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View Full Version : Interfamilial Transfer Pain in The Neck.


titus75
08-31-2011, 7:04 PM
This was covered in ffl forum to a certain point but I would like some more input. A father who is out of state transfers an OR handgun to his son, the father has it shipped to an FFL in Ca. THE ffl does all the proper paperwork and the dros, the son waits ten days and then picks up his OR handgun, he then mails in the IF transfer form (I'm not sure if this is done when he does dros or after or whenever but either way the form has been mailed and doj has it). Now, the son wants to sell his OR handgun, he does a ppt ftf transaction, he's mailed the IF form already so PC has been met. So for what possible reason would the transaction get kicked back? I have scoured the wiki, the doj site and the PC and there is not a single word that says the IF form must be "processed" by doj before this OR handgun can be transferred. I called doj and was told it must be processed into their computer before a PPT is done or it will kick back. The form was submitted almost a month ago and there is apparently a big back log of these, I really don't feel like waiting until christmas to get this deal done. If dros is started and it does kick back then the seller will have to travel all the way back to my ffl to start it over again (or so I've been told) so thats the only reason I haven't just gone ahead and done it to see if it goes thru. The seller has been told the IF form has been received by doj but it's in line behind a whole bunch of others and there is only one person working on them, he's been calling once a week to check on it and other day doj got pissy and told him stop calling and wait for the AG letter. Why should I have to wait to do this if there is not a single word about the need to "process" the form anywhere in the PC?

dantodd
08-31-2011, 7:08 PM
I'm pretty sure you just DROS it at the dealer and wait 10 days. The dealer just punches in Intrafamilial transfer as exemption to roster. No need to fill out the IF form.

Ed_Hazard
08-31-2011, 7:08 PM
Why did they do a IF transfer form ontop of the DROS done by the FFL when the gun was shipped in? If they had it DROS'd to them by the FFL it should allready be on the books in their name and the IF form would seem redundant.

titus75
08-31-2011, 7:13 PM
Why did they do a IF transfer form ontop of the DROS done by the FFL when the gun was shipped in? If they had it DROS'd to them by the FFL it should allready be on the books in their name and the IF form would seem redundant.

According to the PC I read the son has to submit the IF form within 30 days of taking posession of the handgun


(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest,
intestate succession, or other means by one individual to
another if both individuals are members of the same immediate
family and all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within
30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid
mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a
report that includes information concerning the
individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was
obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in
question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant
to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department
of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a
handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or
older.

ke6guj
08-31-2011, 7:13 PM
if it is DROSed at an FFL, you DON"T also do an intra-family registration form. That form is for dealerless transfers (if both parties are CA residents).

Oceanbob
08-31-2011, 7:16 PM
wow...looks like someone gave you folks some bad information.

Once the weapon arrives at the FFL and and Son starts the DROS, waits 10 days are walks out with the Off Roster Handgun...that's it.!! No other forms have to be processed.

The Son can actually sell the weapon the day he picks it up to anyone via private party transfer.

titus75
08-31-2011, 7:20 PM
wow...looks like someone gave you folks some bad information.

Once the weapon arrives at the FFL and and Son starts the DROS, waits 10 days are walks out with the Off Roster Handgun...that's it.!! No other forms have to be processed.

The Son can actually sell the weapon the day he picks it up to anyone via private party transfer.

Thats what I thought, but I called doj and asked point blank "does the IF from have to be submitted into your system or computer or whatever the hell you wanna call it before this handgun can be ppt'ed" and I was told yes otherwise it will kick back, I wanted to say wait a minute that doesn't jibe with PC but the lady was already giving me an attitude.

ke6guj
08-31-2011, 7:22 PM
According to the PC I read the son has to submit the IF form within 30 days of taking posession of the handgun


(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest,
intestate succession, or other means by one individual to
another if both individuals are members of the same immediate
family and all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within
30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid
mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a
report that includes information concerning the
individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was
obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in
question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant
to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department
of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a
handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or
older.

right, if both parties are CA residents and they aren't using an FFL to process the transfer.

