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View Full Version : SF Bay Area: first MagMagnet bust [in combo w/10+rd mag importation]


bwiese
09-07-2011, 11:09 AM
This comes from a trusted source.

The general information is going to be correct, with perchance some minor detail deviations from two recountings of it.

A dude was popped and booked into a Bay Area jail this week for importation of over-10-rd magazines and AW possession.

Appears CA DOJ agents observed the man buying 10+rd mags in Reno. They then got a search warrant for the dude' home.

[... unclear if the search warrant was generated/executed after arrest or if they waited until dude returned home...]

The individual was found to have an OLL AR with BulletButton and an attached MagMagnet device. Other configurable elements
of the gun in question are unclear (and there is a limited but unlikely chance they could possibly be relevant ).

This is the first MagMagnet bust I know of and I'd expect more.

While the mag issue is a separate matter, there's a chance the individual may well have some claim against MagMagnet and/or
its salesmen due to representations of general legality [instead of very specific limited legal uses with general illegality].

Will try to find out more.

sighere
09-07-2011, 11:12 AM
I guess Big Brother is watching at the gun shows!

proclone1
09-07-2011, 11:15 AM
You'd think CALIFORNIA doj agents would have better things to do then stake out guys in nevada buying 10+rd magazines. OH THE HUMANITY

Barbarossa
09-07-2011, 11:15 AM
Ouch, but hopefully the beginning of the end of Mag-Magnet

Havoc70
09-07-2011, 11:15 AM
I wonder if he disassembled the magazine into component parts as a rebuild kit and the CA-DOJ still busted him.

bwiese
09-07-2011, 11:21 AM
You'd think CALIFORNIA doj agents would have better things to do then stake out guys buying 10+rd magazines. OH THE HUMANITY

This has been happening for quite some time, as I have warned.

This was apparently NOT a gunshow and likely was a Cabela's/Scheel's etc. purchase - or someone
else rolled as an informant (less likely).

I'd also expect LV and AZ gunshows to have similar activities monitored by LAPD Gun Unit (co-sworn
as US Marshals).

Aside from this matter, REMEMBER THAT EVEN IF YOUR CONDUCT IS 100% LEGAL BUT IS
POLITICO-LEGALLY "Controversial", YOUR AFFAIRS SHOULD BE 100% SQUARED AWAY AT
HOME SINCE DRAMA CAN BE EXTENDED TO THERE...

fredieusa
09-07-2011, 11:22 AM
Hope we get rid of these stupid laws fast so good people are not made into criminals..

Magmagnet is a bad idea for now. Stay away from them people.

bwiese
09-07-2011, 11:22 AM
I wonder if he disassembled the magazine into component parts as a rebuild kit and the CA-DOJ still busted him.

Don't and likely won't know. Probably not, as DOJ is aware of parts kits being sold and has
not raided homes based on that info even though they could probably get that warrant thru.

WatchMan
09-07-2011, 11:23 AM
I wonder if he disassembled the magazine into component parts as a rebuild kit and the CA-DOJ still busted him.

This is the very concerning possibility to me. I know we're still waiting for more facts, but if simply purchasing >10 rd mags out of state is enough for a search warrant of one's CA residence, that stinks. One could very well disassemble them, or perhaps keep them at an out-of-state residence. I hope this isn't what happened.

Cali-Shooter
09-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Don't buy 10+ mags out of state and bring them back HERE...

IPSICK
09-07-2011, 11:31 AM
I really wish people with OLL's were more cognizant of and heeded the AW laws as enforced right now. Saw some things at the range last weekend that were a little disturbing. This included the use of a mag magnet.

Challenges are in the works against the AW laws (see my sig). We just need to be patient and continue to donate to the CGF.

mrdd
09-07-2011, 11:38 AM
I wonder if he disassembled the magazine into component parts as a rebuild kit and the CA-DOJ still busted him.

I hope he was pulled over after reentering the state and found in possession of the assembled magazines he just bought. Then, served a search warrant for his residence.

Just buying something legal out of state should not be considered probable cause to search a residence.

Havoc70
09-07-2011, 11:39 AM
Aside from this matter, REMEMBER THAT EVEN IF YOUR CONDUCT IS 100% LEGAL BUT IS
POLITICO-LEGALLY "Controversial", YOUR AFFAIRS SHOULD BE 100% SQUARED AWAY AT
HOME SINCE DRAMA CAN BE EXTENDED TO THERE...





Makes me glad I'm anal with my receipts. I have receipts dated from 1994 when I bought several 30 rounders for my semi automatic rifle.

bwiese
09-07-2011, 11:40 AM
This is the very concerning possibility to me. I know we're still waiting for more facts, but if simply purchasing >10 rd mags out of state is enough for a search warrant of one's CA residence, that stinks. One could very well disassemble them, or perhaps keep them at an out-of-state residence. I hope this isn't what happened.

I would think there was observance of crossing border with strong supposition the mags were still present and assembled.

DOJ is also smart enough to know that many mag parts are not 'for replacement use' and likely not for 10/30s either.

bwiese
09-07-2011, 11:42 AM
Makes me glad I'm anal with my receipts. I have receipts dated from 1994 when I bought several 30 rounders for my semi automatic rifle.

You don't have to worry.

Even if you came back from NV they wouldn't have had videos or multiwitness observation of hicap purchases. And there is a specific exemption for reentry into state with hicaps.

BigDogatPlay
09-07-2011, 12:00 PM
I guess Big Brother is watching at the gun shows!

Someone thought they weren't? ;)

Magmagnet is a bad idea for now. Stay away from them people.

Mag Magnet was a bad idea right from the gate, IMO. Creating and advertising a product as being legal, which use of instantly creates an arrestable felony on the part of the user is, at best, a bad idea. Continuing to do so after being confronted publicly is just plain arrogant.

No corner of Hades hot enough for that kind of mindset, IMO.

ap3572001
09-07-2011, 12:16 PM
Makes me glad I'm anal with my receipts. I have receipts dated from 1994 when I bought several 30 rounders for my semi automatic rifle.

There no LAW that requires You to show how and when You got the magazines.

orion5457
09-07-2011, 12:23 PM
How does this work...Would not the crime have been committed in the county that he entered from NV for the possession/importation of the normal cap mags? So would he not have to be charged there?

missiondude
09-07-2011, 12:25 PM
I bought one of those mag magnet things for use when I am running a rimfire upper. I lost it and decided to do a featureless build on that rifle/lower... Best decision ever. Love how those mag magnet guys have featureless rifles for their demo at gunshows, yet never mention that in their sales pitch:facepalm:

joe_sun
09-07-2011, 12:37 PM
Talk about a victimless crime....

Gryff
09-07-2011, 12:45 PM
Please post case details when possible. I find it hard to believe that they got a warrant after witnessing a perfectly legal action. Or if they did, that the warrant will hold up in trial.

mag360
09-07-2011, 12:51 PM
and the legacy of injustice continues. Making criminals out of nothing.

1911su16b870
09-07-2011, 12:55 PM
IMO the mag magnet only becomes a liability if the owner of the rifle with BB leaves the magnet attached to the BB.

I've said it before, with Solatacs grip wrap and an ambi safety, fixed stock and compensator installed you are GTG with a defensive rifle.

stix213
09-07-2011, 1:04 PM
:facepalm:

At least take your freaking mag magnet off when not in use, geez. Some people don't think too much. (yes I know that doesn't negate the AW crime, but it wouldn't just be evidence sitting in your safe waiting to be confiscated either).

vmwerks
09-07-2011, 1:15 PM
Break the law pay the price - some people (that I know personally) don't take these rules seriously. I forwarded this post to one of those "friends". He has an unpinned 14.5" barrel and regularly goes shooting with another friend who takes 100rnd drums with them to shoot on BLM land. He wonders why I won't go shooting with him :rolleyes

live2suck
09-07-2011, 1:17 PM
Why was the CA DOJ watching/observing/following him in the first place?

Anchors
09-07-2011, 1:19 PM
Also very curious about how a legal acton produced a warrant.
It wasn't a crine until he hit the border and unless they watched him load them into his trunk and then watched him drive straight to the border, I don't see where they got PC for a traffic stop. Maybe they did do that and he was speeding like many people do on that drive...tagged for more

Merc1138
09-07-2011, 1:20 PM
Why was the CA DOJ watching/observing/following him?

Probably because they saw CA plates at a gun shop/show in Nevada. The DOJ following people back into CA isn't anything new.

SwissFluCase
09-07-2011, 1:21 PM
How did they even know he was from California? Do they sit in the parking lot and look at plates? Are we really paying for agents to do this?

ETA: Just saw the above. Simulposting!

Regards,


SwissFluCase

stix213
09-07-2011, 1:23 PM
How did they even know he was from California? Do they sit in the parking lot and look at plates? Are we really paying for agents to do this?

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Sitting in the parking lot and looking for CA plates is a known previously employed tactic, so not out of the question here until we get more facts. CA state and city budgets don't just waste themselves....

Merc1138
09-07-2011, 1:24 PM
How did they even know he was from California? Do they sit in the parking lot and look at plates? Are we really paying for agents to do this?

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Yes. They watch for CA plates to enter the lot, see who gets in and out of the vehicle, and then watch the car with the CA plates leave. Yeah, your tax dollars are wasted on this crap. It's also why people on calguns have warned for years about doing stuff like this.

BigDogatPlay
09-07-2011, 1:24 PM
How did they even know he was from California? Do they sit in the parking lot and look at plates? Are we really paying for agents to do this?

ETA: Just saw the above. Simulposting!

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Yes... they do. And yes, we are, sadly.

vincewarde
09-07-2011, 1:24 PM
DOJ agents are charged with enforcing the laws - they did not make them and they cannot repeal them. That has to happen in the courts or the legislature - let's fight and win the battle there.

In the mean time if you buy 10+ mags out of state you need to know the law and how to comply with it. Break them down to parts kits for legal use or make 10 round mags out of them.

If you choose to ignore the law, be prepared to pay the price.

Vipersx911
09-07-2011, 1:26 PM
How does this work...Would not the crime have been committed in the county that he entered from NV for the possession/importation of the normal cap mags? So would he not have to be charged there?

Not a lawyer, but importation is enforceable no matter where they crossed. As long as you are in possession of illegally manufactured or illegally imported 10+ capacity magazines than posession of those magazines is not legal. You can be arrested and charged no matter what county you are in.

FastFinger
09-07-2011, 1:28 PM
Or do they ask the seller for a copy of the sales receipt w credit card info?

Lot of questions, it will be interesting to review any additional paperwork on this.

SwissFluCase
09-07-2011, 1:34 PM
DOJ agents are charged with enforcing the laws - they did not make them and they cannot repeal them. That has to happen in the courts or the legislature - let's fight and win the battle there.

In the mean time if you buy 10+ mags out of state you need to know the law and how to comply with it. Break them down to parts kits for legal use or make 10 round mags out of them.

If you choose to ignore the law, be prepared to pay the price.

The law doesn't say we have to spend money watching out of state gun stores. They are stepping up this enforcement on their own initiative. I agree knocking down the law in the courts is the best course of action, but this is ridiculous. This justifies a budget cut.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

nicki
09-07-2011, 1:35 PM
This is bad for the person who was busted, that being said, we need to find out more about the individual, specifically is this an individual who has other issues besides what just happened which would taint them.

We have two issues with the individual.

1. The bust on the AW hinges on the DOJ saying that the mag tool changes the gun from an "attachable mag" to a "detachable mag".

If this was the "ONLY" issue, it could potentially be a "case" to nail AB23 and possibly the original Roberti/Roos bill by saying that those laws selectively ban "common arms" with features that are extremely useful for "self defense".

2. The above 10 round mag bust could happen very easily. If DOJ agents are in the shops, they are probably watching for cars with California license plates.

Another factor, how did he pay, cash or credit card?

Many of the newer cars have GPS tracking devices already.

What we don't know is how many magazines the guy bought? Do he buy a few or did he buy alot?

If he bought alot of magazines, for sake of argument, say 100 magazines, the DOJ will probably say he was some form of a gun runner.

In closing, the "bullet button" or the "non pistol grips" are workarounds on stupid laws that if you do what you want versus follow instructions you can open yourself up to lots of legal problems.

"Bullet button" guns can never have "Above 10 round mags" in Cali.

The only above 10 round mags you should have if any are those that were effectively made before 1994.

Yes, we can have disassembled new mags, but I have a gut feeling many people are not taking them apart.

Nicki

Dirtbiker
09-07-2011, 1:44 PM
We all knew this would happen eventually. Bummer for the guy arrested.

nick
09-07-2011, 1:45 PM
I'm rather curious about the reason for the search warrant. Was it just buying hicap mags? It's not a crime, especially out of state. Is it enough for a search warrant?

Steve1968LS2
09-07-2011, 1:45 PM
I have one of those magnets.. only use it out of state, wouldn't think to put it on in state.

Buying the mags in Reno isn't a problem if he tears them down into kits before coming back to CA.

Sounds like he was stupid twice..

stix213
09-07-2011, 1:47 PM
I'm rather curious about the reason for the search warrant. Was it just buying hicap mags? It's not a crime, especially out of state. Is it enough for a search warrant?

