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View Full Version : Legality of owning and carrying an ASP in CA


Pat Riot
08-31-2011, 11:56 AM
Does anyone know the surrounding owning and carrying an ASP in CA?

john.t.singh
08-31-2011, 11:59 AM
It is illegal


California Expandable Baton Laws
2007 Dangerous Weapons Control Law 12020 thru 12040 Unlawful Carrying and Possession

ARTICLE 2. UNLAWFUL CARRYING AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison: (1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

Pat Riot
08-31-2011, 12:06 PM
I don't see baton listed there...

Bruce
08-31-2011, 12:07 PM
Yes and no.
The snake, yes.
The baton, no.
;)

WDE91
08-31-2011, 12:08 PM
Parts kits
Registered ASP's
AOW ASP's

Markinsac
08-31-2011, 12:10 PM
Illegal - they fall under the "billy" classification.

The only way to even buy one in California is to be a LEO or a security guard with current guard card and baton card.

the big ravioli
08-31-2011, 12:15 PM
I have seen many of these at gun shows and other websites that will ship it to you no problem. It is illegal but you can still get your hands on one without being a LEO or any other form of security.

robcoe
08-31-2011, 12:16 PM
If you want to legally carry and ASP, make sure it's one of the V. aspis species. The expanding batons are illegal, but the reptile I think is legal, and if you hit someone with it probably a pretty good defensive weapon.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Vipera-aspis-aspis-2.jpg

cbaer5
08-31-2011, 12:24 PM
wow looking at that list its very clear to me now.

if you want it its illegal.

1911su16b870
08-31-2011, 12:25 PM
Security guards with baton card and PC832 sworn are allowed to have batons.

strangerdude
08-31-2011, 12:25 PM
Illegal for any baton, If you're security you can only have it when going to and coming form work.

safewaysecurity
08-31-2011, 12:30 PM
It's illegal but if they find it in your house they would be crazy to try and prosecute you for it.

jaandrade3rd
08-31-2011, 12:41 PM
Interesting thread. Seems odd that it would be illegal to possess a baton but yet legal to possess a handgun or any weapon that can be used for lethal force. Was there a pre-ban or registration period prior to 2007 for people who happen to have such forbidden items?

CSACANNONEER
08-31-2011, 12:48 PM
Interesting thread. Seems odd that it would be illegal to possess a baton but yet legal to possess a handgun or any weapon that can be used for lethal force. Was there a pre-ban or registration period prior to 2007 for people who happen to have such forbidden items?

2007? Where did you come up with that date? They have been illegal since I was a little kid in the 70's. I don't remember before that. I just remember my dad destroying a lead filled sap and a lead filled billy after he left the local PD reserves and before he became a federal LEO. He destroyed them because, they weren't legal anymore.

jaandrade3rd
08-31-2011, 1:22 PM
2007? Where did you come up with that date? They have been illegal since I was a little kid in the 70's. I don't remember before that. I just remember my dad destroying a lead filled sap and a lead filled billy after he left the local PD reserves and before he became a federal LEO. He destroyed them because, they weren't legal anymore.

I was referring a date mentioned earlier in the thread.

California Expandable Baton Laws
2007 Dangerous Weapons Control Law 12020 thru 12040 Unlawful Carrying and Possession

Librarian
08-31-2011, 1:34 PM
I was referring a date mentioned earlier in the thread.

California Expandable Baton Laws
2007 Dangerous Weapons Control Law 12020 thru 12040 Unlawful Carrying and Possession

Ah. That is the title the DOJ uses to publish the latest revisions to the PC regarding weapons - but it includes the whole set, as 'everything in effect for 2007' not just 'new things for 2007'. DOJ puts out a new version every year, eventually.

The billy/baton/ASP thing is considerably older than 2007, but I'd have to go to Lexis to find out when that bit was added to PC.

And, this question is getting to be an FAQ. See also http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=268952

CSACANNONEER
08-31-2011, 1:41 PM
I was referring a date mentioned earlier in the thread.

California Expandable Baton Laws
2007 Dangerous Weapons Control Law 12020 thru 12040 Unlawful Carrying and Possession

Gottcha

hornswaggled
08-31-2011, 5:19 PM
Wow, they mentioned shiruken AND nunchaku? The ninjas have clearly won.