12078(c)(2) refers to 12072(d) which is talking about needing to use a dealer to process the transfer.

12072(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

Since they complied with 12072(d), they don't have to deal with 12078(c)(2).

but if they were ignorant of the law and did a DROS and then did an extra intrafamily form, yes, you should wait til the intrafamily form is processed. Otherwise, when you PPT it, it will be registered to you, and then the intrafamily form gets processed and it gets registered to the seller again.

ke6guj
08-31-2011, 7:23 PM
Thats what I thought, but I called doj and asked point blank "does the IF from have to be submitted into your system or computer or whatever the hell you wanna call it before this handgun can be ppt'ed" and I was told yes otherwise it will kick back, I wanted to say wait a minute that doesn't jibe with PC but the lady was already giving me an attitude.I don't see how they would be able to kick it back, since it doesn't need to be "in the seller's name" in order to be successfully PPT'ed to you. Sounds like BS from CADOJ.

But as I mentioned before, since there is an IF form in play, it can mess up your registration if you PPT is processed before th IF form is.

gbran
08-31-2011, 7:26 PM
Why even mess with the interfamilial transfer? If I lived in OR I could sell you a handgun, send it to a CA FFL, get it DROS'd and go thru a 10 day wait and the gun would be yours.

Ed_Hazard
08-31-2011, 7:26 PM
^Yes, because of the out of state resident.

titus75
08-31-2011, 7:27 PM
I don't see how they would be able to kick it back, since it doesn't need to be "in the seller's name" in order to be successfully PPT'ed to you. Sounds like BS from CADOJ.

But as I mentioned before, since there is an IF form in play, it can mess up your registration if you PPT is processed before th IF form is.

When you say mess up do you mean possibly kicked back? At this point my only concern is the trans not getting kicked back, once it's drose'd to me the doj can figure out it's own paperwork bs as far as I'm concerned. Once I have it is there a correction form I can submit?

Cokebottle
08-31-2011, 7:33 PM
You are the buyer?

If so, the seller was given some bad information and is forwarding that to you.

If the IF is submitted, that's it. You don't hear from the DOJ after they process it.
Even if they haven't processed it, the gun can be sold PPT at any time.

Heck, even if the gun was illegally imported (seller took possession from his father in Oregon), the PPT will not be rejected.

If YOUR background is clean and the gun was not reported stolen, your DROS will clear.


I suspect there are "issues" with the seller and you may want to look elsewhere. Be careful.

ke6guj
08-31-2011, 7:37 PM
I understand about CA to CA residents but if this was from out of state it would have had to go thru an ffl right?
right, and since it went through an FFL it is already registered to the seller when he picked it up. Tehre was no need for him to register it again using the intrafamily form.


When you say mess up do you mean possibly kicked back? At this point my only concern is the trans not getting kicked back, once it's drose'd to me the doj can figure out it's own paperwork bs as far as I'm concerned.I doubt it will be kicked back. CADOJ does not normally cancel DROSes for issues with who it was registered to before the PPT was started. They only care that the registration end up in the buyer's name, to get it back "into the system".


I would be concerned, because if they process the IF form after it is DROSed to you, it might not be considered registered to you once they update the AFS records with the info from the IF form. And that can bite you if the handgun is ever stolen, confiscated, or if you are ever charged with illegally carrying a concealed handgun that is not registered to you (mistakes happens and suppose that a loaded handgun gets put back into a case when you are shooting with family/friends). That mistake is a felony due to IF form screw up vs. a misdemeanor if it is properly registered to you. DO you want to have to argue in court that CADOJ's records are wrong? Will you have the info to fight that mistake in the future, say 10-years from now?