With the guy's already low intelligence evident, I wouldn't be surprised if he just opened his big mouth too much when talking to police. Just my guess of course

nitroxdiver
09-07-2011, 1:56 PM
Thank you Bill for the info and the continuous reminders. I won't go into my political rant, we all feel the same way. ;-)

socal2310
09-07-2011, 1:56 PM
The only above 10 round mags you should have if any are those that were effectively made before 1994.
Nicki

Not true, as has been discussed here before, there is a three year statute of limitations on violations of the P.C. (I am not recommending that anyone circumvent the law in this manner, but there is little doubt that it has happened on numerous occasions). Furthermore, if one found an illegally imported magazine just lying on the ground, you wouldn't even be obligated to turn it in to the police station since the value was under $100 (I would have said that you wouldn't even have turn them into the police if you found 100+ of them since an item that cannot be bought, sold or transported has no monetary value; however, that isn't true since you could either disassemble and sell for parts kits, or sell out of state. In that case you would have to turn them into the police station and theoretically could claim them in 90 days if the real owner didn't step forward - except they would almost certainly find some way to avoid returning them).

Ryan

CCWFacts
09-07-2011, 2:24 PM
Sitting in the parking lot and looking for CA plates is a known previously employed tactic, so not out of the question here until we get more facts. CA state and city budgets don't just waste themselves....

Exactly. They get paid A LOT OF MONEY for those hours, and doing it is totally safe and easy, unlike staying up all night staking out gang houses in Compton.

California DOES NOT have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem and a public worker enrichment and entitlement attitude problem.

bwiese
09-07-2011, 2:35 PM
Why was the CA DOJ watching/observing/following him in the first place?

It's well-known that CA DOJ or its proxies monitor Californians at gunshows who bring contraband back into CA. For awhile they were using Oakland PD recruits (post-POST training etc) at CA gunshows, and may have used these in other such efforts elsewhere.

And there has been some justification for this on a sheer legal basis - contraband is coming into CA via The Idiot Path.

This has been going on several years, despite the protestations of the less informed here that this never happened. Just this April several folks were busted at Truckee for mag acquisition apparently at Big Reno Show.

Also if they didn't bust him at Truckee but instead let him complete his journey home with the contraband that gives a clean enough situation to get a warrant. If asked why they didn't nab him at the border or at Truckee, they can say, "We thought he might be selling them illegally and wanted to continue the investigation.." and that will likely stand up.

OleCuss
09-07-2011, 2:35 PM
.
.
.
I've said it before, with Solatacs grip wrap and an ambi safety, fixed stock and compensator installed you are GTG with a defensive rifle.

Probably a dumb question, but what is a "Solatacs grip wrap"? I can't even find it with a Google search. May be some sort of brain malfunction on my part - but I'm having no luck with this one.

bwiese
09-07-2011, 2:38 PM
Not a lawyer, but importation is enforceable no matter where they crossed. As long as you are in possession of illegally manufactured or illegally imported 10+ capacity magazines than posession of those magazines is not legal. You can be arrested and charged no matter what county you are in.

Correct.

However, do note that you are absolutely FREE to buy over-10rd mags in NV as long as they stay in NV.

You can bring in parts disassembled into CA for replacement or for buildup of permanently-restricted 10/20 or 10/30 mags.

socalocalypse
09-07-2011, 2:40 PM
Thank god california is saved from anotherteaparty terrorist. If it saves 1 child.



Sent from my SCH-R910 using Tapatalk

timdps
09-07-2011, 2:42 PM
Probably a dumb question, but what is a "Solatacs grip wrap"? I can't even find it with a Google search. May be some sort of brain malfunction on my part - but I'm having no luck with this one.

Solar Tactical grip wrap:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Featureless/PTR44a.jpg

stix213
09-07-2011, 2:42 PM
Probably a dumb question, but what is a "Solatacs grip wrap"? I can't even find it with a Google search. May be some sort of brain malfunction on my part - but I'm having no luck with this one.

Solar Tactical Kydex Grip wrap, it creates a little wing behind the pistol grip that prevents you from wrapping your thumb around it. I use one on my converted Saiga 7.62x39 and like it just fine.

http://www.solartactical.com/AR15-AR10_c36.htm

The Exile Machine Hammerhead is another featureless grip choice, and its cool because it allows your thumb to wrap around, though you're up at a hunting rifle style grip angle. I use one on my featureless AR and have no complaints so far.


edit: Oh so slow, timdps beat me to it

Merc1138
09-07-2011, 2:42 PM
Probably a dumb question, but what is a "Solatacs grip wrap"? I can't even find it with a Google search. May be some sort of brain malfunction on my part - but I'm having no luck with this one.

solartactical.

I'm not saying the abbreviation is acceptable(one of the silliest things I've read all day)

bwiese
09-07-2011, 2:44 PM
The only above-10rd mags you should have if any are those that were effectively made before 1994.


Um, the 1994 date is irrelevant given concern about 1994-2000 date ranges went away in 2004 with Fed law sunset. Furthermore, date info is not probative given replacement parts may have new dates that are actually irrelevant

One certainly should NOT (for now) have in CA over-10rd magazines that were acquired/imported/constructed on or after 1 Jan 2000. If a complete 10+ round magazine was possessed by you in CA for even a microsecond before 1/1/2000 and ownership remained yours continually, that particular magazine can reenter California with you regardless of your residency status.



Not true, as has been discussed here before, there is a three year statute of limitations on violations of the P.C. (I am not recommending that anyone circumvent the law in this manner, but there is little doubt that it has happened on numerous occasions).

I can see drama relying on this. And that would require risk of felony incrimination for the 3 year period to have sufficient documentation.
Please don't try this crap.

There will be better ways of completely bypassing CA mag laws into an unenforceable irrelevancy as we clear some items off the CGF calendar.

dantodd
09-07-2011, 2:44 PM
Correct.

However, do note that you are absolutely FREE to buy over-10rd mags in NV as long as they stay in NV.

You can bring in parts disassembled into CA for replacement or for buildup of permanently-restricted 10/20 or 10/30 mags.

Or for storage to be reassembled outside California fo0r out of state use.

live2suck
09-07-2011, 2:48 PM
Ok, thanks, I didn't think they had the legal precedence to perform operations like that out-of-state.

My apologies for the ignorant nature of my question, the last few weeks have been information overload for me. I've just recently started paying more attention to Calguns, and it's a really deep rabbit hole to follow, thanks for the great site. I'll be contributing $$ to the CGF as soon as I can.

OleCuss
09-07-2011, 2:49 PM
Thank you all for the clarification on Solar Tactical. I'm thinking of getting an OLL lower in the near future so I'm paying more attention to recommended furniture.

And yeah, no evil features on it. I've got a RAW for the evil features if I want them.

wikidklown
09-07-2011, 2:53 PM
I really wish people with OLL's were more cognizant of and heeded the AW laws as enforced right now.

+1 on this...

RobG
09-07-2011, 2:57 PM
While the law does suck azz, it is the law (for now). If the guy has an OLL, BB with a Magnet deal, and is traveling out of state to buy hi cap mags, he knew what he was doing. And now, he will pay the price for trying to circumvent the law.

stix213
09-07-2011, 2:58 PM
I can see drama relying on this. And that would require risk of felony incrimination for the 3 year period to have sufficient documentation.
Please don't try this crap.


I agree that relying on this borders on a mental condition, but without direct proof of when/where importation or manufacture, doesn't the fact the 3 year statute of limitations exists provide a significant amount of cover for those in possession of 11+ round mags of questionable origin?

I mean, not only does the state need to prove a violation of PC 12020 occurred, but they also need to prove it occurred within the last 3 years, which I would think is extremely difficult without seeing you purchase them in Reno, or other proof of time/place of the violation.

OleCuss
09-07-2011, 3:06 PM
I agree that relying on this borders on a mental condition, but without direct proof of when/where importation or manufacture, doesn't the fact the 3 year statute of limitations exists provide a significant amount of cover for those in possession of 11+ round mags of questionable origin?

I mean, not only does the state need to prove a violation of PC 12020 occurred, but they also need to prove it occurred within the last 3 years, which I would think is extremely difficult without seeing you purchase them in Reno, or other proof of time/place of the violation.

Right. Unless you do something stupid like buying GTRM's and importing them in front of an LEO (or telling the LEO that you illegally purchased/imported/manufactured them within the last three years) it is going to be a really difficult thing to prosecute and the DA probably won't.

Wherryj
09-07-2011, 3:48 PM
You'd think CALIFORNIA doj agents would have better things to do then stake out guys in nevada buying 10+rd magazines. OH THE HUMANITY

It sure is a good thing that CA doesn't have gangs or other issues involving violent crime.

Wherryj
09-07-2011, 3:59 PM
You don't have to worry.

Even if you came back from NV they wouldn't have had videos or multiwitness observation of hicap purchases. And there is a specific exemption for reentry into state with hicaps.

...not to mention the fact that the burden is on the state to prove when you purchased them. It's one of those pesky things to do with "innocent until proven guilty".

OleCuss
09-07-2011, 4:00 PM
In a half-hearted defense of DOJ? Someone who drives to another state in order to purchase goods in order to illegally import them into California probably is not a fine upstanding citizen and there is a pretty good chance that they do other things to which you and I would object more strongly than their ownership of magazines.

That said, it sure sounds like a junket to me. Send an agent to Reno where they are told to stay in a luxury hotel and go to a gun show for a few hours per day.

I really do think that there are far better ways to spend my tax money.

SJgunguy24
09-07-2011, 4:08 PM
You'd think CALIFORNIA doj agents would have better things to do then stake out guys in nevada buying 10+rd magazines. OH THE HUMANITY

They used to until their whole little drug dealing, brothel keeping, and using illegal warrants to steal crap to sell on e bay operation was shut down. They're a bored bunch aren't they?:rolleyes:

Dreaded Claymore
09-07-2011, 4:13 PM
In a half-hearted defense of DOJ? Someone who drives to another state in order to purchase goods in order to illegally import them into California probably is not a fine upstanding citizen and there is a pretty good chance that they do other things to which you and I would object more strongly than their ownership of magazines.

Agreed. Someone who does this sounds like a shady guy.

That said, it sure sounds like a junket to me. Send an agent to Reno where they are told to stay in a luxury hotel and go to a gun show for a few hours per day.

I really do think that there are far better ways to spend my tax money.

Hopefully he stayed at the Silver Club instead of Circus Circus.

jaymz
09-07-2011, 4:16 PM
It'd be nice if we could get some law enforcement to bust criminals on California's southern border, instead of the eastern one.

chead
09-07-2011, 4:24 PM
Here's the most frustrating part: I have a bunch of mag kits because when you've got a pinned mag you can't even clean or repair it, ever. Parallax will pin a mag from a kit for you, no charge, so if I need one I go by for a pinning. Otherwise they sit in a box, unassembled, in my closet. That is totally reasonable and legal, and yet it's still a "gray area" apparently.

It'd be nice if we could get some law enforcement to bust criminals on California's southern border, instead of the eastern one.

There is no lack of DHS and ICE on the US/MX border, believe me. In fact I get stopped at a CHP/ICE checkpoint on my commute almost daily from SD to LA.

Paul S
09-07-2011, 4:33 PM
Also please keep in mind...in order to have probable cause the surveillance MUST go further than simply observing your car drive into the lot of a Nevada gun store.
You might do that at Cabella's lets say. All you buy is a box of .22 ammo.
I'd bet you a steak dinner nothing happens when you come back to the PRK.

Someone is also surveiling the activities of Californians entering these establishments. The buyer is observed purchasing an evil and illegal standard capacity magazine and then is observed leaving and eventually crossing back into the PRK. At that point...game on. Or..DOJ is quietly using trusted informants.
I would dearly love to see the Probable Cause Declaration for the arrest as well as the affidavit seeking a warrant. That would tell us a lot about HOW the DOJ Stasi are operating. :(

chead
09-07-2011, 4:37 PM
They don't need to arrest everyone, they need to arrest one guy, and wait for a long thread to pop up on Calguns and scare people off. Wait a second..

dantodd
09-07-2011, 4:43 PM
Here's the most frustrating part: I have a bunch of mag kits because when you've got a pinned mag you can't even clean or repair it, ever. Parallax will pin a mag from a kit for you, no charge, so if I need one I go by for a pinning. Otherwise they sit in a box, unassembled, in my closet. That is totally reasonable and legal, and yet it's still a "gray area" apparently.

Not a gray area at all, perfectly legal.

dantodd
09-07-2011, 4:46 PM
They don't need to arrest everyone, they need to arrest one guy, and wait for a long thread to pop up on Calguns and scare people off. Wait a second..

People who are reading this thread already know that assembling a "large capacity" magazine in CA is illegal and that mag magnets are a felony in waiting.

Anyone on CalGuns who is willing to break the law isn't going to be scared off and those whovare law abiding don't really need a warning. Much like all fun laws.

taperxz
09-07-2011, 4:47 PM
This is the perfect example of why i always see Bill Weiss lambaste people here who are searching for the loop hole with a wink and a nod.

Not only are agents at the gun shows but guess what? They also read this forum!!!!

oni.dori
09-07-2011, 4:52 PM
DOJ is also smart enough to know that many mag parts are not 'for replacement use' and likely not for 10/30s either.

That shouldn't matter, since having the PARTS isn't illegal, regardless of what you did or didn't have after January 1, 2000.

Mesa Tactical
09-07-2011, 4:54 PM
They don't need to arrest everyone, they need to arrest one guy, and wait for a long thread to pop up on Calguns and scare people off. Wait a second..

Actually, Calguns members aren't supposed to do this stuff because it's illegal, not because they are afraid of getting caught.

taperxz
09-07-2011, 4:55 PM
That shouldn't matter, since having the PARTS isn't illegal, regardless of what you did or didn't have after January 1, 2000.

