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point1
09-03-2011, 7:36 PM
Hello all,

I'm still a noob so pardon me for asking what maybe a stupid or uninformed questions.

I am looking for a good (hopefully not too expensive) .22lr rifle because I want to attend an upcoming Appleseed (one in Corona)

I am looking at a Marlin 795 because of the cost (on sale right now at Turners). I am probably going to add a scope (Barska Plinker-22 Scope 3-9 x 32) along with that.

The other option and it is more expensive is a Savage 93FVSS-XP. Can you guys give me a recommendation, pros or cons with the ones I listed. Feel free to recommend others as well (I shot a 10/22 and really liked it but from what I read the Marlin is just as good)

The Savage is a long shot because it costs quite a bit more (though it comes with optics, not sure if it is any good though)

I'm looking for a good rifle to help me become a better marksman without breaking the bank (cost of ammo, etc...)

thanks in advance!

cbaer5
09-03-2011, 7:41 PM
have you considered a Ruger 10 22? I just bought one for the same reasons and they are on sale too for $210 at turners.

Eljay
09-03-2011, 7:53 PM
The Marlin 795 and the Ruger 10/22 seem to be the two most popular. Isn't the Savage a bolt action? That's definitely not going to make things easy on the timed stuff, although if that's what you want to shoot, go for it.

agroman2001
09-03-2011, 7:58 PM
I have a 795 that I love. I got it from Big 5 for $109 after mail in rebate. I have not had a single problem with it and I've been shooting that Remington gold that everyone seems to hate. Had I known, at the time of purchase, that I could wait and get a 10/22 on sale for around $200. I would have waited. I don't regret the purchase at all, I just think the ruger is a better, nicer looking gun. And there's a lot more parts and accessories for the ruger.

ERdept
09-03-2011, 8:01 PM
Get the 10/22, LOTS of aftermarket.

Marlin has the techsights and stock only as aftermarket.

point1
09-03-2011, 8:01 PM
you are right on the Savage, it is a bolt action... scratch that..

I did consider the Ruger 10/22 but like I mentioned, from what I read the 795 is equal to the task and is less expensive (would rather put the extra cash on scope and ammo)

So 795 plus Barska scope can't be beat?

pennys dad
09-03-2011, 8:08 PM
Hello all,

I'm still a noob so pardon me for asking what maybe a stupid or uninformed questions.

I am looking for a good (hopefully not too expensive) .22lr rifle because I want to attend an upcoming Appleseed (one in Corona)

I am looking at a Marlin 795 because of the cost (on sale right now at Turners). I am probably going to add a scope (Barska Plinker-22 Scope 3-9 x 32) along with that.

The other option and it is more expensive is a Savage 93FVSS-XP. Can you guys give me a recommendation, pros or cons with the ones I listed. Feel free to recommend others as well (I shot a 10/22 and really liked it but from what I read the Marlin is just as good)

The Savage is a long shot because it costs quite a bit more (though it comes with optics, not sure if it is any good though)

I'm looking for a good rifle to help me become a better marksman without breaking the bank (cost of ammo, etc...)

thanks in advance!

Go get it, you have a great combination of tools, add 2 extra mags, sling and you are set.

Raptor3000
09-03-2011, 8:28 PM
Guys,

Barska Plinker-22 Scope 3-9 x 32 or Barska Plinker-22 4X32 scope for Marlin 795?

whats the difference?

thanks

pennys dad
09-03-2011, 9:03 PM
get the 3x9, you will want variable power

AragornElessar86
09-03-2011, 9:15 PM
The shoot is really aimed at a detachable mag, semi auto. Stick with the major names and you'll be fine. The nice thing about 10/22s at Appleseed is that EVERYONE has them there, so if something goes wrong, someone will almost certainly be able to help you get back up and running.

EddieEd
09-03-2011, 10:50 PM
I was thinking about the Appleseed too and want to take it in the Bay area in a month or so.
My understanding is that it's to get you to shoot a target a 500 yrds, isn't a .22 a bit too low on the juice to try for a target at 500 yrds?

