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View Full Version : California allows by law, Self Defense, LTC is GTG!


taperxz
09-05-2011, 1:51 PM
That's MY take on it. Here's why, We are allowed to carry loaded and concealed while fishing and hunting. FOR WHAT REASON??

99.9% of hunting takes place with a long arm. What purposed did the legislators have when allowing hunters and fisherman the ability to carry concealed and loaded? Not all hunting and fishing takes place in the boonies where some might say to protect themselves from lions and tigers and bears!! The law makes no such reference to where you can carry while taking part in these activities.

The ironic part of all this is that you can carry concealed and loaded with a license to fish and hunt. A license that the state who issues it will not acknowledge that same license when purchasing a firearm!! So you can carry for self defense with this license but not purchase a firearm with this license.

Additionally we all know that with a LTC, you don't need an HSC card. If you have a hunting or fishing license, you are allowed to carry under the LTC law for loaded concealed carry, why aren't people allowed to bypass the HSC if they have a hunting or fishing license, and conceal a gun, that is used for self defense purposes??

Your thoughts...

mikaarce
09-05-2011, 1:54 PM
That is an interesting analogy!

DannyInSoCal
09-05-2011, 2:16 PM
Your mistake is trying to use common sense in a debate over political issues.

That being said - I agree with you...

taperxz
09-05-2011, 2:26 PM
Your mistake is trying to use common sense in a debate over political issues.

That being said - I agree with you...

There is no mistake as this is not a rant. Just facts. Point being that we really do have a class of people who are allowed to carry concealed for self defense and the license that allows them to do this is disregarded for any other purpose. I think we have an equal protection claim here.

This manner of concealed, loaded carry is allowed by the state for personal protection and is allowed while engaged in the activity with either a hunting or fishing license.

I should note that i am not saying everyone must have a fishing license to fish as there are free days and public piers to fish from. In order to hunt wild game you MUST have a license. I also wonder if juveniles are also allowed to conceal carry while hunting or fishing???

ShootinMedic
09-05-2011, 2:46 PM
I also wonder if juveniles are also allowed to conceal carry while hunting or fishing???

That's a very interesting question. I'd love it if someone a little more knowledgeable than myself in the CA PC and F&G code would chime in. I'll have to re read the exemptions and see what they say exactly.

Jasonaspears
09-05-2011, 4:32 PM
Interesting arguments...

gratefuldog
09-05-2011, 4:39 PM
Are you allowed to carry concealed if fishing near a school??? I doubt it...

taperxz
09-05-2011, 4:42 PM
Yes, i supposed you would be because you are exempt under the LTC law.

Blackhawk556
09-05-2011, 4:44 PM
I thought this was going to be a thread about something new with instant changes.

Cokebottle
09-05-2011, 4:51 PM
We are allowed to carry loaded and concealed while fishing and hunting.
..................
The ironic part of all this is that you can carry concealed and loaded with a license to fish and hunt.
You were more correct the first time.

You may carry concealed and loaded while participating in hunting or fishing.

While en route to or from, you may carry concealed and unloaded, or, if you are in "unincorporated county areas where shooting is not otherwise prohibited"... loaded and open-carry.

Cokebottle
09-05-2011, 4:56 PM
Not all hunting and fishing takes place in the boonies
It might be an interesting test case to be arrested for LCC while fishing in a more metropolitan area like LaMirada Regional Park, Legg Lake at Whittier Narrows, Hansen Dam, etc....

The problem is, how do you set yourself up for the arrest without violating the law?

LOC would be illegal in those areas, so intentionally exposing your gun would introduce "color" to the case.
You could literally have to go fishing for months before a cop decided that he thought you were printing.

taperxz
09-05-2011, 4:59 PM
You were more correct the first time.

You may carry concealed and loaded while participating in hunting or fishing.

While en route to or from, you may carry concealed and unloaded, or, if you are in "unincorporated county areas where shooting is not otherwise prohibited"... loaded and open-carry.

I said that with the understanding that others knew what i meant in regards to when a person can do this! While engaged in the act of hunting and fishing;)

It is still allowed by the state for self defense of a certain class of people who have been licensed to engage in that activity. I should also not that the state allows this conduct with no prior training of a firearm, no approval from a sheriff, no good cause statement, no questioning of moral character ect. The state does in fact allow this conduct and for no other reason than for self defense.