No, your right! However the antis and the AG in particular can make your life miserable via defending yourself if they you are not doing the right thing. I guess it all depends on the political environment.

meaty-btz
09-07-2011, 4:57 PM
Why does this make me want to organize 10 to 20 thousand people and FLOOD the gun shows buying high cap magazines and then stopping off right before the border and storing them.

I.E. protesting by overtaxing the surveillance capacity. AKA bankrupt them.

Andy Taylor
09-07-2011, 5:23 PM
In a half-hearted defense of DOJ? Someone who drives to another state in order to purchase goods in order to illegally import them into California probably is not a fine upstanding citizen and there is a pretty good chance that they do other things to which you and I would object more strongly than their ownership of magazines.

That said, it sure sounds like a junket to me. Send an agent to Reno where they are told to stay in a luxury hotel and go to a gun show for a few hours per day.

I really do think that there are far better ways to spend my tax money.



Four or five years ago, I went to the Big Reno Show. I stayed the weekend at a timeshare resort I have. I did note on Thusday evening several ATF agents were checking into the resort. They were in no way trying to hide who they were-black T-shirts with white BATFE lettering and 5.11 tactical pants and accessories.

Ford8N
09-07-2011, 5:37 PM
Talk about a victimless crime....

and the legacy of injustice continues. Making criminals out of nothing.

Just a few years ago it was legal. And it's still perfectly legal on the otherside of an invisible line in the desert.

DOJ agents are charged with enforcing the laws - they did not make them and they cannot repeal them. That has to happen in the courts or the legislature - let's fight and win the battle there..

Those same agents took an oath to support the U.S. Constitution...


If you choose to ignore the law, be prepared to pay the price.

Rosa Parks ignored a law and thank God she did.

chead
09-07-2011, 5:57 PM
Actually, Calguns members aren't supposed to do this stuff because it's illegal, not because they are afraid of getting caught.

Sure, I just mean the CA DOJ doesn't need eyes on everyone.

Not a gray area at all, perfectly legal.

Of course, but you can still be arrested or detained until they figure it out.

1859sharps
09-07-2011, 6:33 PM
The only above 10 round mags you should have if any are those that were effectively made before 1994.

actually I believe the only 100% California legal to own and use in either registered Assault weapons or firearms that would not be AWs simply by using an +10 round mags are mags owned prior to SB 23 becoming law.

The federal law that took affect in 1994 (but has since expired) ONLY banned new manufacture for sale and sale of post 1994 manufactured magazines. Importation of pre 94, sale, trade, use, was all legal of any magazine made prior to 1994.

I believe the Importation of pre 94 mags was cut off eventually, can't remember, but I do recall it being allowed for a while at least.

SwissFluCase
09-07-2011, 6:33 PM
That said, it sure sounds like a junket to me. Send an agent to Reno where they are told to stay in a luxury hotel and go to a gun show for a few hours per day.

I really do think that there are far better ways to spend my tax money.

Maybe it is time for a PRAR for the expense reports.


Regards,


SwissFluCase

Diabolus
09-07-2011, 6:38 PM
Solar Tactical grip wrap:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b44/timdps/Featureless/PTR44a.jpg

Why is there a magazine sticking out of your paddle?

SanPedroShooter
09-07-2011, 6:54 PM
Maybe it is time for a PRAR for the expense reports.


Regards,


SwissFluCase

I would love to see the available documents on this, the search warrant would have the behavior they observed, their probable cause, what they did once they got it etc... right?

If you do a PRAR, can you get things like field agents notes and stuff?

Merc1138
09-07-2011, 7:35 PM
Why is there a magazine sticking out of your paddle?

Uhhh... the magazine is quite clearly in front of the trigger guard.

SwissFluCase
09-07-2011, 7:42 PM
I would love to see the available documents on this, the search warrant would have the behavior they observed, their probable cause, what they did once they got it etc... right?

If you do a PRAR, can you get things like field agents notes and stuff?

That would be under discovery, as it is part of the case.

I want to find out how much money these guys are blowing on this. I'll bet there is a lot of improper spending here. It wouldn't help in court, but it would make for a good scandal.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Arisaka
09-07-2011, 7:53 PM
Er.... I think he was joking, ie the gun looks like a paddle for spanking people. What kind of rifle is it, anyway?

chiselchst
09-07-2011, 7:53 PM
HYPOTHETICALLY:

If the guy purchased a few 10+ mags assembled, in NV. Then disassembled them, in NV prior to entering CA.

Then after re-entering CA, rebuilt the same number of legally acquired mags (owned previously to 2000), be completely legal? Even if done on the side of the road?

My question is, if this was to hypothetically happen, how could LE have reasonable suspicion that this did NOT occur--to obtain a warrant?

ColdDeadHands1
09-07-2011, 7:59 PM
I actually was in Cabelas this weekend staring at the rack of glorious standard capacity magazines thinking to myself how stupid it is that I can't legally own them yet any other regular joe, non-Californian could. I also had the distinct thought cross my mind (thanks Bweise!) that I was being watched... :chris: So, like a subserviant sheep, I hung my head down and sulked away from the rack-o-mags.

Looks like I did the right thing for now, unlike the poor, uninformed SOB who got busted! :mad:

OleCuss
09-07-2011, 8:04 PM
HYPOTHETICALLY:

If the guy purchased a few 10+ mags assembled, in NV. Then disassembled them, in NV prior to entering CA.

Then after re-entering CA, rebuilt the same number of legally acquired mags (owned previously to 2000), be completely legal? Even if done on the side of the road?

My question is, if this was to hypothetically happen, how could LE have reasonable suspicion that this did NOT occur--to obtain a warrant?

Parts is parts. Not illegal to import magazine parts.

Not illegal to rebuild a magazine with legally acquired parts.

I would, however, ensure that the rebuild did not result in a completely new magazine in one step. Legal, however, to rebuild completely except for the follower (as an example). Then you could go back and replace the follower as well. As best I can tell this would be completely legal as you would have a multiply rebuilt and refurbished magazine and not a new or manufactured magazine.

It would be the DA's burden to prove that you did not rebuild your magazine. Since you actually did refurbish there is no chance that he can actually prove that you manufactured a new magazine.

Just remember not to talk to LEO or the DA about it. They can twist your words pretty well if they feel the need to do that.

timdps
09-07-2011, 8:06 PM
Er.... I think he was joking, ie the gun looks like a paddle for spanking people. What kind of rifle is it, anyway?

Its a PTR44 by SSD in Germany. Its a semi-auto replica of the German WWII Sturmgewehr 44 (MP44), the original assault rifle. Uses the repro or original mags and fires the 7.92x33 round.

chiselchst
09-07-2011, 8:09 PM
Parts is parts. Not illegal to import magazine parts.

Not illegal to rebuild a magazine with legally acquired parts.

I would, however, ensure that the rebuild did not result in a completely new magazine in one step. Legal, however, to rebuild completely except for the follower (as an example). Then you could go back and replace the follower as well. As best I can tell this would be completely legal as you would have a multiply rebuilt and refurbished magazine and not a new or manufactured magazine.

It would be the DA's burden to prove that you did not rebuild your magazine. Since you actually did refurbish there is no chance that he can actually prove that you manufactured a new magazine.

Just remember not to talk to LEO or the DA about it. They can twist your words pretty well if they feel the need to do that.

That's how I understood the laws. So I wonder what info they had to obtain the warrant - if it was for normal cap mags. I'm very curious to learn more about this case.

Thanks for the advice. But I would never do this. Never been to a gun show out of state. But I heard it is one HUGE gunshow from co-workers, that aren't even in to guns.

Thanks..

RRangel
09-07-2011, 8:10 PM
It sure is a good thing that CA doesn't have gangs or other issues involving violent crime.

This could go on for pages. Our state is a financial mess, and "public servants" in Sacramento are attempting to legislate the color of BB guns, while state employees are arresting otherwise law abiding citizen for a 10+ magazine, when you would think resources should be treated as scarce. There is no wonder about our state budget, or the ridicule that our state elicits on a national level.

cr250chevy
09-07-2011, 8:12 PM
I really wish people with OLL's were more cognizant of and heeded the AW laws as enforced right now. Saw some things at the range last weekend that were a little disturbing. This included the use of a mag magnet.

It's only time until our ca legal rifles get outlawed with this type of activity going on.

yellowfin
09-07-2011, 8:12 PM
I'd also expect LV and AZ gunshows to have similar activities monitored by LAPD Gun Unit (co-sworn
as US Marshals).

Weren't you guys supposed to have them kicked out of the uniform and rotting in jail by now?

chiselchst
09-07-2011, 8:23 PM
The individual was found to have an OLL AR with BulletButton and an attached MagMagnet device. Other configurable elements
of the gun in question are unclear (and there is a limited but unlikely chance they could possibly be relevant ).

This is the first MagMagnet bust I know of and I'd expect more.

While the mag issue is a separate matter, there's a chance the individual may well have some claim against MagMagnet and/or
its salesmen due to representations of general legality [instead of very specific limited legal uses with general illegality].

Will try to find out more.

Thier website makes some pretty specific claims regarding use for us CA's. Is the follow info deemed "correct"? I don't have any BB guns, so I'm just curious...

When can I use the Mag. Magnet™?
The mag magnet can be installed and left on your firearm if it is;
- a rimfire, most commonly .22LR
- a featureless build with no other evil features such as a pistol grip, flash suppressor, vertical fore grip, flare or grenade launcher, collapsible or folding stock, or thumbhole stock.
- outside the state of California
- an “assault weapon” registered with the CA DOJ.

California State law prohibits certain types of firearms. Semi-automatic, centerfire rifles with a detachable magazine cannot have any one of the following features (PC 12276.1).

thrasherfox
09-07-2011, 8:24 PM
This is not going to affect magmagnet.

I am not a fan nor a cheer leader for them, nor do I endorse their product or in anyway condone its use.

With that said I looked at their web site because it just fricken pisses me off that I have to keep a 10 round magazine in my ar at home for possible self defense and if anything were to happen I will have to fumble for something to release the magazine.

fricken stupid and this law is pissing me off more and more, so I went to their web site to look at it, didnt buy one but sure and the heck thought about it.

They have pretty clear warnings on their web site about not useing it in California, and that it is not approved by the DOJ.

So I honestly dont know why everyone is always given them crap. there is always talk on this forum about buying mag "rebuild" kits, and everyone is always trying to figure out ways around stuff. people on this forum are always looking at the specific definition of certain laws to try and find loop holes.

So I don't know who at that magmagnet place pissed off who, but I really don't see what they are doing is any worse than any of the other things going on here.

Heck who was it that bought some 22 magazine and was doing something about mailing it, trying to figure out some legal loop hole about high cap magazines, that was Gene wasnt it?

As I said, obviously they have been brow beat and bashed enough where they got the point because they clearly without any doubt make sure they emphasize the legalities of it.

I mean seriously, honestly look at their FAQ

http://www.ar-magmagnet.com/faq.html

I think they cover the legalities of it very well.

No different that monster grips, or replaceing a flash suppresor with a muzzle break, they are all stupid fricken laws that need to be done with and thrown out.

too many stupid loop holes around the thing.

And if I lived close to a bordering state like Nevada or Arizona where I went shooting on occasion, the magmagnet would be a nice device to have so you dont have to do any major modificaitons to your rifle to be able to drop mags.


Sorry, just tired of people being on their high horse about this issue when everyone is trying to skirt the legalities of other stuff.


In closing, I dont have one, doubt I will ever purchase one because I live in a commie state and I never leave here to go shooting, but I can see a time and a place for their use.

And I wish they would at least allow us to have this capbility within our homes for protection.


Someone breaks in my house with automatic weapons I would at least like to be able to somewhat defend myself with my semi automatic weapon with 10 round magazines, would be nice to be able to drop a fricken 10 round magazine without fumbling for a fricken bullet while I am being shot at.

negolien
09-07-2011, 8:30 PM
What a tard makes me laugh really because 10-1 says if he had the magnet he had a 30 round clip or something in it too. Obey the laws and have few issues abuse the law and you get :detective: crawling up your arse.

Ubermcoupe
09-07-2011, 8:33 PM
I am still waiting for the specifics about the search warrant. If the guy did buy illegal (as stupid as I believe the law to be) magazines, he committed a crime (and also kinda makes me/us look bad :( ) The idea that buying a magazine legal to use in another state = to a search warrant for a house scares me. I know it is probably not that simple and there must be more to the story so I can only wait for more to be revealed.

livinofframen
09-07-2011, 8:33 PM
Does anyone know if this poor guy has contacted Calguns for legal support yet? Bill? Jason?

From a political/legal standpoint, is this a case that Calguns would consider defending? Or, given the nature of the alleged crimes is it a non-starter? I'm interested to see what happens with this.

RobG
09-07-2011, 8:43 PM
This is the perfect example of why i always see Bill Weiss lambaste people here who are searching for the loop hole with a wink and a nod.

Not only are agents at the gun shows but guess what? They also read this forum!!!!

Damn straight. All the "I found a box of 33 round Glock mags in my garage" BS that floats around CG's gives a look of impropriety to the entire CG community and law abiding gun owners.

Everyone complains about LE not doing their jobs but, when it comes to something like nailing somebody importing 10+ round capacity mags, its LE harrassing some poor fellow. You can't have it both ways.

Cokebottle
09-07-2011, 8:44 PM
Um, the 1994 date is irrelevant given concern about 1994-2000 date ranges went away in 2004 with Fed law sunset. Furthermore, date info is not probative given replacement parts may have new dates that are actually irrelevant
And even from 1994 to 1999, the Federal ban did not prohibit transfer/sale/importation/crossing state lines.

It simply prohibited manufacture of new magazines for civilians.
In 1999, you could still walk into Turners and buy a new-old-stock 15rd mag... or a 15rd mag that is included with a used or consignment gun.

Steyr_223
09-07-2011, 8:45 PM
Forgetting the MagMagnet issues for a sec. What if the Perp is an otherwise fine, outstanding citizen.. Would Calguns Foundation go to his defense and challenge the unenforceable hi cap ban?

If I had a dollar for every young person (18/19/20 year olds) I've seen at the range with new Pmags or 5.45x 39 AK hi caps they "got when they when they were 8" from grandpa or a garage sale, I would be a rich man..

Been to the Grand Sierra show and watched Cali folks buying hi-caps and getting warned to "break them down" by sellers or their friends before going home..Don't believe me? next Reno Big show and goto the large table in the 2nd room manned by young Hispanic or middle eastern kids..The one with small mountains of mags...And watch for a few minutes..

Cokebottle
09-07-2011, 8:48 PM
I.E. protesting by overtaxing the surveillance capacity. AKA bankrupt them us.
Fixed it for you.

OleCuss
09-07-2011, 8:50 PM
OK, the sequence for obtaining the 30 round mags likely goes something like this:

1. Guy has AR-15 type firearm and decides he wants 30 round mags to go with it.

2. Guy realizes he can't buy or import GTRMs (Greater than Ten Round Magazines) because that is illegal in California.

3. Guy figures he can go to Nevada and buy magazines and come back to California with no one the wiser - and he can have his magazines without penalty.

4. Guy shows up in Nevada where a DOJ team has someone in the parking lot identifying vehicles with CA license plates and likely photographs "Guy" getting out of the vehicle and alerts agent inside the facility where GTRMs are being sold. Agent inside the facility witnesses GTRMs being purchased by said "Guy" and likely documents the transaction photographically (could easily have both video and audio).

5. Guy is observed getting into his vehicle with the GTRMs and is likely surveilled entering California sometime later.

6. Search warrant is issued based on evidence obtained in Nevada that "Guy" purchased GTRMs and shortly thereafter entered California creating probable cause in a judge's mind that he was illegally importing GTRMs.

7. Guy is caught with mags and what may have been an illegally configured firearm.

I don't see this as a fight that CGF or anyone else should be involved with. "Guy" had clear intent to violate the law and was stupid. This is not a clean case and not something that anyone is likely to use to establish a favorable precedent - especially since Gene has a far better approach to ensuring we can legally obtain GTRMs in the foreseeable future.

Funding this case would likely just chew up funds which are more productively used elsewhere.

But if they guy's lawyer were to ask for a few nuggets of wisdom it is likely that the CGF types would help out on an occasional and very quiet basis.

I get the impression that our CGF staff/board are far busier than we imagine with stuff we'll never hear about. God bless 'em.

thrasherfox
09-07-2011, 8:52 PM
Does anyone know if this poor guy has contacted Calguns for legal support yet? Bill? Jason?

From a political/legal standpoint, is this a case that Calguns would consider defending? Or, given the nature of the alleged crimes is it a non-starter? I'm interested to see what happens with this.

I dont think this person contacting calguns would do any good.

For one, most of your senior members on this board have made it clear they are totally against the magmagnet.

Second issue is the bottom line, what the guy did was illegal, I dont blame the company, the guy obviously had it configured in an illegal manner, even if Calguns wanted to do something, I dont think they could do much in this case. The guy did something against current standing laws. it "looks" pretty cut and dry.

JMHO

Cokebottle
09-07-2011, 8:54 PM
Does anyone know if this poor guy has contacted Calguns for legal support yet? Bill? Jason?

From a political/legal standpoint, is this a case that Calguns would consider defending? Or, given the nature of the alleged crimes is it a non-starter? I'm interested to see what happens with this.
Too much "color" to the case (assuming the information provided by Bill is accurate).

If he had been arrested for having disassembled magazine parts and no MagMagnet, I would think it would be something they would consider.

But importing magazines AND having a mag-magnet installed in a featured AR?
Yes, he needs a good attorney.
No, I don't want my CGF contributions defending his stupidity.

livinofframen
09-07-2011, 8:57 PM
Too much "color" to the case (assuming the information provided by Bill is accurate).

If he had been arrested for having disassembled magazine parts and no MagMagnet, I would think it would be something they would consider.

But importing magazines AND having a mag-magnet installed in a featured AR?
Yes, he needs a good attorney.
No, I don't want my CGF contributions defending his stupidity.

I agree, I am not advocating for Calguns jumping to this guy's defense, was just interested to see if he had contacted them and if they were going to offer any assistance.

dantodd
09-07-2011, 8:59 PM
Not to mention that the magazine restrictions may not be unconstitutional.

Steyr_223
09-07-2011, 9:00 PM
Wonder if civil rights supporters back in the day thought Rosa Parks was stupid for breaking the law..This is a civil rights issue..

http://rosapark.com/images/image_bus.jpg

Cokebottle
09-07-2011, 9:01 PM
So I don't know who at that magmagnet place pissed off who, but I really don't see what they are doing is any worse than any of the other things going on here.
It's not the company... it's their sales reps.

Their reps are not informing customers of the legalities.
They are presenting it as a "tool"
They are demonstrating it on featureless rifles and will refuse to demo it on a featured build if you give them one.
Supposedly, there was a sales rep at either Ontario or Costa Mesa using a featured build... it is suspected it was rimfire.

The disclaimer on their web site is contained WITHIN the packaging.
It is not visible from outside. If the sales rep does not inform the buyer that it can only be used on rimfire, featureless, or out of state, the buyer doesn't know until he opens the package (assuming he READS the contents... it's not like the thing needs instructions... have you ever read the paper that comes with a lower parts kit?)

The company is doing everything "by the book"... but their sales reps are worse than Amsoil and Slick-50 drones.

OleCuss
09-07-2011, 9:12 PM
Wonder if civil rights supporters back in the day thought Rosa Parks was stupid for breaking the law..This is a civil rights issue..

http://rosapark.com/images/image_bus.jpg

You do realize, of course, that the Rosa Parks incident was very carefully staged? She was a part of an organization which chose her to engage in that particular activity and which was prepared to take full advantage of the incident for the furtherance of their cause.

Do also realize that there were cases analogous to that of Rosa Parks which occurred prior to Rosa's staged incident? They were relatively unknown and ineffective even though they were more genuine.

CGF is another civil rights organization. It also understands that if you want to advance our cause you have to very carefully manage the incidents in which you wish to be involved so that you get the effect you desire. In some cases a favorable incident present itself spontaneously and they can properly manage it to good effect.

But the vast majority of gun-related cases are not going to be sufficiently favorable for the investment of scarce resources. Remember, Gene's own GTRM case is not advancing because the resources are not currently available - and his is a carefully selected situation designed to lock in our access to GTRMs with certainty.

CGF is not a legal defense fund or organization.

trashman
09-07-2011, 9:14 PM
This is gonna be an interesting case - I'm especially interested in the larger arc of things -- i.e., what got the LEO's attention; large quantity buy of mags?

--Neill

Steyr_223
09-07-2011, 9:17 PM
Thanks OleCuss for the thoughtful responses..Your points are valid and I now agree this case is not worth defending and our resources are best used elsewhere..

Jasonaspears
09-07-2011, 9:40 PM
Definitely a good one to be watching for the outcome.

oni.dori
09-07-2011, 10:22 PM
No, your right! However the antis and the AG in particular can make your life miserable via defending yourself if they you are not doing the right thing. I guess it all depends on the political environment.

Very true, as well as the context of what it could be construed you were doing with the part.

OleCuss
09-07-2011, 10:26 PM
This is gonna be an interesting case - I'm especially interested in the larger arc of things -- i.e., what got the LEO's attention; large quantity buy of mags?

--Neill

I'm intensely curious as well, but I would not bet that we will ever know who the alleged offender is or the particulars of the incident.

GrayWolf09
09-07-2011, 11:25 PM
I believe that California's gun laws are stupid, stupid, stupid. I believe they need to be changed legislatively and the sooner the better.

That being said, I was issued an M-16 with a little switch on the side which said auto. I was also issued 30 round magazines. With the switch set to full auto and a 30 round magazine you pulled the trigger once and the contents of the magazine went downrange in a hurry. It was fun the first couple of times especially since I was not paying directly for the ammo. But once you have done it a couple of times it is not so exciting. I would love to buy a magazine with a capacity larger than 10 rounds for my 1968 Ruger 10/22 but there is no way in hell I would risk violating the law or arrest to do so. If I felt the urge to send a few mags of ammo downrange in a hurry I would go to one of the machine gun shoots in Nevada.

I agree it is a civil rights issue and if you want to be the Rosa Parks of the gun movement more power to you. But be prepared to face the consequences.:)

SwissFluCase
09-07-2011, 11:40 PM
Not to mention that the magazine restrictions may not be unconstitutional.

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. I would say that that normal capacity magazines are neither "dangerous & unusual" as I read in Heller. Every soldier is issued them. They have been available for 100 years. They can be found in every police car, on most police officers, in most gun stores in the US, and in quite a few of our own CA collections. Until recently they were freely sold without any kind of restriction whatsoever. Ordinary citizens can and do carry them every day. I would guess that they are probably the most common type of magazine in existence in the US.

Secondly, the penalty for violation is a felony. I find it hard to believe that any resonable argument could be made that a twelve round P229 magazine is so much more dangerous than a ten round version that one goes from legal to felon in two rounds. The ten round limit is arbitrary and capricious. What data, if any was used to come to this number? It isn't a hunting limit. It isn't a "six shooter". It isn't a standard M14 or M16 magazine. Not an M1911, or a Browning Hi-Power either. M1 Carbine was fifteen rounds. Garand was eight. I'm not aware of any *full size* double stack magazine that holds ten rounds, it's either eight or twelve-plus. It is more likely that the legislature just picked a number without doing any research. In the US the standard magazine capacity for martial arms seems to be between eight and twenty rounds for pistols, 30 rounds for rifles, and seven to ten rounds for shotguns. I could see someone try to make an argument based these numbers because magazines above this capacity are "more unusual". Even then, it is still a stretch, and those numbers can and will change as arms evolve, so I'm still not buying it.

What is going to happen when national LTC repricocity is in effect? Will one have to carry a set of magazines to comply with the laws in each locality? Then there are states and localities where simple possesion is a felony. One round over, a felony. As I claimed before, that's harsh, arbitrary, and capricous.

Of course we won't know until SCOTUS rules on the issue, but by their own dicta to me it seems likely that the restrictions will not hold.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

oaklander
09-08-2011, 2:16 AM
Just to clear up some CGF stuff. . .

1) CGF does not take cases where the person was intentionally breaking the law. In fact, if there is even a large amount of "stupid" then it is unlikely that CGF will take case.

2) The easiest way to stay out of jail is to not break laws, and if you do get arrested or questioned for something, simply do not talk.

3) I get a lot of the initial "phone calls," and I can say that being stupid, breaking laws, getting into drama with others, and having them later drop a dime on you - well - that is how people end up in jail.

Folks, PLEASE REMIND YOUR NON-CALGUNS FRIENDS TO STAY LEGAL, THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO AVOID PROBLEMS. I HAVE ENDED FRIENDSHIPS OVER THIS ISSUE.

The only way that I can be an advocate is by staying legal in everything. I know you guys and gals are "legal" - but please resist the temptation to even THINK about playing around with this stuff.

ccmc
09-08-2011, 5:57 AM
I'm not aware of any *full size* double stack magazine that holds ten rounds

Beretta PX4 in .45acp.

NSR500
09-08-2011, 6:13 AM
This has been happening for quite some time, as I have warned.

This was apparently NOT a gunshow and likely was a Cabela's/Scheel's etc. purchase - or someone
else rolled as an informant (less likely).

I'd also expect LV and AZ gunshows to have similar activities monitored by LAPD Gun Unit (co-sworn
as US Marshals).

Aside from this matter, REMEMBER THAT EVEN IF YOUR CONDUCT IS 100% LEGAL BUT IS
POLITICO-LEGALLY "Controversial", YOUR AFFAIRS SHOULD BE 100% SQUARED AWAY AT
HOME SINCE DRAMA CAN BE EXTENDED TO THERE...





Exactly

+1

goodlookin1
09-08-2011, 7:52 AM
This thing stinks to High Heaven...

1) Legal purchase in Nevada
2) Not a gun show (What was CA DOJ doing monitoring a Cabelas?)
3) How did the CA DOJ know he didnt own legal standard cap mags in CA and needed replacements due to worn out old mags?
4) Now 30 Round Mag possession = Probable Cause/Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to get warrant to search for Semi Auto Banned rifle (illegal AW)?
5) How did the CA DOJ know the mags found at his home were not legally owned?

Yes, the guy was an idiot and should have known better. But seriously, it took law enforcement a LOT of guess work and questionable legal moves to get to this point. It seems so improbable to me that they found this guy all on their own. There was either an informant or he got pulled over for speeding or something. I REALLY dont think they are watching license plates at Cabelas and others. There's simply not enough time and money to do that day in, day out. It can happen at gun shows because those only happen every so often.

