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View Full Version : Standardization of protected arms across country.


nicki
09-04-2011, 11:50 AM
We have many posts about SBR's, SBS's, conversions back and forth from pistol to rifle and back again.

Seems to me that since US citizens often travel between different states, that different firearms laws create undue burdens on our right to self defense.

My impression of the whole short barrel rifle/shotgun issue is that probably the original intent of the NFA was to tax "handguns" out of existence and the whole issue with "SBS's and "SBR's" was to penalize anyone who would take a full size gun and cut it down to a "concealable arm" size.

We have found through historical records that the NFA in original form would have gone after handguns also which leads me to believe that the whole SBR/SBS issue was put in to prevent end runs around a handgun ban.

Unless the courts lower the second amendment to "rational basis" review, exactly what is the "compelling public" interest to restrict SBR/SBS arms?

Thanks to the "Brady Bunch", all gun sales, regardless of wheter they are long arms or short arms, go through the same insta check in all 50 states.

Had the original NFA passed in original form, legal arguments for the SBR/SBS would go like the following.

The argument that long guns could be bought mail order by anyone withour criminal or mental health background checks could be argued in 1934, thus if we didn't do something about SBR/SBS's, people could make hidden guns without getting the fed tax stamp.

Today, none of those arguments would have any legal merit.

1. Handguns are not covered by the NFA and you can have handguns in the same caliber as rifles.

2. You are limited on shotguns due to bore size. Anything over 50 caliber is classified as a "destructive device" unless it is for a sporting purpose weapon.

Since the 12 guage shotgun is the most "common shotgun round", perhaps that is another case challenge. A Saiga 12 with a compensated 12 inch barrel would make an awesome CQCB arm, especially with those 20 round drums.

Nicki

Uxi
09-04-2011, 12:07 PM
Ideally the entire thing would go away as an unconstitutional infringement. Commerce clause indeed. Destructive devices? What about the privately owned artillery used by the Patriots?

Realistically, I'd like to see the NFA amended/adjusted to make the lower limit on length for long arms reduced to at least 14.5" since that's in common military use.

bwiese
09-04-2011, 12:17 PM
Folks,

Let's get airms in common use that are not 'dangerous AND unusual' nailed down to an initial happy point.

Once semiauto firearms are shown to be common, tranditional

SBRs/SBSes etc. are down the line, and I always wonder about the people clamoring for them when we still have much to fix here just on semiauto bans and CCW and Roster.

Let's get California back to 1988 first, then we can go form there.

GettoPhilosopher
09-04-2011, 12:28 PM
Folks,

Let's get airms in common use that are not 'dangerous AND unusual' nailed down to an initial happy point.

Once semiauto firearms are shown to be common, tranditional

SBRs/SBSes etc. are down the line, and I always wonder about the people clamoring for them when we still have much to fix here just on semiauto bans and CCW and Roster.

Let's get California back to 1988 first, then we can go form there.

It's funny....I agree and disagree with you here.

On the one hand, I completely agree. Things like SA bans, mag limits, handgun rosters, LTC shenanigans, etc all need to go away first, and to even start ranting about SBRs/MGs/DDs/etc is grossly premature.

On the other hand though...I think the discussion and debate is necessary to remind us what we're fighting for and what we've lost. I was discussing the AOW workaround for SBS' and AR pistols the other day with a friend, and it hit me....in a sense, they'd won. I thought in categories like "rifle", "pistol", "shotgun", "SBR", and "SBS". The absurdity of the whole structure just hit me.....why do we even have these categories? There are rifles that shoot pistol rounds, pistols made with the same receivers as rifles, shotguns that shoot slugs....the entire structure is absolutely nonsensical. So a 7.5" AR pistol is a common arm, but the 11.5" or 14.5" M4 carbines carried by our military aren't? A 1986 M60 (NFA registered) is ok, but a three round burst M16A4 (post 86) isnt?