Cokebottle
09-05-2011, 5:03 PM
I said that with the understanding that others knew what i meant in regards to when a person can do this! While engaged in the act of hunting and fishing;)
What is more interesting to me is that concealed is specified while hunting and fishing, when unlicensed LOC is permitted in most (more remote) areas where hunting and fishing are legal.

And as you said...
the state allows this conduct with no prior training of a firearm, no approval from a sheriff, no good cause statement, no questioning of moral character ect. The state does in fact allow this conduct and for no other reason than for self defense.

taperxz
09-05-2011, 5:09 PM
I should make it clear that i am not complaining, obviously, however i am trying to drive the point that if you really look at the way things are set up now, i think there may be an equal protection case here. How come if someone is fishing they have a right to carry concealed to protect themselves and their catch but when he stops fishing, he is not afforded the same right when he is in the city with his family and wanting to protect them?

taperxz
09-05-2011, 5:14 PM
One other point to drive home for all the legislature and the antis is that fishing and hunting are some of the safest sports in America. I wonder how many crimes were recorded by hunters and fisherman while carrying concealed and loaded? Or even just concealed and unloaded on there way to and from hunting/fishing.

I guess it just goes to show that both hunters and fisherman are more fit and less likely to commit crimes than any other person in the state.:D

Cokebottle
09-05-2011, 5:24 PM
Oh there are probably 20 various equal protection situations that are fully legitimate.

I'm not sure that any single EP case is enough... and I'm sure some of the better legal minds are aware of what the aggregate (particularly combined with AB610 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=474327&highlight=cpra)) means to the overall plan.

Like Gene always says....
"Chess, not checkers"

Let them bury themselves so deep in contradictory legislation that there is no way out but to repeal it all.
It would be like if Harris decided to add more lowers to the banned list.
That would require a reopening of the AW registry.
But she's not that stupid... she knows that would mean 10's of thousand of new RAW and 10's of thousands of bullet buttons removed.... and the manufacturers would simply change their model names and create a brand new group of OLL.

(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=474327&highlight=cpra)

Felix 808
09-05-2011, 7:09 PM
why aren't people allowed to bypass the HSC if they have a hunting or fishing license, and conceal a gun, that is used for self defense purposes??

Because the state wants their $$$. it is not about safety. When HSC's came out, they were lifetime, then got sent to 5 years, as if you might forget handgun safety every 5 years. just like the approved list of handguns, the state wants $$$. :cool:

$.02

Interesting information about concealed carry while hunting though.

zhyla
09-05-2011, 9:38 PM
How come if someone is fishing they have a right to carry concealed to protect themselves and their catch but when he stops fishing, he is not afforded the same right when he is in the city with his family and wanting to protect them?

I don't think that any court would dispute the fact hunting/fishing activities are distinct from walking around town. I don't think there is much equal protection issue here either... anybody can fish.

I had never really latched onto the hunting/fishing exemption to 12025 since I don't do either. Can I really plant a fishing pole in the sand at the beach, load up a pistol, and conceal it? I mean sure, the LEO drama that ensues is something to avoid right now (CGF seems busy enough).

There is another exemption that are more interesting (apologies for the deprecated section numbers, I'm behind).

The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly from, that production or event.

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this is superior in every way:

1. You can film a movie anywhere.
2. There is no requirement to be unloaded in transit.
3. With today's technology it's entirely possible to meet the requirement at all times.

It would be relatively inexpensive to outfit every Calguns member with a tiny camera that would record at all times. We could film a documentary of lawful concealed firearm usage. I'm sure we'd eventually get footage of somebody stopping a crime with their carry weapon.

I imagine that you'd still have trouble with GFSZ's without a legit LTC.

taperxz
09-05-2011, 9:56 PM
I don't think that any court would dispute the fact hunting/fishing activities are distinct from walking around town. I don't think there is much equal protection issue here either... anybody can fish.

I had never really latched onto the hunting/fishing exemption to 12025 since I don't do either. Can I really plant a fishing pole in the sand at the beach, load up a pistol, and conceal it? I mean sure, the LEO drama that ensues is something to avoid right now (CGF seems busy enough).

There is another exemption that are more interesting (apologies for the deprecated section numbers, I'm behind).