I mean for a .22---
Muzzle velocity: 1235 fps. Velocity at 100 yards: 1026 fps

A Quote here:
.22 LR is effective to 150 yards (140 m), though practical range tends to be less. After 150 yards the ballistics of the round are such that the large "drop" will be difficult to compensate.

I mean correct me here, but even though they said a .22 cartridge can have a ballistic range of up to 1.5 miles, you might have to aim at the moon more or less to hit your target. Is this something to use to get your Appleseed patch on a one or two day shoot?
I was just wondering because I wanted to take a Kel Tec SU16 that shoot .223 and I wasn’t sure that would be good enough for 500 yrd targeting.

sevensix2x51
09-03-2011, 10:55 PM
I was thinking about the Appleseed too and want to take it in the Bay area in a month or so.
My understanding is that it's to get you to shoot a target a 500 yrds, isn't a .22 a bit too low on the juice to try for a target at 500 yrds?

I mean for a .22---
Muzzle velocity: 1235 fps. Velocity at 100 yards: 1026 fps

A Quote here:
.22 LR is effective to 150 yards (140 m), though practical range tends to be less. After 150 yards the ballistics of the round are such that the large "drop" will be difficult to compensate.

I mean correct me here, but even though they said a .22 cartridge can have a ballistic range of up to 1.5 miles, you might have to aim at the moon more or less to hit your target. Is this something to use to get your Appleseed patch on a one or two day shoot?
I was just wondering because I wanted to take a Kel Tec SU16 that shoot .223 and I wasnít sure that would be good enough for 500 yrd targeting.

As far as I know, most appleseeds are shot at 25 yards. The targets are just really small, to simulate a 4moa target at up to 4-500yd. Does that make sense?

EddieEd
09-03-2011, 11:52 PM
As far as I know, most appleseeds are shot at 25 yards. The targets are just really small, to simulate a 4moa target at up to 4-500yd. Does that make sense?

Hmm... Didn't know this, it doesn't make sense to me if they want to get you to shoot a target at 500 yrds and it's all simulated.

Shooting actual and shooting simulated is too different animal.

I wouldnít think Iím a pro if I was ranked number one on ďCall of DutyĒ, then get sent to The gulf and get Ivan specials buzzing pass my ear with a number of unknown targets 3 to 5 block away in anywhere of the numerous building from one to 5 stories tall and youíre in a 2 foot hole. Add to that sand kicking, wind blowing, sounds blasting, people yelling and you have to use the head, your pro ranking turns to Jack and ÖÖ.

And yes they have actual video sims for Military to practice on, but Simulated practice is no substitute for actual engagement. The science between the two can be wayyyyy different. That why you get a lot of Silver bars after 4 year of college and theory realize they ainít nothing but bait once theyíve in the field

This hold true for a lot of situations and occupations.

If I shoot a rabbit a 50yrds Iím not going to kid myself and say ďoh cool, it was the same as shooting an elegant at 500 yrdsĒ. I donít know if itís just me but itís just not the same to me.

I canít see them telling people to use a .22 and fire at a small target at 25yrds and pretend you are shooting a .308 at a 500yrd target. Canít say I would be too proud at getting any certificate for that.
Like I said, I guess its just me but it seems a bit strange.

AragornElessar86
09-04-2011, 12:06 AM
There are a couple reasons they do 25m only, but I believe the primary one is just that it gives them a lot more available ranges. It's not a perfect system, but the training is certainly quality and the intent is for you to take what you learn and apply it in whatever situation you find yourself.

YMMV

sevensix2x51
09-04-2011, 12:33 AM
Hmm... Didn't know this, it doesn't make sense to me if they want to get you to shoot a target at 500 yrds and it's all simulated.

Shooting actual and shooting simulated is too different animal.

<snip>

wow, that's a lot of words.

It's actually not much different at all. hitting a one inch silhouette at 25yd or a 20" silhouette at 500yd still requires mastery of the six steps of firing the shot. the sight adjustments are different, and improper form is exaggerated, but the principles of a 4moa shot are the same. that is the whole point of appleseed, to build a proper foundation in the fundamentals of marksmanship, and to learn how marksmanship set America free from oppression. Not to win some award or certificate.

Raptor3000
09-04-2011, 1:20 AM
Guys, one more quick question.