FastFinger
09-08-2011, 7:56 AM
In a half-hearted defense of DOJ? Someone who drives to another state in order to purchase goods in order to illegally import them into California probably is not a fine upstanding citizen and there is a pretty good chance that they do other things to which you and I would object more strongly than their ownership of magazines.


Agreed. Someone who does this sounds like a shady guy.


This is the perfect example of why i always see Bill Weiss lambaste people here who are searching for the loop hole with a wink and a nod.


Actually, Calguns members aren't supposed to do this stuff because it's illegal, not because they are afraid of getting caught.

Let's not get all full of ourselves here.

It appears that what this guy did was illegal, and while I do not endorse any illegal activity, in this case it's not because what he may have done is "wrong", but because there can be serious consequences if he's found guilty of a crime.

I'm assuming we all agree this law is asinine, likewise $1 spent by the state gov to prosecute anyone suspected of this crime is $1 wasted.

This suspect may or may not know that he was breaking the law, understandable because either by design, error, or arrogance a lot of these laws are written in such a way that they're extremely difficult to decipher. Plenty of well meaning gun owners, police officers, judges, lawyers, district attorneys, and even wise calgunners, are confused and perplexed about the details and technicalities of these laws.

Furthermore you and & I know that more than a small % of people buying "rebuild" kits are, in fact, assembling standard capacity mags on the assumption that should they get caught and charged, if they are just a bit careful the chances of being found guilty are pretty much nil.

So yes, this guy made a mistake, if it was intentional then it probably rises to the level of "stupid," especially considering the upside vs downside equation. But then I think it's safe to say that all of us have done something stupid.

At any rate regardless of this suspects motivations I'm going to assume that he's otherwise an upstanding and responsible California firearm enthusiast who mad a mistake and I sincerely hope he gets out of this mess ASAP, at minimal cost, and with zero long lasting impact on his life.

In light of a recent response, I'll just point out that not that long ago - say less than 6 weeks, I witnessed a CGN member hop on a motorcycle and tool around a bit. Although no illegal standard capacity mags were seen, likewise no helmet was either. Legal? No. Smart? He thought the risk reward ratio was acceptable, I'm not about to judge that stupid or shady.

OleCuss
09-08-2011, 8:30 AM
Hmm. . .

Please note that when I am interested in buying new magazines I first think of going to my local firearms store. Secondarily I consider buying on-line. I do not first consider going to Nevada to go to a Cabela's. . .

The problem is that if I go to my local firearms store they'll tell me that it is illegal for me to buy GTRMs in California and they won't sell them to me. If I go on-line to buy the magazines I'll be told that I can't import the GTRMs so they won't sell me the magazines.

That is the point at which someone stupid or shady starts thinking about buying GTRMs in another state - typically after it has been made abundantly clear that one cannot legally sell or import the GTRMs in/into California.

The probability that the guy was visiting relatives and just happened to drive to Cabela's and pick up some really cheap GTRMs on his way back into California seems pretty durned low.

Now, as a believer in jury nullification, if this case went to a jury and I were on that jury - based on my current information I'd probably refuse to vote guilty and he'd likely get a hung jury. But that is not based on the idea that he did not break Kalifornia law but on the belief that the law is a "donkey".

robcoe
09-08-2011, 8:38 AM
I see 3 questions in this case.

1st: was what he did illegal: almost certainly

2nd: Is he a dumb***: Definitely.

3rd: will he be convicted: with the jury he is likely to get, almost certainly. If I were on it, probably not unless there is a lot more to the story.

OleCuss
09-08-2011, 8:38 AM
BTW, I'd love to see the law challenged. But I suspect that the case I want is much more along the lines of a SFC who has a sterling record and the Army orders a PCS to a Kalifornia post so the guy/gal up and moves here without knowing that they can't bring their BSAR and GTRMs.

This would seem to give a sympathetic and presentable defendant who is eminently qualified to use the firearm and GTRMs - and is, in fact, required to use such firearms by the government.

Not only that, but the inability to bring their firearm and GTRMs could be argued to be a "taking" by the government. It would be even better if the soldier did not have another personal firearm as it would mean that the state government had just violated the soldier's RKBA by taking away their only firearm.

That is the kind of spontaneous case I suspect CGF would be interested in supporting. (But since I don't even have ongoing contact with CGF staff/board members I certainly cannot speak for them.)

goodlookin1
09-08-2011, 8:57 AM
Hmm. . .

Please note that when I am interested in buying new magazines I first think of going to my local firearms store. Secondarily I consider buying on-line. I do not first consider going to Nevada to go to a Cabela's. . .

The problem is that if I go to my local firearms store they'll tell me that it is illegal for me to buy GTRMs in California and they won't sell them to me. If I go on-line to buy the magazines I'll be told that I can't import the GTRMs so they won't sell me the magazines.

That is the point at which someone stupid or shady starts thinking about buying GTRMs in another state - typically after it has been made abundantly clear that one cannot legally sell or import the GTRMs in/into California.

The probability that the guy was visiting relatives and just happened to drive to Cabela's and pick up some really cheap GTRMs on his way back into California seems pretty durned low.

Now, as a believer in jury nullification, if this case went to a jury and I were on that jury - based on my current information I'd probably refuse to vote guilty and he'd likely get a hung jury. But that is not based on the idea that he did not break Kalifornia law but on the belief that the law is a "donkey".

If he were that intent on obtaining new Standard Cap Mags, he would then just purchase a rebuild kit and assemble away.....why risk crossing the border with them? Making a legal purchase in CA and doing the illegal part in secrecy (assembly) is the easiest (and the most quiet) way of obtaining Standard Cap Mags. You're thinking this happened in the early 2000's. It's 2011 and CA is awash in rebuild kits with 20/30 round bodies!

Maybe I am missing the point you are trying to make....in which case, let me apologize in advance.

bwiese
09-08-2011, 8:58 AM
Some notes relative to above comments...


It may not have been Cabela's, that was from a list of possibilities.
Could have been Joe's Gunshop up there for all we know. I know
Cabela's up there is 'on the radar' and there are other big gun stores
as well.
Continuous surveillance of individual would show (to a relative
degree of certainty) the mags likely didn't leave him after purchase
and that he was in continuous possession. That appears good
enough such that when he got home a warrant could be issued.
There may be receipts/transaction information available for the
mags.
The MagMagnet device may NOW have some warnings inside the
package but for a significant period of time it was sold with few
if any warnings (esp when related to a complex issue) and the
sales staff at gunshow booths over more than a year period would
indicate general legality [I queried some folks after they visited the
MagMagnet booths; they thought it was yet another BulletButton-
like workaround and assumed same realm of legality.]

billgato
09-08-2011, 9:00 AM
The amount of manpower and time spent on surveiling any vehicles parking at a Bass Pro Shop or gun show in Vegas must be staggering! How does the surveillance team know which California residents are going in to buy magazines or just fishing gear, beef jerky, or ammunition? Do they send a person to tail each resident while they shop?

Secondly, once a person is observed purchasing a 10+ magazine, do they then follow that person around to see if they are heading back for the California border? What if said person is buying magazines on the first day of a week-long vacation in Vegas?

Do they try to maintain the chain of evidence somehow or call the following units back and say, "I guess he broke the chain of evidence so we can't get him when he returns to California"?

This is mind-boggling the potential expenditure of tax dollars for a few busts.

OleCuss
09-08-2011, 9:50 AM
.
.
.
This is mind-boggling the potential expenditure of tax dollars for a few busts.

I see it as a paid vacation. The agents get to stay at a nice resort, go gambling, take in a few shows, food and drinks on the taxpayer dollar, etc.

So a few hours of work with absolutely no physical risk involved to catch people doing something which actually does no one any harm - and the other 16+ hours they are partying at a resort?

I honestly believe (without good evidence, mind you) that the explanation for this kind of operation is that it's just a great way to kill time at taxpayer expense. I just can't conceive of any other rational reason why our taxpayer dollars are being spent this way rather than going after gangs, slavery (still a problem in California), embezzlement, or any of a host of other things.

I find it infuriating.

dantodd
09-08-2011, 10:04 AM
This thing stinks to High Heaven...

1) Legal purchase in Nevada
2) Not a gun show (What was CA DOJ doing monitoring a Cabelas?)
3) How did the CA DOJ know he didnt own legal standard cap mags in CA and needed replacements due to worn out old mags?
4) Now 30 Round Mag possession = Probable Cause/Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to get warrant to search for Semi Auto Banned rifle (illegal AW)?
5) How did the CA DOJ know the mags found at his home were not legally owned?


Of those questions 4 is the most interesting. Without further evidence, like the guy saying something incredibly stupid at the gun counter, I don't see how purchasing a "large capacity" magazine out of state is PC or RAS for a warrant. Of course he could have also purchased 2 cases of AR magazines which would likely be adequate reason for a warrant.


It is entirely possible that the DoJ were tipped off that someone bought the mags and made their intention to circumvent the law clear. It is also possible that at a big box store like Cabela's they could have had surveillance at the gun counter. When they hear someone saying dumb things and buying "large capacity" magazines the just give the subject's descriptions to agents outside who would then continue the surveillance.

dantodd
09-08-2011, 10:07 AM
Some notes relative to above comments...


The MagMagnet device may NOW have some warnings inside the
package but for a significant period of time it was sold with few
if any warnings (esp when related to a complex issue) and the
sales staff at gunshow booths over more than a year period would
indicate general legality [I queried some folks after they visited the
MagMagnet booths; they thought it was yet another BulletButton-
like workaround and assumed same realm of legality.]


Has anyone reached out to his counsel about this issue? It would sure be good for the community to get this kind of garbage cleared up, maybe we can get a little good out of a bad situation.

Shellshocker66
09-08-2011, 10:08 AM
I don't understand a warrant either for the purchase in Reno. I mean you can purchase them legally there and walk out to your car and disassemble them for return to CA legally. I would think they would stop him at the border if he was being monitored.

Unless there was already a complaint that made him a suspect prior to his trip to Reno? Then I can understand letting him make his way home and then serving a warrant.

BigDogatPlay
09-08-2011, 10:14 AM
But seriously, it took law enforcement a LOT of guess work and questionable legal moves to get to this point. It seems so improbable to me that they found this guy all on their own. There was either an informant or he got pulled over for speeding or something. I REALLY dont think they are watching license plates at Cabelas and others. There's simply not enough time and money to do that day in, day out. It can happen at gun shows because those only happen every so often.

I think your statement here assumes quite a few facts not in evidence. If they were conducting a random surveillance operation and observed the purchase and the transportation of assembled > 10 round capacity mags across the state line, then they have more than enough to move forward as they did.

As to there not being enough time and money to do it day in and day out... who says? If you can divine out BoF's actual budget out of the larger CADoJ spend, and good luck with that, you might be surprised just how many resources there really are. Bear in mind, also, that these types of operations (if that's what it was) would be politically popular in Sacramento and in the media, as well as advance the anti-civil rights agenda.

My guess is that they picked a day to watch location X, and tumbled to the guy. Life, and police work in general, is very much like that.

Some notes relative to above comments...

[LIST=1]
It may not have been Cabela's, that was from a list of possibilities.
Could have been Joe's Gunshop up there for all we know. I know
Cabela's up there is 'on the radar' and there are other big gun stores
as well.

I've heard, anecdotally, that agents will conduct surveillance at Scheels in Sparks as well. And I wouldn't doubt that there are ongoing surveillance ops at many close to the border gun shops from time to time. And, as noted previously, there is hard evidence of rigorous surveillance whenever the Big Reno Show is happening.

But Cabelas, being right up against the state line, so to speak, would make a darned good fishing hole for agents running surveillance / interdiction ops of contraband items coming into California.

Continuous surveillance of individual would show (to a relative
degree of certainty) the mags likely didn't leave him after purchase
and that he was in continuous possession. That appears good
enough such that when he got home a warrant could be issued.

It would almost certainly be enough. If the surveillance was unbroken from place of purchase to one inch inside California and the defendant was never observed disassembling magazines then the initial felony violation is "on view". That would make the affidavit very easy to write, at least in my former LEO opinion.

There may be receipts/transaction information available for the
mags.

If the defendant purchased at a brick and mortar location and used a credit card that transaction can be directly linked time and place. And you can bet that has already been requested / provided from the retailer.

OleCuss
09-08-2011, 10:14 AM
.
.
.
Unless there was already a complaint that made him a suspect prior to his trip to Reno? Then I can understand letting him make his way home and then serving a warrant.

I can understand the speculation on that one. But they only got him on a few firearms-related offenses - and putting on an expensive operation to pick someone up on such charges seems pretty odd.

It's a paid vacation for the agents/LEO.

dantodd
09-08-2011, 10:16 AM
I don't understand a warrant either for the purchase in Reno. I mean you can purchase them legally there and walk out to your car and disassemble them for return to CA legally. I would think they would stop him at the border if he was being monitored.

Unless there was already a complaint that made him a suspect prior to his trip to Reno? Then I can understand letting him make his way home and then serving a warrant.

we have so little information. For all we know he could have been stopped at the border and searched determining the mags were still assembled, but released without arrest. Then after further investigation and a warrant, based on the fact that he brought the mags in assembled, he was arrested at his home.