But I noticed Sai and Enter The Dragon-style claw blades aren't mentioned. Maybe there is hope.

Andy Taylor
08-31-2011, 8:12 PM
I don't see baton listed there...

They call it a billy.

Andy Taylor
08-31-2011, 8:18 PM
Security guards with baton card and PC832 sworn are allowed to have batons.

They do have to have a baton permit and a guard card. They do not have to have taken PC832 or be sworn. When I took the 832 course in 2003, batons were not taught at all. Handcuffing and Firearms were the only "tools" that were taught during the class.

swilson
08-31-2011, 8:26 PM
I've been told by an officer that it's considered a billy, that the traditional and the collapsable are considered the same type of weapon, and also said that if a cop catches you with one you're in big trouble. Probably has the same reputation among law enforcement, deserved or not (and probably not), as brass knuckles.

Citizen 14
08-31-2011, 8:31 PM
The insanity of the weapons laws in CA make me shake my head.

Ubermcoupe
08-31-2011, 8:40 PM
The insanity of the weapons laws in CA make me shake my head.

You are definitely not the only one:facepalm:

BlackLoTuS
08-31-2011, 9:26 PM
After seeing this list I must conclude that obviously the people making these laws are retarded (nunchaku & shuriken?!?) And that they would have banned firearms totally if not for 2a...

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Ron-Solo
08-31-2011, 11:49 PM
It can also be filed as a felony and you could lose your gun rights forever.

Having carried a baton for the last 33 years, and used it many times, my first choice is pepper spray 99.9% of the time. More effective, you don't have to get as close,and a lot less work. :D and less probability of serious or permanent injury to the suspect. Another point to remember, any weapon you have, could be turned against you.

I <3 pepper spray!

Anchors
08-31-2011, 11:55 PM
It can also be filed as a felony and you could lose your gun rights forever.

Having carried a baton for the last 33 years, and used it many times, my first choice is pepper spray 99.9% of the time. More effective, you don't have to get as close,and a lot less work. :D and less probability of serious or permanent injury to the suspect. Another point to remember, any weapon you have, could be turned against you.

I <3 pepper spray!

Good point as usual, Ron-Solo.
I used to carry a baton before I was 21 (in Arizona, legally).
I had to flip it open once and had to use it once (two different times).
It either won't work as well as you think or will work better than you intended it to. Either way is unacceptable.

I feel much more comfortable with my pepper spray and Kershaw, because the level of force being used is much easier to distinguish. YMMV.

Pred@tor
09-01-2011, 12:06 AM
Well out here I have a license to carry a concealed pistol but yet ironically I am not legally allowed to carry a switch blade... lol Its not Just CA.

Anchors
09-01-2011, 12:11 AM
Well out here I have a license to carry a concealed pistol but yet ironically I am not legally allowed to carry a switch blade... lol Its not Just CA.

Wow. Just looked up MO. You guys have a lot of place restrictions and signs have force of law? Bummer :/

KelVarnson
09-15-2011, 3:35 PM
The statute says:

"...commonly known as a... ...billy"

Yet you do a Google search on "billy" and a collapsible baton doesn't show up. Is there an expanded version of the statute, or an addendum or something somewhere? It boggles my mind that they can declare something illegal without specifically naming it by its most common name (baton, collapsible baton, ASP).

Or, is there case law or something?

I don't want to be a test case, but this would be a perfect SD weapon when walking my dog (for other dogs). I carry pepper spray, but sometimes it's windy. I don't want to be like the guy around the corner that carries a big club when he walks his dog. An ASP would be so much more discreet.

On edit: I should have read the FAQ Librarian posted FIRST. Very informative. Apologies...

jwkincal
09-15-2011, 3:49 PM
The club would be illegal, too. The earlier posters whom mentioned that only the 2A prevents the complete banning of firearms is correct. The DWC laws were designed to make EVERYTHING illegal. Knives of all kinds would be on the list as well were it not for the unions I am sure.

A Sheriff's deputy that I know recommends a baseball bat--with ball and glove in a backpack or shoulder bag. At least that way you have an out. The people you see walking their pets or themselves while carrying a 9-iron are felons. Food for thought.

green grunt
09-15-2011, 3:51 PM
so............would my cold steel walking stick with the skull head be a NoNo under the law ?

mej16489
09-15-2011, 3:58 PM
so............would my cold steel walking stick with the skull head be a NoNo under the law ?