So yeah, I agree. This whole discussion is completely premature. But I think it's necessary, from time to time, if only to remind us of how far we have to go.

yellowfin
09-04-2011, 1:00 PM
The SBR/SBS classification certainly isn't narrowly tailored to serve a compelling interest, that's for sure.

Uxi
09-04-2011, 1:21 PM
So yeah, I agree. This whole discussion is completely premature. But I think it's necessary, from time to time, if only to remind us of how far we have to go.

Then OTOH, think of what getting an incorporated SCOTUS ruling on the completely asinine and arbitrary NFA could do for everyone here and in Free States alike. It could render jumping through the other hoops completely unnecessary. Sure, it's probably not a legal strategy for CGF, but how long will we maintain the Heller majority... if Barry manages to win a second term, a California/9th Hail Mary might be the best strategy compared to crawling forward a couple incremental inches elsewhere.

Maestro Pistolero
09-04-2011, 1:25 PM
Standardizing which arms are protected can cut two ways. We might not like the result in NV as much as they would in say, CA.

dvcrsn
09-04-2011, 3:06 PM
in the medium to long term, wouldn't an equal protection approach in combination with the common use standard be effective in getting rid of the AWB and approved handgun list

Mute
09-04-2011, 3:17 PM
I think Bill nailed it. We would all love to see easier access to SBR/SBS. This is on the radar for those who are fighting at the legal front lines. They're just taking it in a progression that will lead to victory instead of setbacks.

hoffmang
09-04-2011, 4:54 PM
I think Bill nailed it. We would all love to see easier access to SBR/SBS. This is on the radar for those who are fighting at the legal front lines. They're just taking it in a progression that will lead to victory instead of setbacks.

Everyone is aware of the arguments, but we've got to win things like Peņa first so that we have access to evil dangerous guns like the Ruger LCP or the Hi-Standard 9 shot Buntline revolver... :rolleyes:

-Gene

nicki
09-04-2011, 4:59 PM
First, I agree with Bill that we should do all the low hanging fruit first.

The whole SBR/SBS/AOW thing is something that we should put on the backburner till we get our foundation built first.

Personally I would like to see the "taxing authority" of the Federal government subject to more restraints.

Specifically, the taxes that are collected should be related to some form of government services performed. After all, isn't taxation without representation tyranny?

The original NFA tax wasn't designed to collect taxes, it was designed to make an end run around the bill of rights.

If the government can do this on the second, they can do it on the rest of the bill of rights too, so it is a power that the government has demonstrated that they have and will abuse, so it needs to be curtailed.

What if we created a "national blogger act" where you had to pay a special tax to be a "blogger" and the "tax" was 10 ounces of gold (1934, gold 20USD oz).

The other issue of course is the "Commerce Clause".

I would build alliances with others and go after these items first before making an attack on the Hughes Act and the NFA itself.

The next election presidential election will be critical, if Obama gets reelected then we better pray that our 5 stay in good health.

Who the republicans nominate will be a big factor, quite frankly I don't trust Romney should he get the nomination. I will reserve comments on Perry for now.

The only two I trust are Ron Paul/Gary Johnson and if the republican party picks those either of those two and either of them are the president, then we have to go full throttle on all gun cases.

Nicki

Nicki

yellowfin
09-04-2011, 5:59 PM
Perry would probably be pretty good for us on 2A and court appointments, so that's 3 possibilities out of the field. We have GOT to keep both Zero AND Romney out of the White House--the latter will undoubtedly be just as bad as the former with judicial nominations.

Everyone is aware of the arguments, but we've got to win things like Peņa first so that we have access to evil dangerous guns like the Ruger LCP or the Hi-Standard 9 shot Buntline revolver... :rolleyes:

-GeneOh yeah, I was curious, where are we in that snail crawl now? I see an order for a "status update." Updated briefs since so many court decisions have happened between then and the previous filings?