I have no idea, this is what seller is telling me, that the form has been submitted but not processed, if it wasn't necessary I have no clue why it was done.because the seller didn't know the law. They read the CADOJ and saw that form, and didnt realize that it isn't needed for transfers that are processed through an FFL. CADOJ doesn't expect an interstate intrafamily transfer to go through an FFL because CA law doesn't require it, even through federal law does require it.

Cokebottle
08-31-2011, 7:43 PM
I would imagine they will reject the IF since the father is an OR resident.

Then again... $19 is $19, and another gun in the system is another gun in the system.

It'll probably rubber stamp through.


I'd wait 6-12 months, then pull a query of guns registered to me, and if it's not on the list, take steps to correct it (document what's happening now so nothing is forgotten).

titus75
08-31-2011, 7:44 PM
right, and since it went through an FFL it is already registered to the seller when he picked it up. Tehre was no need for him to register it again using the intrafamily form.


I doubt it will be kicked back. CADOJ does not normally cancel DROSes for issues with who it was registered to before the PPT was started. They only care that the registration end up in the buyer's name, to get it back "into the system".


I would be concerned, because if they process the IF form after it is DROSed to you, it might not be considered registered to you once they update the AFS records with the info from the IF form. And that can bite you if the handgun is ever stolen, confiscated, or if you are ever charged with illegally carrying a concealed handgun that is not registered to you (mistakes happens and suppose that a loaded handgun gets put back into a case when you are shooting with family/friends). That mistake is a felony due to IF form screw up vs. a misdemeanor if it is properly registered to you. DO you want to have to argue in court that CADOJ's records are wrong? Will you have the info to fight that mistake in the future, say 10-years from now?

because the seller didn't know the law. They read the CADOJ and saw that form, and didnt realize that it isn't needed for transfers that are processed through an FFL. CADOJ doesn't expect an interstate intrafamily transfer to go through an FFL because CA law doesn't require it, even through federal law does require it.

Ok, but what about the dros showing it going from seller to me? And also isn't there a voluntary registration deal offered by doj, firearm ownership record I guess it's called, would that put it in my name? Or how about this? Seller calls doj and says stop don't process the form, tear it up.

ke6guj
08-31-2011, 7:51 PM
Ok, but what about the dros showing it going from seller to me? you're assuming that CADOJ will see that they are trying to process an IF form for something that was already DROSed to someone else. I don't think their system is sophisticated enough to catch that.


And also isn't there a voluntary registration deal offered by doj, wouldn't that put it in my name?

yes, there is a VolReg form available if you want to voluntarily register something you own. it is not for you to take the handgun from him in a dealerless transfer and then register it yourself using the volreg. In order to comply with the law, you are supposed to do a PPT transfer at a dealer.

basically, but submitting an IF when he didn't need to, he added a lot of extra crap to the deal. How it will turn out if you did a PPT while the IF is pending, we don't know. We can only suggest that you wait til the IF is processed before you PPT if from you because the AFS records might get FUBAR'ed.

Or how about this? Seller calls doj and says stop don't process the form, tear it up. sure, he can try. I don't know if they will do that. call them and tell them that he filed the IF form by mistake, that it is already registered to him via the DROS he already did at the dealer. See what they say.

titus75
08-31-2011, 7:56 PM
you're assuming that CADOJ will see that they are trying to process an IF form for something that was already DROSed to someone else. I don't think their system is sophisticated enough to catch that.



yes, there is a VolReg form available if you want to voluntarily register something you own. it is not for you to take the handgun from him in a dealerless transfer and then register it yourself using the volreg. In order to comply with the law, you are supposed to do a PPT transfer at a dealer.

basically, but submitting an IF when he didn't need to, he added a lot of extra crap to the deal. How it will turn out if you did a PPT while the IF is pending, we don't know. We can only suggest that you wait til the IF is processed before you PPT if from you because the AFS records might get FUBAR'ed.

sure, he can try. I don't know if they will do that. call them and tell them that he filed the IF form by mistake, that it is already registered to him via the DROS he already did at the dealer. See what they say.

arrrrghhh, excedrin time:( , I'll advise seller to try to get doj to rip it up form, although I have some serious doubts if they will do that.

gotsig
08-31-2011, 8:17 PM
Why even mess with the interfamilial transfer? If I lived in OR I could sell you a handgun, send it to a CA FFL, get it DROS'd and go thru a 10 day wait and the gun would be yours.