Even that's a gray one...it's made and marketed as more then simply a walking-stick or a cane.

Technically all the people walking their dogs while carrying a golf club are a felony waiting to happen. Everyone knows people carry stuff like that for self-defense...99% of the population would even admit it if asked...but because its 'socially acceptable' charges are rarely brought down.

creekside
09-15-2011, 4:02 PM
Does anyone know the surrounding owning and carrying an ASP in CA?

PC 12020. No.

creekside
09-15-2011, 4:08 PM
The statute says:

"...commonly known as a... ...billy"

Yet you do a Google search on "billy" and a collapsible baton doesn't show up. Is there an expanded version of the statute, or an addendum or something somewhere? It boggles my mind that they can declare something illegal without specifically naming it by its most common name (baton, collapsible baton, ASP).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/billy



Or, is there case law or something?


Please see attached PDF.

I don't want to be a test case, but this would be a perfect SD weapon when walking my dog (for other dogs). I carry pepper spray, but sometimes it's windy. I don't want to be like the guy around the corner that carries a big club when he walks his dog. An ASP would be so much more discreet.

And so much more illegal. Sorry.

I know security officers who have baton permits who have been hassled (in one case, arrested) for having a baton in the back of their car when not actually driving home to/from work.

SwissFluCase
09-15-2011, 4:12 PM
Even that's a gray one...it's made and marketed as more then simply a walking-stick or a cane.

IIRC you need a doctor's note to bear a cane. :facepalm:

Technically all the people walking their dogs while carrying a golf club are a felony waiting to happen. Everyone knows people carry stuff like that for self-defense...99% of the population would even admit it if asked...but because its 'socially acceptable' charges are rarely brought down.

Carrying a gun without a LTC was viewed the same way once. I predict tougher enforcement of these laws just like the enforcement of concealed firearms laws are today.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

KelVarnson
09-15-2011, 4:23 PM
I know security officers who have baton permits who have been hassled (in one case, arrested) for having a baton in the back of their car when not actually driving home to/from work.

Thanks. Yikes. I gotta find a new state :(

I was walking by a local park a few years ago, and they were getting it ready for some event. A few LEO's were helping with that. One saw a styrofoam cup lying on the ground, and deployed his ASP to pick it up and fling it in the trash bin. That left a lasting bad impression with me.

SwissFluCase
09-15-2011, 4:41 PM
I wonder how many incidents like this it took to get the various "street weapons" laws we have in this country:

http://media-3.web.britannica.com/eb-media/58/124358-004-DB370236.jpg

Regards,


SwissFluCase

creekside
09-15-2011, 4:46 PM
Security guards with baton card and PC832 sworn are allowed to have batons.

PC832 has nothing to do with BSIS licensed security or batons. BSIS won't even accept it as equivalent to security training.

The PC 832 course is entry-level for exercising limited police powers without a full basic academy. Probation officers, park rangers, fire investigators, sheriff's security officers, etc.

SanPedroShooter
09-15-2011, 4:48 PM
What is that? Union rally? Its funny how fast the hero's change to villians...

SwissFluCase
09-15-2011, 4:56 PM
What is that? Union rally? Its funny how fast the hero's change to villians...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Teamsters_Strike_of_1934

I seriously think most of our weapons laws come from politicians seeing pictures like this. I also think the pictures of shopkeepers armed with AK47s inspired the AWB.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

dvcrsn
09-15-2011, 6:16 PM
so............would my cold steel walking stick with the skull head be a NoNo under the law ?

I frequently carry their African walking stick==but as a white 50 year old with a bad knee I can document with the VA--the LEOs pretty much leave me alone--and they have for the last 10 years. Also--I should have thought about this before==why not carry 4 to 6 D cell Maglite

diginit
09-15-2011, 6:51 PM
It can also be filed as a felony and you could lose your gun rights forever.

Having carried a baton for the last 33 years, and used it many times, my first choice is pepper spray 99.9% of the time. More effective, you don't have to get as close,and a lot less work. :D and less probability of serious or permanent injury to the suspect. Another point to remember, any weapon you have, could be turned against you.

I <3 pepper spray!

