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View Full Version : Gun locks are not required for handgun purchases...


Anchors
09-04-2011, 3:07 AM
EDIT: See post #4 for the quick and painless version.

A vendor thread got me thinking...
I know you must supply a gun lock and a receipt from the last 30 days, as this is a federal requirement and California's safe affidavit is not a federal document and is not acceptable for handguns (long guns are fine, obviously).

Here is the information in the thread:

This is the response I got from the BATFE when I asked:

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Washington, DC 20226
DEC 8, 2008
903010:LHB
5300

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx:

This is in response to your letter to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your letter, you asked if the California State Form, Affidavit Stating Ownership of an Acceptable Gun Safe or Lock Box. is an acceptable form for customers in lieu of purchasing an 800+-pound full safe.

As you may know, a major mission of ATF is enforcement of the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), its subsequent amendments, and other Federal firearms laws. A significant part of the GCA concerns the requirements pertaining to the manufacture, importation, distribution, possession, and sale of firearms.

Section 921 (a)(34)(C) of Title 18 of the United States Code (U.S.C.) defines a secure gun storage or safety device as a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm, and that designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, combination, or other similar means. 18 U.S.C. 922(z), regarding secure gun storage or safety device, states in part that it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun at the time of the firearm sales transaction.

The form used by the State of California Department of Justice with the standards set forth by section 977.50 of the California Code of Regulations may comply with California laws but does not comply with the laws and regulations set forth by ATF. This form is not an ATF form and is not an acceptable form in lieu of presenting a secure gun storage or safety device at the time of each firearm sales transaction.

We regret that our response was not more positive. If you should have any further questions, we invite you to review our Web site at www.atf.gov. You may also contact our office at (202) 648-7090.

Sincerely yours,


Raymond G. Rowley
Chief, Firearms Programs Division

So, although the ATF recognizes that the CA Safe Affidavit is a legal document, they won't accept it because it is not one of "their" legal documents. If you don't want another lock to add to your collection just bring in your safe and you are good to go. ;)

My response in thread:
I've known about the handgun lock requirement for a while. This is true of every FFL I've been to in California...but this has me thinking...

The ATF lists "gun case" and "lock box" on there...so couldn't one present their gun case or lock box to satisfy the ATF AND fill out a safe affidavit to satisfy California (assuming you have both, which I do)?

If not, pro-tip: Sell your lock to someone else and buy it back, making a receipt for the second transaction. This is 100% legal and I do it every single time that I buy a firearm.

Considering you often need a locking case to pickup a handgun in California anyway, this wouldn't be too hard...but does is satisfy all the requirements? and if it doesn't....where and why not?



.

CHS
09-04-2011, 6:47 AM
Actually the "from within the last 30 days" part is to comply with California. The feds just need a lock. They don't care if it's DOJ approved, where it came from, etc. They JUST need the lock.

If you come in and sign the safe affidavit, you satisfy California law, and if you furnish a lock from WHENEVER or WHEREVER to give to the FFL in order for him to give back to you, it would be legal and satisfy all requirements for a handgun purchase at both the state and federal level.

Anchors
09-05-2011, 5:00 PM
Actually the "from within the last 30 days" part is to comply with California. The feds just need a lock. They don't care if it's DOJ approved, where it came from, etc. They JUST need the lock.

If you come in and sign the safe affidavit, you satisfy California law, and if you furnish a lock from WHENEVER or WHEREVER to give to the FFL in order for him to give back to you, it would be legal and satisfy all requirements for a handgun purchase at both the state and federal level.

But the federal law also says that a case is sufficient.

So wouldn't an affidavit for California and a locking case for the feds be adequate?

Librarian
09-05-2011, 5:55 PM
But the federal law also says that a case is sufficient.

So wouldn't an affidavit for California and a locking case for the feds be adequate?

Yes.

Anchors
09-05-2011, 9:52 PM
Yes.

So how do we convince FFLs that trigger locks aren't required by law?
lol...

Librarian
09-05-2011, 10:34 PM
So how do we convince FFLs that trigger locks aren't required by law?
lol...

Show them how the BATFE auditors will accept the black-letter of the Federal law in 18 USC 922(z) and 18 USC 921(a)(34). There are still no implementing regulations from the 1998 law!

Since that seems to be impossible, I don't think we can do the convincing.

Anchors
09-06-2011, 9:09 PM
Show them how the BATFE auditors will accept the black-letter of the Federal law in 18 USC 922(z) and 18 USC 921(a)(34). There are still no implementing regulations from the 1998 law!

