PDA

View Full Version : Darrel Issa on FOX: "Much Higer Than Melson"


tankarian
08-31-2011, 8:10 PM
Video here: http://video.foxnews.com/v/1136345309001/issa-still-many-fast-and-furious-questions/

Higher than Melson = Eric Holder
Much higher than Melson = draw your own conclusions.

OleCuss
08-31-2011, 8:26 PM
Very interesting. Thank you.

I think they tried to set up Melson as a scapegoat and to punish him for cooperating with the investigation.

It feels like I need a tin-foil hat for believing that, but I think that the limited information we have tends to point to the idea that the problem does go up to at least Holder (and probably to the Oval Office).

Pablo22
08-31-2011, 8:27 PM
Holder is a Criminal of the highest order!

wildhawker
08-31-2011, 8:30 PM
Check this out: http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/08/about-that-90-claim.html

meaty-btz
08-31-2011, 8:42 PM
anyone got a link I can actually play for the Fox Issa? Fox is hating on my anti-advert Hosts file..

sholling
08-31-2011, 8:53 PM
Fox has been hitting this story hard. :D

InGrAM
08-31-2011, 9:02 PM
Fox has been hitting this story hard. :D

Good this needs to be exposed. They are the only network with anything to gain by reporting on it. I am waiting for the anti-Fox news people to chime in and find something they don't like about this. lol

Maestro Pistolero
08-31-2011, 10:49 PM
Greta is one of the best questioners I have ever heard. She is on point and drives the respondent to the heart of the matter.

This was pretty hard-hitting.

FastFinger
08-31-2011, 11:17 PM
Very interesting. Thank you.

I think they tried to set up Melson as a scapegoat and to punish him for cooperating with the investigation.

It feels like I need a tin-foil hat for believing that, but I think that the limited information we have tends to point to the idea that the problem does go up to at least Holder (and probably to the Oval Office).


On the contrary - you need a tinfoil hat to not believe that. One so tight that it cuts off oxygen to the brain.

I take issue with Sustern's opening premise, that ATF officials were hoping that F&F would lead them to Narco Kingpins. I think the evidence is pretty clear that that stated goal was a scam. If that was their intention don't you think that they would have had a rudimentary method of keeping track of the firearms one they walked out of the gun shops? But they didn't, once the purchase was made they made zero attempt to follow them. Did they believe that somehow a Narco Boss would walk into a Mexican police station with guns in their pockets? No. Did they think that just recovering a gun would lead them to the Kingpin behind the operation? Why should it? They have thousands of crime scenes and that doesn't seem to lead them to the heavy weights.

Here's what Sustern and most others are missing - the motivation for F&F had little to do with curbing Mexican violence or guns flowing into Mexico. F&F was an engineered crisis designed to produce propaganda to be used to further restrict and hamper gun ownership through increased firearm purchase requirements & restrictions. Period.

And, sadly, to some extent they've succeeded. 18 months ago we all saw the countless news stories about the 90% traced weapons bull. Even today they're using F&F to foist increased documentation on long arm sales in the southwest.

If we give the DOJ the benefit of the doubt and assume they're telling the truth about F&F intentions, they should all be sacked for complete incompetence. But they do not deserve that benefit because it's based on a lie. Based on the evidence they tried to curtail our civil rights and were willing to corrupt the law, commit perjury, and allow US agents and countless Mexicans to be murdered in pursuit of their perverted goals.

I do not believe in the grassy knoll. I do not believe the Twin Towers were packed with explosives. I do believe Holder, and maybe his superior, had an agenda, a craven, cynical, murderous, corrupt conspiracy to further erode our 2A rights.

OleCuss
09-01-2011, 5:11 AM
FastFinger:

Can't say you're wrong.

The way I see it, the only two explanations that would seem to explain the caper would be either (as you pointed out) an attempt to sabotage our RKBA or gross incompetence.

Given the general competence level of our governmental organizations in general and the Obama administration in particular - I still consider gross incompetence to be a viable explanation.

Of course, I find "gross incompetence" to understate the incredible stupidity of the operation if it really was meant to trace and shut down violent Mexican cartels.