I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this is superior in every way:

1. You can film a movie anywhere.
2. There is no requirement to be unloaded in transit.
3. With today's technology it's entirely possible to meet the requirement at all times.

It would be relatively inexpensive to outfit every Calguns member with a tiny camera that would record at all times. We could film a documentary of lawful concealed firearm usage. I'm sure we'd eventually get footage of somebody stopping a crime with their carry weapon.

I imagine that you'd still have trouble with GFSZ's without a legit LTC.

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:



(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

I think you miss the point entirely!! Actors to and from can not carry loaded and concealed. Hunters and fisherman can while in the act of hunting or fishing.

The state allows this for personal protection and is a part of 12025. Just because this is not a well known law/exemption does not make it irrelevant. It basically shows that the state for whatever reason allows for loaded concealed carry for those people who are fishing for personal protection with no guidelines what so ever in where it can or can't be used. Hey! Why not Lake Merced in San Francisco? As stated above, the state allows this without application, good cause approval, no morality check, phych check, training ect.

taperxz
09-05-2011, 10:07 PM
Again i am simply pointing out that the state allows for certain classes of people to have concealed carry loaded firearms for personal protection. Its something that could be used in a court of law when applicable, to show that the state has a compelling interest to allow hunters and fisherman the ability to protect themselves with a loaded firearm.

zhyla
09-05-2011, 10:15 PM
Again i am simply pointing out that the state allows for certain classes of people to have concealed carry loaded firearms for personal protection.

And again, I'm stating that you are mistaken here. Hunters and fishermen are not a class; any person in the state can participate in these activities with the same protections.

monk
09-05-2011, 10:18 PM
I imagine that the court would argue "LEA response time is much shorter in a populated city, whereas within a forest or other such remote area, help may be hours, possibly days, away...." I'm sure you can guess the rest.

taperxz
09-05-2011, 10:19 PM
And again, I'm stating that you are mistaken here. Hunters and fishermen are not a class; any person in the state can participate in these activities with the same protections.

No thats not true, they must buy a license first, in order to get a hunting license you must take a class and pass a test. If you are not smart enough to pass the test you may not hunt.

What you are saying is the same a LTC and not everyone can get one of those now can they?

taperxz
09-05-2011, 10:23 PM
I imagine that the court would argue "LEA response time is much shorter in a populated city, whereas within a forest or other such remote area, help may be hours, possibly days, away...." I'm sure you can guess the rest.

Wrong idea again! How about the beach?, all along San Francisco bay? All the local lakes we have. The exemption does not specify where the concealed carry takes place other than while hunting or fishing. I can hunt and fish at the base of the Dumbarton Bridge. The base of Palo Alto CA. I can fish right under the Golden Gate Bridge.

Decoligny
09-05-2011, 11:02 PM
I see where 12025 is exempted so you can carry concealed, but assuming you are hunting/fishing in either a prohibited area of unincorporated territory, or within an incorporated city, just where is the exemption to 12031 listed?

taperxz
09-05-2011, 11:09 PM
Since it is an exemption of 12025... and since it is not spelled out... we are not talking about LOC or UOC. Its a 100% exemption of 12025. So, and i could be wrong it is like having a LTC under the law. Perhaps???

Decoligny
09-05-2011, 11:22 PM
It is not a LTC under 12050, if I read it correctly it only exempts you from 12025 which is striclty carrying concealed. I do not see where it exempts 12031 and allows loaded carry.
PC 12031 specifically exempts license holders authorized under 12050. It says nothing about hunting/fishing.

I think this may be a common misconception. You are told you can carry concealed and the natural assumption is you can also carry loaded. This is not the case under my understanding of the applicable codes (PC & F&G) except where you are already allowed to carry loaded under 12031. So, if you can LOC in a particular area, then while hunting/fishing you can carry concealed and loaded, otherwise you can only carry concealed and unloaded.

cmth
09-06-2011, 4:48 AM
Hunting and fishing licenses allow you to carry concealed; they do not allow you to carry loaded. PC 12027(g) only exempts you from PC 12025 (concealed firearm), it does not exempt you from PC 12031 (loaded firearm). You may only carry concealed and loaded with a hunting or fishing license if it is otherwise lawful to discharge a firearm where you currently are. Basically anywhere LOC is permitted. If you get caught LCCing with a fishing permit in a prohibited area as defined by PC 12031, you will be charged with violating PC 12031 but not PC 12025.

donw
09-06-2011, 7:04 AM
That's MY take on it. Here's why, We are allowed to carry loaded and concealed while fishing and hunting. FOR WHAT REASON??