+10 for the pepper spray. Your assailant will cry like a baby saying "why did you do that?"...Like DUHHH...
Pepper spray is good Unless they have Military or washed out of LE training, Then, IMO, you had better have a CCW or fast feet. Every situation is different. The assailant may be armed. If with a knife or club, run away and spray wildly as he chases you. If with a gun, Hand him an empty wallet. Keep your cash in your hip pocket... Never in your wallet.

ubet
09-16-2011, 10:56 AM
Carry a sword that is only sharpened on one side. Then you can use the spine of it, or hack the threat up with the sharp end, problem solved.

OT, my wife started giving me grief when I started carrying a little fixed bladed knife around. I kindly told her, if she kept up on me about it, I would go and buy the longest sword I could find and carry that. No more grief about the knife....

Librarian
09-16-2011, 11:15 AM
Carry a sword that is only sharpened on one side. Then you can use the spine of it, or hack the threat up with the sharp end, problem solved.

OT, my wife started giving me grief when I started carrying a little fixed bladed knife around. I kindly told her, if she kept up on me about it, I would go and buy the longest sword I could find and carry that. No more grief about the knife....

You do recall, I hope, that you may not carry either the sword or the "little fixed bladed knife" concealed ...

Ron-Solo
09-16-2011, 12:02 PM
Carry a sword that is only sharpened on one side. Then you can use the spine of it, or hack the threat up with the sharp end, problem solved.

OT, my wife started giving me grief when I started carrying a little fixed bladed knife around. I kindly told her, if she kept up on me about it, I would go and buy the longest sword I could find and carry that. No more grief about the knife....

Yeah, that's not good advice.

KDOFisch
09-16-2011, 12:35 PM
Don't forget of course, that asps are...

http://jakemcmillan.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/61092074.jpg?w=400
VERY DANGEROUS

Aldemar
09-16-2011, 12:44 PM
Glad I saw this thread....I've got a PR-24 in my safe from when I needed a guard card. Think I'll take it to the radial-arm saw this weekend!

Funny, my guard card is long expired but the public records still show the baton cert is valid.

Edit: If I keep it after cutting it in two, is that considered "constructive possession?":43:

jwkincal
09-16-2011, 12:47 PM
You do recall, I hope, that you may not carry either the sword or the "little fixed bladed knife" concealed ...

concealed, or at all in LA.

Kestryll
09-16-2011, 12:49 PM
IIRC you need a doctor's note to bear a cane. :facepalm:

Nope.

I have needed a cane on several occasions, sprained ankle, arthritic hip joints, etc., and have taken mine everywhere even on airplanes.

My cane is a Combat Masters cane.

aklover_91
09-16-2011, 1:22 PM
concealed, or at all in LA.

IIRC, as per state law, concealing a fixed blade in California is a felony.

The felony bit is what I'm fuzzy on, it could very well just be a misdemeanor.

Point is concealing a fixed blade of any length (or concealing an open folder, if the blade is extended it counts as fixed) is illegal.

jwkincal
09-16-2011, 1:32 PM
Yes, it is a felony to conceal a dagger in CA. The PC specifically exempts open carry.

It is a misdemeanor to carry one exposed in Los Angeles, that's why there are a bunch of big-folder fans in various parts of this forum. The sword and/or knife as mentioned in a previous post will get you some unfriendly attention in the city of LA.

POLICESTATE
09-16-2011, 1:49 PM
Staff. It's better for reach in terms of pushing away rabid ankle-biters and snakes and of course acts as a cane - better since you can use two hands for support :D

I never have found a staff I liked enough to carry around with me though.

POLICESTATE
09-16-2011, 1:50 PM
Don't forget of course, that asps are...

http://jakemcmillan.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/61092074.jpg?w=400
VERY DANGEROUS

That's a cobra.

POLICESTATE
09-16-2011, 1:51 PM
Glad I saw this thread....I've got a PR-24 in my safe from when I needed a guard card. Think I'll take it to the radial-arm saw this weekend!

Funny, my guard card is long expired but the public records still show the baton cert is valid.

Edit: If I keep it after cutting it in two, is that considered "constructive possession?":43:

You could always burn it, just don't do it on a spare the air day.

mdimeo
09-16-2011, 1:53 PM
It is a misdemeanor to carry [fixed blade] exposed in Los Angeles, that's why there are a bunch of big-folder fans in various parts of this forum. The sword and/or knife as mentioned in a previous post will get you some unfriendly attention in the city of LA.

As will a "big folder" in L.A. 3" limit IIRC (maybe 2.8"?)

Big folders don't violate CA state law, but many localities ban them, including L.A.

I have a big folder for every day, and a shorter one for traveling, which is legal in most places. When I don't know the local laws, it's fully concealed with fingers crossed.

GillaFunk
09-16-2011, 1:56 PM
Damn. I got one of these when I was a Marine Securtiy Guard when I was stationed at the US Embassy in N'Djamena, Chad. I have itin the door pocket in my truck. I guess I may need to move it

I know I have my baton certification card..and can probably find my guard card somewhere...

Stupid California weapon laws..

ubet
09-16-2011, 6:41 PM
You do recall, I hope, that you may not carry either the sword or the "little fixed bladed knife" concealed ...

Yes I know it has to be fully exposed, and stays that way. It is a felony to conceal it. Their is no state law on the length though.

ubet
09-16-2011, 6:42 PM
Yeah, that's not good advice.

Would you care to elaborate, as long as their is no length limit where the op lives, its not illegal. So, I am not sure why it would be bad advise, hassled you probably will be, but breaking a law, nope. SO, that being said, seems to me its good advice.

Curtis
09-16-2011, 8:32 PM
I was just talking about the ASP laws. I ordered a tamping rod and was thinking it might me something good to keep in the truck....as an engineering tool.

Tamping Rod (http://www.humboldtmfg.com/showitem-1490.html)

Jason P
09-16-2011, 9:33 PM
Before long it will be illegal to have a big... wait better not say it, they may add it to the list.

Ron-Solo
09-16-2011, 10:27 PM
Would you care to elaborate, as long as their is no length limit where the op lives, its not illegal. So, I am not sure why it would be bad advise, hassled you probably will be, but breaking a law, nope. SO, that being said, seems to me its good advice.

If you look at many of the county and city ordinances, there is usually a size restriction on fixed blades, even for open carry. Some people do things like this based on the advice provided here, and find themselves in hot water needlessly.

I'll stick with my original advice, and suggest pepper spray. It is very effective.

lhecker51
09-17-2011, 10:51 AM
It is illegal


California Expandable Baton Laws
2007 Dangerous Weapons Control Law 12020 thru 12040 Unlawful Carrying and Possession

ARTICLE 2. UNLAWFUL CARRYING AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison: (1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

Wow! Exactly what defensive weapons are legal that do not require a permit or license?

Regarding safety in the work place, California is the safest place for thugs to work. When will you guys understand that they would not resort to violence if you just hand over the d**N wallet? Why provoke a criminal to violence by defending yourself? They have a right to a safe work place.

We have come a long way regarding work place safety by limiting the strength and size of pepper spray, outlawing any defensive weapon that could be used to batter a thug, etc.. If we could just outlaw all knives like in the UK we would live in a safe utopia.

In other states, thousands of children are orphaned each year due to this disturbing trend of work place violence through use of barbaric self defense weapons. Remember that thugs are victims too due to their disenfranchisement and lack of opportunity that force them into their current occupation.

lhecker51
09-17-2011, 11:00 AM
....I'll stick with my original advice, and suggest pepper spray. It is very effective.

Due to California size and strength laws, pepper spray is not very effective and just about useless against multiple targets and a firearm. I will agree that it is better than a feather pillow, or nothing at all. To me, California legal pepper spray is a joke and a false sense of security. One must ask their legislator: Why does Cali regulate the size and strength of pepper spray? Why are many defensive weapons illegal?

Thugs train as well. Many wear glasses to avoid direct eye contact.

lhecker51
09-17-2011, 11:06 AM
I frequently carry their African walking stick==but as a white 50 year old with a bad knee I can document with the VA--the LEOs pretty much leave me alone--and they have for the last 10 years. Also--I should have thought about this before==why not carry 4 to 6 D cell Maglite

If the walking stick was made with a purpose of striking in defense, it could be construed as illegal. We live in one of the most insane states. Criminals have far more rights than law abiding citizens and the system is set up to protect the criminal from the law abiding citizen through some of the most insane anti-defense laws in the country.