ALSystems
09-01-2011, 5:33 AM
FastFinger:

You give a detailed analysis of the true purpose of Fast & Furious.

I agree with you that F&F "was an engineered crisis designed to produce propaganda to be used to further restrict and hamper gun ownership "

Zesty
09-01-2011, 9:01 AM
Haven't watched this episode yet but have it saved on DVR....I did watch the Hannity special a week or so ago and thought that was pretty mindblowing...especially when Issa is questioning Holder, and Holder claims he first heard about Fast and Furious/Gunwalker/Runner no more than 3 weeks ago....then they air the clip of him on Univision bragging about how effective the operation is.....OVER 2 YEARS EARLIER!!!!!!! I agree completely with FastFinger, there is NO WAY this is an accident no one is that incompetant.

Spelunker
09-01-2011, 9:05 AM
FastFinger:

You give a detailed analysis of the true purpose of Fast & Furious.

I agree with you that F&F "was an engineered crisis designed to produce propaganda to be used to further restrict and hamper gun ownership "

While I also agree with this.......

You should never attribute to deviousness that which can be explained by incompetence.

dustoff31
09-01-2011, 9:39 AM
While I also agree with this.......

You should never attribute to deviousness that which can be explained by incompetence.

That's true. But there had to be something to spur them into action, incompetent or not. Bureauocrats at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by some external force.

We know that the eariler reports of the 90% of guns in Mexican crime traced to the US and border state FFLs, was totally discredited. This was obviously a huge embarassment to the adminstration, so they set out to make it so and to have a paper trail to prove it. Even in the face of another incredible embarassment, F&F, they still implemented the multi-long gun reporting scheme.

As others have mentioned, this was and is all about degrading gun rights in the US. It has nothing whatsoever to do with reducing crime in MX.

Mesa Tactical
09-01-2011, 9:56 AM
Given the general competence level of our governmental organizations in general and the Obama administration in particular - I still consider gross incompetence to be a viable explanation.

Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Though this entire sorry saga is certainly a candidate for the What Were They Thinking Award.

FastFinger
09-01-2011, 11:59 AM
I have a very difficult time believing this was just a case of stupidity.

It would be stupid to order guns to be sold illegally and allow them to walk across our border, and then somehow screw up on the plans in place to actually track them as they move around Mexico in and out of the spheres of the alleged targets - Narco kingpins. Having that half baked plan be too complicated, or having Mexican insiders no longer able to track the arms, those would be stupid mistakes.

But to not even have any plans to track the arms until they showed up at a murder scene - that simply is several levels below mere "stupidity", it sinks to the level of retardation, and I don't think even the DOJ employs the mentally handicapped.

Let's take 'em at their word. What did they rationally think would be the outcome? FFL alerts them to a straw purchaser. They order the sale to proceed and have the ID of the buyer. Then... Then... Then what? They don't tail or monitor the straw buyer, they do absolutely nothing - by design - and let the guns go anywhere. (BTW the guns could just as easily have stayed in the USA and might have been used in even more crimes domestically, so how critical is all that paperwork and background checks anyway? Not that important after all it seems.)

Okay - so the plan is working. The guns are gone, they have no idea who the purchaser sold them to, or how they were transferred, so there may not be much they can charge him with. "They were stolen out of my trunk". By their own admission they have zero process in place to keep track of the guns south of the border. In fact, when various US agents complained about that, and begged to inform US reps in Mexico - give them a "heads up" - they were ordered to stand down and keep quiet - not just ordered but threatened.

So, guns walk, passing through unknown channels - channels they did not want to know about. The next opportunity to find any info about the guns would be.... when?

Did they expect Mexican officials to raid suspected crime lord homes and find them fondling the weapons? That just doesn't happen. First, they seldom arrest the top dogs, and when they do they're generally not armed, the peons are, but not the jeffe's. And what if they did pinch a big guy and he had one of the F&F weapons - so what? There's no provable link of where he got that weapon. It could have been passed though Panama, could have been stolen from the original buyers car - who knows what route it took? There was no method in place to track the weapons.