I am picking up my Marlin 795 next sunday, so can i go straight to the range and shoot it or have to clean it before i shoot it?

thanks

AK4me
09-04-2011, 2:22 AM
I used a Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights and a sling to get my Rifleman patch.

send it_hit
09-04-2011, 3:43 AM
Guys, one more quick question.

I am picking up my Marlin 795 next sunday, so can i go straight to the range and shoot it or have to clean it before i shoot it?

thanks

You should be GTG, but you can always run a patch or brush (or both) through it just to be sure. The 795 is a hardy little thing and like most .22's (except super high end and target rifles) don't need a whole lot of TLC. There will always be the few folks who will tell you to clean it after X number of shots etc to "break it in"... but it's a $100 gun for an appleseed shoot... just have fun!

Eljay
09-04-2011, 8:15 AM
It's always a good idea to do a basic field strip and inspection and cleaning and lube pass on a new gun. You don't necessarily have to spend a lot of time on it, but it's better to make sure there's nothing strange going on in there before you shoot it. :-)

re: the 500 yard guy - the fundamentals are the same, and where available the Appleseed folks do known distance shooting at the actual distance. And anyway, it's a 400 yard target (which is maybe an inch on a side). Basically if you can't shoot a 1" group at 25 meters prone I don't know why you would be screwing around at further distances anyway.

EddieEd
09-04-2011, 8:20 AM
wow, that's a lot of words.

It's actually not much different at all. hitting a one inch silhouette at 25yd or a 20" silhouette at 500yd still requires mastery of the six steps of firing the shot. the sight adjustments are different, and improper form is exaggerated, but the principles of a 4moa shot are the same. that is the whole point of appleseed, to build a proper foundation in the fundamentals of marksmanship, and to learn how marksmanship set America free from oppression. Not to win some award or certificate.

Well from what you are saying I guess I might as well go give it a shot (literally) and see if I can learn something worth while. Iím always up to learning something new but I do believe in practical application to acknowledge what you learn.

I really donít care about any awards other then self gratification to oneís own self in knowing you can actually do it, (like bungee jumping, skydiving, hiking the grand canyon, things on your buck list) certain things you canít just read about or just watch the movie to experience.

I would like to Actually shoot to 500yrds, but yes I was wondering about what ranges have a 500 yrds range. I believe there is one here with 400yrds but Iím not sure about 500.

I am curious as to how they grade people to let them know that they have achieved the 500 goal because it says you can keep coming back until you make it.

I believe the last time I qual in the military the scoring was something like this: you needed to score, 140 to 159 for marksman, 160 to 169 for sharpshooter and 170 to 200 expert, 200 being max,. Last time I tried I miss expert by 2 points (age, eyes are just not what they use to be). Out of 150 people doing their quals only 6 hit sharpshooter or above, I was in third. 2 didnít qual at all and one little 2 lb female lost control of her M16 when it went full auto. You can laugh about it now but talk about freaking out the range.
Never got to go back, so this is one reason I was thinking about Appleseed to maybe hone some stills.

Anyone know any base that lets people take the military course in Cali?
Sorry for long post :facepalm:

cmichini
09-04-2011, 8:30 AM
I agree with the 10/22 as a good platform. My version was super simple to putgether and works like a charm. I also like the challenge of open sights.

http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/cmichini/DSCN6438.jpg

sevensix2x51
09-04-2011, 9:00 AM
Well from what you are saying I guess I might as well go give it a shot (literally) and see if I can learn something worth while. Iím always up to learning something new but I do believe in practical application to acknowledge what you learn.

I really donít care about any awards other then self gratification to oneís own self in knowing you can actually do it, (like bungee jumping, skydiving, hiking the grand canyon, things on your buck list) certain things you canít just read about or just watch the movie to experience.

I would like to Actually shoot to 500yrds, but yes I was wondering about what ranges have a 500 yrds range. I believe there is one here with 400yrds but Iím not sure about 500.

I am curious as to how they grade people to let them know that they have achieved the 500 goal because it says you can keep coming back until you make it.