Patrick Aherne
09-17-2011, 11:17 AM
Due to California size and strength laws, pepper spray is not very effective and just about useless against multiple targets and a firearm. I will agree that it is better than a feather pillow, or nothing at all. To me, California legal pepper spray is a joke and a false sense of security. One must ask their legislator: Why does Cali regulate the size and strength of pepper spray? Why are many defensive weapons illegal?

Thugs train as well. Many wear glasses to avoid direct eye contact.

I've sprayed folks with California OC and I disagree. The reason that California laws seem so bass-ackwards is that most of them were written in 1872 when highwaymen and other "low-class" ruffians were likely to carry slung shots and the like, while gentlemen carried a pistol. Ergo, only a misdemeanor to carry a loaded firearm and a felony to carry a footpad's weapon.

scarville
09-17-2011, 11:42 AM
so............would my cold steel walking stick with the skull head be a NoNo under the law ?
Possibly. I know one fellow who claims his Cold Steel crook cane was confiscated. He told me the reason occifer friendly gave was the rubber tip had a brass ferrule under it turning the cane into a weapon.

Ultimately, the effect of all "dangerous weapons" laws is to disarm people. This makes it easier for the parasites -- official and unofficial -- to suck the lifeblood of productive citizens.

green grunt
09-17-2011, 12:01 PM
[QUOTE=scarville;7168384]Possibly. I know one fellow who claims his Cold Steel crook cane was confiscated. He told me the reason occifer friendly gave was the rubber tip had a brass ferrule under it turning the cane into a weapon.

I guess I will have to change the head of my "walking stick" , ( bad knees and V.A. approved to use a cane )
lots of golf coures near by....guess I'll change to the golf ball looking head ... and with a rubber tip (no brass..etc..) I should blend in better...:)

joefrank64k
09-17-2011, 12:11 PM
If you look at many of the county and city ordinances, there is usually a size restriction on fixed blades, even for open carry. Some people do things like this based on the advice provided here, and find themselves in hot water needlessly.

I'll stick with my original advice, and suggest pepper spray. It is very effective.

Ron-Solo is right-on-the-money with this. In addition to his previously mentioned "cons" for using a baton in a defensive and/or arrest situation, is the "Rodney King" factor.

Ever since that infamous case, it just plain looks more "barbaric" to the average John Q Public when you are striking someone with a baton than when you are spaying them with pepper spray. I know I rarely took my PR24 out of its ring, much less used it, after that. And when we were finally authorized to carry the ASP, I was one of the first in line for the in-service. It was MUCH more convenient to carry (and run with) the ASP.

And now that everybody and their mother has a video recording capability on their mobile phones, I wouldn't recommend anybody use a baton in-lieu of pepper spray.

Ron-Solo
09-17-2011, 1:25 PM
Due to California size and strength laws, pepper spray is not very effective and just about useless against multiple targets and a firearm. I will agree that it is better than a feather pillow, or nothing at all. To me, California legal pepper spray is a joke and a false sense of security. One must ask their legislator: Why does Cali regulate the size and strength of pepper spray? Why are many defensive weapons illegal?

Thugs train as well. Many wear glasses to avoid direct eye contact.

This is so much fail it isn't funny.

10% pepper spray, which is what LE carries, is highly effective and legal for the public to use and possess. Don't buy the crap sold at 7-11 or the car wash. Go to a LE supplier and get it.

You don't have to get it directly in their eyes. A face hit will take care of business. I've used it many times, and directed it's use as a supervisor even more times.

spgripside
09-17-2011, 1:36 PM
As will a "big folder" in L.A. 3" limit IIRC (maybe 2.8"?)

Big folders don't violate CA state law, but many localities ban them, including L.A.


Wrong, as long as your folder is carried concealed in L.A., it can be any size.

lhecker51
09-17-2011, 4:48 PM
This is so much fail it isn't funny.

10% pepper spray, which is what LE carries, is highly effective and legal for the public to use and possess. Don't buy the crap sold at 7-11 or the car wash. Go to a LE supplier and get it.

You don't have to get it directly in their eyes. A face hit will take care of business. I've used it many times, and directed it's use as a supervisor even more times.