Did they expect to have surveillance video of the Narco kingpins buying and selling the rouge weapons at a Juarez flea market? No - the "plan" was to have them recovered at crime scenes. What purpose would that serve? There's no chain of evidence unique to the recovered weapons that would help ID the kingpin, nothing inherent in the weapons' history other than they can say that they were sold with the blessing of the DOJ.

The only value in that is to use the info, shaky as it is, to try influence regulation and sales of firearms in the USA. And even to do that they had to spin & gin the numbers.

Point out one single benefit, claimed or real, that would result from this rinky dink "operation". Even prosecuting the original buyer would be difficult. There is no other benefit - save the blatant propaganda headlines of "US Guns fuel Murderous Mexican Drug War Inferno!" Followed by editorials "We must stop the flow of easy guns - more paperwork will do the trick..."

The claims that they wanted to follow the guns in order to help ID and bring down drug syndicates are false. There's not one iota of evidence to back that up - to the contrary there's evidence they tried to halt any such attempts.

Or am I missing something?

ckprax
09-01-2011, 1:17 PM
^^^ This. There really is no other explanation.

OleCuss
09-01-2011, 1:45 PM
I have a very difficult time believing this was just a case of stupidity.
.
.
.

Or am I missing something?

I'd say that you are using pretty good logic but that you credit them with more brains and compassion than they deserve.

This administration has consistently exercised some of the stupidest options in foreign policy, economic policy, military policy, etc. Seriously, these guys have no clue as to how the real world really works - and when the guy in the Oval Office is a narcissist with an ego which is constantly fed by the sycophantic press and the swooning groupies, 'tis a recipe for continuously disastrous policies right across the board.

Just watch. When it comes to jobs and the economy it is crystal clear that the administration hasn't a clue - every significant forecast they've made about the effect of proposed policy has proven to be way off base after the policy has been implemented. But in his speech next week Obama will effectively argue that we must double down on the previous disastrous policies - and he will be lauded for this insanity.

Also remember that Obama is incredibly elitist. He also used to hang out with people who thought that the death of 25 million US citizens was acceptable in re-ordering our society into a socialist mecca. The idea that the administration has a deeply ingrained aversion to the loss of life in the pursuit of their goals is not supported by evidence.

So you have someone who thinks that we can trace firearms sold here in the U.S. in order to find the bad guys and prosecute them. Oh, and it will involve the Mexican drug cartels?

Well, as it turns out, we actually do let violent drug cartels have certain contraband so that we can trace the movement and take down more bad guys. And we do this fairly (but not wildly) successfully. And no, I won't tell you how I know this - wouldn't be prudent.

So you have a federal government which believes it is smarter than any government which has ever graced the face of this Earth which knows that material tracking can be useful in mapping and degrading an organized crime organization. They also know that there are plenty of straw purchase occurring but they don't want to prosecute too many of those straw purchasers because they're low level and they're of an ethnicity which they are trying to court for votes. So you decide to use the straw purchasers to find the really big bad guys in Mexico so that you can take them down.

The problem is that theory doesn't necessarily meet with reality. They don't actually have a method for tracking in place and they don't really have a way to deal with the bad guys if they should ever happen to find one.

But you know that there is a measure of incompetence involved in the caper since it would seem pretty likely that if you keep sending enough firearms into Mexico's drug cartels that some of them will eventually be used to kill someone and traced back to the source and the program's cover will get blown. This is a "no, duh" kind of situation.

So I contend that it is crystal clear that incompetence is a part of what happened. I think that inflated egos, a lack of willingness to self-critique or to be critiqued, and a callous disregard for what happens to the non-elites - all could be combined to explain how this F&F mess came down.

I'm not saying that I know that it wasn't effectively a conspiracy to violate our liberties - I don't know enough to say that.

But IMHO, the general incompetence of the current administration is breath-taking in its immensity. Only the general inertia of immense organizations has been able so far to stem some of the carnage.

So in this case a conspiracy is truly possible, but incompetence may be the real culprit.

odysseus
09-01-2011, 1:58 PM
In a world of lawyers and administrative CYA, does anyone here think that Holder let himself be the one and last authority for this cross border arms smuggling international operation?

Incompetent or not, it's not how things work.