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View Full Version : More ATF gunwalking: in Indiana!


tankarian
09-06-2011, 4:42 PM
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has acknowledged an Indiana dealer’s cooperation in conducting straw purchases at the direction of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Exclusive documents obtained by Gun Rights Examiner show the dealer cooperated with ATF by selling guns to straw purchasers, and that bureau management later asserted these guns were being traced to crimes.
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The dealer…was sent a "demand letter," based on the number of traces to him, which was retracted after his attorney pointed out they resulted from his cooperation with ATF. (Strangely, he got two voicemails from two different ATF people, both saying they were the head of the tracing operation).

Some of the straw men turned out to have felony convictions, the agents called the FBI background check system and fixed it so the transactions would be approved, something which may also have happened in Phoenix. (The attorney wasn't clear as to whether the guns were actually delivered to the gangs). More here (http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/09/codrea-exclusive-project-gangwalker.html)

It's already past time for an independent prosecutor to get to the bottom of this. Holder needs to be fired and charged with complicity in the murder of the dead AZ border patrol agent, Obama needs to be impeached.

gun toting monkeyboy
09-06-2011, 4:51 PM
I hope this one has legs too. Especially if the Obama minion that they want to put in charge of the ATF is involved. I think that this guy's source is right, and they should go after whoever approved selling guns to felons. That approval is, in itself, a felony if I am reading this right.

-Mb

sixtringr
09-06-2011, 5:19 PM
Tankarian is right. Watergate was a simple burglary. This is conspiracy in multiple murders.

adamsreeftank
09-06-2011, 10:51 PM
There ought to be a way to audit how many felons were "allowed" to buy guns and who authorized the sales.

Cali-Shooter
09-06-2011, 11:00 PM
Obama, the blood of American AND Mexican people are in YOUR hands. YOU did this. Sonnuva b***h.

Anchors
09-06-2011, 11:10 PM
No one is listening. We'll be lucky if Obama doesn't get reelected, much less resigns/gets impeached. MAYBE Holder will step down on his own accord with no charges. Maybe.

I have no faith in the public doing anything about F&F. Hopefully I'm just a negative Nancy and Obama and Holder both resign.

nrakid88
09-06-2011, 11:10 PM
I'm beyond confused on why there isn't a head hunt for the people responsible for these conspiracies, murders, and actions with the intent to destroy the Bill of Rights....

Makes me sad... Why are we not demonstrating?

Colt-45
09-06-2011, 11:17 PM
Makes me sad... Why are we not demonstrating?

Gun people aren't exactly the "demonstrating" type. Even on this site in other ocasions, people who have wanted to "demonstrate" have been told to stand down.

morfeeis
09-06-2011, 11:58 PM
Gun people aren't exactly the "demonstrating" type. Even on this site in other ocasions, people who have wanted to "demonstrate" have been told to stand down.
Why, they dont want to be on the list?

nrakid88
09-07-2011, 12:11 AM
Why have we been told to stand down? That sounds stupid. This is a democracy. Change comes from the bottom.

Are you refering to the UOC crowd? In that case, I understand how they were counter productive...

In this case, I can't see why we shouldn't organize and take to the streets....

whatpain
09-07-2011, 12:35 AM
i agree. this is ridiculous. if this story is true it pretty much makes the atf and obama implicit in a bunch of murders. and there is no way the mainstream liberal media is getting anywhere near this!!!

Anchors
09-07-2011, 12:42 AM
I'm down to picket outside the local ATF field office. But being friends with the ATF is kind of important sometimes since they have that magical "rule making" wizardry where they arbitrarily get to decide your Saiga is a DD or your ABC123 has no sporting purpose. Etc.
Getting on the ATF's bad side would be bad for certain parts of the movement. But for the average person on the street, it doesn't really matter.
What I think I'm saying is that having an official CalGuns event probably won't ever happen, but that doesn't mean some of us can't meet up for a day of nachos and public dissent as citizens doing so on our own accord and not representing the website/foundation in any way.

Colt-45
09-07-2011, 1:13 AM
Why have we been told to stand down? That sounds stupid. This is a democracy. Change comes from the bottom.


Not saying we should stand down. Just stating what has happened before, I don't remember the exact circumstances though.