There are a million ways this could have played out. Heck, he could have simply said something REALLY REALLY stupid at first contact with officers.

supersonic
09-08-2011, 10:22 AM
Break the law pay the price - some people (that I know personally) don't take these rules seriously. I forwarded this post to one of those "friends". He has an unpinned 14.5" barrel and regularly goes shooting with another friend who takes 100rnd drums with them to shoot on BLM land. He wonders why I won't go shooting with him :rolleyes

If I were you (due to the possibility of the OP being true to the letter) I would seriously consider deleting the above post.;)

Gryff
09-08-2011, 10:26 AM
Thank god that the DOJ Bureau of Firearms agents are doing this kind of good work. It's not like they are needed in the Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement since California doesn't have a meth lab problem.

dantodd
09-08-2011, 10:36 AM
If I were you (due to the possibility of the OP being true to the letter) I would seriously consider deleting the above post.;)

I don't understand your post. The post you were replying to in no way suggested the poster was not law abiding and we have no obligation to protect those who are not law abiding. There are some among us who are willing to risk their freedom and our rights for things that are just not worth me losing my rights over. I would like those people to either start following the law or get out of the gun culture. We should work hard to make sure we deserve the reputation as a law abiding group.

negolien
09-08-2011, 10:46 AM
Wonder if civil rights supporters back in the day thought Rosa Parks was stupid for breaking the law..This is a civil rights issue..

http://rosapark.com/images/image_bus.jpg

Yup because this is exactly the same thing as Rosa Parks and The Civil Rights Movement by Blacks :facepalm: How absurd can a statement be ....Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.

dantodd
09-08-2011, 10:49 AM
Yup because this is exactly the same thing as Rosa Parks and The Civil Rights Movement by Blacks :facepalm: How absurd can a statement be ....Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.

I have a difficult time understanding how anyone who has any direct knowledge and experience with firearms can suggest that "10 round[s]... is more than enough... for SD and plinking."

robcoe
09-08-2011, 10:56 AM
Yup because this is exactly the same thing as Rosa Parks and The Civil Rights Movement by Blacks :facepalm: How absurd can a statement be ....Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.

I really hope I missed a [/sarcasm] somewhere in that post.

RobG
09-08-2011, 11:00 AM
I can understand the speculation on that one. But they only got him on a few firearms-related offenses - and putting on an expensive operation to pick someone up on such charges seems pretty odd.

It's a paid vacation for the agents/LEO.

Not necessarily. Reno is a short 90 minute drive. Hell, they could make the drive on a daily basis if so inclined.

The DOJ could have gotten tips that CA buyers are buying up hi cap mags from the NV dealers as well. Lets not forget that Commiefornia isn't exactly loved due to it's firearms laws.

bwiese
09-08-2011, 11:00 AM
Has anyone reached out to his counsel about this issue? It would sure be good for the community to get this kind of garbage cleared up, maybe we can get a little good out of a bad situation.


We know the case 'exists' but we do not know the details of the exact party accused. Charging documents and databases are often a pig's breakfast of info and if there were other charges (say, non-gun) glued on besides mag and AW stuff the could possibly be the lead-in charge and the other charges are difficult to search for. [Depends on locale etc.]

We'll see.

OleCuss
09-08-2011, 11:14 AM
.
.
. a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.

Interesting thing is that when I was in the Army and they gave us weapons for self-defense (I was with a medical platoon and they gave us no offensive weapons) our M4's came with 30 round magazines. The military seems to think that self defense may require GTRMs - and after seeing how poorly most people shoot in a threat condition I tend to agree.

For plinking, however, I admit to preferring 10 round magazines. But if I want to use one of my 30 rounders I believe I should be able to do so (and fortunately I can legally do that with my RAW).

furyous68
09-08-2011, 11:28 AM
I'm not aware of any *full size* double stack magazine

Glock 21... got 5 of them

sharpie613
09-08-2011, 12:12 PM
...and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.

Hey guys, what we said earlier about DOJ/Brady/LCAV folks on the board, I did some research and have determined that such a thing could never happen.

trashman
09-08-2011, 12:37 PM
...a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking.

What, are you some kind of homicidal maniac? Why do you need 10 rounds? Why do you need magazines?

Single shot guns are all anybody needs for self-defense or "plinking".

[rolls eyes],
--Neill

goodlookin1
09-08-2011, 12:46 PM
I think your statement here assumes quite a few facts not in evidence. If they were conducting a random surveillance operation and observed the purchase and the transportation of assembled > 10 round capacity mags across the state line, then they have more than enough to move forward as they did.

As to there not being enough time and money to do it day in and day out... who says? If you can divine out BoF's actual budget out of the larger CADoJ spend, and good luck with that, you might be surprised just how many resources there really are. Bear in mind, also, that these types of operations (if that's what it was) would be politically popular in Sacramento and in the media, as well as advance the anti-civil rights agenda.

My guess is that they picked a day to watch location X, and tumbled to the guy. Life, and police work in general, is very much like that.

I have to assume things: There are no details given. I all I know is that there was absolutely no PC/RAS to go search his home due to an importation of a Standard Capacity Magazine. It was a fishing expedition, pure and simple. If this incident is what passes muster for gaining a warrant for searching someone's house, we're in deep doo-doo....and I would be extremely disappointed in you, as ex-LEO, for agreeing with their reasoning in "moving forward as they did" (searching his house).

If those mags were not disassembled, they rightly popped him for importation. So be it. But for the CA DOJ to go as far as assuming he committed other crimes, like being in possession of an unregistered banned semi-auto rifle (note: unrelated to the importation crime), is totally asinine. They would have had to assume that he was going to use those mags in a rifle that was not configured in a featureless setup to have RAS (in the least), let alone PC. My question is, why did they assume this? He very well could have owned a featureless rifle........there was no reason to think he owned an unreg'd AW or that he was going to break the AW laws by inserting the imported mags into a non-featureless/reg'd AW rifle. If I was caught speeding and got a ticket, would it be reasonable to search my house for an stolen car in my garage? No, because the two crimes are completely unrelated (okay, not the best example, but still ;) ). Improper method in obtaining warrant, IMO. Total fishing expedition.



As for the CA DOJ funding, have you not heard about our current economic situation? There is no money left and we've already maxed out our credit cards. I dont know their budget, but I can tell you after crap like this that they are using FAR too much to catch WAY too little. And I think you'd be surprised about it's popularity.....it may be politically popular in the political world, but if you ask the common man around Sacramento about this, I'm sure they would typically agree that this kind of spending would be much better spent elsewhere, or not at all. Millions of $$$ a year to catch a few people for breaking ridiculous laws? Only rank-and-file Liberals, rabid anti's, majority of politicians and MSM support this kind of irrational thinking. The majority of Californians dont care.....the only problem is that they are voting for politicians who do.

bwiese
09-08-2011, 12:50 PM
I have to assume things: There are no details given. I all I know is that there was absolutely no PC/RAS to go search his home due to an importation of a Standard Capacity Magazine.

Observation of mag acquisition in NV and importation across border, accompanies by general continuity of observation [i.e, didn't go back to trunk of his car till arrival at home] would be sufficient for warrant.

While I don't have all details, I believe they let him in fact let him specifically go home so there would be better grounds for warrant (than busting him in Truckee and saying "oh he might have other illegal crap at home".)

The rifle with the MagMagnet is unconnected to the mag situation above - once they were in the house, and the gun even perhaps in 'plain view', it's all over.

otalps
09-08-2011, 12:55 PM
How absurd can a statement be ....


Obviously one can be quite absurd. Take this Brady quote for example:


Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.

goodlookin1
09-08-2011, 1:01 PM
Observation of mag acquisition in NV and importation across border, accompanies by general continuity of observation [i.e, didn't go back to trunk of his car till arrival at home] would be sufficient for warrant.

While I don't have all details, I believe they let him in fact let him specifically go home so there would be better grounds for warrant (than busting him in Truckee and saying "oh he might have other illegal crap at home".)

The rifle with the MagMagnet is unconnected to the mag situation above - once they were in the house, and the gun even perhaps in 'plain view', it's all over.

Yes, but typically a warrant is given for the evidence of the crime, not a general, "search whatever you want and you might find more". And with MagMagnet, you'd really have to inspect the firearm before determining its legality. There really arent too many LEO's who can pinpoint legal and illegal rifles instantaneously.....heck, even the most well versed gun enthusiasts have to give a short inspection to determine legality. Since the CA DOJ didnt know he had an AR, I would think that couldnt have been part of the warrant....

I dont know, I'm sure I'm wrong....I just dont think it's fair. Any way you look at it, it's the CA DOJ/LEO playing games and working the system to get what they want: Stronger sentence. What's better than 1 Felony? 2 felonies! And they get their kudos and the extra notch on their belts. That's the reason for so many of our laws: Enhanced sentences. I think it is immoral and wrong to do this, except in violent offenses, in which case they could just increase the punishment on the violent offenses themselves so they would have to worry about tacking on extra crap.

Untamed1972
09-08-2011, 1:08 PM
The amount of manpower and time spent on surveiling any vehicles parking at a Bass Pro Shop or gun show in Vegas must be staggering! How does the surveillance team know which California residents are going in to buy magazines or just fishing gear, beef jerky, or ammunition? Do they send a person to tail each resident while they shop?

Secondly, once a person is observed purchasing a 10+ magazine, do they then follow that person around to see if they are heading back for the California border? What if said person is buying magazines on the first day of a week-long vacation in Vegas?

Do they try to maintain the chain of evidence somehow or call the following units back and say, "I guess he broke the chain of evidence so we can't get him when he returns to California"?

This is mind-boggling the potential expenditure of tax dollars for a few busts.


This is an area where I'd love to see some Sheriff's and state LEA's in Pro-2A states tell CA to F-off and refuse to allow CA LEOs to conduct such operations in their state. The surveilling of citizens conducting what is legal commerce in that state should not be allowed, and the LEAs of that state should arrest CA LEOs for conducting such operations outsid etheir jurisdiction.

goodlookin1
09-08-2011, 1:09 PM
How absurd can a statement be....
Yes indeed, i've seen some doozies....case in point, below :facepalm:

Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.
Thank you for outting yourself as a fool campaigning for the anti's.

YOU'VE BEEN MADE and it's your own fault.

scarville
09-08-2011, 2:03 PM
What, are you some kind of homicidal maniac? Why do you need 10 rounds? Why do you need magazines?

Single shot guns are all anybody needs for self-defense or "plinking".l
For plinking a single shot is completly adequate but for self defense you need a cellphone so you can call the police who will come guns, high capacity magazines and a nice bag for your remains.

trashman
09-08-2011, 2:05 PM
For plinking a single shot is completly adequate but for self defense you need a cellphone so you can call the police who will come guns, high capacity magazines and a nice bag for your remains.

And paperwork. Don't forget the paperwork.

--Neill

dantodd
09-08-2011, 3:08 PM
While I don't have all details, I believe they let him in fact let him specifically go home so there would be better grounds for warrant (than busting him in Truckee and saying "oh he might have other illegal crap at home".)


This is the most logical scenario. If you have the guy under surveillance and he didn't take the mags out of his car until he got home it would make sense to wait until he arrived at home and then make the search. This approach gives you access to someone's home who you already believe has broken the law. It is also possible that the warrant included any other imported "large capacity" magazines which would get the officers into his safe etc.

Play dangerous games, face dangerous consequences. 30 rounders aren't worth 3 years and a lifetime prohibition.

Mesa Tactical
09-08-2011, 3:34 PM
I have to assume things: There are no details given.

all I know is that there was absolutely no PC/RAS to go search his home due to an importation of a Standard Capacity Magazine.

Did you even read what you just typed?

You have no idea what happened. Neither does anyone else in this thread. Therefore you have no idea what the PC was or what the warrant says.

But just to show I can play along as well as anyone, I'm going to offer some completely unfounded speculation of my own: I am convinced (convinced!) these yokels announced their plans in advance on Facebook, and the DoJ picked it up.

Now run with that!

aklover_91
09-08-2011, 3:37 PM
Yup because this is exactly the same thing as Rosa Parks and The Civil Rights Movement by Blacks :facepalm: How absurd can a statement be ....Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.
Gun rights are civil rights. Deal with it.

And unless you forgot, there was a federal ban for 10 years. Didn't accomplish anything but causing us headaches.

supersonic
09-08-2011, 5:59 PM
I don't understand your post. The post you were replying to in no way suggested the poster was not law abiding and we have no obligation to protect those who are not law abiding. There are some among us who are willing to risk their freedom and our rights for things that are just not worth me losing my rights over. I would like those people to either start following the law or get out of the gun culture. We should work hard to make sure we deserve the reputation as a law abiding group.

Well, maybe you'll "understand" if I put it in layman's terms. Here goes: assuming the DOJ is working THAT hard to follow people across state lines, set up surveillance, get warrants, and god knows what other expensive resources -just for a friggin' >10 round magazine violation, the person I quoted may be putting their OWN a** in jeopardy by posting that here. Do you think anyone wants to be raided (guilty or NOT) and go directly on the DOJ's radar? "Understand" it now? Or do I need to re-reclarify??:rolleyes:

ap3572001
09-08-2011, 7:36 PM
For plinking a single shot is completly adequate but for self defense you need a cellphone so you can call the police who will come guns, high capacity magazines and a nice bag for your remains.

I am all for gun rights. I also have magazines 10+ capacity. People should have a right to have them. Myself, off duty I carry a three inch revolver a lot. Feel just fine with. Officers in my town pack Sig 220's. I am sure they feel ok too. I think people should have a choice

BigDogatPlay
09-08-2011, 8:35 PM
Yes, but typically a warrant is given for the evidence of the crime, not a general, "search whatever you want and you might find more". And with MagMagnet, you'd really have to inspect the firearm before determining its legality. There really arent too many LEO's who can pinpoint legal and illegal rifles instantaneously.....heck, even the most well versed gun enthusiasts have to give a short inspection to determine legality. Since the CA DOJ didnt know he had an AR, I would think that couldnt have been part of the warrant....

