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darthnugget
09-01-2011, 9:56 AM
First let me say that I DO NOT want to break the law in any way and I want to confirm. There is much confusion in the laws and I want to make sure that I will comply to be able to make an AR pistol.

These questions/statements are to confirm with what I have already read and went through the handgun flow chart, and the rifle flow chart.

1. Is it legal in California to make an AR pistol as a single shot pistol from a 80% lower (that I will complete) as long as it has a magazine lock, has not been made into a rifle first, and does not have a forward grip?

2. Is it legal to put a free float gripping device around the barrel of an AR pistol if you have a magazine lock on the pistol? Or to put a quad rail around the barrel?

3. If you make/own an AR pistol you can not also own any armor piercing rounds like green or black tips in that same caliber, as it is not legal in California to have armor piercing pistol rounds.

4. Because this weapon is classified as a pistol, then it does not have to be registered nor would I need to pay the registration and the NFA tax?

Thanks for all the assistance, I enjoy this hobby, however I want to be a legal citizen first and above all else.

djleisure
09-01-2011, 10:10 AM
First let me say that I DO NOT want to break the law in any way and I want to confirm. There is much confusion in the laws and I want to make sure that I will comply to be able to make an AR pistol.

These questions/statements are to confirm with what I have already read and went through the handgun flow chart, and the rifle flow chart.

1. Is it legal in California to make an AR pistol as a single shot pistol from a 80% lower (that I will complete) as long as it has a magazine lock, has not been made into a rifle first, and does not have a forward grip?
Yes.
2. Is it legal to put a free float gripping device around the barrel of an AR pistol if you have a magazine lock on the pistol? Or to put a quad rail around the barrel?
Yes.
3. If you make/own an AR pistol you can not also own any armor piercing rounds like green or black tips in that same caliber, as it is not legal in California to have armor piercing pistol rounds.
I have not heard of this law or seen any relevant PC, but I also haven't thought to look for it. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me on the subject will be along shortly. (most likely Librarian :))
4. Because this weapon is classified as a pistol, then it does not have to be registered nor would I need to pay the registration and the NFA tax?
It does not have to be registered because you made it yourself from an 80% lower. There is no NFA tax (it's not an SBR).
Thanks for all the assistance, I enjoy this hobby, however I want to be a legal citizen first and above all else.
Answers in bold.

CHS
09-01-2011, 11:01 AM
SS109/M855 "green tip" IS NOT considered armor piercing ammunition and would be legal to own, possess, and use with an AR pistol or rifle.

Black tip, which is true AP, would be considered armor-piercing handgun ammunition and would not be legal to own or possess with an AR pistol.

darthnugget
09-01-2011, 11:27 AM
Thank you for that clarification, is there documentation for the legality of M855?

SS109/M855 "green tip" IS NOT considered armor piercing ammunition and would be legal to own, possess, and use with an AR pistol or rifle.

Black tip, which is true AP, would be considered armor-piercing handgun ammunition and would not be legal to own or possess with an AR pistol.

darthnugget
09-01-2011, 11:44 AM
Found it from http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/legal_m855legal.html


Fact: "Armor piercing ammunition" is defined in federal law [18 U.S.C. 921(17)(B)] as "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed" of various metals harder than lead, or "a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile." SS-109 bullets used in M855 have a steel tip under the jacket, but they have a lead core.


As if this were not enough BATF has specifically exempted M855/SS-109 along with .30-06 M2 AP.


Straight from the horse's mouth (ATF): http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$x*****busc18.wais&start=1449952&SIZE=48951&TYPE=TEXT

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:

5.56MM (.223) SS-109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

US .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.

CHS
09-01-2011, 11:58 AM
5.56MM (.223) SS-109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.


One thing to note though: M855 is the US designation for a 5.56mm cartridge that uses the 62gr SS-109 bullet. If it's actual M855 designation, it will carry a green tip.

However, many other NATO countries use 5.56mm ammo with the SS-109 bullet, and not all of them paint the tip green. So you can get 62gr SS-109 ammo without any identifying marks on the bullet at all. Same round, but NOT M855 if it doesn't have the green tip. It also might not be loaded to the pressures/velocities of M855 if it's foreign.

Spelunker
09-01-2011, 12:01 PM
"1. Is it legal in California to make an AR pistol as a single shot pistol from a 80% lower (that I will complete) as long as it has a magazine lock, has not been made into a rifle first, and does not have a forward grip?"

Why would you have to make it a single shot first if you build it yourself from an 80%? Cant you just go straight to semi-auto? I thought the single shot sled was to get around the unsafe handgun lists and you would need that if you bought a completed ar pistol.

mrdd
09-01-2011, 12:49 PM
"1. Is it legal in California to make an AR pistol as a single shot pistol from a 80% lower (that I will complete) as long as it has a magazine lock, has not been made into a rifle first, and does not have a forward grip?"

Why would you have to make it a single shot first if you build it yourself from an 80%? Cant you just go straight to semi-auto? I thought the single shot sled was to get around the unsafe handgun lists and you would need that if you bought a completed ar pistol.

Because it is a crime to manufacture an "unsafe handgun". So, you have to build it as single shot.

PC 12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

bwiese
09-01-2011, 12:53 PM
Why would you have to make it a single shot first if you build it yourself from an 80%? Cant you just go straight to semi-auto? I thought the single shot sled was to get around the unsafe handgun lists and you would need that if you bought a completed ar pistol.

You can't really build an 'unsafe handgun' per 12125. (There is perchance a tad of handwaving on aspects of this but let's not worrya about that here...)

So you FIRST build a 12133PC Roster-exempt dimensionally-compliant single shot pistol (6" or longer barrel, 10.5" or longer overall length;
recommended you don't get to 16" barrel length to avoid interfering with other matters.)

The BulletButton maglock AND the zero-round sled or filler mag both work together to avoid both Roster issues AND avoid various prohibited semiauto pistol configurations.

Then, *after* the gun has been assembled into this form, it can subsequently be converted to a legal semauto [i.e., unlock the zero round magazine filler/sled, and replace with a 10rd or less magazine] - as it's perfectly legal to convert a handgun of any type (Rostered, non-Rostered, or Roster-exempt) into any other legal form.

darthnugget
09-01-2011, 1:46 PM
Bill,
Thank you for all that you do for this forum. I don't think I would have ever started this hobby without it as I would not feel legally safe.
Thanks,
Erick

franklinarmory
09-02-2011, 10:16 AM
1. Is it legal in California to make an AR pistol as a single shot pistol from a 80% lower (that I will complete) as long as it has a magazine lock, has not been made into a rifle first, and does not have a forward grip?

2. Is it legal to put a free float gripping device around the barrel of an AR pistol if you have a magazine lock on the pistol? Or to put a quad rail around the barrel?

3. If you make/own an AR pistol you can not also own any armor piercing rounds like green or black tips in that same caliber, as it is not legal in California to have armor piercing pistol rounds.

4. Because this weapon is classified as a pistol, then it does not have to be registered nor would I need to pay the registration and the NFA tax?

1= Yes, but please note that you CAN put a forward vertical grip on it if you keep your OAL over 26". If it is under 26", you can still use the Magpul AFG. In either case, you may want to have a copy of the corresponding ATF letters. (Ours is on our products page, and the AFG letter should come up if you google it.)

2= Yes.

3= Answered by others.

4= Correct. No NFA unless it was a rifle first or unless you wanted an OAL less than 26" and a vertical grip.

Hope that helps. :)