But anyways, :iagree: I agree that we should organize and demonstrate like many other groups do.

press1280
09-07-2011, 2:22 AM
At some point you'd have to say it's a definite possibility that all these operations were not simply bungled attempts at tracking down straw buyers, criminals, and Mexican cartels, but a plot to try to cause instability so the government could step in and take more power through more gun control or other means.

vantec08
09-07-2011, 5:03 AM
Mediocre recognition of the Bill of Rights and downright deceit and corruption is what the voters want. Nothing to demonstrate about.

Curtis
09-07-2011, 5:07 AM
It looks like F&F included grenades.

Police (in Mexico City) have arrested a U.S. man for smuggling American grenade parts into Mexico for use by the Sinaloa cartel, and a U.S. official said the case has now been included in investigations into flawed law enforcement operations aimed at gun-trafficking networks on the Mexican border.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/09/06/mexico-says-us-man-smuggled-grenade-parts-for-sinaloa-cartel/#ixzz1XGtzRfjy

swilson
09-07-2011, 8:18 AM
No one is listening. We'll be lucky if Obama doesn't get reelected, much less resigns/gets impeached. MAYBE Holder will step down on his own accord with no charges. Maybe.

I have no faith in the public doing anything about F&F. Hopefully I'm just a negative Nancy and Obama and Holder both resign.

Most of the public doesn't know or hear about Fast and Furious, Gunrunner, guns walking, Border Patrol getting killed, etc... or if they did hear they didn't pay attention and have no idea how important it is, and as much as I don't want to blame the media (it's everyone's personal responsibility to inform themselves on current events) I really think they dropped the ball on this, but I also think it's on purpose.

The public should be outraged that the ATF let thousands of guns go straight to Mexican cartels without even involving Mexican authorities, all in an idiotic attempt to chip away at the Bill of Rights. Imagine the public and media uproar if this had happened under George W. Bush, even though liberals don't like guns they'd have jumped at the chance to impeach a republican president. You would've never have heard the end of it!

As much as I want to see everyone from the bottom to the top even remotely involved be tried for treason, it just won't happen unless the public demands it, but it's hard to be upset about something you don't know is happening.

Glock22Fan
09-07-2011, 10:29 AM
Most of the public doesn't want to know or hear about Fast and Furious, Gunrunner, guns walking, Border Patrol getting killed, etc...
From the people I've tried to talk to about this, I think you've missed out the two words I've emboldened above.

Colt-45
09-07-2011, 10:39 AM
At some point you'd have to say it's a definite possibility that all these operations were not simply bungled attempts at tracking down straw buyers, criminals, and Mexican cartels, but a plot to try to cause instability so the government could step in and take more power through more gun control or other means.

:iagree:

:mad:

Maybe we can get the entitlement crowd involved in this, when they're mad or demanding something everyone hears them.......

MAC USMC
09-07-2011, 11:05 AM
Check your memory bank - -

WACO, TEXAS - - Innocent men, women and children DIED due to the uncalled for use of automatic weapons, FIRE inducing chemical agents, helicopter gun ships, and tanks against American citizens. All of this was APPROVED by U. S. Attorney General Janet RENO who was incensed at the delay in wrapping up this incident and demanded action.

RUBY RIDGE, IDAHO - - A FBI sniper shot and killed and unarmed mother holding her infant child in her arms during a outlandish siege of Randy WEAVER's mountain home. His young son was also shot to death by U. S. Marshalls. All of this over a shotgun barrelled being cut off too shot at the insistance of an informant working for the feds.

QUESTION: Exactly how many federal agents, supervisors and federal attorneys were PROSECUTED over these two horrendous incidents?

ANSWER: Precisely ZERO!

RESOLUTION: Millions of tax-payers dollars were paid out to resolve the CIVIL LAW SUITS in this two incidents.

Several federal agents resigned their positons out of DISGUST at the actions taken and the cover-up that followed.

CONCLUSION: The current U. S. Attorney General. Eric HOLDER, is unconcerned for he is well aware that nothing whatsoever is going to happen to him. The liberals have it covered.

stix213
09-07-2011, 12:15 PM
Why have we been told to stand down? That sounds stupid. This is a democracy. Change comes from the bottom.

Are you refering to the UOC crowd? In that case, I understand how they were counter productive...

In this case, I can't see why we shouldn't organize and take to the streets....