I believe the last time I qual in the military the scoring was something like this: you needed to score, 140 to 159 for marksman, 160 to 169 for sharpshooter and 170 to 200 expert, 200 being max,. Last time I tried I miss expert by 2 points (age, eyes are just not what they use to be). Out of 150 people doing their quals only 6 hit sharpshooter or above, I was in third. 2 didnít qual at all and one little 2 lb female lost control of her M16 when it went full auto. You can laugh about it now but talk about freaking out the range.
Never got to go back, so this is one reason I was thinking about Appleseed to maybe hone some stills.

Anyone know any base that lets people take the military course in Cali?
Sorry for long post :facepalm:

For appleseed rifleman,you take a modified AQT, and you have to score 210 or better out of 250 possible.

If you didnt clean your military test, you still have more to learn. Honestly, it is worth going just to hear the story of April 19, 1775.

If you really want to know what it's all about, hop down into the Appleseed section right here on Calguns, and ask all the questions you want. This thread is about .22's to use, not the validity of the program. :)

Raptor3000
09-04-2011, 9:33 AM
I held both Ruger 10/22 and Marlin 795 at Big 5 yesterday. 10/22 felt nice in the hand because of wood stock, but they are of same size and Ruger will be almost double the cost of Marlin.

Eljay
09-04-2011, 12:45 PM
I held both Ruger 10/22 and Marlin 795 at Big 5 yesterday. 10/22 felt nice in the hand because of wood stock, but they are of same size and Ruger will be almost double the cost of Marlin.

I believe the plastic stocked 10/22s are cheaper.

Personally I like the wood stock, and a 10/22 with a wood stock and tech sights has a pretty similar feel to, say, a M1 Garand - not identical, of course, but a great way to learn quite a bit at tenth the cost of .30-06 ammo.

As noted above part of why people like the 10/22s are the aftermarket parts - after the Appleseed if you get the urge you can turn it into a AR-looking rifle, or you can start putting on match grade parts and head more to the precision end of things, or whatever you want, really. But if that holds no interest to you, may as well get the Marlin.

Eljay
09-04-2011, 12:51 PM
I would like to Actually shoot to 500yrds, but yes I was wondering about what ranges have a 500 yrds range. I believe there is one here with 400yrds but Iím not sure about 500.


As I said above, it's 400, not 500 (which is actually further than the current Army test which I believe is 300 meters max).

ironpete
09-04-2011, 2:32 PM
Hey All,

Just a couple of notes on this thread since it goes all over.
1) Equipment
Most any good working rifle will do, if you're up to the task. I've seen people hit 210+ with bolts (center and rimfire), scopes, iron sights, tube fed, semi-auto and all combinations thereof.

That said each rifle will have strengths and weaknesses.
Ruger 10/22 - Aftermarket accessories, dry fire capable
Marlin 795 - Inexpensive, sling studs, accurate, bolt hold open.

I personally like the fact that I can dry fire my Rugers. I also like the mag releases on the Rugers better. On the other hand for the price of a 10/22 you can get a fully outfitted 795 (peep sights and sling) with money left over for 1000 rounds of ammo.

2) Simulated distance
If you can't keep it on a quarter at 25 meters you don't have a hope in Hades in keeping it to 4 inches at 100 yards. Even bench rest shooters who can easily shoot a < 1 inch group at 100 yards can't necessarily hit a quarter at 25 meters while changing positions and targets while timed. Practicing fundamentals with a rimfire 22 is much cheaper than practicing with any centerfire...even if you reload.

Appleseed absolutely encourages shooting at distance (400 yards for the AQT and beyond). Unfortunately most ranges in California don't offer or rent full distance facilities for exclusive use. Also realize that it takes some time to keep walking out to 300 yards for a 65 second course of fire. In most cases time would be better spent working on fundamental marksmanship.

If you want to learn fundamentals go to a 25 meter Appleseed. If you want to shoot at distance keep your eyes peeled for Rifleman Boot Camps (RBC) and Known Distance (KD) Appleseeds.

3) Awards
The Rifleman's patch is awarded for:
a) hitting a score of 210 on our scaled AQT (at 25 meters) within the rules.
b) hitting a score of 200 on our full distance AQT (at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards) within the rules.

The qualification of Known Distance, doing a full distance AQT (100, 200, 300 and 400 yards) is a separate thing.

