% faster than a handgun will launch them indicates "over-penetration" in a body is less of a concern than the Internet thinks. Personally, I would be more worried about the bullets that don't hit the target because they will hit something or someone else. Browse the revolver versus autoloader threads and you will read lots of claims that, under stress in a shooting, you will miss four out of five shots. On a relative scale of things to worry about I rank the bullets that go zipping through the neighborhood much higher than bullets that exit the target's body with 5% or 10% of their energy left.

Blitzburgh
09-11-2011, 9:13 AM
We'll just leave it at: "Dumbest comment of the week on Calguns"

I've been told this many many times. I personally keep a pump 12 Guage next to my bed. First 2 rounds are bean bags. Then some 00 buck, and 2 slugs at the end.

Yes, I know I'm putting myself in a lot more danger by not "shooting to kill" first two rounds out. But - There are way to many people out there that might break in and think it's a good idea until hit with a bean bag or two. And maybe not. I might lob two at them then take a baseball hat, or worse, to the head.

But I sure would hate, and I would have a hard time living with myself, if I killed some poor kid that really isn't the "criminal element". I'm willing to take the risk. I on the other hand do not have anyone else living here, no wife or kids to protect. I'm sure it would different if I did.

But as a kid I was quite a hooligan. I broke into a lot of houses just for the heck of it. Raided the Fridge then split. I wasn't a "killa", just a misguided punk kid. Would have really been a drag to take a .357 to the chest because I was looking for free snacks.

Just my humble opinion.

Fastattack
09-11-2011, 9:28 AM
Agree with Cokebottle, while the question is overpenatration, you must also consider what is behind your target if you miss. The OP needs to consider that. Regardless of whether a round does or does not overpenatrate, a miss will go though a glass window if it is behind the target.

Blitzburgh
09-11-2011, 9:37 AM
Here is a website dedicated to penetration tests:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

DonP
09-11-2011, 9:47 AM
Agree with Cokebottle, while the question is overpenatration, you must also consider what is behind your target if you miss. The OP needs to consider that. Regardless of whether a round does or does not overpenatrate, a miss will go though a glass window if it is behind the target.

There are many factors to consider. And one of them is, will the round go through the target.

My number one concern is the safety of my wife and kids. Should I feel that my family is in immediate danger, I am not waiting for the threat to move in front of an ideal backstop. Many conditions will determine how/when/if I take the shot.

JTROKS
09-11-2011, 10:24 AM
I'm betting if you Use 223 rounds 53 grain Vmax loads there won't be any exit wound as long as the hits are in the mid torso area. If you insist on shooting 357 magnum loads use 110 grain JHP loads if you're worried about over penetration.

2nd Shot
09-11-2011, 10:26 AM
Forget the beanbags and the birdshot. If the BG isn't doing something that warrants being shot on the spot (shooting, or getting ready to shoot/stab/bludgeon/chainsaw, etc. yourself or others), you shouldn't fire anything at them unless you want to end up in prison. If they are, you would do best to assume that they won't feel misplaced BULLETS, much less beanbags at painball gun velocity. How many people have survived a firefight only to discover that they've been shot afterwards? There's a lot of video of people being shot (victims and BG's alike) that reacted like they've been hit with a BB gun.

As for birdshot. It will easily blow a ragged hole through at least one wall. Buckshot will go through multiple walls. Any gun will, even a .22LR derringer. The only reasonable approach, as has been said before is to only fire in directions where the bullet is going to stop in an acceptable place, and even force the BG to come to this location if need be.

It doesn't matter what you're shooting. You're going to miss, and it doesn't matter which caliber you choose since it's going to go through walls like Bernie Madoff went through peoples investments anyways.

jwb28
09-11-2011, 2:48 PM
I didn't read all three pages, so maybe this has been brought up, but. If I remember right the .357 Black Talon was intended as more of a hunting round. Thus the 180gr. Way to much penetration for household use.
If it was me I'd use either 38 sp. 125gr plus p, or 135gr gold dot .357.

HowardW56
09-11-2011, 3:50 PM
I didn't read all three pages, so maybe this has been brought up, but. If I remember right the .357 Black Talon was intended as more of a hunting round. Thus the 180gr. Way to much penetration for household use.
If it was me I'd use either 38 sp. 125gr plus p, or 135gr gold dot .357.

I wouldn't use .357 in my home at all... It is an excellent caliber and can deliver a great deal of energy to the target, however in case of a miss or less than center mass hit, it may go through a 2 or 3 structures before it stops...