Protesting is most effective when the majority of voters would be sympathetic to your cause, but can even be counter productive to your cause when the majority of voters would be aligned against you if properly motivated.

Not referring to this ATF story, but a group of fat white guys wanting easier and increased gun access isn't exactly a sympathetic cause in urban California right now, which is what most of the proposed protests would look like. An ATF protest focusing on the facts, without referencing a desire for increased gun access/rights, could be effective though since it would be a sympathetic cause for more people than just the gun rights movement. Even anti-gunners would agree with us that the ATF allowing gun sales to known felons where the guns end up in Mexico on purpose, is bordering on criminal conduct.

geeknow
09-07-2011, 12:27 PM
^^^outstanding point!

Articulation is EVERYTHING. We desperately need to package our argument, and create very easy to understand 'bullet points' (no pun intended).

Once this is done, 'selling' it to the media is easy.

swilson
09-07-2011, 12:47 PM
From the people I've tried to talk to about this, I think you've missed out the two words I've emboldened above.

Funny you should say that because the first time I wrote that sentence it said exactly that but for some reason I deleted that part. I don't remember exactly why I took it out, but I agree. Everyone is too busy playing Angry Birds on their iPhones and watching Kim Kardashian's big *** on TV to be bothered by anything less important than a royal wedding. Maybe if the NRA published an article in People Magazine the public might finally hear about it.

nrakid88
09-07-2011, 2:43 PM
I don't think that the general public would be against us on this issue.

Jon Stewart on the Daily Show pointed out how crazy the ATF is in this matter. Thats a pretty liberal show.

The protest could be called "Gun owners for common sense"

This is, after all, a very common sense issue. You don't knowingly give felons guns, with no way of tracking them. If I did that, I would go to prison. Eric Holder did that, so he should go to prison.

The ATF should be FORCED to give non-redacted files of the program, so that everyone who participated in poor judgement can be punished.

Firing federal employee's, in this economy, would go over well with many people. Espescially when those federal employees are causing murders.

There are ATF offices in Los Angeles. I am under-employed and college educated. Maybe with some coordination, and a call to some News agencies, this could go somewhere.

They spilled blood, we should cry for the ATF to bleed as well.

nrakid88
09-07-2011, 2:44 PM
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-21-2011/the-fast-and-the-furious---mexico-grift?xrs=share_copy

nrakid88
09-07-2011, 2:46 PM
If this really is a program that has not stopped, then it is our duty to protest until it is stopped, if for no other reason than to save lives.

And if the Indiana report is false, it is still our duty to bring corrupt officials to justice.

This is America, not some third world country.

nrakid88
09-07-2011, 2:50 PM
I actually like gun control. I like that the ATF helps stop guns from getting into felons hands (most of the time).

Now, the general public may disagree with me on WHAT guns I should be able to own, but I think NRA members and Brady Bunch members would be able to go hand in hand in protesting the ATF on this deviant nonsense.

Hell, maybe we actually could protest alongside the Brady Bunch. That would increase our likelihood of international News coverage.

nrakid88
09-07-2011, 2:54 PM
Maybe the brady bunch wouldn't be much help...

Their website is urging Obama to stop importing assault rifles into America to stop the guns from getting to Mexico.....


Are they a player in this web of lies? Maybe, or maybe they are not behind the scenes and are just using the convenient conspiracy and not reporting the truth to further there agenda.


Perhaps we could team up with a local, smaller, more rational anti-gun group in protesting.

nrakid88
09-07-2011, 2:56 PM
http://www.alianzacivica.org.mx/altoalasarmas/indexEn.php

Brady campaign probably wouldn't be as willing to think as other groups.

winxp_man
09-07-2011, 3:36 PM
Its really hard for me to say this but we seriously need to take our country back even if it includes starting a revolution.

nrakid88
09-07-2011, 3:43 PM
Its really hard for me to say this but we seriously need to take our country back even if it includes starting a revolution.

There will not be a revolution. Or at least not a violent one. There are not enough differences to draw peaceful people to arms. To do so would be futile, as the man would pack you full of lead and bury your ***.

I do agree with your train of thought, and we need a new political culture in this beautiful land.

Mesa Tactical
09-07-2011, 4:17 PM
This is certainly a shameful and even criminal dereliction of duty, but I wish you guys would quit calling it murder. Whenever anyone else in the media says someone was "killed by a gun," you raise the roof.

Guns didn't kill the victims, illegal Mexican cartels did.

Flopper
09-07-2011, 4:21 PM
Its really hard for me to say this but we seriously need to take our country back even if it includes starting a revolution.

:facepalm:

When you get angry enough, grab your rifle and run outside. If youíre the only one there, itís not time yet.

stix213
09-07-2011, 4:59 PM
Its really hard for me to say this but we seriously need to take our country back even if it includes starting a revolution.

Things aren't even close to bad enough for the vast majority of people to go along with a revolution. Even the poor and unemployed have TV, microwaves, and free food.

Smokeybehr
09-07-2011, 5:20 PM
This is certainly a shameful and even criminal dereliction of duty, but I wish you guys would quit calling it murder. Whenever anyone else in the media says someone was "killed by a gun," you raise the roof.

Guns didn't kill the victims, illegal Mexican cartels did.

One of the guns used to kill one of the good guys, BPA Brian Terry, was traced to one of the suspect transactions that was allowed to proceed by BATFE. Therefore, indirectly, a Sheepdog's blood is on Holder's hands.

Burbur
09-07-2011, 8:02 PM
The reason "Stand Down" is being thrown around is, this can't be a Gun Nuts vs. ATF scenario, it needs to be Common Man (read: doesn't give 2 ****s about guns) vs. ATF. All we would do is taint the situation, so they can spin it against us.

Unfortunately, Jon Stewart is exactly what is needed to whip this into a frenzy. Neither coverage by Fox News nor organized protests by Gun Nuts, can hold a candle to what he can do in a five minute segment. Now, how to keep this on his radar?

Colt-45
09-07-2011, 9:23 PM
Maybe the brady bunch wouldn't be much help..

In times like these you realize who the brady bunch and anti-gun organizations truly are. The Brady bunch isn't out there for "common sense" gun laws. They want to end civilian gun ownership, period.

The website you posted proves just that. They still hold US accountable for trafficking guns that end up in the hands of criminals in Mexico. They think our second amendment causes guns to end up in the hands of the wrong people. They're viewing the problem from the wrong angle. I would consider anti-gun groups rational if they blamed the ATF for the guns that end up in Mexico like we all know is the case. BUT NO, according to them, it is our private gun ownership which causes the blood shed in Mexico. Their logic is flawed.

If fast and the furious would of surface during the last presidency or during conservative pro-gun mandate, this would be all over the news and like others have said, we wouldn't see the end of it.


Now, how to keep this on his radar?

Billboards and signs maybe? popping upthroughout the country....... that always get's peoples attention.

otalps
09-07-2011, 9:32 PM
Now, the general public may disagree with me on WHAT guns I should be able to own, but I think NRA members and Brady Bunch members would be able to go hand in hand in protesting the ATF on this deviant nonsense.

Hell, maybe we actually could protest alongside the Brady Bunch. That would increase our likelihood of international News coverage.

Protest with the Brady bunch? I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. They are the enemy. If they knew about this before hand they would of been ok with it. F them.

otalps
09-07-2011, 9:33 PM
Now, the general public may disagree with me on WHAT guns I should be able to own, but I think NRA members and Brady Bunch members would be able to go hand in hand in protesting the ATF on this deviant nonsense.

Hell, maybe we actually could protest alongside the Brady Bunch. That would increase our likelihood of international News coverage.

Protest with the Brady bunch? I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. They are the enemy. If they knew about this before hand they would of been ok with it. F them, they already have blood on their hands.

Mesa Tactical
09-08-2011, 7:21 AM
One of the guns used to kill one of the good guys, BPA Brian Terry, was traced to one of the suspect transactions that was allowed to proceed by BATFE. Therefore, indirectly, a Sheepdog's blood is on Holder's hands.

Okay, if you are going to play it that way, then there is blood on the hands of every gun manufacturer and dealer in America.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

nrakid88
09-08-2011, 7:39 AM
Okay, if you are going to play it that way, then there is blood on the hands of every gun manufacturer and dealer in America.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

If you give a known felon a gun, you are an idiot. It is illegal. The ATF is not above the law, although they act as if they are the law.

Mesa Tactical
09-08-2011, 9:11 AM
If you give a known felon a gun, you are an idiot. It is illegal. The ATF is not above the law, although they act as if they are the law.