99.9% of hunting takes place with a long arm. What purposed did the legislators have when allowing hunters and fisherman the ability to carry concealed and loaded? Not all hunting and fishing takes place in the boonies where some might say to protect themselves from lions and tigers and bears!! The law makes no such reference to where you can carry while taking part in these activities.

The ironic part of all this is that you can carry concealed and loaded with a license to fish and hunt. A license that the state who issues it will not acknowledge that same license when purchasing a firearm!! So you can carry for self defense with this license but not purchase a firearm with this license.

Additionally we all know that with a LTC, you don't need an HSC card. If you have a hunting or fishing license, you are allowed to carry under the LTC law for loaded concealed carry, why aren't people allowed to bypass the HSC if they have a hunting or fishing license, and conceal a gun, that is used for self defense purposes??

Your thoughts...

your logic and common sense is "Right on" here...much more so than most California legislators care to rationally, or are capable of using.

that being said...many, if not most, who are interested in SD/HD are not hunters or fishermen and do not attain hunting/fishing licenses.

how would you explain that loaded glock in your back pack in the shopping mall with your hunting/fishing license? i, somehow, don't think the local laws/LE would go for it...

taperxz
09-06-2011, 7:17 AM
It is not a LTC under 12050, if I read it correctly it only exempts you from 12025 which is striclty carrying concealed. I do not see where it exempts 12031 and allows loaded carry.
PC 12031 specifically exempts license holders authorized under 12050. It says nothing about hunting/fishing.

I think this may be a common misconception. You are told you can carry concealed and the natural assumption is you can also carry loaded. This is not the case under my understanding of the applicable codes (PC & F&G) except where you are already allowed to carry loaded under 12031. So, if you can LOC in a particular area, then while hunting/fishing you can carry concealed and loaded, otherwise you can only carry concealed and unloaded.

Look at the law and see how it makes reference to the firearm having to be unloaded while in transport of a vehicle or to and from there destination.

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

The law seems to have the intent of making sure the guns are unloaded to and from but not during. Just sayin.

taperxz
09-06-2011, 7:21 AM
your logic and common sense is "Right on" here...much more so than most California legislators care to rationally, or are capable of using.

that being said...many, if not most, who are interested in SD/HD are not hunters or fishermen and do not attain hunting/fishing licenses.

how would you explain that loaded glock in your back pack in the shopping mall with your hunting/fishing license? i, somehow, don't think the local laws/LE would go for it...

No one is saying this and you must be in the act of hunting or fishing.

The simple point is, but it keeps getting derailed, is that California allows for loaded concealed carry and for personal protection. Its the opposite of what it takes to get a LTC!!

Why should a fisherman be able to carry concealed and loaded but a non fisherman would have to apply for a LTC.

GrizzlyGuy
09-06-2011, 7:27 AM
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this is superior in every way:

1. You can film a movie anywhere.
2. There is no requirement to be unloaded in transit.
3. With today's technology it's entirely possible to meet the requirement at all times.


It isn't superior because all of the 12026.2 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.2.html) exemptions have this limitation:

(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.

My 'redneck LTC' (12027 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html) (g) + hunting/fishing licenses) does not require a locked container, does not limit me to unloaded carry while actually hunting or fishing, and the gun can literally be shoved into a jacket pocket if I want to.

Hunting and fishing licenses allow you to carry concealed; they do not allow you to carry loaded. PC 12027(g) only exempts you from PC 12025 (concealed firearm), it does not exempt you from PC 12031 (loaded firearm). You may only carry concealed and loaded with a hunting or fishing license if it is otherwise lawful to discharge a firearm where you currently are. Basically anywhere LOC is permitted. If you get caught LCCing with a fishing permit in a prohibited area as defined by PC 12031, you will be charged with violating PC 12031 but not PC 12025.

Spot on. A real LTC gets you past 12031 while a redneck LTC does not.

Mikeb
09-06-2011, 8:46 AM
I said that with the understanding that others knew what i meant in regards to when a person can do this! While engaged in the act of hunting and fishing;)

It is still allowed by the state for self defense of a certain class of people who have been licensed to engage in that activity. I should also not that the state allows this conduct with no prior training of a firearm, no approval from a sheriff, no good cause statement, no questioning of moral character ect. The state does in fact allow this conduct and for no other reason than for self defense.