I will bet that the size of pepper spray, 2.5 oz, a citizen can carry is less than what an LEO can carry. Regarding the effectiveness, there is a failure rate of up to 15% in the following report:

http://www.nist.gov/mml/analytical/organic/pepperspray.cfm


I was deployed to Somalia and due to our ROE, we were initially restricted to the use of non-lethal methods to control ARMED rioting crowds. Now I understand you are a retired LEO with a billion years of experience so I will share mine (I only have 22 years of experience):

We had several civilians show up at a UN food distribution center that we were providing security for. The crowd got way out of control when they realized there was only so many bags of rice left. We had to use pepper spray on them for our safety and the safety of the UN workers. It did work for some, but not all. Many of the civilians turned out to be part of the Aideed militia and many were on a drug called Khat. When we hit them with the pepper spray, it did not stop them and only made them much more aggressive. Although none of them were armed due to a security check before they could enter the distribution point (we learned the hard way), they still posed a significant risk. On another note, we had several canisters fail right out of the packaging. I do not like pepper foams as they are not as effective against those wearing GLASSES. Spray is more effective as it tends to infiltrate the eyes better than foam will if one is wearing glasses.

In order for us to use pepper spray, we had to go through the same training you did and were exposed to the effects. Since I was not on any kind of drugs, it was quite effective under IDEAL conditions. I NEVER want to go through that again.

The problem I have with pepper spray that is limited to a tiny canister is that you only get one chance. How many shots does an LE sized canister contain? Again, the container size that a civilian can carry is limited to 2.5 oz.

You claim that my data is "full of fail" whatever that means. I say again: Pepper spray is of no use against multiple targets. Like fire extinguishers, one must ensure that it is not expired or lost it's pressure. You must also consider the training of the person using it. What I stated is absolutely true regarding strength and size.

I know it is effective when hit directly in the eyes. The mucus membranes of the nose and the mouth are effective but not to the degree of the eyes. The pepper spray that landed on my face had NO effect whatsoever so I am not sure what you are getting at regarding a good face shot being effective unless it hits eyes, nose membrane, or mouth. Since you used this on the job and were trained, you should know this. Only if it migrates from the face to the eyes or other sensitive area will it be effective and that is a BIG maybe.

Ron-Solo
09-17-2011, 11:49 PM
Our duty spray was a 3 oz and my off duty is only .68 oz. I found it to be plenty. I've used it against individuals and crowds. Usually all you have to do is hit the leader, ad the sheep don't want to play.

The fail is the comment that the public can't carry the same as LE. They just can't carry the larger ones.

I never said it was fail safe, just a better option than the illegal carry of a baton. Some people on drugs are not affected, just like baton strikes. The Rodney King incident is a prime example on how someone on drugs does not subdue easily.

You say is is of no use against multiple targets. I have seen it stop fights between 20-30 inmates in their tracks, indoors and out.

I have had very good results with pepper spray.

Liberty1
09-18-2011, 9:19 PM
Carry On! In Placer Co. http://volokh.com/2010/12/18/california-trial-court-holds-second-amendment-protects-nunchakus/

adrenalinemedic
09-18-2011, 10:30 PM
The only way to even buy one in California is to be a LEO or a security guard with current guard card and baton card.

Can you source this?

I bought a 21" ASP from Sac Uniform about a year ago. Didnt even check my ID for the credit card. I was in street clothes, and hadn't shaved in a couple of days, either.

They didn't even bat an eye.

aklover_91
09-18-2011, 10:34 PM
Can you source this?

I bought a 21" ASP from Sac Uniform about a year ago. Didnt even check my ID for the credit card. I was in street clothes, and hadn't shaved in a couple of days, either.

They didn't even bat an eye.

Every once in a while you'll see a store selling switch blades and butterfly knives or one that has an AR pistol wit a forward pistol grip in the display case.

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's legal.

KelVarnson
09-22-2011, 11:37 AM
Just because it happens doesn't mean it's legal.

True. Finding/buying one is not the problem:

http://www.amazon.com/Fury-Tactical-Expandable-Baton-26-Inch/dp/B0024IQE1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316720063&sr=8-1

gunsmith
09-22-2011, 4:44 PM
Glad I saw this thread....I've got a PR-24 in my safe from when I needed a guard card. Think I'll take it to the radial-arm saw this weekend!

Funny, my guard card is long expired but the public records still show the baton cert is valid.

Edit: If I keep it after cutting it in two, is that considered "constructive possession?":43:
yup , I was told that you never have to requal your baton cert. but you do need a current guard card to go with it.