Since that seems to be impossible, I don't think we can do the convincing.

That sucks.
I guess until trigger lock sales go down, I'm just stuck selling and buying back my trigger locks whenever I pickup a handgun.

WDE91
09-06-2011, 9:49 PM
Ryan you should sell the locks to famous dead celebrities :shifty:
they are your imaginary friends

duggan
09-06-2011, 10:03 PM
I take the gun out to my vehicle and secure it, then go back inside and return the lock. Did this exact thing on Saturday, went back inside and told the guy "I just bought this gun lock and it turns out I didn't need it".

steelrain82
09-06-2011, 10:05 PM
The one time I bought a pistol it came with a lock. But I still had to buy one. I figured I was hustled. But shouldn't that count as the lock?

ETD1010
09-06-2011, 11:10 PM
The one time I bought a pistol it came with a lock. But I still had to buy one. I figured I was hustled. But shouldn't that count as the lock?

DOJ told me is was, but unless the FFL in questions goes out of there way to check things like this (instead of insisting they have to doing it this way) it wont' matter.

knerona
09-06-2011, 11:26 PM
I'm awaiting to pick up my brand new-used Glock 22 from jail next week. I was told I needed a lock that was purchased within 30 days or the brand and model of an approved safe that I either have or bought.

The Glock came with a lock, so all I need to do is provide the make an model of my gun safe.

They did not require a receipt or anything for the safe.

Works for me.

Z28
09-07-2011, 12:28 AM
I usually just buy a $5 lock at walmart and return it the next day.

mrrsquared79
09-07-2011, 12:50 AM
Solution here-> http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6974488&postcount=58

I don't give a rat's @$$ if they flip out or not, I'm not breaking any laws and they are in compliance with all the laws.

FYI, an indoor gun range/gunsmith in Orange, CA doesn't like this procedure! :facepalm:

Anchors
09-07-2011, 12:51 AM
I'm awaiting to pick up my brand new-used Glock 22 from jail next week. I was told I needed a lock that was purchased within 30 days or the brand and model of an approved safe that I either have or bought.

The Glock came with a lock, so all I need to do is provide the make an model of my gun safe.

They did not require a receipt or anything for the safe.

Works for me.

Technically, you don't need an approved safe since you "bought" a new trigger lock. Buying a new lock covers both CA and federal requirements in one swoop.
My point is more for PPTs, where the gun might not still have the lock it came with.
Then the home safe and locking gun case should suffice, but every shop I've been to (even the good ones that know the law) still make you buy or supply the trigger lock..

ZirconJohn
09-07-2011, 1:01 AM
Hmmm... I like this thread...:yes:

Arondos
09-07-2011, 5:10 AM
I like that idea. I will just sell one of my locks to my wife for $1 then have her sell it back to me for $1 and print a receipt. Yet another useless CA gun law.

morrcarr67
09-07-2011, 5:22 AM
I usually just buy a $5 lock at walmart and return it the next day.

That's what I'm gonna do. Picking up my new to me Taurus Tracker tomorrow :D

brianinca
09-07-2011, 5:49 AM
>>>
every shop I've been to (even the good ones that know the law) still make you buy or supply the trigger lock
>>>

Really? I've never had an issue bringing in a locking metal briefcase. Ever. Like, 3 different FFL's and more than a half dozen pistols in the last couple of years.

Regards,
Brian in CA

haole_50
09-07-2011, 7:55 AM
Micro-Vaults work also; and just $20 and lockable.

tenpercentfirearms
09-07-2011, 8:16 AM
I just give you a lock at my gun shop. I have hundreds of Project Childsafe locks that were given to me. I haven't sold a gun lock in like 3 years. I don't care if you have a safe, unless you are getting multiple long guns, you get a free lock. It is less paperwork.

knerona
09-07-2011, 8:56 AM
Technically, you don't need an approved safe since you "bought" a new trigger lock. Buying a new lock covers both CA and federal requirements in one swoop.
My point is more for PPTs, where the gun might not still have the lock it came with.
Then the home safe and locking gun case should suffice, but every shop I've been to (even the good ones that know the law) still make you buy or supply the trigger lock..

The lock that came with the Glock is used (private sale). They aren't requiring me to buy a lock as I have a safe already.

Flintlock Tom
09-07-2011, 9:05 AM
I have bought many handguns online and would "always" just buy a lock at WalMart and return it on my way home. For my latest purchase of a Ruger handgun I asked the seller if he still had the Ruger lock that came with it. He said "I'll look around."
When the gun arrived it had a generic cable lock included and that was good enough for my FFL.
Gussler's, in Santee, is the best by the way.