It's an off roster pistol.

titus75
08-31-2011, 8:17 PM
You are the buyer?

If so, the seller was given some bad information and is forwarding that to you.

If the IF is submitted, that's it. You don't hear from the DOJ after they process it.
Even if they haven't processed it, the gun can be sold PPT at any time.

Heck, even if the gun was illegally imported (seller took possession from his father in Oregon), the PPT will not be rejected.

If YOUR background is clean and the gun was not reported stolen, your DROS will clear.


I suspect there are "issues" with the seller and you may want to look elsewhere. Be careful.
Whoops little misunderstanding here, its OR off roster, not Oregon, It came in from Nevada, and yes I'm the buyer.

bruss01
08-31-2011, 8:30 PM
Thats what I thought, but I called doj and asked point blank "does the IF from have to be submitted into your system or computer or whatever the hell you wanna call it before this handgun can be ppt'ed" and I was told yes otherwise it will kick back, I wanted to say wait a minute that doesn't jibe with PC but the lady was already giving me an attitude.

It might be one of those procedural things.

You are legally OK as far as the law goes.

BUT... they have an office "flow" of forms, procedures, computer systems etc that is just running slow due to short staffing and under-funding, and they have to dot certain i's before certain t's can be crossed. As far as I can see, it's simply a case of the government machinery turning slower than the "consumer" of those services would like - which they can get away with because you can't simply take your business elsewhere. When's the last time you dealt with the DMV? They're pretty much the same boat. People were getting pulled over that had paid their registration simply because the paperwork hadn't gone through all the channels yet, and in the meantime their registration lapsed.

That's government, it's how it works. You must be young because it has always been that way and likely always will be that way. That's one reason why a lot of us here favor smaller government, because there's nothing they can take over that they can't manage to do in an insufficient, half-hearted way.

Librarian
08-31-2011, 8:41 PM
But just to be clear....

For an interstate intrafamilial transfer, the gun goes from out of state to the CA-FFL, and then the DROS and 10-day wait happen. Intrafamilial handgun transfers are exempt from the Roster.

No OPLAW form is required and none should be submitted - DROS takes care of the technicalities.

After the 10-day wait, the handgun may be sold PPT, also exempt from the Roster.

Cokebottle
08-31-2011, 8:41 PM
Whoops little misunderstanding here, its OR off roster, not Oregon, It came in from Nevada, and yes I'm the buyer.
Okay.... but Oregon/Nevada, no difference.
The interstate transfer needed the FFL and that satisfied 100% of the legal requirements.

An Intrafamilial Transfer form indicating a California recipient and Nevada transferor SHOULD be rejected as an illegal transfer under California and Federal law.

ke6guj
08-31-2011, 8:49 PM
An Intrafamilial Transfer form indicating a California recipient and Nevada transferor SHOULD be rejected as an illegal transfer under California and Federal law.

but it probably won't since it isn't a violation of CA law to do a dealerless intrafamily transfer between an NV transferor and a CA recipient. And CADOJ will tell you if you wish to do such a transfer to just fill out the intrafamily form, apparantly not aware that it is a violation of federal law.

titus75
08-31-2011, 9:04 PM
You must be young because it has always been that way and likely always will be that way.

Nooooooo, just naive I guess.........Actually I can remember a time when the DMV wasn't so bad, last week I was there it was like going thru customs in a third world country, thanks for the help , it's always appreciated, I guess I'll just chalk it up to that old adage: All good things (especially OR handguns) come to those who wait.