Shhh don't tell 'em. I bet if Delione (sp) read the fish and game regs he'd wet himself.
Mike

Spelunker
09-06-2011, 10:08 AM
In order to hunt wild game you MUST have a license. I also wonder if juveniles are also allowed to conceal carry while hunting or fishing???

That is incorrect, to hunt rattlesnake there is no hunting or fishing license required. BTW reptiles are covered by the fishing license.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/FreshFish-Mar2011/ccr-t14-ch2-art4-sec5_60.html


5.60. REPTILES.

(b) No sportfishing license is required for the sport take of any rattlesnake.

(c) Open season: All year

(d) Hours: Reptiles may be taken at any time of day or night.

(e) Methods of take:
(1) Reptiles may be taken only by hand, except as provided in subsections (e)(2) and (3) below, or by the following hand-operated devices:
(A) Lizard nooses.
(B) Snake tongs.
(C) Snake hooks.
(2) Rattlesnakes may be taken by any method.

NytWolf
09-06-2011, 10:48 AM
The ironic part of all this is that you can carry concealed and loaded with a license to fish and hunt. A license that the state who issues it will not acknowledge that same license when purchasing a firearm!! So you can carry for self defense with this license but not purchase a firearm with this license.
With that logic, even a felon can carry. Felons aren't prohibited from fishing.

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.


Additionally we all know that with a LTC, you don't need an HSC card. If you have a hunting or fishing license, you are allowed to carry under the LTC law for loaded concealed carry, why aren't people allowed to bypass the HSC if they have a hunting or fishing license, and conceal a gun, that is used for self defense purposes??

Your thoughts...

In the past, one of the exemptions from having an HSC was a hunting license. And if I'm correct, the only way someone under 18 can purchase a long gun was to possess a valid hunter safety card.

I guess that was when the legislature was more sensible.

Decoligny
09-06-2011, 1:18 PM
Look at the law and see how it makes reference to the firearm having to be unloaded while in transport of a vehicle or to and from there destination.

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

The law seems to have the intent of making sure the guns are unloaded to and from but not during. Just sayin.

Look at the very first portion of the section: PC 12027 - Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following: ...

PC 12025 is the ONLY section of PC being exempted by 12027. All of the paragraphs in 12027, (a - j) are simply defining when PC 12025 does not apply.

PC 12027 (g) does not address carrying loaded and concealed while hunting/fishing due to the fact that IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES is it legal to do so. Those circumsances are listed in PC 12031.

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

So, if you are not in any public place or any public street in an incorporated city, and you are not in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory, you can legally conceal a loaded firearm while hunting or fishing. However, while you are transporting to/from hunting, even in an area where loaded carry is authorized, if you conceal while transporting it must be unloaded per 12027.

If however, you ARE in one of the places listed in PC 12031, and you are carrying loaded and concealed, you are guilty of carrying a loaded firearm in violation of PC 12031.

Cokebottle
09-06-2011, 5:53 PM
And again, I'm stating that you are mistaken here. Hunters and fishermen are not a class; any person in the state can participate in these activities with the same protections.
The purchase of the hunting or fishing license creates the "class", just as spending the time and money to go through the police academy creates a "class"

Cokebottle
09-06-2011, 6:01 PM
Look at the law and see how it makes reference to the firearm having to be unloaded while in transport of a vehicle or to and from there destination.

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

The law seems to have the intent of making sure the guns are unloaded to and from but not during. Just sayin.
I see where they are coming from.

The problem is, it does not specify that LCC is permitted.
It simply specifies the UCC is permitted when going to or returning (as opposed to the normal UOC or LUCC)

They're right... I don't see an exemption to 13031 other than those already provided for within 13031

Now... why is the question.
UOC is legal.
LOC is legal where exempted under 13031

Why does 12027 need to specify that CC is permitted when either UOC or LOC is already legal? 12027 only adds the legality of concealed carry.

ballistics101
09-06-2011, 6:32 PM
So while fishing with a valid fishing lic. At a local lake such as silverwood, puddingstone etc. I can unloaded conceal carry with a loaded mag in my pocket not attached to the firearm? Don't certain public lakes have a no firearms clause?