They already had, apparently, an on view felony. Why else would one buy mags, after all, unless one had a rifle that fit them? Particularly to drive out of state to get the mags. They would be perfectly within the realm of investigative methods to obtain a warrant to determine whether or not there were additional crimes being committed.

I dont know, I'm sure I'm wrong....I just dont think it's fair.

Correct, you don't know. I don't know. None of us truly does. But I think I can make an informed speculation based on what's reported in the thread and my own experience as a LEO and criminal investigator.

You are also quite correct that it's not fair. It's flat bloody stupid. But that is, in this case, what the law is and as law abiding citizens who happen to own firearms it's up to us to act responsibly and not jam ourselves up like this person apparently did.

It's also becoming quite apparent to me that BoF is trying really hard to make examples of some people. No doubt there will be media and political activity around it at some point. Which, of course, would open up the line of thinking that our new Attorney General has taken the brakes off of BoF that our Governor had put on when he was AG.

OleCuss
09-08-2011, 8:56 PM
.
.
.
It's also becoming quite apparent to me that BoF is trying really hard to make examples of some people. No doubt there will be media and political activity around it at some point. Which, of course, would open up the line of thinking that our new Attorney General has taken the brakes off of BoF that our Governor had put on when he was AG.

The whole post was very worthwhile, but I think the part I quoted may be the most important insight of all.

Thank you.

otalps
09-08-2011, 8:59 PM
They would be perfectly within the realm of investigative methods to obtain a warrant to determine whether or not there were additional crimes being committed.


Still depressing that California law enforcement stalking people in another state is within the realm of investigative methods though. Wonder if they were in hot pursuit like Buford T. Justice.:)

RollingCode3
09-08-2011, 9:15 PM
Damn straight. All the "I found a box of 33 round Glock mags in my garage" BS that floats around CG's gives a look of impropriety to the entire CG community and law abiding gun owners.

Everyone complains about LE not doing their jobs but, when it comes to something like nailing somebody importing 10+ round capacity mags, its LE harrassing some poor fellow. You can't have it both ways.


or "I found a bunch of hi-cap mags at the range"

or "my uncle bough a box of hi caps mag for me when I was young"

or Those that buy rebuild kits online for their XD, M&P, etc... :facepalm:

Just to clear up some CGF stuff. . .

1) CGF does not take cases where the person was intentionally breaking the law. In fact, if there is even a large amount of "stupid" then it is unlikely that CGF will take case.

2) The easiest way to stay out of jail is to not break laws, and if you do get arrested or questioned for something, simply do not talk.

3) I get a lot of the initial "phone calls," and I can say that being stupid, breaking laws, getting into drama with others, and having them later drop a dime on you - well - that is how people end up in jail.

Folks, PLEASE REMIND YOUR NON-CALGUNS FRIENDS TO STAY LEGAL, THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO AVOID PROBLEMS. I HAVE ENDED FRIENDSHIPS OVER THIS ISSUE.

The only way that I can be an advocate is by staying legal in everything. I know you guys and gals are "legal" - but please resist the temptation to even THINK about playing around with this stuff.

:thumbsup:

Cokebottle
09-08-2011, 11:05 PM
1) Legal purchase in Nevada
He was not arrested for purchasing the magazines
2) Not a gun show (What was CA DOJ doing monitoring a Cabelas?)
It's one of the many things they do. It's for the children :facepalm:
3) How did the CA DOJ know he didnt own legal standard cap mags in CA and needed replacements due to worn out old mags?

It doesn't matter. If he imported the mags assembled, he violated the law.

He can import rebuild kits to rebuild his old mags. He cannot import complete magazines even if his old mags were broken down prior to his leaving the state.
4) Now 30 Round Mag possession = Probable Cause/Reasonable Articulable Suspicion to get warrant to search for Semi Auto Banned rifle (illegal AW)?
This would be his attorney's best tact IMHO... Get the warrant thrown out and much of the case goes away.
No question that a warrant could have been issued for search of the vehicle while on it's way back... but honestly, the officer's had PC for a search of the vehicle without a warrant.
5) How did the CA DOJ know the mags found at his home were not legally owned?
The main issue "at home" was the mag magnet installed in a featured build. Once that was discovered, the legality of his magazines became irrelevant.
The AW possession charge makes the magazine charges small potatoes. Without it, he'd likely be able to plea the mag charges down to misdo (it's a wobbler)... but AW possession is a felony.

Cokebottle
09-08-2011, 11:11 PM
Yup because this is exactly the same thing as Rosa Parks and The Civil Rights Movement by Blacks :facepalm: How absurd can a statement be ....Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.
Okay.

You can go back to the Brady forums now.

dantodd
09-08-2011, 11:17 PM
the person I quoted may be putting their OWN a** in jeopardy by posting that here. Do you think anyone wants to be raided (guilty or NOT) and go directly on the DOJ's radar? "Understand" it now? Or do I need to re-reclarify??:rolleyes:

I guess you will. The poster said that he refuses to shoot with people who he knows refuse to follow the law and saidnthat he does follow thenlaw. What about that puts the poster in jeopardy?

Cokebottle
09-08-2011, 11:19 PM
Yes, but typically a warrant is given for the evidence of the crime, not a general, "search whatever you want and you might find more". And with MagMagnet, you'd really have to inspect the firearm before determining its legality. There really arent too many LEO's who can pinpoint legal and illegal rifles instantaneously.....heck, even the most well versed gun enthusiasts have to give a short inspection to determine legality. Since the CA DOJ didnt know he had an AR, I would think that couldnt have been part of the warrant....
The warrant would cover anywhere that a magazine could be stored/hidden. Anything found incident would be fair game.

Now, if the warrant were for assault rifles and they were to open a drawer in the bathroom and find a high cap, that would be inadmissible because an assault rifle could not reasonably be expected to be in an 8"x 3" bathroom drawer.

But if the warrant is issued for magazines, and they open a drawer or a closet and discover an illegally configured pistol or rifle, it is fair game for investigation.

And SB23 really is pretty simple, I mean... it's simple enough for a 1-page flowchart.
More LE than not... particularly those working for the DOJ... would be able to spot an unlawfully configured semiautomatic, centerfire rifle on a cursory inspection to confirm that it is not rimfire.

Cokebottle
09-08-2011, 11:20 PM
This is an area where I'd love to see some Sheriff's and state LEA's in Pro-2A states tell CA to F-off and refuse to allow CA LEOs to conduct such operations in their state. The surveilling of citizens conducting what is legal commerce in that state should not be allowed, and the LEAs of that state should arrest CA LEOs for conducting such operations outsid etheir jurisdiction.
Goes both ways.

AZ/NV tell California to FOAD, then they get no assistance when a fugitive is suspected of being here.

Cokebottle
09-08-2011, 11:31 PM
I guess you will. The poster said that he refuses to shoot with people who he knows refuse to follow the law and saidnthat he does follow thenlaw. What about that puts the poster in jeopardy?
+1

That's how I read it as well.

People that I once called "friend" have, at various times, participated in any number of illegal activities. Mostly misdemeanor, but a couple I suspected of being involved in felonious activity.
As soon as this becomes known to me, I consider the relationship over and cease all contact.
I'm not going to rat them out, and I make sure that I don't know enough details to be able to provide anything useful if I am questioned. It's their life, if they're going to do something stupid and get caught, I'm not going to be a part of it.

Librarian
09-09-2011, 12:02 AM
And SB23 really is pretty simple, I mean... it's simple enough for a 1-page flowchart.


Now there's an understatement!

For those who were not on Calguns in January of 2008, the first 'final' version took about 200 posts of discussions among around 50 people across two weeks, plus some large amount of work by Redhorse to produce the 'pretty' document.

But the stuff IS simple - once you've studied it long enough.

Compelling it to make sense is still ongoing...

Cokebottle
09-09-2011, 12:29 AM
But the stuff IS simple - once you've studied it long enough.
I would have loved to have been in (or even down the hallway) from Gene's office when the "a-ha! moment" hit him like a dump truck on the interstate.

Funny reading some of the earlier posts... Bill was quite the "Nervous Nellie" in the very early days when 10% was breaking ground.

goodlookin1
09-09-2011, 7:57 AM
It doesn't matter. If he imported the mags assembled, he violated the law.
Not if he had already destroyed his legally owned standard cap mags at home....then it wouldnt matter at which point he assembled or imported the mags. It would only matter if he ended up being in possession of more >10 round mags than he started out with at the point the law came into effect. I'm not saying he did this....just saying it is an option if indeed he legally owned others.

He can import rebuild kits to rebuild his old mags. He cannot import complete magazines even if his old mags were broken down prior to his leaving the state.
Do you have PC for this exact situation? I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but I'd like to know the difference between destroying your old mags before importing fully functioning mags VS destroying your old mags, then buying new ones out of state, breaking them down, import them back to CA and re-assemble them a mile past the CA border?

In my view, those imported mags took the place of his old ones. Of course, this is all an exercise in futility as it's about a 99.99% chance he didnt do this :cool:


This would be his attorney's best tact IMHO... Get the warrant thrown out and much of the case goes away.
No question that a warrant could have been issued for search of the vehicle while on it's way back... but honestly, the officer's had PC for a search of the vehicle without a warrant.
Absolutely, the Officers did have PC......to search the car, and I agree this would be a good path for his attorney. I just dont see the legitimate connection, with the details given, to search the house. Outside of some other evidence of separate crimes that was not mentioned, the LEO's/CA DOJ clearly manipulated the situation to be granted further access to fish for other illegal activities.

The main issue "at home" was the mag magnet installed in a featured build. Once that was discovered, the legality of his magazines became irrelevant.
Yes, the result of the (successful) fishing expedition.

The AW possession charge makes the magazine charges small potatoes. Without it, he'd likely be able to plea the mag charges down to misdo (it's a wobbler)... but AW possession is a felony.
Exactly why they wanted to go fishing in the first place. And it all goes back to what BigDogatPlay said regarding the BoF wanting to make examples of people. This is my beef with this whole situation.

furyous68
09-09-2011, 9:26 AM
Yup because this is exactly the same thing as Rosa Parks and The Civil Rights Movement by Blacks :facepalm: How absurd can a statement be ....Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.


How did this guy last here long enough to become a senior member? You'd think he'd have made more comments like this before now!? LOL

ccmc
09-09-2011, 10:04 AM
Glock 21... got 5 of them

Those are 13 round mags. I think he meant FS handguns with 10 round DS mags which is why I mentioned Beretta PX4-45. I thought about G30 which has 10 round DS mags, but that's not really FS in the Glock hierarchy. But aren't the M&P45FS also 10 round DS mags (I know there's an option for extended capacity, but I think the standard is 10 rounds IIRC).

GutPunch
09-09-2011, 11:49 AM
The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.

What? I'm hoping I missed your sarcasm because people who are willing to MURDER don't give a **** about the law in the first place...

FFS.

SwissFluCase
09-09-2011, 12:02 PM
Yup because this is exactly the same thing as Rosa Parks and The Civil Rights Movement by Blacks :facepalm: How absurd can a statement be ....Break the law go to jail it's fairly simple and a 10 round mag is more than enough rounds for SD and plinking. The Carson shooting shows just how important this law is it just needs to be equally enforced federally.

I don't think so....

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Librarian
09-09-2011, 12:41 PM
I don't think so....

Regards,


SwissFluCase

This is the more appropriate level of response to the post.

Knock off the attacks.

// Librarian

Super Spy
09-09-2011, 2:13 PM
Don't buy 10+ mags out of state and bring them back HERE...

Correction: Don't buy 10+ rounders out of state and bring them back without dis-assembling them into parts kits first.

advocatusdiaboli
09-09-2011, 3:39 PM
Why was the CA DOJ watching/observing/following him in the first place?

Because they get paid to find and arrest violators so it's their job. Next question.

advocatusdiaboli
09-09-2011, 3:42 PM
Which, of course, would open up the line of thinking that our new Attorney General has taken the brakes off of BoF that our Governor had put on when he was AG.

We saw that coming when Miss Sanctuary City was elected. And we can expect it to get worse unless the Gov muzzles her and obviously he doesn't intend to.

advocatusdiaboli
09-09-2011, 3:47 PM
SO, pardon my ignorance of the MagMagnet since I use Bullet Buttons, but the MagMagnet in of itself is not illegal but rather the tendency of the lazy to attach it and leave it attached that makes the firearm an AW correct? However, since DOJ could attach it in court and show it stays attached making the firearm and AW, that it's not a gray area but in black and white an AW?

oni.dori
09-09-2011, 3:50 PM
Honestly, the more info that comes out, the more this stinks to high heaven. It's almost like they CA DOJ is trying to take inspiration from the BAFTE on how to operate. What were they doing conducting operations they have no authority to, in places they have no jurisdiction? Fishy doesn't even BEGIN to describe this stink my friends.

Paul S
09-09-2011, 3:52 PM
..............You are also quite correct that it's not fair. It's flat bloody stupid. But that is, in this case, what the law is and as law abiding citizens who happen to own firearms it's up to us to act responsibly and not jam ourselves up like this person apparently did.................

.

Words to live by until such time as the laws change. Well said sir.