Blademan21
09-07-2011, 10:09 AM
If you buy a Kahr at Turners,be prepared to fork out extra for a gunlock.Seems that the Kahr's don't have Calif. approved gun locks supplied in their gun cases. I understand they are running a promontion (thanks rollingcode3) for a free mag. Perhaps to make up for the sting of having to buy a lock?

Anchors
09-11-2011, 3:58 PM
I just give you a lock at my gun shop. I have hundreds of Project Childsafe locks that were given to me. I haven't sold a gun lock in like 3 years. I don't care if you have a safe, unless you are getting multiple long guns, you get a free lock. It is less paperwork.

That is awesome 10%!
That is probably the coolest way to do it.
I just tried to use my hand written receipt (bought a trigger lock from my girlfriend, lol) at a retail chain and it is the first time I've been turned down.
Their manager said it has to be a receipt from a retailer because they "have no way of verifying it". I nicely explained the law and even pulled up the retailer's policy online where it simply says "receipt from last 30 days". I offered to call DOJ, but I they are closed on Saturday (which I forgot).
They still automatically added the lock to my PPT total.
I told them I was just going to return it when I picked the gun up and they seemed fine with that.
They were really nice and professional, I just don't think they understood the situation.

The lock that came with the Glock is used (private sale). They aren't requiring me to buy a lock as I have a safe already.

I know that.
It doesn't say you have to buy a new lock. It just says you need a receipt from the last 30 days. If someone sells you a used Glock with all the accessories it came with, they are essentially "selling" you a gun lock as well. Right in front of the FFL as a matter of fact. If you didn't have the trigger lock included with the Glock, your safe would be irrelevant because you would still need a trigger lock as per the feds (or lock box, locking gun case, whatever).

There are two separate requirements for CA and federal.
The safe at home covers California law. Federal law still requires that you have a trigger lock, lock box, steel box, locking gun case, etc for handguns.
The reason they didn't require anything is the used lock the guy gave you with the Glock satisfied the feds and the safe at home made California happy :D

ETA: This is also why in California the "safe affidavit" is good for long guns, but not handguns. In reality, it is good for both to California, but federal law has an additional requirement for handguns

ojisan
09-11-2011, 4:44 PM
10% has more leeway to make his own decisions.
Chain stores do every transaction by rote.
I have seen independents who require a lock and charge over $10 for a $3 lock so they can make a little money on a PPT.
You really have no choice as the dealer does not have to release the gun to you unless you comply with their interpetation of the law.
Just the way it is anymore.

Oh, for the good old days...
;)

Anchors
09-11-2011, 5:11 PM
10% has more leeway to make his own decisions.
Chain stores do every transaction by rote.
I have seen independents who require a lock and charge over $10 for a $3 lock so they can make a little money on a PPT.
You really have no choice as the dealer does not have to release the gun to you unless you comply with their interpetation of the law.
Just the way it is anymore.

Oh, for the good old days...
;)

Yeah pretty much.
They'll learn in time.
They meant well and weren't trying to burn anyone with the trigger lock, I think it was $5, which is a fair price.

Coolguy101
09-11-2011, 7:16 PM
One wrinkle to consider is if the FFL you are purchasing the firearm from is within 1,000 ft of a school. If so, you have to not only have a lock, but the firearm must be locked while transporting it to your vehicle, and may have to remain on the firearm while it is the vehicle depending on the type of vehicle you have (no trunk, etc.).

Anchors
09-12-2011, 12:32 AM
One wrinkle to consider is if the FFL you are purchasing the firearm from is within 1,000 ft of a school. If so, you have to not only have a lock, but the firearm must be locked while transporting it to your vehicle, and may have to remain on the firearm while it is the vehicle depending on the type of vehicle you have (no trunk, etc.).

Technically, you don't need a trigger lock if you have the locking case to comply the GFSZ and you have a safe at home.

So I have a safe. That covers CA law. I have a locked gun case. That covers federal law for picking up a new handgun and covers Gun Free School Zone.
So really, the case is just way better....

I lock every handgun and almost every long gun for every transport anyway.
I don't have a real trunk either.
I takes me five seconds to at least throw some kind of lock on there to give me any kind of plausible deniability.
It just makes way more sense to me than chancing it. I might be right, but I don't feel like explaining it from a jail cell.