All very true. But no one is responsible for murder except the murderers.

steamboat
09-08-2011, 1:12 PM
Protesting is most effective when the majority of voters would be sympathetic to your cause, but can even be counter productive to your cause when the majority of voters would be aligned against you if properly motivated.

Not referring to this ATF story, but a group of fat white guys wanting easier and increased gun access isn't exactly a sympathetic cause in urban California right now, which is what most of the proposed protests would look like. An ATF protest focusing on the facts, without referencing a desire for increased gun access/rights, could be effective though since it would be a sympathetic cause for more people than just the gun rights movement. Even anti-gunners would agree with us that the ATF allowing gun sales to known felons where the guns end up in Mexico on purpose, is bordering on criminal conduct.

I am sick to my stomach that we, in this community, are not organizing vocal dissent. Not only is the whole incident an assault on the 2nd, but for God sakes people are being killed by the thousands! Our friggin DOJ has demonstrated complete and utter willingness to obfuscate and cover up. I think we can make a safe assumption that the corruption is much deeper than whats already exposed. We have real problems here...

Talking point: Federal government agencies are subsidizing cartel violence. Innocent Mexicans live in a warzone, and are being slaughtered. The Mexican government is losing/ has lost control.

I think that would resonate with the average southern californian pretty well. Its not really about relaxed gun laws or anything like that. We can leave our NRA shirts at home and focus on the core issue... corruption, accountability and justice for the untold number of victims of this mess, not the least of which is Brian Terry, but especially the besieged people of Mexico.

keneva
09-08-2011, 1:56 PM
Maybe we should do a rally in Sacramento? Just as concerned citizens.

Doheny
09-08-2011, 5:24 PM
FF isn't going to gain much more traction than it has now. Too many people are worried about the economy and keeping their job; they simply don't have time time or interest in FF. There's no way FF is going to rise to the level of impeachment.

It's been suggested that when finally chosen, the republican candidate hammer Obama about the FF issue. That would be a huge mistake, since not enough people know or care about FF. I think said strategy would backfire badly; it would show the Republican candidate as being out of touch with the primary issues of jobs, the economy, etc.

We have an interest in FF because we're gun people and this is a right-leaning site that posts more anti-Obama posts than pro-Obama posts. However, most of American just doesn't know about it and/or care.

FWIW, the article in the OP comes from the Three Percenters' primary blog. The Three Percenters are considered an extremist anti-government group. (http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/oath_keepers_three_percenters.htm)That type of group isn't one I'd want to be hitching my wagon to or use as my source of information.

.

diginit
09-08-2011, 5:58 PM
Someone needs to forward this to "Anonymous". Give the group something to protest besides the BART police defending themselves against nutjobs.

tankarian
09-08-2011, 6:54 PM
FWIW, the article in the OP comes from the Three Percenters' primary blog. The Three Percenters are considered an extremist anti-government group. (http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/oath_keepers_three_percenters.htm)That type of group isn't one I'd want to be hitching my wagon to or use as my source of information.

.


Nice try to attack the messenger in order to discredit the message...but unfortunately for you, it's major fail.
The quoted source you are claiming to be "the extremist Three Percenters primary blog" is in fact merely quoting almost word for word an article published in the Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/exclusive-report-documents-indicate-atf-fbi-allowed-indiana-crime-gun-sales). Which (unless you are an Obama fanboy) is NOT an extremist website by any measure.

And since you attacked the messenger... did I mentioned Mike Vanderboegh who owns and writes the "extremist" SSI blog is one of the two bloggers who were FIRST to talk with the ATF whistle blowers? And did you know Mike was the FIRST person who published their testimonies online more than a year ago? Without the major contribution of the "extremist three percenter" Mike Vanderboegh who sent letters and emails to Rep. Darrel Issa and Sen. Grassley and who put the CBS News on the blood trail there would have been no congressional investigation and the Obama regime would have continued to sell guns to Mexican gun cartels and more US and Mexican nationals would have been murdered so Holder and Obama could claim it's America's lax gun laws that's creating the problem.
But it's not like all that would matter to somebody who is resorting to smears and name calling in order to distract the attention form the real issues.

nrakid88
09-09-2011, 8:20 AM
This is what our US Government is supporting

www.blogdelnarco.com

And a short video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ7W_EaYhn4