P.S. I'd still love to read the Probable Cause statement and the affidavit for the warrant.

Arisaka
09-09-2011, 4:58 PM
Its a PTR44 by SSD in Germany. Its a semi-auto replica of the German WWII Sturmgewehr 44 (MP44), the original assault rifle. Uses the repro or original mags and fires the 7.92x33 round.

It's also ****ing awesome. Thank you for the info!

Cokebottle
09-09-2011, 5:01 PM
Not if he had already destroyed his legally owned standard cap mags at home....then it wouldnt matter at which point he assembled or imported the mags. It would only matter if he ended up being in possession of more >10 round mags than he started out with at the point the law came into effect. I'm not saying he did this....just saying it is an option if indeed he legally owned others.
The law does not say that on September 10 2011 you can not be in possession of more magazines than you were in possession of on December 31 1999... the law says that it is illegal to import or manufacture large capacity magazines.

There are roughly 19 exemptions to the law. NONE of those exemptions cover the importation of replacement magazines.
NONE of those exemptions cover the manufacture of replacement magazines.
One of those exemptions covers the importation of magazines that were lawfully possessed within California prior to Jan 1, 2000.

What is allowed under the law is the REPAIR of older worn or damaged magazines.
Do you have PC for this exact situation?
There is no PC for "this exact" situation. It falls back on "that which is not prohibited is permitted".

It is not prohibited to import magazine parts
It is not prohibited to repair old magazines.
It IS prohibited to import completed magazines that were not lawfully possessed within California prior to Jan 1, 2000.

PC12020(a)(2) is the prohibition.
PC12020(b)(19) through PC12020(b)(32) are the exemptions.

Swiss
09-09-2011, 5:05 PM
I'm rather curious about the reason for the search warrant. Was it just buying hicap mags? It's not a crime, especially out of state. Is it enough for a search warrant?

I too would like to learn more about the grounds for search warrant

Cokebottle
09-09-2011, 5:15 PM
SO, pardon my ignorance of the MagMagnet since I use Bullet Buttons, but the MagMagnet in of itself is not illegal but rather the tendency of the lazy to attach it and leave it attached that makes the firearm an AW correct? However, since DOJ could attach it in court and show it stays attached making the firearm and AW, that it's not a gray area but in black and white an AW?
Correct.

Possession of the mag magnet is not a crime.
Use of the mag magnet is not a crime under the following conditions:
1 - Outside of California
2 - On a lower with NO semiautomatic, centerfire upper attached
2A - Rimfire
2B - Bolt Action
2C - Stripped

Any other use of the mag magnet that results in it being attached to the magazine release for even a fraction of a second results in the creation of a receiver capable of accepting a detachable magazine.
The same would apply to the little red bullet button wrench. I have one, and it remains in the toolbox. It is NEVER stored with my featured builds.

Normally, for charges to stick, the search team would need to persuade the jury that the mag magnet was attached to the rifle at the time it was found, and not attached after the fact by the search team. That might be an easy counter considering the ease of installing the MM.
But here we have a double-whammy. Most likely, they are going to present as evidence, a featured rifle, with a 30rd magazine stuck in it, AND with a mag magnet installed.
In this case, with or without the mag magnet, you still have a violation. You either have a detachable magazine, or you have a >10 round magazine inserted into a fixed-magazine rifle.

Yes, the search team COULD have created the configuration prior to taking photos... they will persuade the jury that they did not, and the defense attorney will attempt to persuade the jury that they did.
Then he will attempt to justify his client being in possession of high-caps without a featureless build... even though possession is not a crime, the jury will assume that since he had them, he was using them.

furyous68
09-09-2011, 6:32 PM
Those are 13 round mags. I think he meant FS handguns with 10 round DS mags which is why I mentioned Beretta PX4-45. I thought about G30 which has 10 round DS mags, but that's not really FS in the Glock hierarchy. But aren't the M&P45FS also 10 round DS mags (I know there's an option for extended capacity, but I think the standard is 10 rounds IIRC).

Nope. I have 5-10rd dbl stack mags with my Glock 21c. I might be misunderstanding what you and he meant, but they are 10 rounders.

formerTexan
09-09-2011, 6:35 PM
why is CA LEO's going out of state, spending money that could be better spent elsewhere? how about staying in the state and actually investigate and maybe arrest people who commit crime where there is an actual victim? how is it that the police complain about funding when they some have the resources for this bovine excrement?

supersonic
09-09-2011, 6:36 PM
I guess you will. The poster said that he refuses to shoot with people who he knows refuse to follow the law and saidnthat he does follow thenlaw. What about that puts the poster in jeopardy?


+1

That's how I read it as well.

People that I once called "friend" have, at various times, participated in any number of illegal activities. Mostly misdemeanor, but a couple I suspected of being involved in felonious activity.
As soon as this becomes known to me, I consider the relationship over and cease all contact.
It's their life, if they're going to do something stupid and get caught, I'm not going to be a part of it.

Man, is it really that difficult to figure out? Ok, I guess I will have to talk in specifics so that my third attempt to explain something so simple can be understood by those (few, I'm sure) that didn't get it the first two times......

Break the law pay the price - some people (that I know personally) don't take these rules seriously. I forwarded this post to one of those "friends". He has an unpinned 14.5" barrel and regularly goes shooting with another friend who takes 100rnd drums with them to shoot on BLM land. He wonders why I won't go shooting with him :rolleyes

In our (read: firearms enthusiasts living in California) world, being extra careful and going that EXTRA step to CYA and remain within compliance of the law(s) is the most important part (besides safety) of being gun owners. We generally don't enjoy LE interaction or incarceration or courtrooms. I don't care what anyone says, the poster above just made a very potential mistake in that he "knows" or is "friends" enough with the one in non-compliance well enough to know INTIMATELY the details of how the illegal AW is configured! I don't know that much about any of my good friends' rifles! As I had mentioned before, if the DOJ is getting THAT desperate for these AW & magazine capacity compliance issues, what's to stop an agent from getting a warrant on the above poster for admittedly knowing the whereabouts & configuration of an unreg'd AW (FELONY)????

I'm not going to rat them out, and I make sure that I don't know enough details to be able to provide anything useful if I am questioned.

^^For someone who says "+1, that's how I read it as well", you sure seem to get exactly what I am talking about. Very confusing indeed.;)

dantodd
09-09-2011, 6:56 PM
As I had mentioned before, if the DOJ is getting THAT desperate for these AW & magazine capacity compliance issues, what's to stop an agent from getting a warrant on the above poster for admittedly knowing the whereabouts & configuration of an unreg'd AW (FELONY)????


I'm afraid you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the function of a warrant.

supersonic
09-09-2011, 7:42 PM
I'm afraid you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the function of a warrant.

Nope. No misunderstanding at all. But, even if one were to take the "warrant" out of the equation, life can still be made very hard for someone by law enforcement. Very hard.

TRICKSTER
09-09-2011, 8:21 PM
Nope. No misunderstanding at all. But, even if one were to take the "warrant" out of the equation, life can still be made very hard for someone by law enforcement. Very hard.

What purpose would a search warrant serve if the item being named in the warrant was knowingly not at the residence where the warrant was being served. Heck, if I put in a warrant affidavit that I knew the item was not there but I was still asking the judge to sign the warrant anyway, the judge would tell me that I'm nuts and would probably deny any of my future warrant request. Dantodd is correct, you do have a fundamental misunderstanding of the function of a warrant.

goodlookin1
09-09-2011, 8:28 PM
The law does not say that on September 10 2011 you can not be in possession of more magazines than you were in possession of on December 31 1999... the law says that it is illegal to import or manufacture large capacity magazines.

There are roughly 19 exemptions to the law. NONE of those exemptions cover the importation of replacement magazines.
NONE of those exemptions cover the manufacture of replacement magazines.
One of those exemptions covers the importation of magazines that were lawfully possessed within California prior to Jan 1, 2000.

What is allowed under the law is the REPAIR of older worn or damaged magazines.

There is no PC for "this exact" situation. It falls back on "that which is not prohibited is permitted".

It is not prohibited to import magazine parts
It is not prohibited to repair old magazines.
It IS prohibited to import completed magazines that were not lawfully possessed within California prior to Jan 1, 2000.

PC12020(a)(2) is the prohibition.
PC12020(b)(19) through PC12020(b)(32) are the exemptions.

You can replace every part of a "worn" magazine with parts from a new magazine. Ergo, you can buy a rebuild kit and so long as you destroy the worn mags (or turn into parts for a limited mag build, but what good is a bunch of worn parts?) and don't end up with any more >10 mags than you started with.


So my question: What is the difference between importing a fully built mag if the old one is already destroyed VS crossing the border with parts and assembling it into >10 rounds 1 second after you're back in CA? Either way, when u get pulled over 20 mins back into CA, LEO cannot possibly confirm which method you used to obtain it unless they personally witness you reassembling those mags 1 second past the border. Then they have to prove that you didn't own any standard cap mags or that you didn't destroy your old one.

Furthermore, the fact that you can legally possess and use old standard cap mags and that it never states that you cannot replace a worn mag with a new one implies that you CAN in fact replace an entire worn magazine......it just does not specify how. What if your old mag is crushed and every component is broken and unfixable? Have you just lost your standard cap mag for good? No, you can replace it by purchasing a rebuild kit and assembling it as a SCM (standard cap mag). There is no requirement to keep any parts from the old existing mag.

Librarian
09-09-2011, 8:44 PM
What if your old mag is crushed and every component is broken and unfixable? Have you just lost your standard cap mag for good? No, you can replace it by purchasing a rebuild kit and assembling it as a SCM (standard cap mag). There is no requirement to keep any parts from the old existing mag.
That part is not so clear.

Evolution can be successfully argued; complete replacement, less so - for example, suppose you lose that mag rather than crush it. Under your argument, one should be able to replace it so long as the net number you own remains constant.

I suggest wholesale 'big-bang' replacement is not so easy to argue. I can't possibly know that it would fail, but it's not an argument on which I would want to rely.

Cokebottle
09-09-2011, 8:47 PM
You can replace every part of a "worn" magazine with parts from a new magazine.
Yes.
Ergo, you can buy a rebuild kit and so long as you destroy the worn mags (or turn into parts for a limited mag build, but what good is a bunch of worn parts?) and don't end up with any more >10 mags than you started with.
There is no requirement that the original magazines be destroyed... only that their worn parts be removed and replaced with the good parts.
This MIGHT mean replacement of 100% of the parts... but there should be a direct path to the rebuild.
It would not be advisable to purchase a 100rd drum rebuild kit, break down a 20rd stick mag, and assemble the drum as it's replacement.

The law states nothing about "not ending up with more"... that is simply a smart recommendation to avoid drama and allow you to tell your attorney and the jury with a straight face that the magazines were rebuilt.
So my question: What is the difference between importing a fully built mag if the old one is already destroyed VS crossing the border with parts and assembling it into >10 rounds 1 second after you're back in CA?
The difference is between being in compliance with the law, and committing a felony.
Either way, when u get pulled over 20 mins back into CA, LEO cannot possibly confirm which method you used to obtain it unless they personally witness you reassembling those mags 1 second past the border.
Agreed... Which is why we need to be smart. Even when we are 100% within the law, it is still possible to be arrested.
Then they have to prove that you didn't own any standard cap mags or that you didn't destroy your old one.
They don't need to prove that you didn't destroy your old one.
All they have to prove is that you imported or manufactured a large capacity magazine in a manner that was not exempted by one of the 13 legal exemptions allowed in PC12020(b).
Furthermore, the fact that you can legally possess and use old standard cap mags and that it never states that you cannot replace a worn mag with a new one implies that you CAN in fact replace an entire worn magazine......it just does not specify how.
Correct... but the law DOES specify that you can not manufacture or import a magazine OTHER than as allowed by one of the 13 legal exemptions allowed in PC12020(b).



Once again...

PC12020(a)(2) is the prohibition.
PC12020(b)(19) through PC12020(b)(32) are the exemptions.

Take an hour or two to read it and digest it. You are making some dangerous assumptions and making up laws that do not exist.

Remember... we're talking about a felony wobbler. One screwup and you won't be able to possess ANY capacity magazine in any state... ever.

Steyr_223
09-09-2011, 9:16 PM
"The law states nothing about "not ending up with more"... that is simply a smart recommendation to avoid drama and allow you to tell your attorney and the jury with a straight face that the magazines were rebuilt."


Work with me here..So it's possble to replace one of my 20rd or 30rd Colt AR mags with a Surefire 60rd?? Not that I would..

http://www.44mag.com/images/uploads/sf60_600.jpg

Librarian
09-09-2011, 9:29 PM
"The law states nothing about "not ending up with more"... that is simply a smart recommendation to avoid drama and allow you to tell your attorney and the jury with a straight face that the magazines were rebuilt."
Seems to me that if you start with 1 and end up with 2, most likely either you assembled or manufactured one, or imported one. Proving that might be interesting, but it is not a helpful condition in the case of a prosecution.

Work with me here..So it's possble to replace one of my 20rd or 30rd Colt AR mags with a Surefire 60rd?? Not that I would..



Throw away a Colt, buy a Surefire kit and assemble it? Not my favorite plan.

Sensible people fume and complain about the idiocy of the law, and are quite obvious about compliance.

Folks less averse to risk, but still sensible, fume and complain about the idiocy of the law, and are dead silent about compliance.

And thus we come to the end of another dramatic but futile thread on magazines.

Closed