I am curious as to how they grade people to let them know that they have achieved the 500 goal because it says you can keep coming back until you make it.

You achieve the 500 yard goal when you hit the 500 yard target. As you can see from above we differentiate between having the skills (Rifleman's Patch) and actually doing it (KD)...even amongst instructors. Giving awards for doing a "feel good" job is not our business. In Appleseed there are many patches/awards. The only one you can buy is the Issac Davis oval...the rest (Rifleman, California Rocker, KD, Instructor, Shoot Boss, 1K club, etc) can ONLY be earned.

-Peter

-hanko
09-05-2011, 8:34 AM
/thread.

EddieEd, get to the appleseed website and read a bit. Go to the shoot with you mind wide open and forget anything you think you know about shooting...;)

Swmbo and I did the shoot last fall. She used irons, had no prior training in position shooting, and finished at 170 something after a Sat/Sun shoot...half of which was done in solid rain. I came out at 192, so I need more practice...

Around 25 or so of us shot, seems like the appleseed rifle here is a 10/22. I shot mine bone stock...Modified guns seemed to be stocked with either the Hogue rubber-grippy stock, or the TAPCO pistol grip thing. Most picked Tactical Solutions sights. I saw no solid difference between bull barrel and standard barrel guns, but that's more shooter than rifle. Most had also upgraded to a PC or Volq trigger and/or hammer.

You'll need a good sling, at least 2 mags (4 would be preferable), and I'd suggest a slightly extended mag release. You can go cheap on scopes as it's a rimfire and relatively short range. Bring something to lie on when you shoot from prone.

The price difference between the Marlin and Ruger will be forgotten in a month or so...I'd take the Ruger due to ease of modification (check rimfirecentral.com) as well as easier mag changes.

hth

-hanko

EddieEd
09-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Thx guys for info, I was doing a bit more reading, I’m always up for learning what I can. It’s not what I was thinking at first but I think I’ll check it out. My shooting in the military was good but I believe for quals the ranges were something like 200yrds when available or a 25yrd range using appropriate targets, and setup and timed like the Appleseed program but not for distance.
My thing now is I guess I shouldn’t use the centerfire I was thinking about, but as far as a .22 all I got is an AR-7. And although I like it for what it is, for this type of target shooting I don’t think it will do.
That means I might have to pick up another .22. I prefer not to spend too much on a .22 because if the price start getting to high I’ll Just turn around and buy that PX4 Storm I been eyeing for the pass few weeks.
If I can find a good price on a 10/22 I would go with that. Most of the info on-line for stat and price are 2 to 5 years old and a lot can change in 2 years. Local listed gun shop don’t give prices of their gun on-line other then Big-5 when they have a sale so you have to go to the shop which can be a pain, miles away and miles apart.
Wish there was a Turner’s around my area.

whipkiller
09-06-2011, 2:01 PM
Hmm... Didn't know this, it doesn't make sense to me if they want to get you to shoot a target at 500 yrds and it's all simulated.

Shooting actual and shooting simulated is too different animal.


If I shoot a rabbit a 50yrds Iím not going to kid myself and say ďoh cool, it was the same as shooting an elegant at 500 yrdsĒ. I donít know if itís just me but itís just not the same to me.


Like I said, I guess its just me but it seems a bit strange.

What is an Elegant, and why are you shooting it?:confused:

dtjester
09-06-2011, 2:27 PM
Point1 -

Are you going to the Appleseed in Corona on Sept. 17-18? If so I will be at that one and will be using a Marlin 795 with Tech Sights, so if you have any issues with magazines or whatever, I have some.

EddieEd
09-06-2011, 6:30 PM
What is an Elegant, and why are you shooting it?

:kest::oops::facepalm:
spelling checking@#%$& :banghead:
OK, Ok
They are like a chupacabra but a lot bigger. It has a plume of colorful hair on its back side and before it leaps to attack you it walks slowly toward you, its front legs crossing like a runway model, (like some cats) so it looks elegant. They use to roam the northern parts of Russia near Tunguska, not sure about them now.:rolleyes:
They are good eating too, if you cook it right it taste like chicken catetori.
But I wouldn't use a .22 to hunt them, you need something bigger... Like an Elephant gun. :thumbsup: